few questions about 302 5.0 installation

[csunracer]

Ok everybody, as mentioned in a previous post of mine, i'm going to be installing a 5.0 302 block out of a 91 mustang into my 68 Coupe. My questions are related to miscellaneous parts I might need. So far I have the HO block, ported gt-40 P heads, ported edelbrock performer RPM manifold, motorsport f303 cam, and a holly 650 carb, and a water pump off of the 91. Aside from these part's im wondering if my original 302 parts from my 68 will still work on this application, specifically the harmonic balancer and motor mounts. Other than that I'm going to pick up a set of roller lifters out of a late model 5.0,some arp head bolts, and most likely some 1.6 roller rocker arms.I also plan on buying a set of mac long tube headers and re-doing the entire exhaust with 2 chambered flowmasters and turn downs. Does anybody have any suggestions or ideas before I put this beast together? Any help would be greatly appreciated. And if anybody has any spare parts for sale that I could possibly use please contact me (

[mustangman65_79]

I belive that u will need to buy a new type harmonic balancer because the one u have is a diff weight then the new ones. The motor mounts from the '68 will work though.

[csunracer]

I have one more question regarding this install. Will the factory distributor from the 68 block work with my new roller setup?

[Jeff65]

You can install your early v-belt drive accessories if you buy a conversion harmonic balancer. The one needed depends on whether you have three bolt crank pulley or four bolt. NPD carries this part (50 oz-in imbalance - your early harmonic is 28 oz-in imbalance and can't be used - however all the pulleys can).

With conversion harmonic. Change timing cover to early timing cover with fuel block off plate. Use electric fuel pump OR get conversion eccentric for cam and use early timing cover and mechanical fuel pump.

Note the heads have 7/16" bolt holes instead of 3/8". You'll have to rework some of the brackets and use spacers to get a good fit.

Alternatively, you can use all the serpentine stuff from the late model car.

I used v-belts and did the conversions above. It works fine and looks no different than an early 289/302 up front. I use '64 Galaxie 289 upper radiator hose because it fits better.

[csunracer]

Jeff65:
Thanks for the info. Let's assume I want to use a mechanical feul pump, what parts would I need to make this work? I also have access to the OEM distributor off of a 91 5.0, If possible I wanted to use this along with an MSD 6a and an MSD coil.

[Jeff65]

Originally posted by csunracer
Jeff65:
Thanks for the info. Let's assume I want to use a mechanical feul pump, what parts would I need to make this work? I also have access to the OEM distributor off of a 91 5.0, If possible I wanted to use this along with an MSD 6a and an MSD coil.

For mechanical fuel pump:

a. Timing cover. Use early timing cover with fuel pump boss. Notes: Ford Racing makes this cover expressly for 5.0L. If you use early cover you have to remove block pins aligning late cover. Use chisel to pop the block pins from the side. This will crack them and allow them to be easily withdrawn from the engine block. When using early cover be sure to get good crankshaft positioning before tightening the cover (since the alignment pins won't be there). Alternately you can have a machine shop drill out the two bolt holes giving recess for the block alignment pins. My advice is not to use the alignment pins with the early cover. I use the California Pony Cars reproduction timing cover on mine. This timing cover is available from NPD.

b. Fuel pump eccentric. There are three types I know of: factory thick, factory thin and aftermarket. The two factory eccentrics are exactly the same except for width of the part. Choice depends on the timing cover used. Some require the thin eccentric whereas others it doesn't matter. If the eccentric binds on the interior front of the timing cover, then shave it down or buy the thin one. Any Ford dealer parts counter can help you with this. Either of these requires a cam pin. Basically the eccentric bolts onto the cam gear and a pin sticking out of the front of the cam locks the gear and the eccentric from turning against the cam/cam gear. The 5.0L does not have a long enough cam pin to penetrate the eccentric, hence it must be replaced to use the factory eccentrics. A solution to this is the Total Performance fuel pump eccentric for small block Ford. This is a two piece item. When you first see it, one wonders if its any good. It is a lot thinner material than the factory item. It consists of a central eccentric with a metal tab that locks against the cam gear eliminating the need for the cam pin. It simply bolts on the front of the cam gear using the cam bolt and washer. This simplifies the installation. An outer ring rides on the eccentric and the arm of the fuel pump rides on it. The design is such there is no wear at all on the fuel pump arm for the outer ring of the eccentric does not turn even though the inner eccentric does - the outer just floats on the inner on a layer of oil. I have one of these in my engine and it works fine. If you want this item contact Total Performance, Clifford Township, MI (586) 468-3673, e-mail: totalperformance@ameritech.net

Okay, that about covers the fuel pump question. WRT your distributor question, the '91 distributor uses a module plugged into the side and to be honest, I don't know how it connects to your MSD. I believe the MSD wiring instructions tell you how and perhaps they make a harness especially for the Duraspark distributor. Contact MSD. An alternative is to use a Mallory Unilite distributor to fire your MSD. In this case, the one you want is part number 4770401. See your Summit Racing or Jegs catalog. Again, follow wiring instructions provided by Mallory or MSD.

