what to do... 289,302, or 351

[66 Racer]

Hey,

Well guys, i have been playing with the idea of looking into putting a 351W in my 66 stang. Is that a some what resanable project or is there major modification to the car that will be needed to be done.

Since i need a rebuild i was thinking of just "upgrading" heh heh, to say the least. The thing is that i just put a new 2.5in exaust system and dont want to have to put a 3in setup for a 351. Basically guys, i want to know if you were in my situation would you go for a crate engine 302 w/alum heads, or crate 351W.

On the other hand should i just stick with my 289 and max it out.How much cubic in. could i get out of it? I know a 302 is the same block, so i know i can at least get that. Also how much HP and torque could i get out of a 289 fully modified. If i stick with my 289, which i seem to be leaning to since i just put new headers and exaust for it, i plan on putting edel heads, intake, and cam, but what else can i put in it to get extreme power. I want to break 300hp, and 350 if possible which i dont know if a 289 could do.

I would also like to go the more economical rout, like if i could get 350hp with a crate 302 for $4000 compared to 350hp with my current block for even more money while having a spare engine if i get the crate engine. Basically i want to have a dream engine at no expense but want to save money where i can. In 4 months i should hopefully have a $4,000 budget for my engine alone.

Thanks guys,

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Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

[Gearhead999]

I have been thinking along similar lines. I bought and built a 351W stroker to 426. Was going to install it in my 68 FB. Now, I changed my mind. Hood clearance is a problem. Don't want to run anything but a factory hood. No scoops either. And just plain everything is different underhood. Car is my toy. Not driven much.

Now, I am thinking about going to 347 stroked 302 which will fit under hood and fit my P/S, A/C and exhaust.

I'll be reading, see what everyone else has to say.

[stretchx1]

it's up to you you want a street or strip i've got a 67 fastback 289 10/1 pst 3/4 cam heads with over size valves 650 holley from light to light it's good on hi/way 2800rpm at 65mph

i have a 302 in my oops gave it to my son last week it's bored 30 over aluminum slug's 4 v heads headers 2.5 exh flows 4-speed $ 70 mach 1 rear end it's fast & has ac & 2 barrel carb so do what you want i personally like the 351 w but it's your ride go for what you want good luck

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[66 Racer]

Like most guys here, im power hungry and the 351 im sure would be what i want. The thing is that i dont have any way of getting the engine out. I dont know anyone with one either, so most likly Im going to have to take it to a shop to get it done. Labor im sure is going to be a bi+ch and this would have been a project i would have like to get done myself, Im gonna see if i can meet the right people out here where i just moved, I have never done an engine pull so i would need some help. Either way, i have like 4 months to get all this figured out. By then i'll have the $$$ and hopefully someone that can help me out.

About purchasing a 351, i think going new is what i would want, and the only place i have seen selling them is Mustang+ and they have it for like $5,000. It sounds good, but is there anywhere else that has it at a better price, or sells them more beefed up as a crate engine?

Thanks guys

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Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

[Gearhead999]

Very simple engine to swap. And I'm sure you can rent an engine crane there.

[Power]

This is post is of deep interest to me as I'm facing the exact same decision. I however was leaning toward the 351. Does anybody know if I will run into clearance probs with my narrower 66 engine bay? If so, how bad of a clearnance problem? Will I be able to fix it fairly easy?

[This message has been edited by Power (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Gearhead999]

351W is 1 1/2 inches wider. Will get tight around the spring towers. You'll need special headers, made for the 351W swap into an early Mustang. Other then that, no problem.

[jwboner]

My headers slightly rub the shock towers with a 302 block the same as when it had the 289. I too wanted the 351 but found that it wouldn't fit even with conversion headers. I guess it was in a few fender benders over the years or might have just settled a little closer, though my car has had a hard life. Two owners ago it was a full drag car and still has many of the mods left over on the street including slightly bent sheet metal here-and-there. Most cars it's not a problem but make sure it can handle it before spending the money on an engine that may not fit.

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65 fastback
347 DFI injected, TFS heads, T5, 4.11 9", tc subframe conns, torq thrust D's
A little history lesson using today's tech.

