simple solution to hijacking problem

[1965GTO]

I guess the security experts at the FAA and the airlines don't have a very high IQ. All you have to do is put security doors on the flight crew cabin and no one can hijack the plane right? Am I wrong?


[Note: This message has been edited by Mr 5 0]

[Mr 5 0]

Nothing is that simple, although your security door idea is not a bad one, at that.

All a hijacker has to do is jump up, hold a gun or a knife to the head/neck of a flight attendant or child passenger and demand access to the flight cabin. They will not be refused access, security door or no security door.

Remember, 'political' hijackers are generally fanatics, often religious, and think that if they die killing an American for Allah, they go straight to valhalla. We are not dealing with rational people who say "Oh, the flight door is locked. Guess I'll forget this hijacking and order a drink". We wish.

That said, the more security, the better, but we shouldn't have to give up our freedom of movement or travel to accomodate terrorists.
I don't need some security officer asking me 'for my papers' every time I want to go somewhere. Instead, we should be eliminating the terrorists. We are in a war and all bets are off. If we cannot, as a people, find the courage to strike back at those who wish to kill our civilians, including women and children, then dance in the streets for joy to celebrate those American deaths, then we are lost. The time for talk and diplomacy is now over. Time for military action is here.

True security is found in strength.
Let's show some, now.

[rbatson]

I agree 110% with that. Time to flatten the middle east and declare it the 51st state.

[46stang]

rbatson: lmao. the 51st state too funny!
Mr.50 i agree totally. it's time to kick as$ and take names. they want to use our technology against us(planes) lets give them a sample of some real technology.
as for airport security it's not hard to make a knife from a hard plastic material and walk through metal detectors. metal detectors are obsolete, imo. they need those xray machines you walk past so they can scan you totally, and carry on baggage shouldn't be allowed! jmho.


------------------
96 stang,ported 99 heads, 01 bullit intake, 99 cams,Steeda power pullies,Steeda timing adj.,Kirban adj.reg.,Pro-m 87,24#inj.,Twin 57mm t/b,BBK longtube headers,Bassani x-pipe w/cats, Dynomax ultraflow catback,home depot ram air, k@n,
373's,cobra brakes,fms spings, lakewood 90/10's and 50/50's tri-ax shifter.
271.3rwhp
302.3rwtq
best et 13.80

[MiracleMax]

5.0,wherever politics and religion are concerned people are seldom rational.

IMO I dont think a massive counterstrike is the answer either. What would going out and bombing a country into oblivion prove (nothing except were terrorist with bigger and better bombs). I think we should sort through the mess and figure out who did what then give those foreign states suspected of containing the terorist a chance to assist, if they dont want to help then they should be declared enemies of the state and we take whatever action is nessecary to minimize the threat of something like this happening again (only a dummy would think this couldn't happen again no matter what we do). through the use of military action.

That said, this is for the pricks with the screwed up agenda that thought up this BS plan.

"KEEP PHUCKING AROUND AND BLOWING SH!T UP! WWIII IS JUST HANGING AROUND THE CORNER AND YOU DONT HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO MOVING A LARGE GROUND FORCE TO THE US OF A. SO GUESS WHAT DUMBASS! ROCKS AND SAND MAKE FOR PISS POOR COVER"

[stevstum]

I think they have been to soft on all the terrorist groups. When ever one of them does somthing they just prosicute the guys who did it. I think they should round them up and hang them and put it on all TV stations all over the world. Let all the world now that you don't mess with the US.

------------------
Steve Stumbaugh

89 LX 5.0 5sp.
Removed air silencer
Motorcraft 8mm wires
Autolite platinum plugs
BBK O/R h-pipe

[1965GTO]

If you are a pilot and a hijacker has a weapon demanding to get in the cockpit you are not going to let them in! The only thing they can do is kill people in the passenger area but they cant get in and fly the plane.

[myred86gt]

I'm trying to understand how people can start
dancing around for joy when a large amount of
civilians get killed. I guess these people don't even care if they put their own children in harms way as they did in Iraq!
I think it's time for a big golf corse in the
sand. Get rid of the troublemakers for good
otherwise they won't give up until everybody
is dead!
I don't believe in violence but I also don't
believe in stupidity and ignorance!

86 gt, flows, prochamber, mac shorties,
3.73s, cobraclutch, kirban fpr, hd T5,
explorer intake, speeddensity ECU

[rwhite65]

not the answer, but a good solution is the cockpit door.

we have to look at the big picture here. A terrorist grabs a woman child, any other thing you can think of. If he gets in the cabin, everyone might die. If the pilot gets the plane to the ground, then that gives the police the chance to enter the plane. When the plane is in the air, the pilot is the only one who can help the passengers.

I hate to say this, but a few lives for 100? a 1000?

Also, what about some security? A while back there was a big thing about air rage and how they are training flight attendants control tactics. Please!!

The airlines are going to have to look into security that are in plain clothes randomly placed throughout the plane. In the air things are much more risky then on the ground, we need to approach it that way.

As for the retaliation...they killed our civillians in a time of peace. I will not stand for my mother, your mother, or anybody else to be killed due to this senseless B.S.

Do you know how many emergency people died today?

We are a super power, that is why they targeted us today. It is time we respond and show them just what kind of power we have. I say we take the middle east and their damn oil too. tired of their sh##.

I will gladly park my squad car and take one for this country as long as I can put a bullet in one of their rag heads. (ok that was not politically correct, but felt good.)

[smokedchevy]

I believe the terrorist attacks were probably from the Palestinians. Everyone in the East hates the Israelis, and we're the only country helping the Israelis by giving them money and weapons. That's probably why we're always a target of attack from Palestinian radicalists. This one really hit home, and I think it's time to show them who's boss of this planet called earth.

[Unit 5302]

The Palestinians hate us, but they are not well organized enough to pull this off.

I have to agree with having armed security guards on flights from here out. Perhaps actual police officers. One in back, one in front. They do nothing but monitor the passenger area for those type of events. Not only will it cut down on air-rage, but it would make hijacking nearly impossible. Orders to shoot to kill any terrorist, regardless of hostage situation. This cannot happen again.

[84LX89GT]

Originally posted by 1965GTO:
[B]I guess the security experts at the FAA and the airlines don't have a very high IQ. All you have to do is put security doors on the flight crew cabin and no one can hijack the plane right? Am I wrong?

