old school vrs new school
 

ok guys what are your appinions on this subject.


almost all the guys now that are going for high power stangs got eathier the 5.0 fox body style stangs or the brand new(have no idea what they are called) stangs. but what I dont get is I always thought the older stangs were better for racing. so witch is it. I mean dont ket me wrong here I love my 66 and as some of you probly know I am planning on doing A 6 to 8cyl swap at the beginning of this next summer. but I want to make sure I do it right and am going to be able to compeet with the newer stangs. so basicly is every one just over looking the classic stangs or are they not as competative as the newer one's.


really what I am trying to decide is when I convert over the the 8cyl. will A 289 do the job. or will I need to go with the 351. I just need every thing planned out before I start taking things apart and since I have time I am trying to cover every possible angle of this project.


thanks
ford kid

There is no replacement for displacement! I would go for the 351 you will be much happier in the end.

A 351 would be nice, but comes with some clearance issues (like headers). A nice 5.0 does wonders in a 3000lb car, especially when its stroked ;).

You can make any car fast with enough money. 5.0s are just more popular cuz more people grew up with them. You can take any classic mustang and make it just as fast. It is just that 5.0s are alot cheaper and easier to make fast than a classic mustang. Plus a classic mustang is alot more valvuable in its original condition so you don't see to many people buying them for racing.

I would put the 351 in if your going to race. The '66 coupe only weighs about 2600-2700 LBS. But since there are more 5.0's then old mustangs, most of those get raced. Thats why u don't see many old mustangs, pplus most of them get restored.


I think it's cheaper to race an old car, as long as the body keeps up. No computer, or junk like that to mess with.

Most of the clearance issues are with manual trans. I know this one from experience! A 347 stroker still falls short if you put all the same pieces on a 351, plus the mainwebbing of the 351 is alot stronger then the 302, hence they can handle more power when built properly.

aight thanks guys. thats what I wanted to hear. cuz for me I love the classic mustangs. but just wanted to know if there was A reason. witch now I know there is. so let me see if I get this straight. you guys are saying A 5.0 is better when it is strocked. but what about the computers and the fuel injection(correct me if I am wrong) but A 5.0 is different from A 302 right. A 5.0 is A newer version of A 302 with fuel injection and computers. but would A 302 do the same thing as A 5.0 if it was strocked. but then again wouldn't A 351 have more cubes even if I strocked A 302. damn I am confused.

well I realy want to stay away from all those computers. I dont think they belong in cars. and I am restoring my stang just wanting to race it as well. I dont want to change the body shape at all except maybe A scoop or A cowl induction hood. for more clearance.


well if you guys can explain the isue about the 351 the 302 and the 5.0 being strocked. that would help out alot. but for sure the 289 is out.


thanks
ford kid

Done right, you can get a 351w under the stock hood. Then you wouldn't have to change the body at all.

A 302 and a 5.0 are the same motor. Most people use 5.0 to refer to the fox body cars, even though it is a 302w, just like the motor in a 68.

A stroked 302 is good for 347, but you can stroke a 352 to 408. Not wouldn't that be fun in your 66? The 351 is a stronger block, and if you are really concerned with racing, stroke it and build from there. Thats where the most power will be from your options.:D

I agree with 69fastback on this one (us fastback guys tend to stick together you see).

The reason most people run Fox bodied Stangs is because they are....

1. PLENTIFUL. Easy to find (and cheap) have a lot to do with this.

2. Classic Stangs are OLD. I know I run the risk of offending my fellow enthusiasts with this point, but let's face it......these cars are getting very old, and most of the people driving around and hopping up cars these days have never grown up in or possibly even driven an early Stang. To them it's simply another OLD CAR. OK, a COOL old car, but still old (rides bad, handles bad, no A/C or power assist.....ect.

3. See reason #1. The Fox bodied cars are the modern equivalent of the 55-57 Chevy. Those cars were a hot rodders dream back in the day because they came with good parts to start with, and the aftermarket support picked up on a good thing. Same with the Mustang in the late 80's, and there are an almost unlimited number of parts you can buy to hop these cars up......even more than for the old cars, and thats a lot.

