Bad lifter? or loose rocker?

66 Racer · 10-28-2001, 10:11 PM

hey guys,

Well, recently my engine had developed this somewhat loud clicking, i was wondering if it was a bad lifter or just a loose rocker. it hasnt been rebuild, but the heads were about 2-3 years ago. Im thinking its a loose rocker, but i didnt know what to torque them to, i tightened them SLIGHTLY making sure there was still some play, then when i started it, the sound stoped for a few seconds, then back again.

LEt me know what you guys think, as well as the torque specs on the rockers.

thanks

---Anthony

------------------
Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

Dark Knight · 10-29-2001, 01:29 PM

I'd check to make sure it wasnt an exhaust leak 1st... sometimes they can sound the same...

------------------
84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer
3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties
stock cam, 1.7's
13.85@102.5
and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

Dark Knight · 10-29-2001, 01:35 PM

as for the rockers... are the heads stock?
if it has the stock positive stop rocker studs, you need to tighten them as fas as they go a torque.. if they arent, did you use lock nuts?

------------------
84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer
3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties
stock cam, 1.7's
13.85@102.5
and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

raven469 · 10-29-2001, 11:57 PM

my 73 mach 1 has the same exact problem, ive been told its the header gaskets, one time my gaskets blew so it would make a backfiring sound, so i had to double gasket that side but they still click, louder at more rpms right?? i hate this problem and it has bothered me for 2 years, some one has to have idea, you my just need one new gasket
hope i help
vince

mustangman65_79 · 10-30-2001, 05:20 AM

U might have the same problem I do. I'm going to replace my cam and timing chain. I belive it to be a lifter going out. For u, it might be a lifter pumping up too much and making valve noise. For me, I think I have a dead lifter that is not dropping down all the way, or it has a flat spot on it.

------------------
66' Mustang 2bbl 289 coupe, stock.
79' Mustang soon to be a 302-selling-
89' Bronco 351w
AIRMEN FIRST CLASS
KASPAR T. HOWE

David Fulford · 10-30-2001, 11:21 AM

Sometimes the only way to fix the header gasket problem is to buy new headers. If you've got old ones that have taken a couple of beating during motor swaps and what-not, the flanges can get bent and won't seal correctly. That's what I had to do.

------------------
1969 fast back; yellow; weld wheels; 302 roller with GT-40 heads; 3:55 gears; 5spd T-5; MSD 6AL; E-303; flows; Hedman headers; Holley 600;

Rev · 10-30-2001, 03:23 PM

I have to replace header gaskets every 6-12 months on my car. Usually after a few WOT runs at the track. For me, it's only a 1 hour or so job and about $15 for new gaskets. That's with Tri-Y headers. Ive done this 4-5 times now, so I'm just resigned to it I guess.

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph
1/4 mi.

Fostang · 10-30-2001, 05:29 PM

You guys ever try the copper gaskets. I know they sometimes tend to leak but thats because they require more torque to yield than paper ones. Those are the kind I use and reuse often with just a thin coat of silicone with no problems. Just a thought.

------------------
67' Fastback-Mean Temper
67' Coupe Under Construction
70' Torino Cruiser
84' Svo Original

Rev · 10-30-2001, 06:51 PM

Fostang, I have to use an open end wrench on several of my header bolts. No way to get a torque reading on any of them. I just torque them in as tight as I can get them with what ever wrench I can fit in.

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph
1/4 mi.

PKRWUD · 10-31-2001, 05:35 AM

The fact that it briefly went away after tightening the rockers tells me it's an exhaust leak. The valves won't fully close right off, and the explosion in the cylinder won't occur, thus, no noise. When the engine is cold, try "feeling" for puffs of exhaust around the header/head mating surfaces with your fingers. A new gasket and double checking the header bolts periodically should help.

Rev-
FYI: I'm sure you're familiar with the "ignition wrench" set that comes with most Craftsman tool sets, with thin open end wrenches, where one end is normal and the other opens at 90 degrees. Well, the 90 degree 3/8" wrench (or 7/16", depending on your header bolts), is a godsend when it comes to hard-to-get-to header bolts. You still can't torque them, but you know how tight to go. Anyway, that wrech allows for a greater turning radius, lessening the time and frustration that goes with installing and uninstalling header bolts! Dig through your tool box and try it! I know you'll be pleased.

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop

My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

66 Racer · 10-31-2001, 06:14 PM

Hey guys,

when im running at high RPMs i cant really hear the sound, just now i was listening for it when going through the mall, i think i heard it, but if it was an exuast leak wouldnt it get liuder with the RPMs? Im gonna check though, i had a loose bolt on the collecters, but i dont think it would make a noise, then again i didnt think it could from the head/header area either.

I'll check my headers, but i tightened them about a month ago.