B]
...here's an interesting question. What if the flight crew ARE terrorists. I also believe that there should be some heavy duty doors to the cockpit and some system to where you can't open the doors to the cabin from the time you take off until you land....not much anyone can do now about this catastrophe.

[Mach 1]

Its easy to armchair quarterback after the fact.

Heavy, vault like doors are not practical on an aircraft for the same reason you dont want your mustang to weigh in at 4000 lbs.

Armed guards? So how hard would it be for a couple terrorists to kill an armed guard or two?

The pilot being the only one to help the passengers in the air is absurd comment. The crew is a few people. The passengers have to defend themselves! If two terrorists are threatening you with knives, and taking over the aircraft, what do you do? Hide in the bathroom and make cell phone calls? Especially after it becomes apparant that they intend to fly these planes into the ground? No, you take action. 50 passengers can certainly take over two terrorists, but making it happen is understandably easier said than done.

Even heavy doors can be broken down. Its not a bank, its an aircraft.

There is no simple solution to this problem, and something we will have to live with if we want to have air travel.

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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?151)

[bigwhitecobra]

Thank you Mach1 !!! I'm glad someone brought this to forefront. I can assure you that if I were ever on a plane that was in this type of situation, I would gladly start opening up some whoop *** . If I get taken out, so be it.

I feel sorry for the ones that died in the flights, but they could have done alot more than evidenced.

Wounds heal, chicks dig scars, and all that macho BS. It's time we wake up form our collective slumber, take some freaking testoserone pills, and act like f'n Americans.

Just my $0.02

[Snakeman]

think they'd dance better with gelled gasoline on 'em?

have the doors on the outside. no access. no worries!



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Rob Wegner
90LX (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?627)

[Mr 5 0]

Interesting responses from everyone.
I would like to reply to a few of the main ideas presented and offer my views.

As for the pilots of an airline being protected behind some bullet-proof door; that won't work for the reasons already stated.
The pilot has the safety of the passengers as his first responsibility. If a terrorist threatens to kill a passenger every five minutes until the pilot opens that door...or the terrorists will shoot a hole in the plane big enough to lose pressure in the passenger cabin; the pilot has no choice but to open the cockpit door. He can't ignore the fact that all could die if he tries to barricade himself in the cockpit...he would look cowardly, too. The plane lands, but all the passengers are dead? I don't think so.

I agree with bigwhitecobra that a planeful of people, probably at least half meale, could jump three terrorists with small knives or razors. Not as easy as in the movies, though.
No room to move in a plane, the terrorists usually grab a female and use her as a shield (you have to be prepared to see her throat slit and watch her die in order to attack the terrorists) and you need the men to be at least a bit coordinated and rush the terrorists all at once. The terrorists know this too, and usually keep everyone in their seat or otherwise separated.
I'm not saying this isn't possible, just that overcoming two or three terrorists in the confines of a plane is harder than it sounds.

I do not, by the way, advocate 'bombing a country into oblivion', as was mentioned by 'Miracle Max'. I do advocate using our military intelligence and finding the camps and bases of these terrorists, then destroying them and those who inhabit them.
I can guarantee that some of the bases will be placed in areas will a high civilian population, which means that some, possibly many civilians will be killed in the process of destroying a terrorist house, building, camp, whatever. We have to understand that this is now a war, and not be so dainty and squeamish about killing those who would kill us, without hesitation.

Attempts to draw a moral equivalent between defending ourselves from terrorist murderers and the actions of the terrorists themselves is absurd and should be rejected. I do.

Nations that harbor, support and even encourage people who they know - repeat- they know will murder innocent people sitting at a desk in New York or a child playing in a street in Israel or elsewhere, should expect to be harmed by the military of the countries they willingly allowed terrorists to infiltrate and attack.
The destruction of the World Trade Center, the attack on the Pentagon and the attempted but failed attack on Camp David all prove that we are in a war. Many middle east countries support the groups behind the terrorism and they should be put on notice that if we find terrorists and/or bases, whatever, in their country, they will be totally destroyed. If these countries wish to cooperate with us, fine, if not, they must accept the consequences of that decision.

I agree that we were attacked because we support Israel and always have supported Israel. We will continue to do so; the attacks on the U.S. have made any thought of abandoning Israel unthinkable, especially since we now have a responsible President.
As the Japanese did when they bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941, the Arab terrorists have truly awakened a 'sleeping giant'; America.
Americans do not take intimidation well, especially when thousands of our citizens are killed at their place of business. As we now know, we are at war. We will do what is necessary to win. Blood will be shed, there will be loss of life and property on both sides. The terrorists will not stop attacks on America, especially when we retaliate.
More Americans will die. One or more of us, sitting in a restaurant, driving down a highway, at our place of work, may be killed in the future. No one is immune.
The price of freedom is high, but we cannot allow 'criminals with a cause' to murder us at will, with little to no price to pay.

It won't be pretty and I hate the thought of it, but we can't go back and we cannot allow this to stand, or we are truly doomed.
I trust American and Americans will prevail.

[crewzin]

I know, how bout using nitrous. Ya, just hit a button and the passenger compartment floods with laughing gas. Then the bad guys can be taken out. Seriously though, maybe cameras so that the pilots can see whats going on and then using a safe short lived sleeping agent designed to act quickly. Mount it in the cabin. Walk back and disarm the bad guys.

[1965GTO]

MR 50 I believe you are incorrect. If pilots are ordered not to open the door for any reason during flight they will not. If you don't trust them then the doors can be made where they will not open. Or as someone else said seal it completely and put the doors on the outside. It my be hindsight but you can be sure now that it has been done, someone will do it again ,if you don't change something. And yes they can build a seperation between the cockpit and passenger compartment that is not going to be able to be kicked in. Or even shot through.

[1965GTO]

MR 50 you may be right about armed guards on the plane although arming everyone on the plane might be better. And I do agree it is time to kill some muslems all over the world to show them we are not taking anymore of there crap.89lx89gt its not likely that one of our aircrews would be terrorists. It is possible some terrorists could get a plane of there own and use it as a weapon.Mach 1 you dont need heavy 12" thick steel doors. How could they get through a 1" of aluminum or titanium with plastic knives and boots? As far as the passengers overtaking the terrorists it looks like they did in one of the four airplanes. They haven't said how many muslems were on each aircraft probably because of political correctness not wanting us to hate a certain type of people. I haven't hated any type of person but have known for quite some time that the extremist muslems are my enemy.

