engine problem

ponyexpress289 · 10-12-2002, 01:20 PM

i put a new cam in duration 272 lift 484 and everything is stock
ok well we found tdc and got the car running but when i get on it
the cars dies when i come to a stop or when i slow down
well today we uped the timing and the car idles at bout above 600 and no higher than 1000 so between 600-1000
well when i romp on it it cuts out or backfires like really bad

whats the problem with my motor?
thx

PKRWUD · 10-12-2002, 01:36 PM

What kind of carb is on it? Where is the timing set to at idle? Do you have vacuum advance, and did you disconnect it when you set your timing? Have you adjusted your idle mixture?

ponyexpress289 · 10-12-2002, 01:40 PM

holley 650 i think if not then alitlle bigger
what is the timing set to an idle?? uhh ?
the others question i duno
but we did mess with the idle speed and mixture

PKRWUD · 10-12-2002, 01:57 PM

First you need to set the idle mixture correctly:

1) Gently turn both mixture screws in until they bottom out.
2) Back them both out 1 1/2 turns.
3) Warm up engine
4) Turn idle speed down as LOW as the engine will maintain.
5) Adjust the screws in two round trips (adjust one side, then the other, then come back to the first side, then go back to the other side) to get the highest RPM.
6) Add an aditional 1/8 turn out for each screw.
7) Reset idle speed to desired level.
8) Shut off engine and check that both screws are the same. If they're not, set both to the average of the two.
9) Restart engine to check idle quality.

Next, I was asking what you set the timing to. At idle, what's it at? Also, do you have vacuum advance?

ponyexpress289 · 10-12-2002, 02:05 PM

ok we did that
the timing set i dont know what it is my friend had a time light and he did it so i dont know
and a vacum advance i dont know if i do
i have a little hose from the dist. that goes to the carb

but it still back fires

PKRWUD · 10-12-2002, 02:09 PM

Does it backfire through the carb or the exhaust? Does it backfire when accelerating or decelerating? Does the exhaust smell rich?

ponyexpress289 · 10-12-2002, 02:16 PM

huge flame comes out of the carb
and the exh. smells normal
and it backfires when accelrating
but sometimes it wants to cut out like not enough fire going on

PKRWUD · 10-12-2002, 02:27 PM

You need to find out where your timing is at, but, more importantly, you need to replace the power valve in your carb. If it backfired through the carb, it blew out the power valve, and no matter what you do, it will continue to backfire through the carb, with flames.

If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer them tomorrow. We're racing tonight, and I have to go get ready.

Take care,
~Chris

ponyexpress289 · 10-12-2002, 02:34 PM

alrighty then thx alot

jim_howard_pdx · 10-13-2002, 12:19 PM

Sounds like your accelerator pump is not delivering fuel properly when you stomp on it. That is why it backfires or lays down. I would buy a Barry Grant rebuild kit some carb cleaner and do a full cleaning.

Make sure the accelerator pump adjustable piston is set to make contact with the accelerator pump actuating arm. I set no more than .010 clearance on that puppy.

If your 650 is a double pumper, it may be delivering too much fuel.

Hope this helps. Email me at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com with a full description of your carb, your intake, and how you use the car.

PKRWUD · 10-13-2002, 03:45 PM

If it was the accelerator pump, it would bog when he punched it, then recover and go fine until he backed off, and hit it again. I suspect he has too much total advance, or shouldn't be using the vacuum advance, and has caused an intake backfire that now has blown out the power valve, resulting in it always backfiring through the carb. Hard to say without being there.

ponyexpress289-
If you just let it idle for 10 minutes, does it start to run rich? What's the carb List# (look on the airhorn for something like; "LIST-4777-1")?

jim_howard_pdx · 10-13-2002, 06:32 PM

Peckerwood has you on the right road.

REBUILD THE CARB
Get a Barry Grant rebuild kit.
Get a Can of Carb Cleaner.
Dissassemble the carb and soak everything at least overnight.
Wash the soaked parts in HOT water, then wash them a second time, then wash them a third time.
Blow out every circuit with carb cleaner and then with compressed air.
Replace the power control valve(s)

Since you have cammed UP, you are going to be WAY LEAN. This is disastrous for an engine. You probably need to jet up 2 to 3 jet sizes if you had a GT based car and 4-6 jet sizes if you had a grocery getter.

Holley stamps each jet with a number that is simply a reference tool. The number by itself has NO REAL MEANING. But if you have 70's for instance. you might try 73 or 74 jets as a baseline. Then jet up or down by two size increments.

