Front end wobble with drum brakes

orlowted · 10-22-2003, 12:17 PM

Hello - I would first like to say that I have only been on the boards for a week or so and the help I have received is outstanding. It is nice to see such a knowledgable group of Mustang Enthusiasts here. Now on to my real problem (my winter project soon to start). I just got my 1965 mustang on the road this summer for the first time. It started 6 years ago as a 6 cylinder car and I swapped the front and rear suspension from a donor car. My first test ride in the car was a litttle scary...I had just put nwe drum brakes on it - and needless to say - I was not very pleased with the stopping power. When I applied the brakes - the entire front of the car shook violently. It did stop, but I am supprised that the hood didn't fly off. I took it to the garage and had them check my brake work and it all checked out fine. He did tell me that the ball joints were shot beyond recognition. I pruchased a suspension erbuild kit and installed it ion hopes of getting rid of the violent wobble. It DID help, but not 100%. I would say that it reduced it by 60%, but it still shakes when braking. I also noticed that my steering has a lot of play when driving. It feels really loose - not tight like a new car. I have power steering, but the pump is not on the car. I guess I really have 2 questions...
1. Will putting Disk Brakes on the car eliminate the wobble?
2. Would replacing the steering box make the steering tight again?
These are my main objectives over the winter and I want to do them right so I can enjoy the car next summer. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
Thanks!
TJ

KiltedBanshees93GT · 10-23-2003, 09:29 AM

I cant say as far as the wobble goes, but I know the early stangs are notorious for the loosness of the steering. Mine does the same thing. Its due to the design of the steering box which used a worm gear instead of the more modern rack and pinion. Basically, the design allows more "play".
Your 2 best options are to either go with a rack and pinion install ($$$$ but nice from what I hear) or there are a couple of companys out there that make updated steering boxes, flaming river is the first to mind. Its about $500 but helps tighten the steering up a good bit, but not as much as a rack and pinion setup.
I'm thinking about the flaming river box myself. This is also assuming that your box is in good shape. If its trashed bad enough, just getting a new stock box might be all you need. It depends on the level of performance youre looking for.
J

HotRoddin · 10-24-2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by orlowted
I also noticed that my steering has a lot of play when driving. It feels really loose - not tight like a new car.

I have power steering, but the pump is not on the car.

You have to get the play out of the steering or you'll never get it to stop wobbling completely. There are some adjustments you can make to the steering box to tighten it up a bit, give that a shot.
If you intend to continue driving minus the power steering then get a power to manual steering adapter made for that purpose, or better yet just get rid of the P/S cylinder and get manual linkage ... that will get rid of a lot of the slop. Don't forget, unlike disks, when you have drum brakes in front you have to make sure you keep them adjusted otherwise the car will be all over the road when you brake hard.
good luck !

Rev · 10-24-2003, 06:46 PM

Before buying a new steering box, try adjusting the old one. There is an adjustment screw on top of the box with a lock nut. Loosen the lock nut slightly and turn the screw about 1/4 turn in and tighten the lock nut. Now try out the car and see how much improvement you got from increasing the preload on the worm gear that you just did.

Do it again if needed, but do it only in small amounts until the slop is gone. DON'T OVER DO IT. That was all I had to do with the steering box on my '66 coupe. All of the suspension and steering should get a rebuild. I never did get my brakes right until I converted to front disks (Granada conversion from Jim's Mustang in Ca.). I wasted $500 completely rebuilding the drums with the fruit jar MC and it still never stopped well until I went to disks with a power booster and power brakes MC from National Parts Depot. Now it stops well and in a straight line. I also did put in Praise Dyno pads and shoes (another $250).

Rev

orlowted · 10-25-2003, 06:43 PM

I got a Power to manual steering kit today. I am going to install this next week and see what happens. I suspect it may take some of the play out of the wheel. I will give the steering box adjustment a try. Is there any trick to doing this? Should I just try 1/4 turn and then drive it or would a partner at the wheel (while the car is up in the air) help pinpoint the settings? I looked at the steering box this weekend and it does not look like an easy change. Has anyone done this before and where might I find guidance on how to do it right?

TJ

mustangman65_79 · 10-28-2003, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rev
Before buying a new steering box, try adjusting the old one. There is an adjustment screw on top of the box with a lock nut. Loosen the lock nut slightly and turn the screw about 1/4 turn in and tighten the lock nut. Now try out the car and see how much improvement you got from increasing the preload on the worm gear that you just did.

