My first Dyno run.

chris91LX · 01-05-2002, 06:50 PM

Any Dyno guru's out there have any info they can give me about these results? Done on a bone stock long block with the 73mm maf, 65mm tb, pulleys, ignition, roller rockers and cold air kit. Wanted to get a baseline before I throw on the heads, cam and intake among others. Anyone have any ideas what I should put up with the Edelbrock 3062's, F cam, Probably the edelbrock intake, fpr and a Black Magic Electric fan?

89 ATI · 01-05-2002, 07:20 PM

Probably around 290-300 rwhp with the heads and intake.

Dark Knight · 01-05-2002, 08:50 PM

here's mine with just the heads, stock cam, headers and 1.7's... this is actually about 15HP low...

I pulled 253/293 on another dyno without the BBK's.. when I put them on I picked up 2mph and knocked of .2 in the ET... figure a 3400 lbs. car and 102.5 MPH makes about 280rwhp ;-)

chris91LX · 01-06-2002, 02:35 AM

See your looks alot better to me. Solid numbers all the way through the power band, while mine shoots up to peak for about a quarter second before it drops off the table again. Mine seemed very abrupt, not really what I was expecting. Is my chart unusual for a stock motor with my mods, or have the mods I have on there hurt my torque above 4000rpm and my hp below 4000rpm?

Dark Knight · 01-06-2002, 07:03 AM

well, personally, I dont think a stock engine needs a 2 1/2 exhaust.. that and the headers probably killed the bottom end alot... I still have a 2 1/4 exhaust on mine..everything will pick up for you when you get a good set of heads on there... no AF ratio? and what made the big difference between the pulls?

chris91LX · 01-06-2002, 10:42 AM

No air/fuel ratio. I don't know anything about Dynoing a car so I didn't even know it was supposed to be there. Got it dynoed at a local rice burner shop, they had the best price, but they don't know s*** about Mustangs. They were all impressed as hell with the sound and torque though. I guess the big difference between the pulls was the first pull was in third gear and the second was in fourth. I also noticed that the heat was on in the car when they ran it on the dyno. Would that make any difference?

Phantom5oh · 01-06-2002, 12:36 PM

Well your runs look pretty good. When I run mine I ALWAYS do it in 4th gear. The T5's have a 1 to 1 4th gear ratio, so it makes the numbers more accurate.

Did they put a sensor or probe into your exhaust? They should have. If they did then the dyno computer monitored the A/F ratio, it just didn't print out on the graph. Thats ok, you can always go back later and have them print it out for you. I don't have them print my A/F on the power graph. You might want to go back and see if they will print it out or you.

Having the heat on probably wouldn't hurt you. The heater draws heat from the coolant so it might have kept your engine temps lower making a little more power. But the heater fan doesn't draw much juice from the engine/alt. so you should be ok.

Where is your timing set at? You might want to check that, not just base timing, check total timing too. For some reason my base timing was ok but my total timing was like 10-15 degrees too much. I adjusted that in between runs and got almost 15 peak hp with an average gain of 10 hp. Not bad for 5 mins of work.

What size are the primaries on your headers? That could really kill low end if they are too big, same with the 2 1/2" exhaust. Could just be too big for your current combo like Dark Knight said.

Dark Knight is that graph with the AFR heads? Not bad for just a set of heads that says a lot for AFR!

Steve

chris91LX · 01-06-2002, 01:31 PM

I don't remember if they had anything in the exhaust pipe or not but I doubt it. Like I said these guys didn't know d*** about American muscle so I'm sure there were several things they didn't do right. I've got my base timing set at about 16*, I don't know what the total timing is at. How do I check and change the total timing? Do I have to do it at high rpm or something?

Dark Knight · 01-06-2002, 03:27 PM

that pull was with the heads, 1.7 rockers, performer intake with 600 holley and BBK headers... stock cam etc.. I ran the car with a performer RPM, and it sucked..
http://members.home.net/cappntripps3/dynopulls.html

here ya go...

Dark Knight · 01-06-2002, 03:30 PM

you probably should have tried moving the timing and fuel pressure some...might have made a difference too

chris91LX · 01-06-2002, 04:46 PM

Didn't have the FPR hooked up yet. The exhaust definitely smelled rich, so I'm sure I can get more out of it if i lean it out some.

