Steering and Braking Help!!!

67 Demon · 07-22-2003, 09:21 PM

I have a few questions that i hope you members can help me with. I apologize beforehand if i ask too many questions.

First, i am wanting to convert my stock manual steering system to a much more efficient, easier one. I have been told by a mechanic that i trust to look for a rack and pinion steering system. I have found some but really dont feel like spending $1K+. My other option i assume is to get a quick ratio steering box. I found one through a company called Flaming River. That steering box is $399 and significantly cheaper and has a steering ratio of 16:1. Can ANYONE please give me feedback/info into pros and cons of each system. I dont know what the steering ratio is for the rack and pinion, and is a racka nd pinion NEEDED or can i get away with the quick steering box? With the quick steering box, will i need other components?

My next question involves a drum to disc brake conversion kit. What is the major advantage/difference between manual and power disc brakes? Also, i realiize that it is possible to swap out Granada (and other cars) brakes into the Mustang for a fairly cheap price, but what is the cheapest price you have found on a conversion kit? The cheapest i have found is about $725.

Thank you for ALL of your help. I would REALLY like to get my Mustang on the road again and give my new toy a rest!

Jeff65 · 07-23-2003, 04:22 PM

1. The Flaming River replacement gearbox is a good one and gives like new steering performance for classic Mustangs when replaced on a car with otherwise good suspension components. What I'm saying here is everything else has to be up to snuff as well. The FR system is equivalent to the OEM factory steering box (recirculating ball) and while acceptable is not as positive and tight as modern rack and pinion steering. TCP's rack and pinion is expensive and it is an improvement over the stock reciprocating ball steering gear. Since I don't road race my car, I selected the FR gearbox over the TCP...simple economics. One is $400 the other is $2,500. I'm happy with the results.

2. One of the disadvantages of disc brakes is the high forces requirement to operate them. This requirement is mitigated by the use of vaccuum boosters. Both systems work acceptably but the power system is much more akin to modern cars in that the effort to apply the brakes is considerably reduced. Its a matter of what you want to pay for. I think the Wilwood Brake conversion kit is the best deal. It can be found for less than $500 and is a good kit. I think it requires 15" wheels and widens the track of the car about 1/2". If you're looking for a 14" system, Stainless Steel Brake Corp has one. Its a bit more like the price you quoted. While you could go with the Granada set up, its mostly home brew and you can run into more installation problems, finding good parts and making sure they're safe to use. The Granada approach is good only if you have better than average mechanical skills and have some patience. For this you save a few bucks.

67 Demon · 07-23-2003, 07:43 PM

Hey Jeff thanks alot for your reply. Now maybe you can help me out once again. I just came back from a local Classic Mustang shop and asked them the same questions i presented to this forum.

First, the guy told me that the FR replacement gearbox was not a good box because it would still make my steering difficult for the type of driving i want to do. BTW, i want my car to be more like a weekend warrior and an occasional car i can drive to work without killing myself in turning the car or trying to get it to stop. Yes i would like performance out of it, but more of an occasional driver. So what he proposed was that he could "rebuild" my stock one into a "powered" (power steering) box. He said it would run me about $250 for him to do that. Does that make any sense???? He also told me that if i went to the rack and pinion system that it would SIGNIFICANTLY depreciate the value of my car. I'm not trying to sell it or anything, but i figured it would keep its value strong enough with or without the rack.

Now about the brakes, he told me he it would run me about $975 or something like that. I just looked on the Wilwood website and the closest thing i could find to the price you mentioned was the Medium Duty front brake kit, part number 140-4307-B for $517. Is this the kit you have? And if so, what other parts would i need so that i could "bolt" it up to my car. I dont know jack about brakes Thanks once again for your help. I like the reading of the Willwood system. Thanks again for your time!!!

gofastmercury · 07-24-2003, 12:23 AM

Converting a ford box to power would be a trick I'd like to see. Ford used a power assisted system, using a ram to move the centerlink. Not that good with kinda sloppy feedback.