Thanks guys, i'll keep you posted

------------------
Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

PKRWUD · 10-31-2001, 07:03 PM

An exhaust leak caused by a collector bolt missing would be noticably louder at high rpm's, but a leak at the header/head mating surface will be drowned out by the engine noise at high rpms. At least until it get's really bad. Also, just because the bolts are tight doesn't mean it's sealed. All it takes is to have one bolt loosen one time, and the damage can be done. A small tear in the gasket can form, and even after you tighten it, the exhaust pressure can eat through the new weak spot in the gasket, creating what will look like a crack in the gasket. Or, the header mating surface could slightly warp, so that even when the bolts are tight, they don't seal. Don't tighten any bolts yet. Try to feel for the exhaust leak with your fingers first. It will be easier to find if you leave the bolts alone. Once you find it, try tightening the bolts, and see if it goes away. If it doesn't, unbolt the header and replace the gasket. Make sure you completely clean all of the old gasket from the head and the header, otherwise you'll have another leak right away.

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop

My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

66 Racer · 10-31-2001, 07:38 PM

thanks,

that really explained it all, i hope thats it.

---Anthony

------------------
Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

Gearhead999 · 10-31-2001, 07:43 PM

Rev,

Have you tried "Stage 8" header bolts?? I use them and they keep the bolts from coming loose and blowing the gaskets.

A couple more that usually work...File the surface on the header where the gasket meets it. Make it FLAT. Also, you can cut the flange between the individual header pipes with a saber saw or sawzaw. This makes 4 seperate flanges on the head surface and they seem to contour better to the head.

Rev · 10-31-2001, 07:46 PM

Chris, I do use that exact ignition wrench that you referred to. It's a god send for a couple of the more difficult bolts. It's kinda hard to get a lot of torque with that little wrench, but at least I can tighten the bolt using it. Thanks for the input.

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph
1/4 mi.

PKRWUD · 10-31-2001, 09:24 PM

Great minds think alike...

...for more torque, try looping the box end of a 7/16" combination wrench (preferably a long one if you have it) into the open end of the ignition wrench. Adds leverage.

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop

My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

Rev · 11-01-2001, 08:16 PM

Gearhead, that's a great idea about separating the flange for the different ports. Hadn't heard of it before. Thanks.

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph
1/4 mi.

[This message has been edited by Rev (edited 11-01-2001).]

10-28-2001, 10:11 PM	#1
66 Racer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: West Covina, CA Posts: 77	Bad lifter? or loose rocker? hey guys, Well, recently my engine had developed this somewhat loud clicking, i was wondering if it was a bad lifter or just a loose rocker. it hasnt been rebuild, but the heads were about 2-3 years ago. Im thinking its a loose rocker, but i didnt know what to torque them to, i tightened them SLIGHTLY making sure there was still some play, then when i started it, the sound stoped for a few seconds, then back again. LEt me know what you guys think, as well as the torque specs on the rockers. thanks ---Anthony ------------------ Under Construction 66 Coupe -289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

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10-29-2001, 01:29 PM	#2
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	I'd check to make sure it wasnt an exhaust leak 1st... sometimes they can sound the same... ------------------ 84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.85@102.5 and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

10-29-2001, 01:35 PM	#3
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	as for the rockers... are the heads stock? if it has the stock positive stop rocker studs, you need to tighten them as fas as they go a torque.. if they arent, did you use lock nuts? ------------------ 84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.85@102.5 and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

10-29-2001, 11:57 PM	#4
raven469 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 5	my 73 mach 1 has the same exact problem, ive been told its the header gaskets, one time my gaskets blew so it would make a backfiring sound, so i had to double gasket that side but they still click, louder at more rpms right?? i hate this problem and it has bothered me for 2 years, some one has to have idea, you my just need one new gasket hope i help vince

10-30-2001, 05:20 AM	#5
mustangman65_79 My poor 79 RIP Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Suisun City, Posts: 2,320	U might have the same problem I do. I'm going to replace my cam and timing chain. I belive it to be a lifter going out. For u, it might be a lifter pumping up too much and making valve noise. For me, I think I have a dead lifter that is not dropping down all the way, or it has a flat spot on it. ------------------ 66' Mustang 2bbl 289 coupe, stock. 79' Mustang soon to be a 302-selling- 89' Bronco 351w AIRMEN FIRST CLASS KASPAR T. HOWE

10-30-2001, 11:21 AM	#6
David Fulford Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 193	Sometimes the only way to fix the header gasket problem is to buy new headers. If you've got old ones that have taken a couple of beating during motor swaps and what-not, the flanges can get bent and won't seal correctly. That's what I had to do. ------------------ 1969 fast back; yellow; weld wheels; 302 roller with GT-40 heads; 3:55 gears; 5spd T-5; MSD 6AL; E-303; flows; Hedman headers; Holley 600;

10-30-2001, 03:23 PM	#7
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	I have to replace header gaskets every 6-12 months on my car. Usually after a few WOT runs at the track. For me, it's only a 1 hour or so job and about $15 for new gaskets. That's with Tri-Y headers. Ive done this 4-5 times now, so I'm just resigned to it I guess. Rev ------------------ '66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph 1/4 mi.