BTW, once upon a time, I lived in Granada Hills and had a girlfriend living in Chatsworth. I was there last Fall for a high school reunion for GHHS. I know your neighborhood fairly well although its grown a lot since I lived there. When I was there, the only business was a grain-feed store along Devonshire.

[David Fulford]

I may be wrong but if you use the water pump from the serpentine system with the v-belt pulleys, it will be spinning the wrong direction for it to work.

I don't know if someone already answered this or not but I used a distributor from an old engine in a crate motor so your old distributor should work.

[David Fulford]

One more thing I noticed, when I did my conversion, I was originally going to keep my T-10 transmission and re-build it. Because of the old style flywheel in the T-10, a 28.5oz harmonic balancer needed to be used. When I decided to go with the T-5, I had to use the 50oz harmonic balance. So from what I understand you have to match the harmonic balance to the flywheel, not the engine. If your using an old transmission with old flywheel, the engine probably needs to have the 28.5 oz harmonic balance. Maybe I was mis-informed but when I did my motor swap, this is what I was told. Good luck with it.

[Jeff65]

Originally posted by David Fulford
I may be wrong but if you use the water pump from the serpentine system with the v-belt pulleys, it will be spinning the wrong direction for it to work.

I don't know if someone already answered this or not but I used a distributor from an old engine in a crate motor so your old distributor should work.

Serpentine is reverse rotation for factory serpentine belts - I have seen home brew serpentine systems using normal rotation water pumps but in this case the serpentine belt does not do the reverse wrap over the water pump, rather it is used like a v-belt.

There is a difference in distributor shaft length between 5.0L HO engines and early engines. The gear is also different. If you have true 5.0L with steel roller cam, then you also need the correct steel gear. Others including the early gear will eat themselves up in short order. I'm sure you could modify an early distributor to work but its simpler to use an aftermarket distributor made for the 5.0L engine. Everything you need comes in a ready to use package.

[Jeff65]

Originally posted by David Fulford
One more thing I noticed, when I did my conversion, I was originally going to keep my T-10 transmission and re-build it. Because of the old style flywheel in the T-10, a 28.5oz harmonic balancer needed to be used. When I decided to go with the T-5, I had to use the 50oz harmonic balance. So from what I understand you have to match the harmonic balance to the flywheel, not the engine. If your using an old transmission with old flywheel, the engine probably needs to have the 28.5 oz harmonic balance. Maybe I was mis-informed but when I did my motor swap, this is what I was told. Good luck with it.

Its the crankshaft that needs external balance. Early 302s and 351's are 28 oz-in imbalance and late 302's are 50 oz-in imbalance. This applies to both the harmonic and flywheel. Note that in the '80's, an overlap occurs so for 80's engines you have to be sure of what you've got. Prior to '81 there's no question you have early engine with 28 oz-in imbalance. After '87 there's no question you have 50 oz-in imbalance. Its in between that causes all the confusion. The in-betweens depend on car model the engine was originally installed in, e.g. truck, LTD, Mustang, etc.

Regards your engine my guess is when you did the T5 swap you used the 50 oz-in flywheel from a late donor car. If you did this, certainly you'd need the 50 oz-in harmonic to offset it. Can't say this is right or wrong, just that its unusual and depends on who rebuilt and balanced your engine and what components were used.

[David Fulford]

Steel gear aside, the distributor should work. My old block was from a 77 truck. I used that distibutor from it in my 302 gt-40 crate until I got the MSD and it worked fine.

[csunracer]

Thanks for all the helpful information guys. After reading the past posts, I have decided to use the stock water pump off of the 68 setup. So If i understand it correctly I should use a 50oz harmonic balancer if I am going to use the late model 5.0 block along with the early model flywheel and the original C4 trans. Another thing I'm wondering if any of you have used GT40-P heads on your classic stangs. I understand the sparkplug placement is a little different on these heads and requires special headers for this application. What I'm looking for is a good set of long tube headers, and an H-pipe to match. If I could find an h-pipe that would simply bolt in to a set of aftermarket long tubes that would make things a lot easier for me.