[69PonyRider]

Dude, i say just go for the 351, might be a little more money, but worth the power. Besides the 302 is not much different than the 289, which you already have. Hey, and maybe the shop where you got the exhaust, might exchange the headers, hahaha, maybe not. well latez

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351 Cleveland engine, 4-barrel Holley carb, Edelbrock alum intake, MSD ign, 2 chmbr flowmaster, C4 tranny, on a 69 coupe ...........UNDER CONSTRUCTION

[66 Racer]

gearhead999---

I also posted this topic in 2 other message boards which got a lot of informative information. Go to stangnet.com and mustangsandmore.com to check the page put. They are both under the same title and are in the classic mustang section. I have the same name on both sites so if you cant find it just hit a search.

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Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

[DJs350H]

I think this subject could use a little bit different approach. I've noticed a lot of people saying to go ahead and put the 351 in the car. Well I think maybe you should consider keeping the 289.

Think about it for a sec....they build Racing 289 engines for vintage racing that see 8,000 rpms and make 500 horsepower reliably without super exotic components! Of course they pay for the labor and r&d! But see..... http://www.cobraautomotive.com/
for reference. The potential for power in a 289 is only limited to your budget. And if you hop up your 289 engine this time, and decide later that you want more power, you can bolt on some more parts. And by keeping the 289, you don't have to spend any more money on swap components that aren't going to do a darn thing for horsepower!

Get some good advice from a race engine builder, and tell him about your horsepower goals, budget, and future plans. All you need to do is select the right components, then you can easily meet your budget and power levels. You can always spend more money and bolt on some more parts later.

Maybe now you can opt to spend a good portion of your budget on a beefed up short block--with a good stroker kit, cam, and intake. A 289 can be stroked like a 302 to 347 cubes, and the max over bore depending on your cooling system and block strength upgrades is 0.060" for a total of 352 cubes! Can you say lightweight Windsor without the weight and size/swap problems! Forget the Windsor! Then you can spend the rest of your money on the top half of the engine. Later on you can bolt on some more exotic parts like alumminum heads, or have some port and polish work done, or put a roller cam and roller rockers in, or do an ignition upgrade....whatever.

A solid stroked 289 will get you close to your power goals alone, and the rest is up to the head and cam choices you make, and the machinework and builder choices. That is what engine builders get paid for!

I had the original 289 rebuilt awhile ago. I had the stock heads freshened, 0.040" forged aluminum pistons installed, a performance cam and kit installed, a Holley 600 cfm carb upgrade and rebulid, a Mallory Distributor (not reccomended--try MSD instead), a Cobra Hi-Rise intake, and a full custom exhaust. After awhile I wasn't that impressed with the power, and later on I screwed up some pistons and valves when I over revved it.

I took my engine to a reputable race engine shop, and have been going pretty crazy for power ever since. You would be amazed at what experience can do to guide you! My budget is a bit larger than yours, but I think you can reach your goal with your budget. Just let them know exactly what you want, any builder worth a darns should be able to give you the skinny!

Here is my plan for example...
It's getting a SCAT Stroker kit--4340 Forged Crank, 302 Main, 3.400" Stroke, 5.400" Forged H Beam Rods and 4.060" Bore Forged JE/SRP Pistons. The forged Scat 4340 crank, and forged H-beam rods will make the 289 a 347 Stroker, and the 0.060 JE/SRP pistons should make for about 352 CI total. I am also installing Total Seal Rings, a full Lunati Roller camshaft conversion (but they are going to custom grind a cam for me for max power), Crane 1.73 Roller Rockers, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge Heads (ported and polished the heads to match the cam and intake), a Cobra Hi-rise intake (ported and polished to match the heads and cam), a Canton 7 qt. road race pan and windage tray, custom full length headers, a Barry Grant carb, a MSD Billet Distributor, a MSD Digital 6 Ignition (and possibly a MSD Multi-Function Ignition Controller for a complete custom curve), MSD Superconductor wires, a Billet steel flywheel, a Lakewood scattershiled, a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, an Edelbrock aluminum water pump, March pulleys, and a bunch of machine work for strength. Oh, and everything is ARP!