[bada$$lx]

Knives, boxcutters etc etc are all aloud o flights guys! If the blades are under 4", they're OK. It's true, I carried one on myself just about 2 months ago at Laguardia Airport. Also, w/in the last year, I've flown in NY, MI and FL, and out of the 6 flights/connections, I was only ID'd once......ONCE - that's part of the fukin problem. Another problem is they pay the security people and the baggage handlers minimum wage - they're easily "bought off" and they are far from thorough in their searches. I've been to Italy and Germany in the past 2 years.......anywhere outside the U.S. they have armed guards/soldiers w/ rifles and machine guns at the airports......it sounds like a good idea to me! It's time to kick some terrorist a$$!

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'90 LX 5.0;12K original miles (no sh*&);3.55 gears; March pulleys;Edelbrock Performer Heads;BBK 1 5/8" equal length shorties;MSD 6AL ignition w/ blaster 2 coil;FMS E303 cam;Pro-M 75mm MAF;BBK 70mm TB; Eibach drag-launch spring kit;Southside welded subs;9" K&N cone filter charger;Hurst shifter;Cervini's 3" turbo hood;A/C delete; gutted cats;2 chamber Flomasters;Corbeau racing seats;FMS 30# injectors;JMS chip; Holley 190lb fp;TFS track heat Intake (12.299 @ 113 - 1.78 60')

[Mr 5 0]

65GTO:

I believe you misread my post or missed by point. I'll attempt to clarify my position.

I didn't say anything about unbreechable security doors to the flight deck. I agree that that could be done, although the weight could be a problem and it's not a solution in itself as you seemed to imply.

What I said was that a flight crew barricaded behind secure doors while crazed - and now angry and frustrated terrorists - start murdering passengers, one by one, or worse yet, having a big enough weapon to blow a hole in the side of the plane (or even a door or window out) would lead to instant depressurizing of the plane and then havoc and panic in the passenger compartment. A determined few terrorists could effectivly kill many of the passengers or render the plane unstable and posssibly unable to land safely.

As I said, this would result in a plane landing with an intact, unharmed flight crew and many dead passengers or possibly a wrecked plane. Not very feasible.
Add to that the fact that anything devised by man (like a secure door) is going to immediately have another group of men looking for ways to disable it, and they'll find it.

I agree that our airport security is lax and needs to be beefed up, quickly, but that won't totally solve the problem, although it won't do any harm, that's for sure. There is no quick, easy answer and no one is ever going to be totally 'secure' in the air or on the ground either, but we can try.

Our biggerst problem is our own attitude. We've grown weak and complacent as a nation. We elect boobs like Clinton to our esteemed Presidency and he makes a fool of both the congress and the American people and shreads the constitution in the process. Americans give him a high approval rating.

Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'. We worry more about homosexuals being comfortable in the armed forces than about building strength, loyalty and encouraging a sense of duty and honor into our young men serving the country as soliders and sailors. Now, it's just a job. I expect we'll have a soldiers union any day now. Collective bargining.
Sure, there are still real stand-up guys in the service, but they don't stay long and the officers are so afraid of their careers being stalled - or worse - they swallow all the PC B.S. and watch the services dwindle down in manpower and resolve, not to mention quality. If we ever have to fight a real war, not some fly-over war or a war where the enemy are so demoralized they surrender to TV crews as in Desert Storm, I'm worried. I hope I'm wrong.

Notice that with all the hours of TV coverage of this tragedy, no one has said "People will die for this outrage". No one has the guts to do so. I don't mean the President or some high elected politician; they have to be measured and calm. What I refer to are the commentators and newspeople. TV is dominated by the female perspective. The men are male models, little more. Attractive little things that wag their tails and yip but have no bite. The newscasters always focus on the immediate tragedy (O.K.) but then act as if it happened as some isolated incident with no real connection to anything else...like the near-war in the mid-east going on right now.
It's report, grieve, wring our hands and then, move on. Oprah is on at 4. She'll tell us how to have a better life. Right.
No real outrage shown..don't want to excite anyone. Grief councilors, etc are fine and needed, but where is the real sense of anger and resolve on TV. Not from those blow-dried women and men. No context either. It's sickening, and this is where America gets it's news....and often, it's attitudes.

As I've said in earlier posts; it's a war.
To Islamic extremists - and there are many - we are the enemy because we support (finance) Israel and always have. Without the U.S., Israel would have been destroyed decades ago.
These extremists see Israel as a rougue state, an illigimate country, an interloper. They want it destroyed and the Jews dead or at least, gone forever from the mid-east.
That will not happen and we will not stand by and allow it to happen. Of that I'm sure.

During the unending 'peace' talks last year, Barak gave Arafat the sun and the moon - everything Arafat said he wanted - and Arafat said "no". There will be no 'peace'. You can't negotiate with someone who wants to kill you - right now. The Arab Islamic extremists want to kill us - right now. We'll have to decide if we will smile and try to not think too much about it, or if we will fight back. That means blood on our hands and accusations of being murderers and worse from the liberal bleeding hearts who sympathize with the Palestinians and the extremists who plot to kill us in our offices and our markets, as they do in Israel every week. Can we deal with that? I wonder.

I don't expect 'Perky' Katy Coric or Diane Sawyer to tell us the truth and to show outrage over this massive attack on our country. No. Lots of sympathy for the victims, which is fine, but next week it'll be some story about how Bush didn't handle it right and how maybe we should cosy up to those folks who killed our relatives, friends and neighbors and show them 'we care'. Maybe then those Arabs will stop being mean to us. Please.

It's a tough situation. We took a very big hit and we look like pathetic fools for allowing this to happen. Now, we have to decide how to respond. I fear it may be all talk. Tough talk, but still just talk, with no action. I hope not. I hope we can do more than discuss how we can lock ourselves into flight cabins so the bad men won't get us and how strong a door we need to feel safe. That may be necessary for the moment, but I find it rather sad for the future.

As Ben Franklin once said; "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither".

