Rev....

[Skyman]

Hey, Rev, you seem to have a good running stang there. I don't know anything about the carb'd cars. But I finally G-teched our 68 the other day.

It ran 15.1@98mph. **** thats slow!! That mph sucks bad. The car feels a lot faster than that. It did have massive wheelspin on the launch. Spun about 150feet. (NO KIDDING) Even let off the gas for a second and then go back into it and it still kept spinning.

The car has FMS Y-303 Aluminum heads, E-303 cam, edelbrock performer intake, and 600cfm holley vac sec carb. Its all through a stock C4 and 3.08 gears. With 9:1 Compression.

Your heads shouldnt flow as well as these heads and your getting high 13's out of your car with a C4 and not much more gear.

Have any tips?

Thanks,

Skyler

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1989 Saleen Mustang #406
-----------------------
TFS Heads, Edelbrock Intake, E-303, 3.73's, 23degrees of timing and 87octane, and all the little stuff.
2.44 60' -
13.5@105.41mph 225Radials
2.0 60' -
13.2@105.81mph ET Streets(100+Degrees)

[Rev]

Hey Sky, just got home from the weekend. Seems like your same old problem. Lack of traction. With a 98 mph track time, my car ran a 14.17 with a 2.11-2.19 60' time. I expect your "new old car" should do something like that from your 98 mph 1/4 mph speed with decent traction . Apart from that, tell me how much your TFTW heads helped you on the Saleen. What did you have before on the Saleen? I'm hoping for 30-50 HP and no low end losses when I can finally do this upgrade. Opinions?

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, windage
tray, TRW flat tops, 351W
heads,pocket ported, 268
CC hydraulic cam, R tip
R's, Edelbrock Performer,
600 CFM Holley vac. secs.,
Mallory Unilite, coil, fuel
pump, Tri-Y headers, 2 1/2 "
custom pipes, 3 chamber
Flows, stock C-4, 3.25
Currie built 8" rear,
March under drive pulleys,
13.97 e.t., 100.1 mph
1/4 mi.

[Skyman]

REV- The tfs heads made a HUGE difference on my saleen. I did them and the cam at the same time. I lost nothing on the lowend. Infact my lowend is so strong I think I have more then before, but I havn't driven a stock 5.0 in a long time. The torque from the E-303 comes right in at 2500rpm.

Before I did the heads/cam/intake to my car it was running 15.1@91mph.

After I got them on, and tuned somewhat, I've now run a best of 13.2@106mph in 105degree weather. So once I get a cold day to goto the track I expect 12's. Especially once the car is tuned some more.

Skyler

------------------
1989 Saleen Mustang #406
-----------------------
TFS Heads, Edelbrock Intake, E-303, 3.73's, 23degrees of timing and 87octane, and all the little stuff.
2.44 60' -
13.5@105.41mph 225Radials
2.0 60' -
13.2@105.81mph ET Streets(100+Degrees)

[Rev]

Oh my gosh. It sounds just like the advertisements are right. Thanks for that tid bit Sky. Now I have to do some major sweet talking with the wife. Don't laugh, you'll be there some day. Thanks again for that unbiased info.

Rev

[Skyman]

Yeah no problem.. I know what you mean, I won't laugh. I want to buy a cheap $450 nitrous kit for my car, and my girlfriend says, "You don't need to spend money on that." She won't let me get it untill I pay other debts down first.


Skyler

------------------
1989 Saleen Mustang #406
-----------------------
TFS Heads, Edelbrock Intake, E-303, 3.73's, 23degrees of timing and 87octane, and all the little stuff.
2.44 60' -
13.5@105.41mph 225Radials
2.0 60' -
13.2@105.81mph ET Streets(100+Degrees)

[Rev]

Sky, how the heck are you manageing a 13.5/105 with a 2.44 60' time. You must really be busting a$$ after the 60'. That's really making me want those TFTW heads. When I do that though, I'm gonna get'em ported if I'm going to all that trouble switching heads.

Rev

[Skyman]

I ran 13.5@105 with a 2.44 60'. That was a hot day too. I've been having a lot of trouble with my timing, and its still really screwy. I'm running 16degrees with the spout out now, and I picked up 3mph in the 1/4. So it should be trapping about 108-109mph on a 80-90degree day now. Theres still more tuning to be done with the timing and the fuel pressure it just sitting at 36psi, Im sure that it could be adjusted more too.

If you port those heads get a damn good flowing intake and a cam that will wind up to atleast 6200-6300rpm!

Your car will really fly!