I'm expecting 350 horsepower easy, and possibly over the 450 mark. But I could have been a lot more conservative with my component choices. I'm also planning to put in a pretty hefty nitrous system.

Just get the best components you can afford for the short block, and add the rest later when you get more $$$. I'm a poor college kid...I know...and I'm serious about spending money and making horsepower. Don't be afraid to wait out the project for more $$$ to get it just right...you know, get exactly what you want! And don't sweat the engine swap.....a good manual, some tools, and a rented engine hoist will do the trick!

[66 Racer]

DJs350H---

Thanks for that information, it has by far been the best reply i have gotten. From the other message boards i have already desided to stick with the 289. You were the first guy though that actually explained how i could get that major power out of my 289. The article in Hot Rod magazine was also very inspirering, they got 352HP dont remember torque, out of a 289 bored over to i believe 292ci with 2barrel and 87 octane gas.

So far this Im planning to give it a basic tune up, which i know it needs, but first choice in parts would be aluminum heads, looking torwards edelbrock but wanted to look into world as well. With the heads at the same time i wanted to get Crane 1.6 roller rockers but not desided yet on the pushrods, cam, or lifter set up.

I had a question about the rocker and lifter setup though. Would roller rockers such as the gold anodized crane ones be a straight bolt on part or do they need any other components. Also is it worth getting roller rockers if i dont get hydrolic roller lifters as well?

Any suggestions on Cam and lifter setups would be great! Im planning on getting the heads, pushrods, rockers, cam, and lifters and the same time, so a complete setup for maximum performance would be appriciated. The only parts im pretty serious about getting are Edelbrock heads and crane roller rockers.

Thanks guys

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Under Construction 66 Coupe
-289 V8 - 600cfm Holley -Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust, Centerforce Dual Friction

[Ron1]

DJs350H....I like your combination (I just finished a 347 with the Edelbrock heads and intake instead of TFS) but the .060 over block has me concerned. In view of the fact that you are planning a healthy shot of N2O you might reconsider and go with a new 302 block and go .030 over. It will handle about 550-600 horse even with a main girdle and windage tray, but .060 over...a bit scary. IMO.

Ron

[Gearhead999]

I run a 289 with a .060 overbore. Had to do it to clean it up. It is pretty strong. Roller cam, ported heads, forged pistons, headers and dual AFB's.

Runs a tad hot, but not REAL hot. If I could of at the time, but didn't cause I wanted to finish the car, I would of found another block.

[Ron1]

Your 289 may be OK, but he mentioned N2O...lets say 100 or 150 shot. If he achieves 400 horse and ads 150 of N2O that would be 550 horse. That's walking a real fine line.

Just my opinion...having run N2O for about 6 years now, I have seen what it can do.

Ron

[DJs350H]

I am glad my reply could be of assistance to you!

I was thinking about your question regarding the roller rockers, and the cam suggestions. I've seen them install roller rockers by themselves on modern 5.0s (which have roller cams) that saw a worthwhile increase in horsepower, so alone the rockers must count for something with their decrease in friction. So I think roller rockers are a pretty safe bet. Plus, you can reuse the rockers if you get a roller cam down the line--that is what I did. I was running the rockers with a hydraulic cam.

As for straight bolt on, probably not the Crane rockers. The 1.73 Rockers (and probably similarly sized 1.6) are pretty big. They didn't fit under my open letter Cobra valve covers at all. So I bought a set of proper matching 1" spacers from Tony D. Branda Shelby and Mustangs (which looked ugly underneath the valvecovers) and the rockers seemed to fit fine underneath, but later on I discovered they were rubbing the edges. So check clearances if you go the spacer route, and grind the spacers accordingly (there was plenty of material to remove).

But what I ended up doing was springing the $$$ for the Raised open letter Cobra aluminum valve covers from Tony D. Branda (which looked great), and are made to clear roller rockers. But even if you go this route, check clearences as well to be safe. You don't want to see chunks taken out of your rockers--ask me how I know.

As for cam choices....I know edelbrock does a lot of R&D on their products--and its easy to find out from them what power levels you can from bolting on their specific components. If you want to go with Edelbrock heads, they've already gone through the trouble of designing cams and intakes to match them. So that would be one avenue to explore.