[dinomite]

someone up there said that if someone was trying to hijack the plane, you don't let them, I agree with that totally, especially if the hijackers only have knives. I can tell you, that if I were on one of those flights, I personaly would have attacked them myself, and if all the passengers on the plane had (50 odd) they would have beat down the 4 so attackers. people have told me that the hijackers were intimidating the passengers/crew, which is bull. If that is the case, Americans are too wussy; they should have retaliated against their attackers.

Also, a good way to prevent terrorism is to arm/train the crew. they have talked about putting Marshals on the flights from now on.

[This message has been edited by Mr 5 0 (edited 09-12-2001).]

[joakim]

Europe are on YOUR side! It´s not a Country it must a organisation and Bin Ladin is the name we(Carl Bildt) talking about in sweden.

My english is to bad for the right words after this...We are atleast 300 000 000 people in europe on your side.

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Mustang GT -87 14,61/95,59.
This june Richmond 4:10 and I love this gear...

[Mach 1]

Mr 5.0 - I have served in the military in this country in one status or another for 15 years. I can assure that we have nothing to worry about in a "real war". I have eye-witnessed first hand the weapons we have available to us in action.

We have so many military resources and different weapons available to us, that it is almost mind boggling.

We accomplish a "fly over" war as you put it because we can. Some of our nations best and most advanced aircraft wernt even used in Desert storm because they didnt need them.

Even if by chance the Air Force couldnt gain air superiority (which would never happen in the first place), the US Army has massive amounts of firepower available.

I witnessed in person a few weeks ago a bomber drop a unguided 500 pound piece of concrete(practice bomb) from 20,000 feet in high winds and hit a small truck on the target field dead center. Our allies to the north couldnt hit the same truck flying dead on, low altitude in american built FA-18 fighters.

How many countries can move thousands and thousands of troops and equipment anywhere in the world on a moments notice? I would guess none besides us.

Who knows, maybe Im wrong, but I really dont think we have anything to worry about in a real war.

Its the enemy that hides in the shadows (terrorists) that are tough to fight, as we all just saw.

God Bless America

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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?151)

[Unit 5302]

How hard is it to take out two armed police officers with a couple terrorists carrying box knifes? Pretty fin hard. It's not even how hard it would be, it's the the deterrance factor. Police work much better as a deterrant than interrupting crimes.

So Mr 5.0, you would argue barracading the doors and having the passengers fend for themselves is a bad idea? A few thousand people who died at the World Trade Center might disagree with you. You want people to fight back? They have to have a reason and be cornered. Like if they know the pilot can't help them or give the terrorists what they want. I would have beat the damn terrorists till they quit moving. It was rumored they had mace, I don't care, spray me with it, you're next box cutter boy!!!! Hurting me would only piss me off more. If the people on board that flight would have rushed the terrorists would it have been considered a victory to Bin Laden? In that case what would have been the passenger count? 2-3? If they had succeeded in killing every passenger on board those flights and nothing else, would it have been a victory? Hell no. Years of planning, training,resources, and funding went into this.

[90'5.0 Conv]

Personally, I don't see how any of this will eliminate terrorist from public aircraft. You need to realize that these people are very determined and wil find any vulnerabilities in anything we do. It is really unfortunate but also inevitible. If they couldn't do this, they would find another way to get our attention. Remember, these people don't care about there own lives, much less ours.
There is always a risk involved with being the super power of the world but the nice thing is that we can determine what happens now!
God Bless all of the people and families involved. It is times like this that we see just how stong AMERICA is.

[Mr 5 0]

Unit:

It's fine to talk about how tough you would be if you were on a hijacked plane and the hijackers had nothing more than small knives and box cutters. I'm sure you would do exactly as you say you would. Good.

The problem is that you are only one guy and I get the feeling that many of the passengers on those flights were middle-aged businessmen and women. They were not as tough or as brave as you are. They obviously were not going to attack two or three (probably) young, nasty-looking, screaming arabs waving knives in their face. They were not going to risk watching some young flight attendant have her throat slashed open and watch her life blood pour out on the floor because they made a move toward a hijacker. Ain't gonna happen - in most cases. Many were making cell-phone calls to loved ones, according to relatives. Shows you the mindset...no hope.

Understand that 99% of non-military men and women have never had an encounter with a real physical threat in their entire lives.
They have no idea how to react, they freeze or just wet their pants and very few people are black belts or as fearless as you are.

Under the circumstances we face now armed guards on all flights is probably a good idea and I never said otherwise, except to mention that it's expensive and that's why the airlines quietly stopped doing it many years ago.

Look, if you want to have a bullet-proof, inpenetrable cockpit door on every plane, fine. However, if you do that and the pilot is unavailable - no matter what, you must - must - have armed 'Sky Marshals' on every single airline flight in the United States every hour of every day. No easy, not cheap.
If you don't do that, passengers being 'on their own' should trouble occur is absurd.
Very few men - much less women - are going to board a plane knowing that if a terrorist pulls any kind of weapon you're probably dead because there is no one to help you and the pilot can't be reached behind his bullet-proof cockpit door and he ain't comin' out. That might deter 'serious' hijackers but not crazies who just want to kill someone.

Now, all that may very well happen (impenetrable cockpit doors/Sky Marshals on every single flight 24/7) and that's fine with me. I just believe that all this macho talk about 'taking out' any terrorists that would dare to show up on any plane you are on is natural, understandable, possibly true but basically just that; talk. No practical application for most people in the real world.


Mach I:

My remarks on the military are not based on personal knowledge, just casual observation via the media during past skirmishes and wars and comments I've read made by active duty military men on other (political) messageboards I visit. They are not as confident as you seem to be, but then, that may depend on where you serve, what branch and what type of work you do in the service.

As you must know, the military has been somewhat feminized and certainly downsized over the past decade. This is not good.
I trust our military will rise to the occasion if the need arises (and it will) but I'm a bit skeptical about overall capability, However, I defer to your personal knowledge of the military readiness and morale. Of course, I also pray that you are correct.