Skyler

------------------
1989 Saleen Mustang #406
-----------------------
TFS Heads, Edelbrock Intake, E-303, 3.73's, 23degrees of timing and 87octane, and all the little stuff.
2.44 60' -
13.5@105.41mph 225Radials
2.0 60' -
13.2@105.81mph ET Streets(100+Degrees)

rev, hope you read this. my brother in laws 67 coupe is running to damn slow considering the work he's done and it sounds very similar to the combo you are running now. he has a 302 with '66 289 heads that have been shaved and 351 valves installed..rebuilt etc. the cam is a .471 lift summit house cam, 600 cfm holley, edelbrock performer intake, headman 1 3/4 primary long tube headers, 8 inch rear with 3.80 gears and a locker. he runs a stock c4 trans and shifts around 5300 rpms. what is crazy is that this car weighs about 2800 lbs and only runs 9.6 at 77 mph in the 1/8 mile. please help me out, im at a loss and i feel sorry for him. i think he loses a lot on his 2.4 60 ft. times. the car pulls hard 3000-5000 and breaks traction when it shifts but feels like a turd at takeoff. it will only break the tires loose if you break-torque the crap out of it. i know you give up torque with a bigger cam and an automatic, and i know the primaries are way too big for unported stock heads, but the car is not heavy. we have the initial timing on the stock single points type distributor at 12 degrees initial....the same as a hi-po calls for, every part is bolted on right out of the box and the spark plugs are light tan as they should be. he's already wanting to throw a stall converter at it but i think thats jumping the gun. ive never liked throwing parts at a car that should be quicker as is first. any help you can offer would be appreciated, or if you know someone that can help us thats cool too.

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Ron1]

Make7UPYOURS..I think your weight guess may be a little off. As you know the 65/66 were the lightest stangs evr built and weighed in around 2700. The 67/68 were a lot longer, wider and heavier. Usually in the 3200 pound range. Rev, I would just port match those TFS heads and not go overboard. Out of the box they are good heads, but I would do a nice 3 or 5 angle valve cut to get the most benefit.
Skyman, if you are looking to save some money on the N2O, drop me a line at reddd@aol.com, I recently took a plate system of my coupe, and am interested in selling it.

Ron

ron, trust me, ive already weighed my 67 coupe on a scale, i know my car. it weighs 2850 with everything on it, its not stripped down at all. a 5.0 weighs around 3200 maybe, thats why a 5.0 motor in an early mustang will make it quicker than a fox bodied car. a 67 convertible with a/c power steering/brakes, console etc... may be a heavy car but not the base model coupe. it still doesnt explain the lack of power in my brother in laws car, and anyone else that might actually know if there is something we've missed, i'd appreciate the help.

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Skyman]

The stock ignition is TERRIBLE. Lose the points immediately and get a MSD to go with it.

Since the car is lacking lowend performance I would plug off the vacume advance and run 32 degrees total timing all the time. This should help your lowend too.

Give a few more details on the car. and What does that 1/8 convert to 1/4mi.

Skyler

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1989 Saleen Mustang #406
-----------------------
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, 32deg timing w/ spout out, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft.

Best ET 13.2@106mph (untuned)

Gtech 14.1@112mph

sky, you are all over the place in mustangworks! ok, the points type ignition does suck. i dont know how much timing the old style distributor adds to the initial timing so im not sure what the total advance is or where its all in at. i know we already unplugged the vacuum advance a few months ago and replaced the advance weight springs with the lightest set available from mr. gasket. the tune up is brand new, but you are right, a pertronix will be more accurate. the cam was installed straight up, and the 600cfm holley is box stock, the only thing we changed there was the pump cam setting to the #2 position. the 302 short block could be from anywhere and its the only thing we havent touched. its not using oil at all but the scoring on the cylinders says its definetly seen mileage. theres no blowby since the heads were reworked. compression checks before the heads were pulled showed every cylinder different from 110 psi to 130psi. im sure its better now because the heads were shot(recessed valves from unleaded gas etc.) compression check is due i guess, but the heads should perform better than 5.0 stock h.o. heads. 66 289 heads have no smog bumps, and have smaller chambers. besides stainless 351 valves were put in and the heads were shaved for even more compression. the car is light and has 3.80 gears but gets no rubber without brake torquing. what a bomb huh? the tires are 60 series bfg radials only 25 inches tall..not drag radials....they should go up in smoke right? is there anymore info you need on the car?

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Rev]

make7UPYOURS, I think I missed the the duration on the Summit cam. I saw the .471 lift. My '66 Coupe weighs 3020 with a 1/2 tank of gas and without me in it,(includes spare tire & jack though.) This is w/out PS, PB, AC. Please don't ask what it weighs with me in it. LOL. No big honking stereo either. As you can see from my sig, my car is set up for low end torque. Dyno shows 223 @ 5100 and 262 @ 3750 at he rear wheels. This makes lots of oomph off the line but falls badly after 5500. Mostly due the plain Performer and the 268 CC cam and also the mildly worked 351W heads. My feeling is that the large tube headers (for a 302) and possibly a long duration cam are hurting you even with the 3.80 rear and the lighter weight. My understanding is that the 289 heads even though they have small chambers, may not breathe really well even with the larger valves. Coul be some valve shrouding with these heads and biger valves. Thjat could hurt breathing some. It's possible for bigger valves to actually decrease flow. My car runs 9.1 and 81 at the 1/8 mile mark. My first runs with the car were only 14.38/97. Later made 14.17/97. Finally after lots of tweaking got 13.97/101. Tweaking included going through the carb trying different jets (primaries only (4160)), ACC. pump cams, nozzles, secondary springs, adding a K&N stub stack on the carb, windage tray and scraper, roller tip rockers, and changing the distributer advance curve. (13 deg. initial and a whopping 45 deg total, all in by 3000). There was lots of trial and error here, but finally feel Iv'e got about all I can out of this set up. My advice is to make a DynoJet run to see exactly what kind of power you're making and where the torque is. This will be a well spent $75. You'll then hopefully know how to proceed to make the car run the way you want. My gut feeling is you've got too much cam and too big headers. Hope this helps a little.