By the way what kind of car is this? I assumed it was a mustang??

67 Demon · 07-24-2003, 06:34 AM

Yes i it is a 67' Mustang Fastback, 289 C code, 3 spd man.

gofastmercury, what would be your opinion (in terms of product) for me to transition from manual to power steering? I am looking for the obvious things such as affordability, quality, and general ease of using the system, etc.

Also, i forgot to mention, is it important to purchase a steering system that will be compatable considering that i have a manual tranny as opposed to an auto? Hope that makes sense. It was another thing the person at the shop told me.

Jeff65 · 07-24-2003, 08:37 AM

"First, the guy told me that the FR replacement gearbox was not a good box"

This is mostly bull because the FR box is a good, improved, recirculating ball gearbox. Like all recirculating ball gears it has some hysteresis meaning that it has a dead band in the center that reduces driver road feel. It is typical of '60's automotive technology and is/was the type used in Shelby Mustangs of that era.

"because it would still make my steering difficult for the type of driving i want to do.:

Vintage racers are still driving cars with these kind of steering gearboxes. They have good road feel but not excellent.

"BTW, i want my car to be more like a weekend warrior and an occasional car i can drive to work without killing myself in turning the car or trying to get it to stop. Yes i would like performance out of it, but more of an occasional driver."

Flaming Rivers gearbox is a satisfactory answer to your problem.

"So what he proposed was that he could "rebuild" my stock one into a "powered" (power steering) box. He said it would run me about $250 for him to do that. Does that make any sense????"

No. Adding power steering of the kind he can do for $250 only gives you used power steering components off a same generation Mustang. It will have lighter forces but not better steering response.

" He also told me that if i went to the rack and pinion system that it would SIGNIFICANTLY depreciate the value of my car. I'm not trying to sell it or anything, but i figured it would keep its value strong enough with or without the rack."

Any retrofit carries the stigma of being a deviation from OEM design. It affects the authenticity of your classic car. OTOH, well designed retrofits can improve performance of your car in a manner never imagined by the original designers. Theres a percentage of future buyers that it would turn off, again theres a percentage of future buyers that it would turn on. Only you can decide what you want now and what you want in the future. Note that should you want a rack and pinion now but want originality you can save the removed parts for future conversion back to the OEM configuration, its not that big a deal.

"Now about the brakes, he told me he it would run me about $975 or something like that. I just looked on the Wilwood website and the closest thing i could find to the price you mentioned was the Medium Duty front brake kit, part number 140-4307-B for $517. Is this the kit you have? And if so, what other parts would i need so that i could "bolt" it up to my car. I dont know jack about brakes"

One of my associates said this about his '66 Mustang coupe and I quote, "We bought the Wilwood kit, and everything bolted up slick as can be...its so easy to change pads you wouldn't believe it. The only thing thats hard about it is forming the lines to get a good looking installation."

My advice is to read up about the Wilwood system. There are installation hiccups...you gotta have acceptable wheels/tires to get requisite clearances, etc. Wilwood is also not DOT approved so you'll be trusting the name and reputation of the company and not a government authority. If you think DOT sanctioning is crucial, then go with the SSS system. Theirs is a perfect replica of the original Ford brake system. Insofar as I know, it is DOT approved.

gofastmercury · 07-27-2003, 11:42 PM

Honestly, I think the manual steering is the best way. IF you get a GOOD wheel alignment, on for manual cars( yes there different!)
Make sure EVERYTHING is tight, have the right offset wheels for your car (not for just the biggest, but making sure the scrub radius is in the right spot). If you do this the car should be able to steer while parking and be responsive going down the road. The draw back is too many turns lock to lock.

I have a big block Ranchero, converted to manual, too big front tires, small steering wheel, still has the power alignment in it, and my wife can drive it. Can't parallel park it, but can get around in it.
But because of all that, once its moving, it very tight, only 3 turns lock to lock, very nice feel. But even I have a hard time parking it.

