How do I make him understand?

[gtsr515]

Maybe your respnces will help me out, I have a customer that can't understand after I've installed parts on his AOD, the same parts as on my 5-speed, that his car is 4 tenths behind, well, i know all the reasons, but to try and explain them to him, he feels i ripped him off, and thats the last thing i would ever do.

i even told him to expect this before we did the upgrades. i give up. i don't want to boot him from my camp but i hang with winners, not loosers.

SHOW HIM THE LIGHT, I TOLD HIM I WOULD POST NOW AND FOR HIM TO WAIT FOR MY ANSWERS, SO RESPOND AS QUICKLY AS YOUR SCHEDULE WILL ALLOW, THANKS AGAIN GUYS

[jerrys84]

what parts??? what upgrades???

[Unit 5302]

Oh, you mean like the additional power loss associated with spinning the heavier AOD internals, and turning the front pump? How about the fact the AOD's gearing is quite a bit inferior due to the T-5 having 4 gears and an OD and the AOD having 3 gears and an OD.

Also the extra weight (50lbs+) associated with an AOD car vs a T-5 car. Not to mention the shift points on the stock AOD are much harder to control than a manual, and it usually shifts quite a bit early.

If he wants to run with a 5spd, he needs one step lower gearing than the 5spd, a quality shift kit, and a quality 2800rpm stall converter or so. Additional cost $700-1100.

[Mr 5 0]

gtsr:

Unit summed it up fairly well.

The power loss from the converter is a lot on the stock AOD. The gearing, especially first, on the AOD is around 2.40 as compared to the T-5's 3.35 and of course the lesser shift points and extra weight of the AOD are all a factor.

The AOD is a general-use automatic and when put next to a manual transmission Mustang with identical mods in a race, it will lose. That can be rectified with a looser converter, shift kit and lower rear axle gears if you choose. Simple fact of automotive life.

[302 LX Eric]

what parts??? what upgrades???

I'm curious what you did to his car as well. What are we dealing with? Stock AOD with a few bolt-ons? Gears? Head/cam/intake?

E

[sn95gt19]

ILL GIVE YOU A GOOD EXAMPLE....my buddy and i both have the same exact stuff done to our cars, except his is an aode, we both have heads, intake, cam, roller rockers. tb. ma, full exhaust(you get the pic) he sprayed his car a 75 shot of nos and i still beat him, again the only difference between our cars is that i have a 5 spd and he has an aode. thats the place where ford messed up, look at ls1 camaros for example, for the most part the auto's are faster than the 6spd's, it just takes a lot of work for a aod to be up there with a five spd.

[fiveohpatrol]

Here's an even better example.
Same car, same 60ft, same mods, same track, same conditions.
The only difference was it was 4 tenths faster after the AOD to T-5 swap.

Now, if you installed a good valve body and converter, then I'd expect the two times to be alot closer than 4tenths.

hope this helps,
-Drew

[Jeff Chambers]

Now there you guys go trashing the AOD again; living with the old wives tales of the early 90's. I'll take my AOD any day over another T5. I'll put my AOD up against a Tremec'd or T5'd car any day....and do most weekends during the season.

As another wise MW member has stated, "Lentech'd and loving it!"

[Mr 5 0]

In the interest of honesty:

Jeff Chamber's AOD is about as far from a stock AOD as it's possible to get. Check out his homepage and the transmission specs.
It's awesome but any comparison to stock is, well, invalid.

[Jeff Chambers]

Awww come on Mr50....all's I've done is a K&N and underdrive pullies!

[Mach 1]

The AOD's shortcomings as a performance transmission are well stated above, but Ill go one step farther, and declare that on a mildly modified 5.0 (most street cars) that an AOD with a shift kit, lower gear ratio and a high stall converter will STILL lose to a 5 speed car.

Those items help, but arent enough to make it equal to the 5 speed. Theres just to much lost in the way of efficiency and weight.

Stall converters, shift kits, and gears arent enough to make up for the horsepower lost through the less efficient automatic transmission. The AOD is said to eat up around 40 horsepower more than a 5 speed due its design and efficiency, which is true.

Gears, converter and shift kit arent going to replace that 40 horsepower.

[LaxMan]

I guess it is all how you want to look at Mach 1.

Yes you are going to lose the 40 HP but you are going to gain the torque multiplication down low. You might lose the 40 HP around the 5500 RPM mark but the AOD's don't usually stay up there. They like to hover around the 4500-5000 mark where all of the torque multiplication is going on.

In an 1/8 mile race, you put an AOD (with higher stall and gear set) against a t-5 They will be almost dead even.

Another benifit for the AOD is the lack of miss shifts and over revs.

LOL! Can you tell I am a AOD fan.....Just my opions.

[Mach 1]

Im an automatic fan, and while I dont particulary care for the AOD, its what my car uses.

I disagree with all these comparisons saying a stall converter and geared AOD will be even with a 5 speed. I just dont see it happening. I dont see it happening at the track, or on the street. And my car has all the AOD goodies, and is still noticeably lacking in power on a similary equipped 5 speed car. Lots of people say a modded AOD will hang, yet nobody can present any proof or evidence. I stand by my above statements that the AOD will go down with the mods mentioned...this is assuming the 5 speed car has a capable driver.