Do it again if needed, but do it only in small amounts until the slop is gone. DON'T OVER DO IT. That was all I had to do with the steering box on my '66 coupe. All of the suspension and steering should get a rebuild. I never did get my brakes right until I converted to front disks (Granada conversion from Jim's Mustang in Ca.). I wasted $500 completely rebuilding the drums with the fruit jar MC and it still never stopped well until I went to disks with a power booster and power brakes MC from National Parts Depot. Now it stops well and in a straight line. I also did put in Praise Dyno pads and shoes (another $250).

Rev

Damn rev, not even I knew about the adjustmen t screw, how did u find that out?

Rev · 10-31-2003, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mustangman65_79
Damn rev, not even I knew about the adjustmen t screw, how did u find that out?

Can't remember for sure, but I think a mechanic neighbor told me about it. It is mentioned in the shop manual I think. It's been a few years, so I can't remember for sure, but it did work for me.

Rev

orlowted · 10-31-2003, 07:37 AM

Well - I just finished tearing apart the power steering cylinder and installing the power to manual kit. It took some time, it is in according to the instructions. It also had me remove the slave cylinder from the car completely along with the pump and hoses. I took the car for a 5 minute ride last night and the steering was extremely tight...no play and wobble. The problem seems to be that before I did all this work - I had play in the wheel, but was able to steer easily (with one hand). I noticed right away that now I need to use 2 hands and most of my body weight to turn the wheels. It seems strange because I never had fluid in the pump or the belt on to turn it. Something does not seem right. It is like driving a 8 ton truck without power steering (so to speak). Does this sound normal. I did turn the steering adjustment screw 1/2 turn...Do you think I over did it. Maybe it just needs to loosen up. It is much worse than before...the play is gone, but it is just not easy to manuever. Any thoughts??????

HotRoddin · 11-01-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by orlowted
I noticed right away that now I need to use 2 hands and most of my body weight to turn the wheels. It seems strange because I never had fluid in the pump or the belt on to turn it. Something does not seem right. It is like driving a 8 ton truck without power steering (so to speak). Does this sound normal.

No its not right ... something is wrong. If you had all the power steering componets on before but nothing driving them, then you had no power steering. So unless you changed the length of the pitman arm or something like that that changes the leverage or you changed the steering box with one of a different ratio then it should be no more difficult than before to turn.
If you want to check the adjustment on the steering box then disconnect the link from the pitman arm and the steering wheel should turn completely freely ... like with one finger completely freely.
It sounds like you're trying to push or pull on something that doesn't want to move ... perhaps because its to long or to short or beyond its normal range of movement.
I'd jack the front end up (jack stands!!!) and with the wheels off the ground there should be very little resistance to turning the steering wheel. If you still have heavy resistance, then have someone turn the wheel back and forth while you're under there watching, and look for something that doesn't look right.

orlowted · 11-01-2003, 06:10 PM

I took it out again and it is not as bad. I did notice that the wheel does not turn back on a curve. In all my other cars it rebounds to the straight position. Maybe this is just because it is not power. I will take your advise and put it up on jacks on Monday....It goes off insurance for the winter here in PA. I am going to drive it again tomorrow for a hour or so before I park it and rip apart the front end. Probably not a good time to ask, but I see they have Rack and Pinion steering kits. Has anyone tried one of these? Might as well do it right over the winter.
TJ

10-22-2003, 12:17 PM	#1
orlowted Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fleetwood, PA Posts: 177	Front end wobble with drum brakes Hello - I would first like to say that I have only been on the boards for a week or so and the help I have received is outstanding. It is nice to see such a knowledgable group of Mustang Enthusiasts here. Now on to my real problem (my winter project soon to start). I just got my 1965 mustang on the road this summer for the first time. It started 6 years ago as a 6 cylinder car and I swapped the front and rear suspension from a donor car. My first test ride in the car was a litttle scary...I had just put nwe drum brakes on it - and needless to say - I was not very pleased with the stopping power. When I applied the brakes - the entire front of the car shook violently. It did stop, but I am supprised that the hood didn't fly off. I took it to the garage and had them check my brake work and it all checked out fine. He did tell me that the ball joints were shot beyond recognition. I pruchased a suspension erbuild kit and installed it ion hopes of getting rid of the violent wobble. It DID help, but not 100%. I would say that it reduced it by 60%, but it still shakes when braking. I also noticed that my steering has a lot of play when driving. It feels really loose - not tight like a new car. I have power steering, but the pump is not on the car. I guess I really have 2 questions... 1. Will putting Disk Brakes on the car eliminate the wobble? 2. Would replacing the steering box make the steering tight again? These are my main objectives over the winter and I want to do them right so I can enjoy the car next summer. Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks! TJ