Phantom5oh · 01-07-2002, 08:48 AM

To check your total timing you need to pull the "pill" as if you were going to set it. Then start the car and have someone rev it up in 500 RPM increments, starting at idle up to say 4000. Continually check the timing as they rev the engine. You'll notice that the timing changes, thats good. As the helper revs the engine watch to find the point where the timing stops advancing. Note that timing and RPM. Thats your total timing without computer adjustment.

Just remember that as soon as you put the "pill" back in the timing will go back to where the computer wants it set at for that RPM and load. I have seen people with it set in the high 20's low 30's initial, because they think if a little helps the a lot must be great. Not so. Bumping the timing in a FI car only allows the computer a higher range of adjustment. The computer can only adjust so much. By adjusting the distributor you allow the timing to adjust more at a higher RPM. Which is good under load.

Maybe for fun you might want to try backing it down a few degrees on your next dyno run. Mine likes a lot of total timing, but only about 12 degrees of initial. Its worth a try for free HP.

Steve

Phantom5oh · 01-07-2002, 08:52 AM

Dark Knight, you ran the Performer RPM intake on your car and it sucked? I am getting a new intake this winter and everyone says get the Performer RPM. Why did it suck, and what are you running in its place now? We have similar mods what do you suggest?

Steve

Dark Knight · 01-07-2002, 09:47 AM

remember, mines a carbed car...the RPM probably wont work real good for you now... but it will work better when you change cams and heads ;-)

Phantom5oh · 01-07-2002, 10:34 AM

Mine is carbed too, its an 83. I already have bumped compression, cam, heads, & exhaust. I am running the Comp Cams XE274HR-12. Its a pretty healthy cam maybe even close to being too much for my current intake and heads.

Steve

Dark Knight · 01-07-2002, 10:41 AM

from what you have done, the RPM would probably work best.. or maybe a torker... NOT what you have...and a bigger carb... probably a 750 DP on a torker would be the best bet... next would be the airgap with the same carb...

are you on the carb mustang mailing list?

Phantom5oh · 01-07-2002, 11:08 AM

No, I'm not on the Carb Mailing list. How do I get on it? I didn't know there was one? That would probaby help a bit! HAHAHA

Yeah I had thought about a Torker, but I HATE my Torker II and I figured that a Torker would be about the same as what I have. So I was thinking maybe get back into the dual plane game, but I am just not sure of what to do.

How do I figure out if my carb is too small? This is the carb I have been running for 5 years now, I switched from a Holley. I lost a little top end go but picked up a bunch of low end torque. At the time it wasn't set up to be a screamer just a warmed up street machine. Now I am working on making it into a vicious sleeper that I can drive all the time. Thats why driving manners are an issue.

Steve

Dark Knight · 01-07-2002, 11:13 AM

you've got mail.. hahhaa...
yeah, mines a sleeper too...dont expect an older stang to run 13's ons plain old street tires.. I've never run with DR's yet.,... drive it out, race and drive home ;-)

Jeff Chambers · 01-07-2002, 11:41 AM

The computer has a fixed timing advance for any particular combination of rpm & load. For most stock computers (e.g. A9L), the maximum advance in the lookup table was about 17 degrees. With a stock base timing of 10 degrees, this gave a total timing advance of 27 degrees at peak conditions. Bump your timing to 16 degrees and the total advance becomes 33 degrees. The computer will not gain a 'wider range of adjustment' by moving the base timing..its still a maximum advance of 17 degrees; rather you've just shifted the entire timing band either up or down (advanced or retarded). Nor will it 'work backwards' to avoid detonation, the computer doesn't know what base timing you've given it. The computer also doesn't adjust timing at the distributor in terms of an advance curve like you'd get with the old spring & weight advances of mechanical distributors. It controls the the spark timing by internally (in the computer) delaying or advancing the coil signal relative to the Hall effect sensor mark and according to the total timing advance it has taken from the lookup table based on the engine rpm and load (which is a function of TPS position).

If you download the demo version of Autologic's chip software, you can get an idea of how the computer's program works in conjunction with the input its gathering from the various engine sensors.

Phantom5oh · 01-07-2002, 11:54 AM

HAHA I guess I really botched that one up huh Jeff? Sorry I didn't mean to confuse the issue of timing.