[RAGE_5.0]

Hey mach 1
why do u insult canada's army????
wow we don't have state of the art jets or any **** like that but i do know we have some of the best soldiers in the world
u can look back at certain battles in the world wars.....there is a reason why we were nicknamed the crazy canucks
read up on vimy ridge and u will find out why
I'm sorry but our country has better things to spend money on then jets, ships and smart bombs.......the biggest example is tyhe free health care,and from driving in michigan i would sya we spend a lot more money keeping the roads in good condition

I am sorry if i pissed anyone off but i don';t think that u should make comments like that considerinbg we will be the first country to go to war with u americans


JAMES

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Black 1990 gt cobra bonestock
not for long

[Stangin 88]

Since I am in the U.S. Marine Corps I find this web site very fitting:
http://elcochino6.tripod.com/laden.htm

We WILL get them!

[Old Guy with 87 GT]

you can do all you want to prevent somone from ever flying a friggen plane in a biulding,but all that will stop is somone from flying a ******* plane into a building....you won't stop peaple from thinking up other ways to assult us in horrible ways.....your dealing with human nature....we have the biggest badest millitary but that don't mean sht against human nature......this guy only proved that a few guy's with knives and some flight training can deal a solid blow to the biggest badest country in the world......human beings are smart creatures and it don't matter how big are millatary is .....we need to use our brains and find a practical way to deter more attacks.....what ever happend to the day's of america being the guy who walked softly but carry'ed a big stick......what we've become is a big idiot that carry's a huge club........we got this huge millitary but if we don't know where and how to use it then it don't do us any good....we have brains ,we need to use them.....i love this country and i think that those who caused what has happend should not go unpunished.....but not by swinging around our "huge club" blindly....but by finding a way to punish those who do this sort of thing in a way that will show the world what they really are ......if we just kill the men who caused this we will only make them marters in the eye's of those who believe in what they are standing for ......then there will be more that follow them ....and humans are smart, no matter how much protection we have on planes....our enemy's will only find another way to hurt us.........our reputation as an untouchable nation is no longer......we can punish the peaple who did this,we should punish the peaple who did this ......but the real challenge is to make our enemy's not wan't to attack us.and the only way to do that is to"earn" our enemy's "respect" ,not our enemy's fear or hatred

my 2 cents....

james

[bada$$lx]

It's very easy to "arm chair qb" on Monday morning! Could've, should've, would've.....it's easy to say how tough we are and what we would've done, but the fact is none of us know exactly how any of those people on those flights felt, one could only imagine scared out of their minds, wondering if they'd live another day to see/speak to their family and friends again. It's a given: airport security must be improved, air marshalls on all flights should be a standard, and impentrable cockpit doors should be installed on all planes. If the terrorists knew they couldn't get into th cockpits, there'd be no sense in killing stewardess' or other passengers, cause they'd just have armed soldiers waiting for them on the ground when they landed. Granted that would only stop hijackings, but it'd be a step in the right direction.

[1965GTO]

You are correct mr 50 when you brought up bill clintin our worhtless expresident who did not believe in following the law and is partly to blame for these events. All we can do now is move forward though and it is time to stop talking and start bombing. I don't know if our present president knows what needs to be done but if he does he needs to do it fast before a bunch of morons start coming up with alternatives that won't bring justice.I started this thread talking about stopping one new problem by making it impossible to get to an aircrew while in flight and it must be done. But i realize they will think of other ways to do harm. We just have to make them realize that it will cost them more than they are willing to lose.

[rwhite65]

mr. 5.o in your very, very long replies...you have said one thing that is extremely accurate...our nation as a whole has become very, very non confrontational.
People in a whole do not like to fight, I see this every day.

I would like to defend some of my ideas, which have been distorted by some.

let me say first...this is only a solutions to problems in the air...If I had the answers to terrorism in any form....I would not be doing what I do for a living...and would make much, much more money than I do.

The idea of a "bullet" proof door or whatever anyone wants to call it is not all that hard to make a reality. The weight...so we do not carry 200 pass. now, only 180. Now their luggage is not on the plane, even less weight.

The idea that if they can get to the cockpit, the pilot can some how bargain for tpass. lives is wishfull thinking. Yes peopole will die in the pass compartment because the pilot will not open the door. Somebody said that the pilots can not save the pass. lives. Last I knew the pilot does fly the plane. WHen the #### hits the fan, the plane can now be brought down by the person who can do it safely. The pass will most likely die in this situation. But if the pilot remains in control of the plane, some may live, and the plane does not become a missile. The arabs become pissed and kill all pass. on the plane with box cutters before it lands, unlikely.

I never said ARMED guards. MAybe I did not clarify this, but I was getting at plain clothed MArshals...gaurds....whatever. I carry a gun every day, but I am not sure I would want it in the plane....anybody familiar with what is called a bean bag gun?? This is an option....very effective. OR no guns at all, just trained professionals that are randomly placed throughout the plane...would be a step in the right direction.

Somome said we need to gain their respect....I wish that could happen....but I think most will agree that you can not make everyone happy. This is demonstrated in this forum right now.

You can not please everyone...and when the U.S. is a sbig as we are, some will always hate us.

[Mach 1]

Unit-
These trained terrorists are sneaky. It would be simple to walk past a guard on an aircraft and slice his throat. If case you havent flown lately, aircraft are not very rooky, and im sure the guard is not going to be sitting there with his weapon drawn all the time. They will become complacent, and would be easy victims.
This is not hard to see.

Rage 50 - I wasnt dissing your army, I think you misunderstood me. I was just commenting on our military, and I just saw a recent exercise in person, and I was Impressed with what a certain bomber we have was able to do.

At the same exercise, there were Canadien Forces Pilots flying f-18a's that were missing the target on an easier angle of attack. It wasnt a rip on you or your fine C.F.'s , just a comment to put things in perspective. I like Canada, you guys do it right up there.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?151)

[347MOM]

I totally agree with what Badass says,"No one knows what those passengers were thinking or feeling at the time." I want to say something,"On one of planes they did retaliate against the terrorist and made the plane crash and miss their target,so I dont think that all americans are wussy's."


347's '91 BLOWN AND STROKED DARK GREEN CONV. MUSTANG

Girls can too's August "Mare of the Month" (http://www.mustangworks.com/girlscantoo/features/HeatherBrown/)

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Topless In Texas]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0:

65GTO:
Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'.

What I refer to are the commentators and newspeople. TV is dominated by the female perspective.

I don't expect 'Perky' Katy Coric or Diane Sawyer to tell us the truth and to show outrage over this massive attack on our country.