Not the answer your looking for, but another opinion. You will have to deside what YOU need out that car.

rbohm · 07-28-2003, 12:33 PM

if you decide you want power rack and pinion steering, i have a link on my laptop to the site of a guy who worked for mustang illustrated, and did a taurus rack install on his 70 convertable. it will work on your 67 as the settups are basically the same. for brakes he used the granada front brakes. www.chepsk8.stangnet.com
check out his website.

Rev · 07-28-2003, 08:09 PM

I adjusted my old steering box to tighten it up some, (see previous threads). Did do a complete steering (recirculatinng ball) rebuild, with a suspension rebuild too), All with the same readjusted box.

With my car's new (relatively) suspension and steering, one would be hard pressed to improve on cornering or handling.

I do have Granada front disks from Jim's Mustang (mostly new patrts, $600), from El Cajon, Ca., and a power brakes system from National Parts Depot, ($450).

I did pay twice for that MC because I bought it twice for different applications. My fault there. Everything works well now. Any questions are welcome.

Note: I also use Praise Dyno front pads and rear shoes as well as their rear brake hardware (springs , etc.). Pricey, but "you pay's for what you get's". Sometimes , anyways.

Rev

07-22-2003, 09:21 PM	#1
67 Demon Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 12	Steering and Braking Help!!! I have a few questions that i hope you members can help me with. I apologize beforehand if i ask too many questions. First, i am wanting to convert my stock manual steering system to a much more efficient, easier one. I have been told by a mechanic that i trust to look for a rack and pinion steering system. I have found some but really dont feel like spending $1K+. My other option i assume is to get a quick ratio steering box. I found one through a company called Flaming River. That steering box is $399 and significantly cheaper and has a steering ratio of 16:1. Can ANYONE please give me feedback/info into pros and cons of each system. I dont know what the steering ratio is for the rack and pinion, and is a racka nd pinion NEEDED or can i get away with the quick steering box? With the quick steering box, will i need other components? My next question involves a drum to disc brake conversion kit. What is the major advantage/difference between manual and power disc brakes? Also, i realiize that it is possible to swap out Granada (and other cars) brakes into the Mustang for a fairly cheap price, but what is the cheapest price you have found on a conversion kit? The cheapest i have found is about $725. Thank you for ALL of your help. I would REALLY like to get my Mustang on the road again and give my new toy a rest!

07-24-2003, 12:23 AM	#4
gofastmercury Registered Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: calgary alberta canada Posts: 366	Converting a ford box to power would be a trick I'd like to see. Ford used a power assisted system, using a ram to move the centerlink. Not that good with kinda sloppy feedback. By the way what kind of car is this? I assumed it was a mustang?? __________________ 93LXcopcarSOLD14.3@96 @ 4500ft 2.02 60ft on street tires. my 67 ranchero NOT A 390 ANY MORE! 460! 3.70's cast manifolds, comp cams 262H, performer, 750DP 100K out of 79 F250 NEW(oct20/02)14.58@95mph 2.3 60 ft corrects to:13.86@100 66 merc comet351w, isky roller 600 lift 268/260@.050, vic jr. 700DP, 5000stall, 4.56's c-4, 3400lbs with driver 12.3@110 @ 4000ft 1.69 60 ft corrects to:11.69@115