Don't be so quick to toss the computer, they do belong in cars. If it wasn't for computers (bless the EECIV), we would still be driving cars with 150 hp and enough smog equipment to build a battle-bot with. Yeah I know you can make power with a carb, and cheaply, but the computer has allowed us to have cars with a lot of power, and a ton of torque. Torque=FUN. It's what made the old big blocks such a big deal. They made tons, and tons or torque, which is why everyone wants to build a stroker engine these days......more torque. This applies whether you build an old car or a new one, or use a carb or fuel injection. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR CUBIC INCHES.

Either way, build a 351w or a stroker 302 (like a 347), and you will have big grins. Don't forget to add some 3.55 or 3.73 rear gears.....it makes more TORQUE.

The old and new stangs are really different animals.

I like my '65 fastback (302) for different reasons than the '95 cobra (5.0). I learned on the '65 and it is alot easier to work on and diagnose problems. No computer, only a couple vacuum lines, probably 1/100th of the wires running around, no smog equipment,no power steering, no AC. The '65 is great for straight-line power and turns way more heads that the '95 cobra convertible. If the '65 breaks down, I fix it myself with the tools I have.

For the '95, the thing handles corners like you wouldn't believe. The AC is great. If it breaks down, I pay a mechanic to fix it, but it doesn't break down very often.

With some engine/drivetrain work the '65 is as fast as the factory original '95 cobra in the quarter mile.

I would go with the one you can get more local help with. You will always need a spare set of hands and it helps if they are knowledgeible and interested. Either way, it will be a great experience.

Great points made by all above!

I would like to add that a OLD 68 fastback can easily kill a new C-5 corvette in the corners with simple bolt on suspension components. Choose your buildup direction and stick with it!

ok I am preaty sure I know what I am going to do.


I am going to drop in A 302. and drive it around untill I get used to it and put A decent amount of miles on it. then I will strocke it out to A 347. does it sound like A plan or am I missing something. mainly cuz going from A straight six to A 302 will be quit A step and lets face it. I am yung and dont have much experiance behind the wheel.


and sorry but one more question.

when it comes to the trans. I really wanted to go with 4.10 rear gears. mainly cuz top speed doesn't impress me but every once in A while you just got to. so with A 5 speed trans what would be my top speed with 4.10. I know you will need alot more info then just the trans and engine to determine the top speed but just give me an idea. but more importantly I drive the free way almost every day. so with A 5 speed trans and 4.10 gears would I be able to cruise at 70 to 80 mile on houre for alitle while. or would it just be smarter to go with 3.73 gears.


well thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate your help expecially since I am yung and for some reason there are alot of guys that dont want to help yung people.(none of witch I know are on this board) so thanks for helping me out.


thanks
ford kid

I forget exactly where this will put you. MustangBelle306 has 4.10's with here 5speed and I think it runs between 3 and 3.5k at 75. Now that is with a normal OD gear, and it's not that outrageous. Remember that you are going to be way lower than you would running a t-10 and even 3.55 gears.

The biggest factor to know is what size tires are going on the back. If you put on a big tire, your 4.10 becomes an effective 3.9 or so, depending.

My 2.73's run 2200 at 80 so 2200 x(4.10/2.73) = 3304. Seems logical enough, but I'm not sure that its totally accurate.

They now have a kit to bolt in a 6-speed tranny. So u could use your 4:10 with a six speed.

As for the motor, u can run a 302 to get used to ther power, but if u want to race at all, I'd stick a 351w in it. I can be stroked out to a 427, but thats the max, and I wouldn't ever go that high. I heard a 396 bore on it is the best bore. A 289 is a nice motor to have, but it's mainly not a race motor, don't get me wrong, it's strong, but u can get a 302 for less money. U can put in a 351w, leave it stock till u get used to a v8 and don't wrap yourself around a tree, so later on, since u already converted it to a 351, u can build up another 351 while driving the stock one, then put it in when u are done. A 351 fits in tight, but with few mods. More power with only a little more money. Plus u can have the bragging rights that u put in a 351 in your stang and stroked it out to a 396, 408, whatever. few other ppl can say that.