Okay, IMO..and with the UTMOST RESPECT 5.0(Really, I mean that!): http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif

Why is it everything negative said here is female related? Define Feminized?(why put demoralized and feminized in the same sentence?) http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/confused.gif and keep in mind, just cause were female, dont mean we all think alike! We're not all wussys, and that DOES NOT mean we're Dykes either! Get my a$$ on T.V. and I"ll tell them what I think,IMO of corse!!! http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif

Some of us women, given the chance would love to go kick some arab a$$.(most likely they will be smaller than us anyways!!) they just carry more artillery!!

Most of you might not be aware of this cause you dont frequent Female Power, but, MustangMom2K's husband was IN THE PENTAGON WORKING when that plane hit. She knew nothing for hours, and I knew nothing till late that evening whether he was alive or dead. Although we have never met personally,(of corse, we were supposed to this WEEKEND for the poker run, that is all up in the air now!) I feel like I HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY VIOLATED!(Cant imagine how MOM must have felt at the time, it's unconcievable.) At first we were just grief stricken over the destruction of the WTC,the loss of innocent lives and the intrusion of the Pentagon, which holds the utmost sectretive information of our Armed forces (which I feel has been downplayed) but now we are PISSED!!! I wish you guys could've been in on our IM conversation tonight!. (me,MOM & 347) As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't compare the weaknesses to the 'female' gender. We feel as strongly as you do, we just look a little different physically!!(I hope so!) and again, this is my opinion only.

Just speaking for myself, AND meant w/ no disrespect to you, I dont feel its necessary to put a 'feminine' label on everything negagative. I'm not a feminist, by any means,(Yu will NEVER SEE ME burning my bra), but there are those of us unusual women that not only have a passion for cars, but for our country and feel the same way most of you guys do! So, In all due respect, we might cannnot bench press what you can, but that does not make our feelings any less intense, or any more whimpy than ya'lls... http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif
And as for you Bada$$.....TWO THUMBS UP!!! I agree w/ you COMPLETELY!!!!!! I've walked thru the security at Hobby airport a number of times the last couple of months setting off thier security alarms EVERY TIME w/ my silver jewlery. But yet...we have people that look suspicious(or could be) and they walk thru security w/ plastic knives!!!!! WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? If they need to frisk everyone walking thru security then so be it. Obviously the metal detectors wont pick up stuff like that. To me its inconcievable that not only do we allow a highjacker to take over an aircraft, but 4 w/in ONE HOURS TIME?????? Someone had some good friends on the inside. So, for what its worth, 5.0, I'm not trying to piss yu off, just want you to know that some of feel as strongly as you do on this subject, and myself, dont feel like the women are always the weakest. Who Knows?? There might have been a woman or 2 on that airline in PA. that whooped some *** b4 it went down!! I hope so, and I know I speak for me, MOM and 347, if we were there, we would not have gone down w/ out a fight, if it would have spared innocent lives.

------------------
1994 GT CONVERTIBLE
TOPLESS IN TEXAS Girls can too's July "Mare of the Month" (http://www.mustangworks.com/girlscantoo/features/ChristineCaselli/)

Performance Red. Cold Air Ind.,K&N,H.P. Pulleys,OffRoad H-Pipe,Subframe Connectors,Flows,3.55,Light bar,Custom HeadRests.Lotta Chrome

[Mr 5 0]

Topless:

I assumed that any female reading my comments might be offended or at least annoyed.
I feel that I've used the term 'feminized' appropriately. I understand that others may disagree. Isn't America great?

Under the Clinton administration the armed services had most of the training norms brought down to whatever levels the female recruits could obtain, in most cases.
That's a fact and I don't find it a good thing for our armed services. Too much emphasis on attitudes, 'feelings' and PC nonsense that has little place in a fighting force. I've been in touch with many dedicated career military men who have decided to get out of the service after ten or more years because they don't like what it's become and the fear of saying 'the wrong thing' to a female soldier and being court-martialed or losing his chance at promotion. I call it military feminization.

It's an altering of the military in order to accomodate female soldiers and that is fine - to a point - but when a male soldier cannot depend on the female soldier next to him in a time of battle, that is dangerous and foolish. Not everything in war is pushing buttons, even in 2001. When a male soldier is afraid of saying 'the wrong thing' to a female soldier, that is awkward at best and makes serving with females a PITA, in my view.
These opinions come from online and actual conversations I've had with members of the armed forces. Basically, they say that everything changed when females came into the regular military and it's gone all downhill.
This is a result of the top brass bending over backward to please and accomodate females coming into the service and 'make them feel comfortable'. That, again, is fine - but when the physical differences are oblitered and ignored in order to let females 'pass', that isn't good for morale or future fighting these young women may have to face.


As for the female TV commentators; they tend to focus on the softer side of the tragedy, which I don't mind, but they never seem to addresss the context and many still act as if a plane crashed accidentally. They avoid the nitty gritty of the situation and so do most of the male TV newsreaders. I feel the TV newsrooms are feminized in order to attract women to watch TV news, which is understandable, but it also waters down the content.

Not that TV news is very good to begin with. I think it has a distinct liberal slant no matter who is giving it, but 'stars' like Perky Katie Coric really annoy me with their slant on the liberal view and the lack of real knowledge of many of the things she 'reports' on. Too much touchy-feeley for me.

I don't mean to be harsh, sexist or start a flame war, as I know that generalizing about gender or race or anything else is risky and offers the opportunity to annoy others and give the wrong impression. I accept that risk, as my history here on MW is one of welcoming and celebrating all of our female members. I applaud the women who buy, mod, tune and race Mustangs. You are very special ladies and you are now and have always been appreicated here.

My comments and somewhat negative views in prior posts address a general 'feminization' (as I see it) in the military and in the media. They do not pertain to any specific person (except Ms. Coric) and certainly not our Mustang ladies. You guys are the best.

My complaint is not about 'women' in general (I'm married to a very lovely, intelligent and capable woman) but about the military over-compensating to make women 'fit' in the armed forces instead of making the women fit the military a bit better. That's backwards.

The news commentators are less important, and many are quite competent as well as attractive, but the 'female' slant I see I find objectionable. I expect that if actual war broke out, many of them would be against it. Then again, maybe not.