Other than that I would suggest getting a cam ground for your application. But if that is a bit pricey, I would sit down with some software or an engine builder with Ford PERFORMANCE experience to pick one--they usually have some good ideas as they've seen some pretty good examples. Crane, Comp Cams, and Lunati make some good products. And I know Crane makes a full roller coversion if your interested, and so does Lunati, but pricing is standard for a roller--$$$. But I think it's worth it...

.......As for the 0.060" overbore, Ron, I certainly understand and appreciate your concern. You are right to be cautiou! I had to do it to clean up the bores, and my engine guy said it would be fine--even though all the mags don't really agree. It should be fine with all the nauturally aspirated power that will be available, but you're right I may be pushing it a bit with a hefty shot of nitrous.

My engine guy gave me the green light to mess with the gass, but we haven't discussed how much yet. But all the internals are forged, and all the bolts are upgraded to ARP, and the bottom end is getting strengthened. The only thing I have to worry about is a block crack....which I will avoid smartly!

But I don't think I'll hit the nitrous for awhile after the block is back in, and the car is on the road. I'll probably only use it at the track too, or on some ego building dyno runs! I've got some serious suspension and drivetrain strengthening to do anyway. And I want this rebuild to last for awhile. So I'm going to get one of those tunable dual shot sytems, so I can take it easy....or poor it on if ever I get courageous enough

Oh, and I am making the proper cooling system upgrades too i.e. Edelbrock water pump, Aluminum radiator, and high flow thermo! Hopefully she'll run just right...

Dan

[Ron1]

Good idea on the tunable system for the N2O. I installed the NOS Progressive Controller that is not only time based, but level based as well. Since the motor is fairly new, so far I have tried only a 100 horse, and finally tuned it down to having the whole 100 on launch, and staying on 100 throughout the pass. Very favorable results. Next week...100 on launch, another 100 dialed in over 6 seconds (saves on a second set of solenoid, not only money but space). BTW... as far as power out of the 347, it made 604.6 HP at 7400 and 487 ft/lbs of torque at 5400...no power adders.

Ron

[DJs350H]

Wow Ron,

I am totally impressed with your power numbers. So what exactly do you have in your engine? I was wondering how my combo would compare, even though all the cam numbers and head flow numbers aren't determined yet. My engine guy has said an easy 350, but has said he'll find out more as he gets into it. I was hoping for some pretty impressive numbers (like mid to high 400s) with all that I've spent. Especially since he's setting it up with heads, intake, and a camshaft that will work well together.

I had some questions about N20 as well. I was thinking of a tunable dual shot....so are you saying if I get a progressive controller I won't have to buy two selenoids? I'm just starting to learn about this stuff.

How does the dual shot work without a controller? Just one shot, then another right by the driver? But the progressive controller does everyhting for you right in order to help fight traction problems and add power at the right times?

Also, I was thinking about getting the intake plumbed for a direct port shot, and the stealth look. Have you heard about the benifits of doing it this way as oppossed to a plate system? And is it easy to change jets this way? And how do you tune this way?

Thanks,
Dan

[Ron1]

Dan, Just a 302 (R302 block), 347 stroker kit from jds performance in Florida. Eagle H beams, forged crank, Ross domed pistons, Edelbrock Victor jr heads (stage II) and intake that is port matched to the heads. BG 850 carb. Cam is a solid roller. .702/.712 lift at 272/275 dur. @.050. MSD 6 AL, CSI elec w/p, Canton 7 quart pan, Taylor 10.4 mm wires, Jacobs Ultracoil, fuel system is a BG400 that feeds both the nitrous and n/a side thru a Magnaflow and BG 2 port regulator.
The controller I have works on a time base and level base, so if it is jetted for 200 horse, I can dial a 50 horse shot to start in 0.0 seconds (on launch) and go to 100 % over the next 5 seconds, or ask it to go to 75 % in 5 seconds. On a dual shot you can have stage 1 on launch, and using an RPM window switch, or a timer to trigger stage 2. You could plumb the intake for a nozzle at each runner, most intakes have N2O bosses.

Ron