Who makes a kit to bolt in a 6 speed ?

Shoot, now I'm going to have to look it up, I hope I brought the right mag with me, I'll get back to u later.

I made a program when I was researching which 6 speed I wanted to use. It generates a chart for RPM/Gear/MPH. I ran it using a T5, 4.10, and 235/60-15 tires. Click the link to see the chart

CLICK HERE TO SEE CHART

There is one on this site far a T5 that u can modify, go check it out.

My '65 has a 5.0L long block (M-6007-A52) fitted with early v-belt drive accessories, E303 roller cam, GT40 heads/valves, Weiand Stealth and Holley Street Avenger, Hookers, etc. Runs great! Yes, I would have preferred EFI, but finding a good used MAF set up is not easy and a new one is cost prohibitive (I have my limits, and my wife gets a vote on how much I spend!) One day I will add the EFI computer, just not now. Point is, you can use 5.0L engines successfully to power classic Mustangs without using the EFI, serpentine drive, etc. Next mod is four wheel disc brakes. Perhaps next Summer...

hmmmm well I dont have A wife to hold me back but I do got my dad.lol. and right now he is saying for my first v8 engine(the one just to get used to more power. he is limiting the hp to 280. cuz right now with my straight six I only got 120. and he thinks if I can go from 120 to 280 with out crashing then he will let me go as far as I can aford to go. so whats the stock hp on A 302 and A 351. for some reason I dont see the 351 being under 280. so that means that A 302 is what I would go with.


well thanks for the trans help. it looks like I will be getting my 4.10's with A 5 speed. even if it means I got to stay in the slow lane for A 3 hours trip.


thanks
ford kid

hey a cool quick tip on the 302. A 289 looks the same on the outside as a 302. I got a buddy that has a 65 with a 347 and everyone thinks it is just a regular ole 289 car with iron head and everything nobody thinks it has much in it. Well to make a long story short the car runs 10.80s on a 150 shot of nitrous. It surprises alot of people. So when you put in the 302 stay with the carb set up and tell everyone it is the stock 289 95% of the people will not now the difference. Only badges and styling cues on teh car is the way to tell.

Hey Kid,

You'll want 3:50 or 3:89 gears with your five speed. They are sufficiently low to give you very good starting torque and you won't have to shift four times to cross an intersection. If you go with 4:11's, it will feel like you're driving a dump truck.

Jeff65 will the 4.10 still seem to much with bigger then normal tires on the back.


69fastback I like the sound of that. thanks.


thanks
fordkid

Wheel wells on classic Mustangs aren't big enough to handle tires of the width and diameter that it truly affects gear ratio. Here's an example:

Assume you use 3:89 gears and up the tire diameter from 25.4" to 27.5" (I doubt you can get a tire bigger than this in the wheel well and also have proportional width).

Calculate:

25.4x3.14=79.4
27.5x3.14=86.4
86.4/79.4=1.08

Hence you get 8% less gear.

For 3:89

3.89x(1-.08)=3.89x0.92=3.58

The tire effect is such as to reduce the gear ratio by one step.

For 4:11

4.11x0.92=3.78

3:78's are okay with five speed having overdrive of 0.68 or so but you will still shift three times quickly before the car starts to gain speed.

so what your saying is with 4.10's I wont be able to feel the power untill 3rd or 4th gear.


well thanks for telling me about the wheel well. cuz I thought I would be able to go bigger then that.


well if I can't have my big tires then I think I will lower the whole car and cuz I hate to see wheel wells. so since I will have A smaller tire would you guys recomend 3.55'

thanks guy's I think I have every thing selected except for the rear gears. o and the color of paint but you guys dont care about that.lol.


thanks
ford kid

Here's what I'm saying...regardless of tire size, 3:50's and 3:89's are the two best ring and pinion choices. Use 3:50's if you run street tires and 3:89 if you run oversize tires. This way, you'll get some highway economy and gas mileage from a T5 five-speed. Leave the 4:11's on the strip. If you stick with my advice, you'll only have to fill up once an evening...with 4:11's it'll be twice!