It's just my observation, not an attack on womenhood, so please don't misunderstand my remarks on the subject. I appreciate yours.

[Unit 5302]

It's too bad the news is such a biased politically motivated bunch of crap.

They were calling Bush a shitty leader and a bad president and a coward because they got him off the ground right away and didn't fly him directly to the White House. They didn't care about the risks, just a political agenda.

As far as letting women into the military as soldiers that can't make the real cut, I think it's a joke. If you can't make it, you can't make it. There shouldn't be anybody crying about it, begging to change the rules.

[andy669]

I got an idea (you guys will love this! not.) How 'bout the next time we see a f'in raghead get on an airplane, we f'in shoot them!! Hey rwhite, I agree with you!! I dont give a sh!t about political correctness!! Thats half the reason we are in this situation. I've never been prejudiced against blacks or mexicans, but these ragheads must hang!! They have one agenda, defending their religion! They have been around for centuries and look how they live! They ride camels in the freaking desert! The United States is barely over 200 years old, and look how advanced we are. The number one killer in the world is RELIGION!!
All f'in ragheads must f'in hang!
andy

thats my opinion guys (somebody please tell me im wrong, i hope i am)

------------------
3 Black 94 GT Vert. AODE/TKO conversion, 3:73's, ported X-305's, GT40 manifolds, 75mm TB, 30lbers, PMS, 300 horse Top Gun wet kit, and all the other little stuff

[Vector]

Originally posted by Mach 1:

I witnessed in person a few weeks ago a bomber drop a unguided 500 pound piece of concrete(practice bomb) from 20,000 feet in high winds and hit a small truck on the target field dead center. Our allies to the north couldnt hit the same truck flying dead on, low altitude in american built FA-18 fighters.


Thanks for that unfriendly stab at our nations pride. What's the point of that demoralization attempt at Canada? To bolster your own bruised pride? You should very well know how much more superior Canada is in compared to you in terms of air to air ability, having won many many competitions. But theres no reason to point any of this out, we as part of NATO are here to help you, not compete against you.

[Mach 1]

Whats the matter with you touchy Canuks? Going through hockey withdrawl?

I didnt take a stab at your military? I simply made a comment about what I recently witnessed, to put in perspective what our high altitude bombers were capable of, which everybody already knows anyway from watching T.V. during the Gulf War.

And dont even start about you winning competitions. Maybe we havent won any Maple Flag exercises? Or maybe you havent? I really dont know what you are refering to, and dont care to get into a stupid debate over this anyway.

Our record speaks for itself.

Its not my fault your guys couldnt hit the target, as your own soldiers admitted to me as we watched the training exercise together.

Im not trying to flame anybody, including Canadas military. I know you guys participate and contribute to many of our military missions.

Peace.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?151)

[moponys]

check this out...freaky stuff
http://www.pierfishing.com/msgboard/pfmb.mv?forum=&module=view&viewid=26441&mode=all&row=



------------------
TFS twisted wedge heads, TFS street intake, Lunati cam .500/.510 218/226, BBK FPR, BBK shorties, BBK 70mm tb, Pro-m 75mm, ASP pulleys, FMS 3:73, Transgo shiftkit,Flowmasters, Bassani x-pipe, K&N FIPK, FMS 1.6 roller rockers, 9mm wires,24lbs injectors,
190lph fuel pump, MSD cap and rotor, 18" wheels w/street tires, JMS custom chip, Trickflow phenolic spacer. ETs soon to come...

[2FastLX]

I was thinking the same thing the other day about an impenetrable door to the cabin. But what I was thinking is that even the pilots couldn't open it. The only way the door could be opened was in the case of an emergency and could only be done via satellite from the ground. That would eliminate 2 things: The ability of the HiJacker to get to the cabin, and the abilty of the HiJacker to leave it up to the pilots who lives or dies on a plane. I think something along these lines needs to be on every commercial aircraft. Also, 2 very heavily armed guards standing at the front of the plane would do wonders especially if it were made clear to the passengers that these guards were to shoot anyone attempting to move from their seat for the first hour of the flight anyway.

------------------
Gunning for 12's!
http://www.indianastangers.com/2FastLX/images/msg_brd_logo2.gif (http://www.indianastangers.com/2FastLX)
Buy your parts here (http://www.mustangwarehouse.com)
ICQ# 42269241

[USMC302]

(Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'. We worry more about homosexuals being comfortable in the armed forces than about building strength, loyalty and encouraging a sense of duty and honor into our young men serving the country as soliders and sailors. Now, it's just a job. I expect we'll have a soldiers union any day now. Collective bargining.
Sure, there are still real stand-up guys in the service, but they don't stay long and the officers are so afraid of their careers being stalled - or worse - they swallow all the PC B.S. and watch the services dwindle down in manpower and resolve, not to mention quality. If we ever have to fight a real war, not some fly-over war or a war where the enemy are so demoralized they surrender to TV crews as in Desert Storm, I'm worried. I hope I'm wrong.)


LET ME SAY ON BEHALF OF THE MARINE CORPS, YOU ARE SO WRONG. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITMENT ARE. DO YOU NEED A HISTORY LESSON OF THE MARINE CORPS? I WILL NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DEBATE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS WHOLE SUBJECT EXCEPT TO SAY SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE MILITARY AND IT'S FINE SERVICE MEMBERS.


------------------
88LX NOTCH, 88GT, 95 GT.

[stoagman]

Why not arm the pilot and co-pilot? Most commercial pilots are prior service and are perfectly capable of handling a fire-arm. While we're at it, we can issue stun-guns and mace to the flight attendants to help subdued poorly armed hijackers or extremely unruly passengers. These seem like logical and simple solutions to the problem.
It isn't fair to suggest that the passengers or flight crews could have or should have done more to prevent this tragedy. Prior to Tuesday, how many times had hijackers used commercial aircraft as missles? Never. The smartest thing a hostage could do was cooperate. Normally the worst that happens is they end up at a different destination.
This was truly unprecedented.We can all second guess after the fact but these poor souls, as the rest of the world, never could have dreamed this sort of fate. The game has definately been changed.
It is now time to stand together, support our leaders in Washington and erraticate this scurge from the face of the earth. There is no way to coexist with villians of this magnitude. It is either us or them and I choose us. Benjamin Netenyahu said it best, "They (meaning the terrorists) have the will but not the might, the U.S. has the might but not the will". Do we finally have the will?