10-23-2003, 09:29 AM	#2
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	I cant say as far as the wobble goes, but I know the early stangs are notorious for the loosness of the steering. Mine does the same thing. Its due to the design of the steering box which used a worm gear instead of the more modern rack and pinion. Basically, the design allows more "play". Your 2 best options are to either go with a rack and pinion install ($$$$ but nice from what I hear) or there are a couple of companys out there that make updated steering boxes, flaming river is the first to mind. Its about $500 but helps tighten the steering up a good bit, but not as much as a rack and pinion setup. I'm thinking about the flaming river box myself. This is also assuming that your box is in good shape. If its trashed bad enough, just getting a new stock box might be all you need. It depends on the level of performance youre looking for. J __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

10-24-2003, 06:46 PM	#4
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Adjust the box Before buying a new steering box, try adjusting the old one. There is an adjustment screw on top of the box with a lock nut. Loosen the lock nut slightly and turn the screw about 1/4 turn in and tighten the lock nut. Now try out the car and see how much improvement you got from increasing the preload on the worm gear that you just did. Do it again if needed, but do it only in small amounts until the slop is gone. DON'T OVER DO IT. That was all I had to do with the steering box on my '66 coupe. All of the suspension and steering should get a rebuild. I never did get my brakes right until I converted to front disks (Granada conversion from Jim's Mustang in Ca.). I wasted $500 completely rebuilding the drums with the fruit jar MC and it still never stopped well until I went to disks with a power booster and power brakes MC from National Parts Depot. Now it stops well and in a straight line. I also did put in Praise Dyno pads and shoes (another $250). Rev __________________ '66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 10-24-2003 at 07:35 PM..

10-25-2003, 06:43 PM	#5
orlowted Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fleetwood, PA Posts: 177	I am going to try this..... I got a Power to manual steering kit today. I am going to install this next week and see what happens. I suspect it may take some of the play out of the wheel. I will give the steering box adjustment a try. Is there any trick to doing this? Should I just try 1/4 turn and then drive it or would a partner at the wheel (while the car is up in the air) help pinpoint the settings? I looked at the steering box this weekend and it does not look like an easy change. Has anyone done this before and where might I find guidance on how to do it right? TJ

10-31-2003, 07:37 AM	#8
orlowted Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fleetwood, PA Posts: 177	Maybe it worked - Maybe it didn't Well - I just finished tearing apart the power steering cylinder and installing the power to manual kit. It took some time, it is in according to the instructions. It also had me remove the slave cylinder from the car completely along with the pump and hoses. I took the car for a 5 minute ride last night and the steering was extremely tight...no play and wobble. The problem seems to be that before I did all this work - I had play in the wheel, but was able to steer easily (with one hand). I noticed right away that now I need to use 2 hands and most of my body weight to turn the wheels. It seems strange because I never had fluid in the pump or the belt on to turn it. Something does not seem right. It is like driving a 8 ton truck without power steering (so to speak). Does this sound normal. I did turn the steering adjustment screw 1/2 turn...Do you think I over did it. Maybe it just needs to loosen up. It is much worse than before...the play is gone, but it is just not easy to manuever. Any thoughts??????

11-01-2003, 06:10 PM	#10
orlowted Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fleetwood, PA Posts: 177	A little better today I took it out again and it is not as bad. I did notice that the wheel does not turn back on a curve. In all my other cars it rebounds to the straight position. Maybe this is just because it is not power. I will take your advise and put it up on jacks on Monday....It goes off insurance for the winter here in PA. I am going to drive it again tomorrow for a hour or so before I park it and rip apart the front end. Probably not a good time to ask, but I see they have Rack and Pinion steering kits. Has anyone tried one of these? Might as well do it right over the winter. TJ

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