As you do your rebuild, use a backfire control valve which costs about 8.00 from spectre. This will prevent future PCV blowouts. This is a must on any holley.

I like to plug read a car. At proper jetting the plug with be light gray or light tan depending on what the fuel company adds to make the octane number of the gasoline you burn. If you are way lean, it will be gray, so do not accept gray as a finish line. You must jet up until it goes sooty. Then you know you are rich. Now back down to where the soot goes away and you have mostly tan or gray.

If you have a metering plate instead of a metering block in the secondaries, you should buy the holley kit to convert to the metering block. Now you will be able to jet the secondaries.

If you have a secondary power control valve I like to use the holley plug to close that down, then jet up 3-4 sizes from the primary venturis.

This may take you a week or more to nail down the proper jets. You need to buy a timing light and learn to set the advance. If you have a vacume advance you may want to block it off at both the carb side and the vacume can. Vacume advance is for stock cams with stock driving in mind. On a performance engine it will make you detonate at highway speeds which will ruin your valves, valve guides and piston rings.

A cam like yours should never see more than 32 degrees of total timing with pump gas, and no more than 36 degrees with racing gas. A vacume advance is putting you into the 40-45 degree area which is not appropriate for a performance cam.

Remember that clean air is essential to holley performance. Buy K&N rechargeable filters. They are medical grade cotton elements with a light coating of oil to trap the small dirt that clogs up a holley. I use a X stream unit that adds top air filtration to the side filtration and really like it alot.

That cam is a little big for a stock lower end. Keep the RPM below 6,000 or those cast pistons will come back to haunt you.

Consider buying some World Product Victor Jr heads. This will give you an additional 30-40 hp and alot better fuel burn.

Hope this helps.

Ron1 · 10-13-2002, 11:51 PM

Might the distributor be off a couple of notches when he dropped it in? Based on your questions, I would highly recommend you take the car to a professional for the final tune

Ron

PKRWUD · 10-14-2002, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
Peckerwood has you on the right road.

REBUILD THE CARB
Get a Barry Grant rebuild kit.
Get a Can of Carb Cleaner.
Dissassemble the carb and soak everything at least overnight.
Wash the soaked parts in HOT water, then wash them a second time, then wash them a third time.
Blow out every circuit with carb cleaner and then with compressed air.
Replace the power control valve(s)

Since you have cammed UP, you are going to be WAY LEAN. This is disastrous for an engine. You probably need to jet up 2 to 3 jet sizes if you had a GT based car and 4-6 jet sizes if you had a grocery getter.

Holley stamps each jet with a number that is simply a reference tool. The number by itself has NO REAL MEANING. But if you have 70's for instance. you might try 73 or 74 jets as a baseline. Then jet up or down by two size increments.

As you do your rebuild, use a backfire control valve which costs about 8.00 from spectre. This will prevent future PCV blowouts. This is a must on any holley.

I like to plug read a car. At proper jetting the plug with be light gray or light tan depending on what the fuel company adds to make the octane number of the gasoline you burn. If you are way lean, it will be gray, so do not accept gray as a finish line. You must jet up until it goes sooty. Then you know you are rich. Now back down to where the soot goes away and you have mostly tan or gray.

If you have a metering plate instead of a metering block in the secondaries, you should buy the holley kit to convert to the metering block. Now you will be able to jet the secondaries.

If you have a secondary power control valve I like to use the holley plug to close that down, then jet up 3-4 sizes from the primary venturis.

Or, you could have me build you one.

I'm not cheap, though.

ponyexpress289 · 10-14-2002, 07:38 AM

two days gone and lots of posts hahaha
well my points in the dist. were fucked so i replaced those and it doesnt back fire
after ten minutes of idling i dont know if it is rich? sorry
would the power valve make the car die after i get on it( push on the clutch or sllooww down from a fast roll)
it doesnt bog out or spit unless after i get on it like today i got on it and i stopped ( w/ the clutch in ) and it died
as far as rebuildint the carb my car is a daily driver so i am pretty much screwed on that.
holley double pumper i dont know if it is , how can u tell?
i have a 2 bbl in the trunk could i put that on and see if it still acts up ?
( as far as the dying when at a stop.)

ponyexpress289 · 10-14-2002, 07:40 AM

where could i go for a tune
( i live in rowlett)
like a ford dealership?
oil shop?

jim_howard_pdx · 10-14-2002, 01:30 PM

Sorry if I am a bit of a hard ***, but why in creation did you ever attempt a cam change if you do not know how to time an engine, know the difference between vacume secondary carbs and double pumpers, or know how to tell if the car is running lean or rich?