Im with you, I like no missed shifts and the other advantages an automatic has to offer, which is why I chose to buy a stang with an AOD, but they are slower, even when modded, by quite a bit in my opinion.

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by jeff chambers
Awww come on Mr50....all's I've done is a K&N and underdrive pullies!

ROFL!!

Take care,
-Chris

[Jeff Chambers]

Mach1, you say even a modded AOD won't hang? I beg to differ. I race week in and week out against Tremec'd and T5'd cars building the same range of horsepower. The stick cars are all pro-shifted with trick clutches (e.g. long style slippers) and the AOD cars will not only hang with them, but will win quite often. Just like with anything else, it comes down to picking the right parts to give you the best output for your money. The factory AOD is anemic, at best, but it doesn't take a whole lot to greatly improve it. The extra weight can be offset by running a few gallons less fuel or removing your spare tire. The 2.40 first gear is still tons better when you consider a 1.5-2.2 torque multiplication provided by most converters. The inability to miss a shift is priceless. And if you're smart enough to go with lock-up, you'll find yourself driving AWAY from the stick car at half-track.

As far as the 40 horsepower goes, a magical mystical number that's misleading. I made 325RWHP on the chassis dyno with a T5 and 324RWHP on the dyno with the AOD in lockup; nearly everything else remaining constant. Unlocked it only makes 290RWHP, but that's still good enough to run 11.4's at 117+ because of the multiplication of the converter and efficiency of getting through the gears.

People ***** and moan about the AOD's performance only because they either don't understand or don't want to know how to make it work.

I hear people making the same argument about putting 'factory, low flowing, small valved, cast iron GT-40P heads' on their ride. Spend an extra $500 and get some real heads they say. Yet I'll spank their TFS headed, Vortech S-trimmed, T-5'd bucket any day of the week. There are no 'bad' parts out there (other than the Tornado ), just bad implementation of them.

[Mach 1]

Im not disagreeing with what you are implying or the results you have accomplished, what im saying is that with two cars mildly modified (mid 12's - mid 13's), one a AOD with good converter and shift kit, non-lockup, plenty of gear, shift improvements and the other a 5 speed with a good driver, the 5 speed will win, no problem.

You cant compare your professionally built, top of the line, race Lentech to what Im talking about, and I dont see how anyone can disagree with the example Ive laid out, as its what happens in the real world.

What im really surprised to hear is that going lock-up netted you 34 more HP over non-lockup! Thats quite an improvement, and apparently reflects in the success you are having with your combination.

Most tranny places recommend going non-lockup to retain the torque multiplication, but I guess they are giving poor advice if lock ups run that much better. Are you locking up in third and going through the traps in third?

[Mr 5 0]

Jeff:

Good points.

I'm no AOD expert - wouldn't have one if you gave it to me (at least for a street car) but I've seen many posts over the years where guys did the loose converter, shift kit, rear gear swaps and claimed a four or five-tenths drop in et at the track.

I don't doubt it, I just don't have documented proof so I can't make the case in a conclusive way.

I agree that the right parts selection is crucial. Not all converters are equal nor ar all shift kits. You have to look at the total package and many don't, they slap on parts and wonder why they don't get the results they expected.

In any case, I appreciate your comments. I still prefer the manual transmission and think it's superior in many ways, outside of serious track racing, but the AOD is able to compete when modified properly; I just don't see it as worth the trouble on the street, but that's just me.

[89 Cobra LX]

Originally posted by jeff chambers
I hear people making the same argument about putting 'factory, low flowing, small valved, cast iron GT-40P heads' on their ride. Spend an extra $500 and get some real heads they say. Yet I'll spank their TFS headed, Vortech S-trimmed, T-5'd bucket any day of the week.

I'm curious, what heads are you running?

[Jeff Chambers]

Unported, stock valve sized GT-40P's.

You say that you can't compare the Lentech to what's out there? Why not? Again I say that the options are out there, its how you make use of them that's important. The Street Terminator is a very affordable AOD option that'll greatly enhance your performance in a very streetable, near stock manner. If someone chooses not to go that route, then that's there choice but to flat out ignore the availability and potential of the option is ignorance, plain and simple. Ten years ago that option wasn't there and the AOD got the bad rap. Its there now and its time to abandon that bad rap. Same goes for the AODE. The potential, with a simple add-on such as the Bauminator, is awesome. We had a guy running 11.1's last season simply putting it in "D" and mashing the pedal.

Spend $89 on a shift kit and you'll get $89 worth of performance; put in an E cam and you'll get E cam performance. The technology, know-how and experience are out there, so why not take full advantage of it?

[Mach 1]

Originally posted by jeff chambers

Spend $89 on a shift kit and you'll get $89 worth of performance; put in an E cam and you'll get E cam performance. The technology, know-how and experience are out there, so why not take full advantage of it?

Your kidding right? The answer to that question is $$$$$. A lentech street AOD valve body is $370.00 just for the valve body alone. That might be cheap to you, but not everybody.