Rev

[Rev]

Ron1, I've always heard that while Trick Flow TW heads were designed well and made power that they were sort of rough compared to Edelbrock Performers or Ford Motorsport GT40X.Just clean up was what I had in mind. Doubt that my engine will see 6000 to often unless I miss a shift. LOL. Thanks for the advice.

Rev

rev, the cam is a summit with .471 lift int./ext with 218 intake duration and 228 exaust duration at .050 lift. the lobe separation is 114 for sounds good for a street cam. i definetly agree with you on the headers, he shouldnt have listened to the summit salesman, but he's new at this game. my mistake was not telling him to get the 351 cam....for some reason it works better in a 302 because of the firing order. the heads are shaved, not sure how much the machinist took off, but they have extremely small chambers to begin with. now i know a stock 5.0 has the same valve size as a 351w with larger chamber heads (61-64cc) so it seems the valve would be so close to the top of the bore that valve shrouding wouldnt be a problem. i know also that the runners on all stock small block fords(windsors) as well as the ports are the same size. there are flow variations between early model/smog heads but look at the ports on a 289 head and a 351w head....exactly the same size. the hi-po heads also have same ports. sorry about this being so wordy, i just think this car should have a lot more power than this, 9.6 in 1/8 for this car is sad.....a bone stock 5.0 is quicker with 2.73 gears/444 lift cam/and weighing 3200lbs. thanks for your replies.

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Ron1]

After looking at the 1/8 to 1/4 conversionn chart an 8.52 in the eights is pretty good. That equates to a 13.26. My 65 Coupe ran a best NA ever of a 12.82 with the TFS heads, Edel dual plane, and 750 CFM carb. Power steering, power brakes, 8.5 inch slicks. Leaving at 2500, lift on the shift, and shift at around 5400. BTW is the intake a dual or single plane? The rest of the Coupe specs are on my home page(if you are interested) too long too list. With the N2O it ran a 12.04...

Ron www.rfedd.bigstep.com

thanks ron, the car has a bone stock 100k long block with the e303 the only exception. im not happy with the 8.52 because the car can go 8.2-8.3 on this setup, ive seen it done with a stripped down fox chasis stang. after i get there im going to get the edelbrock rpm heads/harland sharp rollers. dont you think my brother in laws' car should be quicker? he's pi$$ed and i dont blame him. im trying to help him, he sees my car run and kinda looks for my advice but im not too sharp on cars with automatics. i know he's got to worry more about his ignition advance curve and carb. setup a lot more than i do. stick cars are easy, get your total timing in and jet your carb.....all done. educate me, ill field all comments on this one.

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Ron1]

You might try a manual valve body in the C4 and if you wanna launch a little harder get one with a Transbrake. That would also take a reverse pattern shifter. He could also incorporate a little higher stall converter. I launch my FB at 4600 RPM on the TB, because I want to be in the cam's powerband. You could tune yours so that you are in the powerband of your cam. Just a thought.

Ron

its a daily driver so im not sure if he'll want to modify it that much, but you know that stock t-shifter is kinda sloppy. we are looking at a tci 10 inch converter now with 3000-3500 stall. i was told that the car would choose to stall on the low rpm side of this converter because of the lack of torque out of this motor. does this sound right? i was also told that this stall would be very streetable for driving in town. does this sound right? i know the car goes 60mph right at 3000 rpm and everything i've read says dont pick a converter that stalls above your cruise rpm. should i post a new message on just this subject?

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67stang coupe, carb on 5.0, 4 speed, 4.11's....8.52 IN 1/8 @83 wanting 7's

[Rev]

That's exactly why I'm using a 2400 TCI. With your brother in laws 3.80 and a C-4, you're already at the ragged edge for cruising. I'm doing 3000 at 70 and I thought that was at the edge with my 3.25. One question. Is this just a strip car? Street/strip, or Saturday Night Special? You need a DynoJet run to see where you're at and then what else you need. If this is a street car, something else is wrong if you need a 3500 converter. my $.02.

Rev

------------------
'66 Coupe, 306, windage
tray, TRW flat tops, 351W
heads,pocket ported, 268
CC hydraulic cam, R tip
R's, Edelbrock Performer,
600 CFM Holley vac. secs.,
Mallory Unilite, coil, fuel
pump, Tri-Y headers, 2 1/2 "
custom pipes, 3 chamber
Flows, stock C-4, 3.25
Currie built 8" rear,
March under drive pulleys,
13.97 e.t., 100.1 mph
1/4 mi.

TCI 2400 stall converter
B&M Trans-pac shift kit
No new track times until
cool weather