What were you thinking?

First, you need to let us know the initial timing at idle and the full idle at 3500-4000 RPM. If it is over 32 degrees, you need to disonnect the vacume secondary and plug both ends to eliminate any vacume leaks. Then readjust the timing so you get a maximum of 32 degrees at 4,000 RPM. Then let us know where your initial advance is, it should be between 6-15 degrees.

Second, you may be having coil problems. If your coil is saturating at high RPMS then your engine will die or miss badly. You need at least a 55k volt coil for that cam, and some good spark plugs like NGK V groove or racing plugs. What is your coil? How old is it? Is it mounted correctly. Some are oil filled and have to be mounted so the oil completely covers the coil inside, otherwise it toasts itself. I buy epoxy filled coils, they handle vibration better than oil.

Points--who runs points anymore. Do you have an electronic ignition box on your rig? If you do, convert over to the durospark ignition. Just buy a rebuilt 79 or up Mustang distributor and use the magnetic pickup on the ignition box. The points type distributors are old, and chances are that the distributor bearings are worn now, so the ignition is probably ALL OVER THE MAP. You need a rebuilt distributor and the points have got to go!

If the carb you are using has been sitting around for a month or so IT MUST BE REBUILT. I completely remove all gasoline on any carb I plan to store, otherwise the gasoline congeals and you get obstructions in places you cannot see or reach. That is why I said to soak it at least overnight.

You have to buy a holley rebuild manual at your local part store. This will help you identify the carb you are running and show you how to rebuild it. After all, you need to buy the right rebuild kit in the first place.

You are looking at doing some serious engine damage real soon if you do not get the ignition spark, timing, and air to fuel ratio correct.

PLEASE do not blow this off.

Contact a local Mustang club and BEG for help and mercy. They may save this project for you, and you might make some friends during the process.

ponyexpress289 · 10-14-2002, 04:04 PM

i was thinking that my freinds and me would be able to have a good riunning car when we got done
and my mopar friend had a timing light and timed and retimed and retimed
and sorry i still have points its not like i have money to spare hell i cant even afford a damn coke
that car takes every last of my money so when i do get something i have no money for anything else
the coil is a " high performance " coil from auto zone its red
the holley was bopught brand new and only fuked up after i put the cam but now i got the old 2bbl on and have no problem exept for power
o and thx

Ron1 · 10-14-2002, 06:06 PM

jim_howard_pdx....I was wondering how long it was going to take...I think you just said what some others here were thinking.
ponyexpress289...find a mechanic or performance shop that can help you set the final tune. There has to be someone in town or close by.

bgnracing · 10-21-2002, 10:14 AM

i see on your post that you are from rowlett....is that rowlett tx..?? if so,let me know..i can help you fix your car....i work in rockwall and live in plano

10-12-2002, 01:20 PM	#1
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	engine problem i put a new cam in duration 272 lift 484 and everything is stock ok well we found tdc and got the car running but when i get on it the cars dies when i come to a stop or when i slow down well today we uped the timing and the car idles at bout above 600 and no higher than 1000 so between 600-1000 well when i romp on it it cuts out or backfires like really bad whats the problem with my motor? thx __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-12-2002, 01:36 PM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	What kind of carb is on it? Where is the timing set to at idle? Do you have vacuum advance, and did you disconnect it when you set your timing? Have you adjusted your idle mixture? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-12-2002, 01:40 PM	#3
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	prob. holley 650 i think if not then alitlle bigger what is the timing set to an idle?? uhh ? the others question i duno but we did mess with the idle speed and mixture __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-12-2002, 01:57 PM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	First you need to set the idle mixture correctly: 1) Gently turn both mixture screws in until they bottom out. 2) Back them both out 1 1/2 turns. 3) Warm up engine 4) Turn idle speed down as LOW as the engine will maintain. 5) Adjust the screws in two round trips (adjust one side, then the other, then come back to the first side, then go back to the other side) to get the highest RPM. 6) Add an aditional 1/8 turn out for each screw. 7) Reset idle speed to desired level. 8) Shut off engine and check that both screws are the same. If they're not, set both to the average of the two. 9) Restart engine to check idle quality. Next, I was asking what you set the timing to. At idle, what's it at? Also, do you have vacuum advance? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-12-2002, 02:05 PM	#5
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	prob ok we did that the timing set i dont know what it is my friend had a time light and he did it so i dont know and a vacum advance i dont know if i do i have a little hose from the dist. that goes to the carb but it still back fires __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-12-2002, 02:09 PM	#6
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Does it backfire through the carb or the exhaust? Does it backfire when accelerating or decelerating? Does the exhaust smell rich? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-12-2002, 02:16 PM	#7
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	prob huge flame comes out of the carb and the exh. smells normal and it backfires when accelrating but sometimes it wants to cut out like not enough fire going on __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-12-2002, 02:27 PM	#8
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	You need to find out where your timing is at, but, more importantly, you need to replace the power valve in your carb. If it backfired through the carb, it blew out the power valve, and no matter what you do, it will continue to backfire through the carb, with flames. If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer them tomorrow. We're racing tonight, and I have to go get ready. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-12-2002, 02:34 PM	#9
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	ok alrighty then thx alot __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-13-2002, 12:19 PM	#10
jim_howard_pdx Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 247	Sounds like your accelerator pump is not delivering fuel properly when you stomp on it. That is why it backfires or lays down. I would buy a Barry Grant rebuild kit some carb cleaner and do a full cleaning. Make sure the accelerator pump adjustable piston is set to make contact with the accelerator pump actuating arm. I set no more than .010 clearance on that puppy. If your 650 is a double pumper, it may be delivering too much fuel. Hope this helps. Email me at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com with a full description of your carb, your intake, and how you use the car. __________________ 1966 Customized for daily street and highway domination. 358 Windsor running 425 HP C-4 Auto and 3.25 Posi

