Making power in a 289

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

Right now I am looking for suggestions as to the best ways to make (preferably low money) power out of the 289 engine. Since I never really followed the "classic" Mustang tech, I'm not sure where to start.
In general, I am looking for the equivilent of the basic "bolt ons/tricks" that I know for 5.0s. I'm already going to check the timing, and generally try to tune the car up, but anything else will be a great help.
I've also been thinking about going w/ 351w heads, I've heard and read that they are good for a bit of HP for cheap, why? My understanding is that the bowl design will up the compression, is this correct?
Like I said, I'm not really sure where to start.
Thanks for putting up with my many dingbat questions,
J


BTW, the engine was originally a 2v 289, converted to a shelby hi-rise manifold/Holly 4v, and I dont know what the current cam is.

[Rev]

1.) 302 crank .010/.010
2.) TRW flat top pistons forged
3.) Good basic blue print for the block
4.) 268/268 hydraulic CC cam (Extreme Energy would be better now).
5.) Ported 351W heads (I now use TFTW heads).
6.) Tri-Y headers with 2 1/2" pipes and Flowmasters (I use 3 chambers for th street).

You did say a 289, so I'm assuming an early Stang, not the one listed in your sig.

I do have lots of small things left to suggest, intake, carb, windage tray, scraper, ignitioin, etc.

Rev

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

Originally posted by Rev
1.) 302 crank .010/.010

The 302 crank is to bump up the stroke/higher compression? *admission of ignorance*> .010/010? Bearing surface milled down?

Originally posted by Rev 2.) TRW flat top pistons forged[/B]

Also for compression? What is a maximum good streetable ratio that would not require special/race gas?

Originally posted by Rev 3.) Good basic blue print for the block[/B]

I've always wondered the exact "blueprint" process, how would it differ from a "standerd" rebuild with performance parts

Originally posted by Rev 4.) 268/268 hydraulic CC cam (Extreme Energy would be better now).[/B]

I've been thinking about going with the hydraulic cam, don't they require special lifters on a non hydraulic block ?

Originally posted by Rev 5.) Ported 351W heads (I now use TFTW heads).[/B]

Compression again, with better flow then the stock heads?

Originally posted by Rev 6.) Tri-Y headers with 2 1/2" pipes and Flowmasters (I use 3 chambers for th street).[/B]

The car currently has Hooker long tube headers, I'd have to go look to verify, but I think theyre just regular long tubes.

Originally posted by Rev You did say a 289, so I'm assuming an early Stang, not the one listed in your sig.[/B]

Sorry, I just dont feel like bugging Dan about "accurizing" my handle.

Originally posted by Rev I do have lots of small things left to suggest, intake, carb, windage tray, scraper, ignitioin, etc.[/B]

Suggest away, as it stands, she has a Holly 4barrel, with a '66 Shelby High rise aluminum intake. This week (tonight most likely) I'm ordering a Petronix ignitor to replace the points and a hi po coil (Opinions?). I was torn between that and the MSD system, I went with the petronix because of price, and the car is still fairly stock.
I was under the impression that a windage tray and a scraper were the same thing. What am I missing about that?
Long term, I'm thinking about swapping in a 351w for more power, but I also want to get what I can out of the current motor. What kind of HP can a good reliable 289 generate without making it a maintenence queen?
A t-5 swap is almost guarenteed, at least if I can find a clutch pedal for it As it stands, the car seems to get through its gears way too quick, and I'd like more on the topend.

Sorry for the length of reply,
Jorge

[Rev]

Looks like you understand what needs to be done pretty well. Compression for a street engine using pump gas should end up at about 9.5/1 or maybe even 10/1 but not higher. Mine is about 9.5/1.

Blue printing is just meticulous measuring, machining, and assembly of the engine. It requires perfect bore allignment of the crank journals, squaring the decks with the crank, boring and honing the cylinders with torque plates bolted on, and internally balancing the engine. There's tons of other stuff involved (whole books are written on the subject).

As long as your engine has an oil supply to the lifter bores, you can use a hydraulic lifter cam. I'm pretty sure all 289's had that oil supply. You may want to run a roller cam if it's within the budget. Comp Cams and Crane offer kits. I think the hooker long tubes (1 5/8" primaries) would work well for you.

The main thing to watch out for in a street car is building an engine set up as a race engine. You will want lots of low end torque and crisp throttle response at relatively low RPMs. That means not too big of a cam, carb, ports, or headers. The main thing is to keep the components "matched" or at least compatible. Edelbrock and Holley make matched kits (heads, cam, induction) for a no brainer good combo. What you don't want for the street is an engine that only shines at high RPM and is a dog everywhere else.