Steve

01-05-2002, 07:20 PM	#2
89 ATI Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lafayette, Indiana Posts: 120	Probably around 290-300 rwhp with the heads and intake. __________________ 89 GT convertible, Kenny Brown level 5, Edelbrock performer, AFR 165's, Comp cams XE270HR, C&L 76, 24# inj, Crane 1.7's, 70mm BBK throttle body 298.2 hp 328.2 tq Mustang dyno "Our lady of blessed acceleration don't fail me now" Elwood Blues

01-05-2002, 08:50 PM	#3
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	here's mine with just the heads, stock cam, headers and 1.7's... this is actually about 15HP low... I pulled 253/293 on another dyno without the BBK's.. when I put them on I picked up 2mph and knocked of .2 in the ET... figure a 3400 lbs. car and 102.5 MPH makes about 280rwhp ;-) __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-06-2002, 07:03 AM	#5
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	well, personally, I dont think a stock engine needs a 2 1/2 exhaust.. that and the headers probably killed the bottom end alot... I still have a 2 1/4 exhaust on mine..everything will pick up for you when you get a good set of heads on there... no AF ratio? and what made the big difference between the pulls? __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-06-2002, 12:36 PM	#7
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	good base run Well your runs look pretty good. When I run mine I ALWAYS do it in 4th gear. The T5's have a 1 to 1 4th gear ratio, so it makes the numbers more accurate. Did they put a sensor or probe into your exhaust? They should have. If they did then the dyno computer monitored the A/F ratio, it just didn't print out on the graph. Thats ok, you can always go back later and have them print it out for you. I don't have them print my A/F on the power graph. You might want to go back and see if they will print it out or you. Having the heat on probably wouldn't hurt you. The heater draws heat from the coolant so it might have kept your engine temps lower making a little more power. But the heater fan doesn't draw much juice from the engine/alt. so you should be ok. Where is your timing set at? You might want to check that, not just base timing, check total timing too. For some reason my base timing was ok but my total timing was like 10-15 degrees too much. I adjusted that in between runs and got almost 15 peak hp with an average gain of 10 hp. Not bad for 5 mins of work. What size are the primaries on your headers? That could really kill low end if they are too big, same with the 2 1/2" exhaust. Could just be too big for your current combo like Dark Knight said. Dark Knight is that graph with the AFR heads? Not bad for just a set of heads that says a lot for AFR! Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works

01-06-2002, 03:27 PM	#9
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	that pull was with the heads, 1.7 rockers, performer intake with 600 holley and BBK headers... stock cam etc.. I ran the car with a performer RPM, and it sucked.. http://members.home.net/cappntripps3/dynopulls.html here ya go... __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-06-2002, 02:35 AM	#4
chris91LX Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Suburban Chicago, Hanover Park Posts: 695	See your looks alot better to me. Solid numbers all the way through the power band, while mine shoots up to peak for about a quarter second before it drops off the table again. Mine seemed very abrupt, not really what I was expecting. Is my chart unusual for a stock motor with my mods, or have the mods I have on there hurt my torque above 4000rpm and my hp below 4000rpm?

01-06-2002, 10:42 AM	#6
chris91LX Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Suburban Chicago, Hanover Park Posts: 695	No air/fuel ratio. I don't know anything about Dynoing a car so I didn't even know it was supposed to be there. Got it dynoed at a local rice burner shop, they had the best price, but they don't know s*** about Mustangs. They were all impressed as hell with the sound and torque though. I guess the big difference between the pulls was the first pull was in third gear and the second was in fourth. I also noticed that the heat was on in the car when they ran it on the dyno. Would that make any difference?

01-06-2002, 01:31 PM	#8
chris91LX Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Suburban Chicago, Hanover Park Posts: 695	I don't remember if they had anything in the exhaust pipe or not but I doubt it. Like I said these guys didn't know d*** about American muscle so I'm sure there were several things they didn't do right. I've got my base timing set at about 16*, I don't know what the total timing is at. How do I check and change the total timing? Do I have to do it at high rpm or something?

01-06-2002, 03:30 PM	#10
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	you probably should have tried moving the timing and fuel pressure some...might have made a difference too __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-06-2002, 04:46 PM	#11
chris91LX Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Suburban Chicago, Hanover Park Posts: 695	Didn't have the FPR hooked up yet. The exhaust definitely smelled rich, so I'm sure I can get more out of it if i lean it out some.