10-30-2001, 05:29 PM	#8
Fostang Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Stockton, Ca Posts: 599	You guys ever try the copper gaskets. I know they sometimes tend to leak but thats because they require more torque to yield than paper ones. Those are the kind I use and reuse often with just a thin coat of silicone with no problems. Just a thought. ------------------ 67' Fastback-Mean Temper 67' Coupe Under Construction 70' Torino Cruiser 84' Svo Original

10-30-2001, 06:51 PM	#9
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Fostang, I have to use an open end wrench on several of my header bolts. No way to get a torque reading on any of them. I just torque them in as tight as I can get them with what ever wrench I can fit in. Rev ------------------ '66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph 1/4 mi.

10-31-2001, 05:35 AM	#10
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	The fact that it briefly went away after tightening the rockers tells me it's an exhaust leak. The valves won't fully close right off, and the explosion in the cylinder won't occur, thus, no noise. When the engine is cold, try "feeling" for puffs of exhaust around the header/head mating surfaces with your fingers. A new gasket and double checking the header bolts periodically should help. Rev- FYI: I'm sure you're familiar with the "ignition wrench" set that comes with most Craftsman tool sets, with thin open end wrenches, where one end is normal and the other opens at 90 degrees. Well, the 90 degree 3/8" wrench (or 7/16", depending on your header bolts), is a godsend when it comes to hard-to-get-to header bolts. You still can't torque them, but you know how tight to go. Anyway, that wrech allows for a greater turning radius, lessening the time and frustration that goes with installing and uninstalling header bolts! Dig through your tool box and try it! I know you'll be pleased. Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

10-31-2001, 06:14 PM	#11
66 Racer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: West Covina, CA Posts: 77	Hey guys, when im running at high RPMs i cant really hear the sound, just now i was listening for it when going through the mall, i think i heard it, but if it was an exuast leak wouldnt it get liuder with the RPMs? Im gonna check though, i had a loose bolt on the collecters, but i dont think it would make a noise, then again i didnt think it could from the head/header area either. I'll check my headers, but i tightened them about a month ago. Thanks guys, i'll keep you posted ------------------ Under Construction 66 Coupe -289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

10-31-2001, 07:03 PM	#12
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	An exhaust leak caused by a collector bolt missing would be noticably louder at high rpm's, but a leak at the header/head mating surface will be drowned out by the engine noise at high rpms. At least until it get's really bad. Also, just because the bolts are tight doesn't mean it's sealed. All it takes is to have one bolt loosen one time, and the damage can be done. A small tear in the gasket can form, and even after you tighten it, the exhaust pressure can eat through the new weak spot in the gasket, creating what will look like a crack in the gasket. Or, the header mating surface could slightly warp, so that even when the bolts are tight, they don't seal. Don't tighten any bolts yet. Try to feel for the exhaust leak with your fingers first. It will be easier to find if you leave the bolts alone. Once you find it, try tightening the bolts, and see if it goes away. If it doesn't, unbolt the header and replace the gasket. Make sure you completely clean all of the old gasket from the head and the header, otherwise you'll have another leak right away. Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

10-31-2001, 07:38 PM	#13
66 Racer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: West Covina, CA Posts: 77	thanks, that really explained it all, i hope thats it. ---Anthony ------------------ Under Construction 66 Coupe -289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

10-31-2001, 07:43 PM	#14
Gearhead999 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1998 Location: Oviedo, FL Posts: 992	Rev, Have you tried "Stage 8" header bolts?? I use them and they keep the bolts from coming loose and blowing the gaskets. A couple more that usually work...File the surface on the header where the gasket meets it. Make it FLAT. Also, you can cut the flange between the individual header pipes with a saber saw or sawzaw. This makes 4 seperate flanges on the head surface and they seem to contour better to the head.

10-31-2001, 07:46 PM	#15
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Chris, I do use that exact ignition wrench that you referred to. It's a god send for a couple of the more difficult bolts. It's kinda hard to get a lot of torque with that little wrench, but at least I can tighten the bolt using it. Thanks for the input. Rev ------------------ '66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph 1/4 mi.

10-31-2001, 09:24 PM	#16
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Great minds think alike... ...for more torque, try looping the box end of a 7/16" combination wrench (preferably a long one if you have it) into the open end of the ignition wrench. Adds leverage. Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

11-01-2001, 08:16 PM	#17
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Gearhead, that's a great idea about separating the flange for the different ports. Hadn't heard of it before. Thanks. Rev ------------------ '66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph 1/4 mi. [This message has been edited by Rev (edited 11-01-2001).]