You should be able to get pretty good advice from a machine shop that does a lot of high performance Ford small blocks. That's where I got good advice when I did mine to begin with.

Rev

[rbohm]

here are the plans for my 289 going in my 66 mustang;
1: balanced rotating assembly, no blueprinting as it is a waste of money for a street engine. in fact unless you plan on a race only build up dont spend the money on blueprinting. balancing on the other hand is worth the money.
2: cast flattop pistons as this is a street motor, and wont see more than 6000 rpm.
3: world products windsor jr heads with 1.94in/1.50ex valves. the later jr heads have 1.60ex valves.
4: havent decided on what intake/carb combo yet, either a weiand stealth with a road demon 525, or an offy dual quad with twin 1.08 venturi autolite 4100's.
5: retro fit hydraulic roller cam from comp cams featuring .480 lift and 260 duration(advertised).
6: tri-y headers and dual exhaust with 2 1/4" pipe out the back.

all in all this engine should produce about 325hp when all is said and done. it will have solid low end and mid range torque and hp, but will drop off above 5500 rpm. i also expect this engine to get about 18mpg around town and 25 on the road.

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

So with a solid, thought out rebuild and matched parts, a streetable 300+hp. How much more can be made w/o loosing streetability?
Ultimatly, I would like to be pushing 400+hp, would that be beyond the reliable range of a 289? As I said, I was thinking about eventually building a 351w for the car. Would it be simpler/more realistic to hold that goal for a bigger displacement engine?
Also, with the Windsor heads, for budget reasons, I was thinking about using "stock" windsor heads, from an early 70's block, and just having them ported. How big a difference would it be between that and going w/ the aftermarket windsor heads?

J

[rbohm]

ported stock heads vs out of the box windsor jr heads;
performance wise about equaL
price wise about equal
potential windsor jr big advantage.
if you really want a 351w, then best to build one as it would be cheaper overall. the cost to build a 351w and a 289/302 is about the same, and for the same mods you make about 40-60hp more ont he average. unless you have efi, the reliable street power output for a 289/302 is about 350hp.

[Rev]

My opinion is if you want 400 HP from a 289, in streetable form, you will need nitros or a super charger. Either one requires forged pistons and a solid bottom end.

Blue printing is somewhat a variable term. A straight crank bore is necessary. A cylinder bore at right angles to that crank is necessary. A true cylinder bore top to bottom is necessary. Flat block deck surfaces are necessary. Flat head surfaces s are necessary. Proper clearances are necessary as well. I guess it depends on what level of assembly you think is needed for a decent street engine.

Internal balancing is most always needed for an engine 5000-6000 RPM. The truth is that all this costs money. Figure out what you can afford and don't cut corners on the assembly. My $.02.

Rev

[rbohm]

what blueprinting is, is setting all clearances to the design specs. example, main bearing clearance ranges from .002-.003, as i recall the design spec is .0025. that means that all main bearing would be set at .0025 clearance. also all other tolerances would be virtually 0. stroke would be set at 2.87 for each cylinder, deck heights all the same, crank throws indexed so each is at exactly 90 degrees, etc, etc. all that is not needed for a street motor, and in fact not needed for most race motors as well. that is why i say dont spend the money on blueprinting for a street engine. balancing ont he other hand is always worth the money as you improve bearing life markedly.

[Rev]

Production engines have wide tolerances for economic reasons. This is OK for stock engine performance. The higher the performance and power, the more attention that is needed in the quality and tolerances of the parts, machining, and assembly. As I mentioned earlier, whole books are written on blue printing an engine. To greater or lessor degrees, many of these considerations are appropriate for a high performance engine build up.

Rev

[rbohm]

some people will tell you that setting the clearances to factory design spec is blueprinting an engine. but as i stated that is only that start. a proper blueprinting job is time consuming and expensive. it can add a fair amount of power and longevity to a street or a street/strip engine, but the benefits are not worth the cost. now if you are building a winston cup or formula one engine, that is a different story. there you need to find every bit of power available under the rules, and that power needs to be consistant. at that point blueprinting becomes not only a viable option, but it actually becomes mandatory, otherwise you will find yourself an also ran. for a street motor equalize the clearances as best you can, but dont go nuts over it if you cant. also remember a proper blueprinting job can and often does mean major parts get replaced as they cannot be made right.