01-07-2002, 08:48 AM	#12
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	Total Timing To check your total timing you need to pull the "pill" as if you were going to set it. Then start the car and have someone rev it up in 500 RPM increments, starting at idle up to say 4000. Continually check the timing as they rev the engine. You'll notice that the timing changes, thats good. As the helper revs the engine watch to find the point where the timing stops advancing. Note that timing and RPM. Thats your total timing without computer adjustment. Just remember that as soon as you put the "pill" back in the timing will go back to where the computer wants it set at for that RPM and load. I have seen people with it set in the high 20's low 30's initial, because they think if a little helps the a lot must be great. Not so. Bumping the timing in a FI car only allows the computer a higher range of adjustment. The computer can only adjust so much. By adjusting the distributor you allow the timing to adjust more at a higher RPM. Which is good under load. Maybe for fun you might want to try backing it down a few degrees on your next dyno run. Mine likes a lot of total timing, but only about 12 degrees of initial. Its worth a try for free HP. Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works Last edited by Phantom5oh; 01-07-2002 at 12:02 PM..

01-07-2002, 08:52 AM	#13
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	Performer RPM? Dark Knight, you ran the Performer RPM intake on your car and it sucked? I am getting a new intake this winter and everyone says get the Performer RPM. Why did it suck, and what are you running in its place now? We have similar mods what do you suggest? Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works

01-07-2002, 09:47 AM	#14
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	remember, mines a carbed car...the RPM probably wont work real good for you now... but it will work better when you change cams and heads ;-) __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-07-2002, 10:34 AM	#15
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	Mine is carbed too, its an 83. I already have bumped compression, cam, heads, & exhaust. I am running the Comp Cams XE274HR-12. Its a pretty healthy cam maybe even close to being too much for my current intake and heads. Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works

01-07-2002, 10:41 AM	#16
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	from what you have done, the RPM would probably work best.. or maybe a torker... NOT what you have...and a bigger carb... probably a 750 DP on a torker would be the best bet... next would be the airgap with the same carb... are you on the carb mustang mailing list? __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-07-2002, 11:08 AM	#17
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	Carb mailing list? No, I'm not on the Carb Mailing list. How do I get on it? I didn't know there was one? That would probaby help a bit! HAHAHA Yeah I had thought about a Torker, but I HATE my Torker II and I figured that a Torker would be about the same as what I have. So I was thinking maybe get back into the dual plane game, but I am just not sure of what to do. How do I figure out if my carb is too small? This is the carb I have been running for 5 years now, I switched from a Holley. I lost a little top end go but picked up a bunch of low end torque. At the time it wasn't set up to be a screamer just a warmed up street machine. Now I am working on making it into a vicious sleeper that I can drive all the time. Thats why driving manners are an issue. Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works Last edited by Phantom5oh; 01-07-2002 at 12:05 PM..

01-07-2002, 11:13 AM	#18
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	you've got mail.. hahhaa... yeah, mines a sleeper too...dont expect an older stang to run 13's ons plain old street tires.. I've never run with DR's yet.,... drive it out, race and drive home ;-) __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

01-07-2002, 11:41 AM	#19
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	The computer has a fixed timing advance for any particular combination of rpm & load. For most stock computers (e.g. A9L), the maximum advance in the lookup table was about 17 degrees. With a stock base timing of 10 degrees, this gave a total timing advance of 27 degrees at peak conditions. Bump your timing to 16 degrees and the total advance becomes 33 degrees. The computer will not gain a 'wider range of adjustment' by moving the base timing..its still a maximum advance of 17 degrees; rather you've just shifted the entire timing band either up or down (advanced or retarded). Nor will it 'work backwards' to avoid detonation, the computer doesn't know what base timing you've given it. The computer also doesn't adjust timing at the distributor in terms of an advance curve like you'd get with the old spring & weight advances of mechanical distributors. It controls the the spark timing by internally (in the computer) delaying or advancing the coil signal relative to the Hall effect sensor mark and according to the total timing advance it has taken from the lookup table based on the engine rpm and load (which is a function of TPS position). If you download the demo version of Autologic's chip software, you can get an idea of how the computer's program works in conjunction with the input its gathering from the various engine sensors. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

01-07-2002, 11:54 AM	#20
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	HAHA I guess I really botched that one up huh Jeff? Sorry I didn't mean to confuse the issue of timing. Steve __________________ 95 GTS 03 DR 650SE Sgarzi's Machine Works Last edited by Phantom5oh; 01-07-2002 at 12:04 PM..

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