[David Fulford]

I have the 270HP crate motor with the GT-40 iron heads. I'm not sure if these are P heads but I don't have special headers. I just have heddman long tubes. I thought they were the P-heads though. Someone will probably correct me and tell me exactly which heads came on that motor. Anyway just thought I would throw that in there. You should be able to buy the correct headers from ford racing. Good luck with it. I'm pretty sure you will like the combo you have.

And do more research, I take the don't trust anybody approach when doing something big to my car, until I hear or read the same advice a couple of times. (Although Jeff65 seems to know his stuff.) Have a good one.

[csunracer]

Hey David. I might be wrong, but I think the reason the "p" heads are slightly different is because they were originally manufactured for use on explorers and the sparkplugs are angled slightly different than regular heads. As far as this setup goes, i know i'll love it, because it's nearly the same setup as in my 91 Drag mustang, and that thing flies :P In terms of the setup in your mustang, did you change your radiator? On my 91 I added a four core aluminum and was thinking of doing something similar. I also might swap out the fan for a newer flex fan as well.

[Jeff65]

Originally posted by David Fulford
I have the 270HP crate motor with the GT-40 iron heads. I'm not sure if these are P heads but I don't have special headers. I just have heddman long tubes. I thought they were the P-heads though. Someone will probably correct me and tell me exactly which heads came on that motor. Anyway just thought I would throw that in there. You should be able to buy the correct headers from ford racing. Good luck with it. I'm pretty sure you will like the combo you have.

And do more research, I take the don't trust anybody approach when doing something big to my car, until I hear or read the same advice a couple of times. (Although Jeff65 seems to know his stuff.) Have a good one.

"P" heads with straight plugs are used on the 215hp crate engine M-6007-P52. These heads require "P" type headers but some normal angled plug headers will fit. These heads are fitted with factory valves/springs.

"Y" heads with angled plugs are used on the 270hp crate engine M-6007-A52. These heads are fitted with larger GT40 valves/springs.

Both are cast iron. "Y" is the highest performance cast iron heads sold by FRPP. Higher level performance heads are cast aluminum "turbo swirl" design. The "Y" heads flow at higher rates than the "P" heads and about twice as high as early 289 heads.

[David Fulford]

Honestly, I'm not sure what radiator is in it now although by the condition it's in, it's not the original or anything that old. In sacrafice of performance, I don't have a fan clutch on it but I've never had any cooling problems so I've just left it alone. With my luck, as soon as I change the cooling system, it will overheat everytime I drive it. I do have a flex fan which should help performance a little bit. It's mostly a weekend cruiser, my street racing days are way over, so as long as it sounds fast, I'm happy.

[Jeff65]

I have and use 3-row radiator, 180 thermo, and FlowKooler water pump, six blade fan. Have a/c. No cooling problems.

[csunracer]

Ok guys, here's an update on my situation. I located somebody selling a roller conversion kit, with all the guide plates, lifters, timing chain,cam gear and hardware that I need. He also is selling a timing chain cover and harmonic balancer(from a late model 5.0) My question is, do I need the timing chain cover from a late model 5.0 since I am going to be running a roller setup, or can I use my factory cover off of my 68's block? And assuming this is a 50 oz balancer should I jump on it if it's a good price? I also located a set of headers that appear that they might work off of ebay. If anybody could please take a look at them and let me know if these would work in my situation i would greatly appreciate it. Here is the link below for the headers:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...405330395&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...406117374&rd=1
(here is another set I located)

[Jeff65]

The timing cover you select is based on whether you wish to use serpentine accessories or v-belt accessories. If you choose serpentine then you use the late cover, electric fuel pump, late harmonic (see below), reverse rotation water pump. Optionally you can use the factory crank trigger and electronic ignition system. If you choose v-belt then you use the early cover, fuel pump eccentric, fuel pump, early harmonic (see below), normal rotation water pump, distributor ignition (electronic or points).

Harmonic balancer. The selection of harmonic balancer depends on the crankshaft you use. If you use early then it needs to be a 28 oz-in imbalance harmonic and if you use late then it needs to be a 50 oz-in imbalance harmonic. In addition, the harmonic must be drilled and configured for the pulley system you use. If you narrow down what you want to do, then my advice can get more specific. Right now, I'm not sure where you are going with your project.

[Jeff65]

Regards headers, JBA shorties did not fit my '65. They collided with the steering gear and the output on the left side was aimed directly at the clutch z-bar equalizer. They just didn't fit. Note that the headers seen in your picture look hammer banged to make them clear the steering gear. They may work okay in the following situations: no power steering, rack and pinion steering installed and cable clutch linkage or automatic trans. Otherwise I'd steer clear of bargain headers. The likely reason they're for sale is they didn't fit properly.