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

Rev & Rbohm especially,
I see what youre talking about , I'm not a big fan of NOS, but I do like blowers and turbos, but what I've gotten here is good feedback, and I'm adjusting my plans accordingly. Given what I'm looking for I think I'm going to start saving toward the swap option, since I want an engine that performs well, but isn't so tuned out that I cant rely on it/trust it. I think I'm gonna go with the old "displacement" adage, as it were.
Also, theres still a lot of room for the other things (i.e. getting the suspension set to handle more power and getting the rest of the drivetrain ready for it. )
Tho I will still do what I can to make the car faster in its current form 'natch.

Jorge

[rbohm]

something else you might consider is stroking you current engine.
1: you gain displacement with out a weight penalty.
2: everything that fits the 289 still fits.

the biggest disadvantage of using the 289/302 block for a stroker is you are limited to an ultimate maximum ci of 363, and i dont recomend that combo for the street. a practical combo would be a 331 ci stroker, but a 347 with a 5.315" rod is not a bad way to go either. with a 351w you can minimize the weight penalty with expensive aluminum heads, and you can stroke the 351w out to a current maximum of 427ci. but you will need 351w specific parts such as headers, and intakes, and likely you will need to install a hood scoop expecially if you want any intake better than a performer intake.

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

I thought about going with the stroker option, but my understanding was that they could be a bit, um, tempermental on the street. low vacum rough running at low rpm's etc. What would the price comparison be like between going for a 331-347 street combo vs the swap option?
Also, what would the power comparision be like?
One of the reasons that I kinda like the windsor option is that I get to build the motor incrementally, and can keep the car running w/ the original mill until the motor is ready.


Jorge

[rbohm]

you can get the rotating assembly for a 331 or 347 starting at about $1200. a new block from summit racing is like $350. or you can get the assembled short block for like $2100 usually with your choice of cam. you may spend a bit more for stroker motor than a 351, but you also dont gain front end weight which aids handling.
early 347's were tempermental, and used oil, but they were essentially race motors that people used on the street. cam selection as well as intake and head selection have a strong influence on how the engine runs in various rpm ranges.

[Dark_5.0]

I dont frequent the classic mustang forum too often but I was just wondering why you would spend the money to build up a 289.

If I ever go into the block on my 302 I will go ahead and make it a 347. Or go with a 351W. I wouldnt spend the cash to rebuild my 302.

Just wondering if your looking for power why a 289 if your gonna go into the block anyways.

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

Actually, the purpose of the thread was to help me decide what my best option is as far an increasing power. Whether to keep the 289 and rebuild it, go for a 351 or possibly a stroker. I know a little about the latter 2, but this is my first early 289, so I didnt know what the real potential there was.

At this point, I think I'm going to keep the motor the way it is, with minor "bolt ons" and get a 351w to start rebuilding on the side (possibly stroking, pending more research ). I havent decided between new or used yet.

BTW, this raises two basic *read "stupid"* questions, that I've always wondered about, definitions really.
"seasoned" block: =Used?
long block/short block: Whats the difference?

Thanks for putting up w/ my ignorance, and thanks for the responses
J

[Dark_5.0]

a short block is just the block and rotating assembly.

a long block is the block, rotating assembly and heads.

[rbohm]

a seasoned block is one that has been used. it has been through several heat cycles, and has stabilized dimensionally. that means the block is less likely to twist, core shift, warp.

a short block is where you take the bare block, add the rotating assembly, cam and lifters.

a long block starts with a short block, adds the heads, and the rest of the valve train.

a crate motor is a long block where the venodr adds most of the rest of the components like oil pump, oil pan, dist, intake, valve covers. you still have to add a carb or the efi system, headers etc.

ask all the questions you want. just remember there may be ones you wont get an answer too, like can i date your dog or something like that.

[Rev]

Actually, core shift is malfunction in the casting process of the block. The block ends up with thinner walls on one side of a cylinder as apposed to the the other side. Then, if the block is later bored, one side of the cylinder wall can be too thin. This is especially important with thin wall casting techniques as used with the 289 and Ford small blocks in general. Unequal cylinder wall thicknesses lead to uneven heat expansion and non round cylinder bores which means loss of efficiency and power, lots of blow by and short engine life..

Sonic testing can detect this difference in cylinder wall thickness before expensive machining and block preparation is done. Sonic testing is a part of "blue printing" an engine. That will determine if the cylinder walls are of equal thickness around the circumfrence and if in fact there was a "core shift" problem in the original manufacture of a specific block. Early detection of core shift can save lots of grief and expense later on, (IE, after the engine is built and installed).

Because of the thin wall casting technique, .030" over bore is usually the max. for these engines.

Rev