10-13-2002, 03:45 PM	#11
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	If it was the accelerator pump, it would bog when he punched it, then recover and go fine until he backed off, and hit it again. I suspect he has too much total advance, or shouldn't be using the vacuum advance, and has caused an intake backfire that now has blown out the power valve, resulting in it always backfiring through the carb. Hard to say without being there. ponyexpress289- If you just let it idle for 10 minutes, does it start to run rich? What's the carb List# (look on the airhorn for something like; "LIST-4777-1")? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-13-2002, 06:32 PM	#12
jim_howard_pdx Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 247	Peckerwood has you on the right road. REBUILD THE CARB Get a Barry Grant rebuild kit. Get a Can of Carb Cleaner. Dissassemble the carb and soak everything at least overnight. Wash the soaked parts in HOT water, then wash them a second time, then wash them a third time. Blow out every circuit with carb cleaner and then with compressed air. Replace the power control valve(s) Since you have cammed UP, you are going to be WAY LEAN. This is disastrous for an engine. You probably need to jet up 2 to 3 jet sizes if you had a GT based car and 4-6 jet sizes if you had a grocery getter. Holley stamps each jet with a number that is simply a reference tool. The number by itself has NO REAL MEANING. But if you have 70's for instance. you might try 73 or 74 jets as a baseline. Then jet up or down by two size increments. As you do your rebuild, use a backfire control valve which costs about 8.00 from spectre. This will prevent future PCV blowouts. This is a must on any holley. I like to plug read a car. At proper jetting the plug with be light gray or light tan depending on what the fuel company adds to make the octane number of the gasoline you burn. If you are way lean, it will be gray, so do not accept gray as a finish line. You must jet up until it goes sooty. Then you know you are rich. Now back down to where the soot goes away and you have mostly tan or gray. If you have a metering plate instead of a metering block in the secondaries, you should buy the holley kit to convert to the metering block. Now you will be able to jet the secondaries. If you have a secondary power control valve I like to use the holley plug to close that down, then jet up 3-4 sizes from the primary venturis. This may take you a week or more to nail down the proper jets. You need to buy a timing light and learn to set the advance. If you have a vacume advance you may want to block it off at both the carb side and the vacume can. Vacume advance is for stock cams with stock driving in mind. On a performance engine it will make you detonate at highway speeds which will ruin your valves, valve guides and piston rings. A cam like yours should never see more than 32 degrees of total timing with pump gas, and no more than 36 degrees with racing gas. A vacume advance is putting you into the 40-45 degree area which is not appropriate for a performance cam. Remember that clean air is essential to holley performance. Buy K&N rechargeable filters. They are medical grade cotton elements with a light coating of oil to trap the small dirt that clogs up a holley. I use a X stream unit that adds top air filtration to the side filtration and really like it alot. That cam is a little big for a stock lower end. Keep the RPM below 6,000 or those cast pistons will come back to haunt you. Consider buying some World Product Victor Jr heads. This will give you an additional 30-40 hp and alot better fuel burn. Hope this helps. __________________ 1966 Customized for daily street and highway domination. 358 Windsor running 425 HP C-4 Auto and 3.25 Posi