My suggestion:

Go with the t-5 tranny, and get the 3.73 gears, trust me, with a five speed, you will regret 3.55's. Forget the 4-10's.

Forget the archaic carbed motor. Get the best of both worlds. Find a 5.0 out of an 89-93 mustang and drop it in, fuel injection, computer and all. Those motors are already pushing an honest 225 horses. With the fuel injection and computer you will have great reliability. You will find out real quick how back carburators suck when having to drive them every day. WIth the 5.0 motor, you can get all the mods that the "fox" cars get. Such as an edelbrock performer intake, gt 40 heads, etc. Then when your dad says "ok" you are good for more power, then time for a supercharger. Why build one engine just to get used to it, then build another a few months or a year down the line. Start off with one engine that you can take all the way.

Do you really have the dough for this? Sound like an expensive project to me.

well I have the money but not as much as you guys think. so I am not rich if thats what you mean. I am inrolled in R-O-P for auto paint and tech. and my tech teacher said that he will help me do the swap after school hours with two other top students. so I have all the tools and help availible so all I need is parts. so that cuts the cost down alot. I am planning on spending 1000 for A donor car just for the rear end and front suspension(I know I might be able to buy the parts cheaper seperate but this way I know I have everything. then I am planning on spending another 2 grand for the motor. and my tech teacher said he would be able to get me A 5speed trans at no cost. and I just got A job(finally) and I have about 7 months to save up. pluss I got another car I can sell so I should have more then anough if I save 3/4 of my checks for 7months. and thats just for starters. once I got the 302 in there and am getting used to the power I can worry about saving for the other mods. probly strocking the engine cuz if I put on A superchrager then every one will know what I got and thats not good. especially with the cops. yung teenager driving A mustang is anuf for me. I dont need every one to know what I got.


ok well I am abviously going to have to think about the gears more. but you guys have talked me out of 4.10's so eather 3.55's cuz my brother inlaw has those and he gets decent MPG. but I might step it up anotch and get 3.73.


well thakns again guys. you have helped more then I can explain.


thanks
ford kid

Just a note...
Early 302's and late "5.0's" have a different balance. If your going to use a late 5 speed,(good idea) make sure you use a 83ish and newer 302.

I have 3.55's in my 93, I wish I went 3.73's. I drive on the highway alot, and I cruise at 80mph all day long with out a problem, getting 30mpg. I don't expect your carbed, aero as brick 65 to do the same , but it shouldn't be far off.
Good luck!

gofastmercury- thanks for the info knowing me I would of got and any year trans and any year engine. and yea I just talked to my brother inlaw and he preatty much said the same thing but in different words. so 373 here I come.


thanks
ford kid

ok, now that you've settled on building a "classic", let's make sure you do it right. It would be quite irresponsible for myself, and others on this board to not address the most important part of hopping up any car, but especially old Stangs.......Suspension and BRAKES.

I know it's not glamorous, and it's hard to brag to your buddies about putting in new strut rod bushings or ball joints, but it is are absolutely essential that the car handle and stop well and to do it consistantly. You really need disc brakes up front.......four wheel discs are great, but you really just need to make sure the rear drums are in good operating condition.

It's easy to get going fast, and it can happen in a big hurry once you get into the 250+ hp range, and you need to know that the car can slow down and make that emergency lane change when somebody in front of you does something unexpected. Please don't overlook this part, we would all hate to see something happen to you.

Now for the fun stuff......MORE POWER. God wouldn't have given us gobs of tire-frying torque and horse power unless he intended us to use it. :D

My advice.....put in a 5.0 (roller cams are wonderful inventions), stick a five speed behind it, buy some 3.80 gears(closest thing to 3.73's you'll find for that 8" rear), top with fresh basil and garlic, bake for 45 minutes at 400 degrees and ....ooops, wrong recipe......put a dual plane intake and 600 cfm carb on top, use 1 5/8" headers and enjoy. Yes you will go through tires quickly, but you just have to budget for that.