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by USMC302:
LET ME SAY ON BEHALF OF THE MARINE CORPS, YOU ARE SO WRONG. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITMENT ARE. DO YOU NEED A HISTORY LESSON OF THE MARINE CORPS? I WILL NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DEBATE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS WHOLE SUBJECT EXCEPT TO SAY SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE MILITARY AND IT'S FINE SERVICE MEMBERS.

Well, for one thing you have completely and utterly missed the point. The point was not to show lack of respect for the military. It was to show mistreatment of the military. As far as the Marines go, I was shocked and sickened at the score I could get on the ASVAB and get in. The projected test was so fricken easy it was crazy. The recruiter was totally shocked when I completed it 15min faster than he'd ever seen. He figured I was dumb as a rock and that I got them all wrong or left them blank. He said, are you sure you're done? You can go back and check the answers if you like. I got one wrong that I accidentally bubbled in wrong, I corrected it as he went down the list and told him why.

He told me what I needed to get it. Now the score is a 31. I was projected at 93 because of my 1 error, which I corrected. An F'in 31??? Please, don't tell me the military is a little hurtin for quality people. BTW They non stop recruited me for 2 more years.

As far as physical assesment tests, I can't say for sure because I don't know, but I would be willing to wager they're easier than they should be.

[Unit 5302]

Why not put a sealed door on the cabin, and carry Nitrous Oxide on board that can be pumped into the ventilation system or some other form of knock out gas? It would keep everybody out of it, including the terrorists until the pilots could land the plane.

Of course you could argue, maybe the terrorists would carry gas masks in their carry on luggage and access it. So as soon as the plane gets ready to taxi have the compartments lock electronically. Have better imaging systems at the xray machines as well.

In addition, a couple police on board, and tasers for the flight attendants located in password protected boxes should make it hard as hell.

How much additional cost there? A lot for the gas, obviously. A few thousand for a sealed cabin. For the electronic locks? A few thousand per aircraft. The Tasers are cheap. Having 2 armed officers on board? Maybe $300 per flight? Wow, an two or three dollars per ticket on large passenger aircraft. The smaller aircraft are much less wanted targets. They have short ranges, few hostages in comparison, and they can do much less damage.

[Mach 1]

I dont think a sealed cabin and some kind of knock out gas is a real good solution. Too risky. One little sealed flight deck leak and knock out gas(is there even such a gas to knock people out temporarily?) taking out the pilot would be a great risk.

Air planes fly through the air at tremondous speeds and altitudes, with a lot of stress on the airframe. This causes flexing. Like your uni-body mustang if you will. Aircraft are of a "uni-body" design style. They have to save weight for obvious reasons, and I would bet this is where the automobile industry got the idea for uni-body style framework on cars. Just like aircraft have had anti-lock brake technology that the cars are using now for a long time already.

Anyway, it would be hard to seal off the flight cabin so tightly to elimante the risk of gassing yourself.

I think the best idea I have heard is arming the flightcrews with guns or stun guns. This isnt the definitive answer eithier, but certainly a start. I guess then everybody would say the risk of an armed crew member goping whack-o and taking some people, or the fact of the high-jacker could obtain the weapon and use it againt them.

How about a stun gun with a code needed to arm it?

[2FastLX]

Do you really think you're not going to tell the terrorist the code if he has a knife halfway embedded into your throat or the throat of a small child?

"GIMME THE COD OR DIE!!!"

"Uh, no. I'd rather die than let you shock me"

http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif

------------------
Gunning for 12's!
http://www.indianastangers.com/2FastLX/images/msg_brd_logo2.gif (http://www.indianastangers.com/2FastLX)
Buy your parts here (http://www.mustangwarehouse.com)
ICQ# 42269241

[Mach 1]

Thats the point. He doesnt know the code, the crew does. Somebody on the crew zaps his butt while he has no defense.

If he slices somebodys throat before we get to him, tough crap. One dead is better than this tragedy.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT (http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?151)

[RAGE_5.0]

see mach 1 the thing is that if the 1 person died there would still be poeple saying that they could hae brought the plane down safely and the swat team could have went in a nd got them

i hate that kind of person they don't think rationly......


JAMES

------------------
Black 1990 gt cobra bonestock
not for long

[Unit 5302]

Respirators in the cockpit. Gas problem solved. Gas "Nitrous Oxide" It'll take a coule minutes to really take hold but it's odorless and colorless. They wouldn't know what was going on until they could no longer stand up.

That would obviously be a last ditch effort, after the stun guns/tasers were used. Some throw a stream of voltage like 15 feet. If the terrorist was holding a knife to a hostage, zap the **** out of both of them. Neither should experiance permanent injury.

In my example the terrorists would.

[LIST] Have to get concealed weapons on board. Have the weapons stored on themselves because they can't access luggage. Defeat 2 armed Police Officers Defeat flight attendants armed with tasers. Break through the sealed off cockpit door. Do it all before the gas takes effect.

Now obviously, this is kinda like stealing a car. If they are good enough, and they want your car bad enough, and they plan well enough, you really can't stop them. You can; however, deter them, and make it much much harder.

[rwhite65]

I think everyone has good ideas, I just wanted to point out some things.

Armed Officers, pretty good, i still think they should be plained clothed. Where are they on the plain, no one really knows (passenger wise)

Has anybody ever been trained with weapons of any kind? One of the most important rules to remember with any weapon, is that when you bring the weapon to the fight, you take the chance of losing it to the opponet, now they have a weapon that they would not have had.

I say this cause I am not sure your average flight attendant would want this responsibility nor be capable of handling some of these weapons. But everyone is definately on to something here.

I still say that the unbreakable door is the key. The too heavy argument just does not fly with me. You can make up for the weight in losing some of the planes capacity. For every passenger you lose, there went some luggage too.

Somebody made the comment about losing one hostage...and everybody saying that you could have maybe saved them. Maybe we could have, but did we save 199 lives in the process? When the plane gets on the ground, Swat teams have a chance of losing a hostage or two....or maybe more.

i think that the gas idea is pretty innovative, if it could be done. Having resperators in the cockpit would help be insurance that the pilots did not get gassed also.