10-13-2002, 11:51 PM	#13
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	Might the distributor be off a couple of notches when he dropped it in? Based on your questions, I would highly recommend you take the car to a professional for the final tune Ron

10-14-2002, 07:38 AM	#15
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	wow two days gone and lots of posts hahaha well my points in the dist. were fucked so i replaced those and it doesnt back fire after ten minutes of idling i dont know if it is rich? sorry would the power valve make the car die after i get on it( push on the clutch or sllooww down from a fast roll) it doesnt bog out or spit unless after i get on it like today i got on it and i stopped ( w/ the clutch in ) and it died as far as rebuildint the carb my car is a daily driver so i am pretty much screwed on that. holley double pumper i dont know if it is , how can u tell? i have a 2 bbl in the trunk could i put that on and see if it still acts up ? ( as far as the dying when at a stop.) __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-14-2002, 07:40 AM	#16
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	proff. tune? where could i go for a tune ( i live in rowlett) like a ford dealership? oil shop? __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-14-2002, 01:30 PM	#17
jim_howard_pdx Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 247	Sorry if I am a bit of a hard ***, but why in creation did you ever attempt a cam change if you do not know how to time an engine, know the difference between vacume secondary carbs and double pumpers, or know how to tell if the car is running lean or rich? What were you thinking? First, you need to let us know the initial timing at idle and the full idle at 3500-4000 RPM. If it is over 32 degrees, you need to disonnect the vacume secondary and plug both ends to eliminate any vacume leaks. Then readjust the timing so you get a maximum of 32 degrees at 4,000 RPM. Then let us know where your initial advance is, it should be between 6-15 degrees. Second, you may be having coil problems. If your coil is saturating at high RPMS then your engine will die or miss badly. You need at least a 55k volt coil for that cam, and some good spark plugs like NGK V groove or racing plugs. What is your coil? How old is it? Is it mounted correctly. Some are oil filled and have to be mounted so the oil completely covers the coil inside, otherwise it toasts itself. I buy epoxy filled coils, they handle vibration better than oil. Points--who runs points anymore. Do you have an electronic ignition box on your rig? If you do, convert over to the durospark ignition. Just buy a rebuilt 79 or up Mustang distributor and use the magnetic pickup on the ignition box. The points type distributors are old, and chances are that the distributor bearings are worn now, so the ignition is probably ALL OVER THE MAP. You need a rebuilt distributor and the points have got to go! If the carb you are using has been sitting around for a month or so IT MUST BE REBUILT. I completely remove all gasoline on any carb I plan to store, otherwise the gasoline congeals and you get obstructions in places you cannot see or reach. That is why I said to soak it at least overnight. You have to buy a holley rebuild manual at your local part store. This will help you identify the carb you are running and show you how to rebuild it. After all, you need to buy the right rebuild kit in the first place. You are looking at doing some serious engine damage real soon if you do not get the ignition spark, timing, and air to fuel ratio correct. PLEASE do not blow this off. Contact a local Mustang club and BEG for help and mercy. They may save this project for you, and you might make some friends during the process. __________________ 1966 Customized for daily street and highway domination. 358 Windsor running 425 HP C-4 Auto and 3.25 Posi

10-14-2002, 04:04 PM	#18
ponyexpress289 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: rowlett Posts: 136	ok i was thinking that my freinds and me would be able to have a good riunning car when we got done and my mopar friend had a timing light and timed and retimed and retimed and sorry i still have points its not like i have money to spare hell i cant even afford a damn coke that car takes every last of my money so when i do get something i have no money for anything else the coil is a " high performance " coil from auto zone its red the holley was bopught brand new and only fuked up after i put the cam but now i got the old 2bbl on and have no problem exept for power o and thx __________________ er OK YAY! i Drive A 86gT with An aTrim!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

10-14-2002, 06:06 PM	#19
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	jim_howard_pdx....I was wondering how long it was going to take...I think you just said what some others here were thinking. ponyexpress289...find a mechanic or performance shop that can help you set the final tune. There has to be someone in town or close by.

10-21-2002, 10:14 AM	#20
bgnracing Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: plano/rockwall Posts: 3	where you at..?? i see on your post that you are from rowlett....is that rowlett tx..?? if so,let me know..i can help you fix your car....i work in rockwall and live in plano

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