Best advice about driving fast.....learn when and where to do it. It doesn't belong everywhere, and the cops will surely remind you of that fact. Don't get me wrong, I drive my car on the street every day, sometimes much faster than I should, but I will NEVER drive stupid on a residential street, and I won't open it up unless I have a good open road without traffic.

To quote the great Peter Parker aka Spider Man "With great power comes great responsibility."

damn I can't belive I forgot about the brakes. disc breaks up front you say. well I have no idea what that would cost and yes I do know what you mean about needing to stop. I mean how many of you can say that not once in this week some one mad A unexpected move right infront of you. so yea I deffinitly need to addres that issue. so how much would front disc breakes cost and whats the best size. like since I am going for speed and not show I am abviousely not going to put big rims on. the biggest I will go is 16 but probly just put some wider 15 on there. so what size disc breakes would be good for 15 inch wheels. and how much more would it cost to put disc breacks in the rear.


thanks for bringing this isue up I would of ended up waisting all that work with the stock drum breakes on there not to menchine no money to rebuild it cuz of insurence.


thanks
ford kid

Shoot, I forgot about it, I'll do it tommorrow. Sorry.

You said this was a six cylinder car didn't you? Putting a V8 into this car really requires a lot more than just dropping it in. The suspension on six cylinder cars is not as tough as the V8 cars, and you would either be better off just starting with a V8 car, or finding one that you can pull all the parts off of. The stock six cylinder suspension will be severely overloaded with a big V8 dropped in.

You probably won't have much luck finding original front disc brakes (if you do, they can be expensive to rebuild), but you do have several options. There are several suppliers (one of which is Stainless Steel Brakes--I think you can go to www.ssbrakes.com --I think thats it, and check them out). I'm not sure how big a brake you can fit under a 15" wheel, but the stock ones were about 11" and can work pretty good.

The cheaper way to go is to swap the front spindles and brakes from a mid 70's Granada/Monarch. These brakes are also about 11" and can be bought very cheap. I think the only real change you have to make is to use the Granada outer tie rod in place of the Mustang one. You can probably put these brakes on the front of your car for under $250, that includes new bearings, rotors, and pads.

This is much cheaper than the aftermarket, which runs about $750 for the front and another $750 for rear disc brakes, which is why I suggest just sticking with stock rear drums. Either way, if you add a lot of power to the car, the tiny six cylinder brakes will never do the job. The V8 will add power and weight to the car, and those little drums were never intended to handle that kind of stress.

Remember, if you put safety first, you can enjoy hopping up your car for many years of street rodding, but if you put the power first, you may never get the chance to worry about safety until it's too late. Just dropping the engine in and hammering the throttle can be the recipe for disaster. Just do it right the first time, and you can forget about it. If you put a basically stock 5.0 into this car with a nice Holley carb on it and a good exhaust, you should have around 275 HP to play around with, and if you have the rear gears in behind it (3.55 or 3.80) the car will be a LOT OF FUN, but a real hand full on wet streets (trust me, I know about this part).

Have fun and good luck.

I have also heard that the disc brakes from a 76/77 maverick will go straight in.

yea like I said before I allrady got A donor car lined up. so I will have all the V8 suspension stuff I need. but I really want disk bracks cuz as soon as I proof to my dad I can handle more power then he will let me go as fare as I can offord. so disck breaks are what I want. so granada disck sounds like A good thing. I will look into that.


thanks
ford kid

Jim's Mustang in El Cajon CA. has a Granada kit with all new parts except for rebuilt calipers and bushed spindles for $600 + shipping. Mine worked out well but for one minor glitch. E-mail me if you go that route.

Rev

aight I will be switching to disc breakes when I start swapping everything ellse. and I will be going with granada disc breks cuz they seem to work well for every one ellse pluss are much more in my price range.


thanks
ford kid