07-27-2003, 11:42 PM	#7
gofastmercury Registered Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: calgary alberta canada Posts: 366	Honestly, I think the manual steering is the best way. IF you get a GOOD wheel alignment, on for manual cars( yes there different!) Make sure EVERYTHING is tight, have the right offset wheels for your car (not for just the biggest, but making sure the scrub radius is in the right spot). If you do this the car should be able to steer while parking and be responsive going down the road. The draw back is too many turns lock to lock. I have a big block Ranchero, converted to manual, too big front tires, small steering wheel, still has the power alignment in it, and my wife can drive it. Can't parallel park it, but can get around in it. But because of all that, once its moving, it very tight, only 3 turns lock to lock, very nice feel. But even I have a hard time parking it. Not the answer your looking for, but another opinion. You will have to deside what YOU need out that car. __________________ 93LXcopcarSOLD14.3@96 @ 4500ft 2.02 60ft on street tires. my 67 ranchero NOT A 390 ANY MORE! 460! 3.70's cast manifolds, comp cams 262H, performer, 750DP 100K out of 79 F250 NEW(oct20/02)14.58@95mph 2.3 60 ft corrects to:13.86@100 66 merc comet351w, isky roller 600 lift 268/260@.050, vic jr. 700DP, 5000stall, 4.56's c-4, 3400lbs with driver 12.3@110 @ 4000ft 1.69 60 ft corrects to:11.69@115

07-28-2003, 12:33 PM	#8
rbohm Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: tucson,az/luray,va Posts: 243	if you decide you want power rack and pinion steering, i have a link on my laptop to the site of a guy who worked for mustang illustrated, and did a taurus rack install on his 70 convertable. it will work on your 67 as the settups are basically the same. for brakes he used the granada front brakes. www.chepsk8.stangnet.com check out his website. __________________ define irony: a bunch of idiots on a plane, dancing to a song made famous, by a band who died in a plane crash. fordsix.com admin

07-28-2003, 08:09 PM	#9
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	What I did I adjusted my old steering box to tighten it up some, (see previous threads). Did do a complete steering (recirculatinng ball) rebuild, with a suspension rebuild too), All with the same readjusted box. With my car's new (relatively) suspension and steering, one would be hard pressed to improve on cornering or handling. I do have Granada front disks from Jim's Mustang (mostly new patrts, $600), from El Cajon, Ca., and a power brakes system from National Parts Depot, ($450). I did pay twice for that MC because I bought it twice for different applications. My fault there. Everything works well now. Any questions are welcome. Note: I also use Praise Dyno front pads and rear shoes as well as their rear brake hardware (springs , etc.). Pricey, but "you pay's for what you get's". Sometimes , anyways. Rev __________________ '66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 07-28-2003 at 08:54 PM..

07-23-2003, 04:22 PM	#2
Jeff65 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 208	1. The Flaming River replacement gearbox is a good one and gives like new steering performance for classic Mustangs when replaced on a car with otherwise good suspension components. What I'm saying here is everything else has to be up to snuff as well. The FR system is equivalent to the OEM factory steering box (recirculating ball) and while acceptable is not as positive and tight as modern rack and pinion steering. TCP's rack and pinion is expensive and it is an improvement over the stock reciprocating ball steering gear. Since I don't road race my car, I selected the FR gearbox over the TCP...simple economics. One is $400 the other is $2,500. I'm happy with the results. 2. One of the disadvantages of disc brakes is the high forces requirement to operate them. This requirement is mitigated by the use of vaccuum boosters. Both systems work acceptably but the power system is much more akin to modern cars in that the effort to apply the brakes is considerably reduced. Its a matter of what you want to pay for. I think the Wilwood Brake conversion kit is the best deal. It can be found for less than $500 and is a good kit. I think it requires 15" wheels and widens the track of the car about 1/2". If you're looking for a 14" system, Stainless Steel Brake Corp has one. Its a bit more like the price you quoted. While you could go with the Granada set up, its mostly home brew and you can run into more installation problems, finding good parts and making sure they're safe to use. The Granada approach is good only if you have better than average mechanical skills and have some patience. For this you save a few bucks.

07-23-2003, 07:43 PM	#3
67 Demon Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 12	Hey Jeff thanks alot for your reply. Now maybe you can help me out once again. I just came back from a local Classic Mustang shop and asked them the same questions i presented to this forum. First, the guy told me that the FR replacement gearbox was not a good box because it would still make my steering difficult for the type of driving i want to do. BTW, i want my car to be more like a weekend warrior and an occasional car i can drive to work without killing myself in turning the car or trying to get it to stop. Yes i would like performance out of it, but more of an occasional driver. So what he proposed was that he could "rebuild" my stock one into a "powered" (power steering) box. He said it would run me about $250 for him to do that. Does that make any sense???? He also told me that if i went to the rack and pinion system that it would SIGNIFICANTLY depreciate the value of my car. I'm not trying to sell it or anything, but i figured it would keep its value strong enough with or without the rack. Now about the brakes, he told me he it would run me about $975 or something like that. I just looked on the Wilwood website and the closest thing i could find to the price you mentioned was the Medium Duty front brake kit, part number 140-4307-B for $517. Is this the kit you have? And if so, what other parts would i need so that i could "bolt" it up to my car. I dont know jack about brakes Thanks once again for your help. I like the reading of the Willwood system. Thanks again for your time!!!

07-24-2003, 06:34 AM	#5
67 Demon Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 12	Yes i it is a 67' Mustang Fastback, 289 C code, 3 spd man. gofastmercury, what would be your opinion (in terms of product) for me to transition from manual to power steering? I am looking for the obvious things such as affordability, quality, and general ease of using the system, etc. Also, i forgot to mention, is it important to purchase a steering system that will be compatable considering that i have a manual tranny as opposed to an auto? Hope that makes sense. It was another thing the person at the shop told me.

07-24-2003, 08:37 AM	#6
Jeff65 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 208	"First, the guy told me that the FR replacement gearbox was not a good box" This is mostly bull because the FR box is a good, improved, recirculating ball gearbox. Like all recirculating ball gears it has some hysteresis meaning that it has a dead band in the center that reduces driver road feel. It is typical of '60's automotive technology and is/was the type used in Shelby Mustangs of that era. "because it would still make my steering difficult for the type of driving i want to do.: Vintage racers are still driving cars with these kind of steering gearboxes. They have good road feel but not excellent. "BTW, i want my car to be more like a weekend warrior and an occasional car i can drive to work without killing myself in turning the car or trying to get it to stop. Yes i would like performance out of it, but more of an occasional driver." Flaming Rivers gearbox is a satisfactory answer to your problem. "So what he proposed was that he could "rebuild" my stock one into a "powered" (power steering) box. He said it would run me about $250 for him to do that. Does that make any sense????" No. Adding power steering of the kind he can do for $250 only gives you used power steering components off a same generation Mustang. It will have lighter forces but not better steering response. " He also told me that if i went to the rack and pinion system that it would SIGNIFICANTLY depreciate the value of my car. I'm not trying to sell it or anything, but i figured it would keep its value strong enough with or without the rack." Any retrofit carries the stigma of being a deviation from OEM design. It affects the authenticity of your classic car. OTOH, well designed retrofits can improve performance of your car in a manner never imagined by the original designers. Theres a percentage of future buyers that it would turn off, again theres a percentage of future buyers that it would turn on. Only you can decide what you want now and what you want in the future. Note that should you want a rack and pinion now but want originality you can save the removed parts for future conversion back to the OEM configuration, its not that big a deal. "Now about the brakes, he told me he it would run me about $975 or something like that. I just looked on the Wilwood website and the closest thing i could find to the price you mentioned was the Medium Duty front brake kit, part number 140-4307-B for $517. Is this the kit you have? And if so, what other parts would i need so that i could "bolt" it up to my car. I dont know jack about brakes" One of my associates said this about his '66 Mustang coupe and I quote, "We bought the Wilwood kit, and everything bolted up slick as can be...its so easy to change pads you wouldn't believe it. The only thing thats hard about it is forming the lines to get a good looking installation." My advice is to read up about the Wilwood system. There are installation hiccups...you gotta have acceptable wheels/tires to get requisite clearances, etc. Wilwood is also not DOT approved so you'll be trusting the name and reputation of the company and not a government authority. If you think DOT sanctioning is crucial, then go with the SSS system. Theirs is a perfect replica of the original Ford brake system. Insofar as I know, it is DOT approved.

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