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Ever race an older muscle car and spank 'em?
Don't get me wrong, I love older muscle cars. Especially when I drive my dad's 63 1/2 Ford Galaxie with a 427. I know the older cars' potential, but I am talking about the cocky older racers that run at the mouth at how much they hate 5.0's.
These are the people that I love to hand their a$$ to. I raced a 383 4spd Roadrunner and spanked him...bad, when I was nearly stock. Also an old man in @ a 70 Nova who was messing with me when I didn't want anything to do with him (he had big exhaust, big cam, and sticky tires), then after he bugged me many times I figured, might as well. I beat him bad enough to where he wouldn't even get close to me at the next light (this was also when I was nearly stock). I am not starting a flame here as my dad has some bad a$$ cars (63 Plymouth Savoy with a 426 max wedge(original 6 cyl car), 69 mustang fastback with a 428 CJ(351wcar), 67 mustang fastback, and the galaxie mentioned above only the galaxie and plymouth run though). I just want to know if anyone else has had the joy of shutting up some of the arrogant people out there in the old muscle cars that don't respect the 5.0's still? |
blah blah blah..they dont make them like they used to..blah blah blah you call a 302 a big motor..i get it all the time from some of the "wish i was still 20 but im 45 so ill buy the car i drove when i was 20 so i feel young again" ..then they talk $hit and dont know what happens when they get wooped..like the guy down the street has a 400hp '67 400 fireturd and wow if thats 400 horse then i am running 700hp..lol
------------------ 1987 black notch(ex 4 banger) DSS 306 w/ main support...Elderbrock 6028 heads..gt-40 intake..24# injectors...70 mm tb..77 pro-m...accel 300+..mac full legnth..tremec w/ pro5oh...full MAC exhaust,off road h-pipe,long tubes, catback...ron davis radiator..subframes, control arms...CFDF II..o yea holley FPR sucks..dont buy one.. |
I once raced a Olds 442 w/350. He jumped the light and I still spanked his a$$. I flew by him like a little blue rocket! http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/biggrin.gif
I also raced a 1963 Vette to a 2 to 1 lane merge. I beat him by about 1 car, but I think he didn't know how to drive. I find "muscle" cars good off the line, probably the gearing. I think most suck on the highway. Of course there are exceptions! ------------------ C ME FLY http://www.mustangworks.com/mustangs...1248-slot1.jpg 88 coupe 14.75 @ 98 mph Traction Limited |
I love stomping on 'em!
Vettes are the BEST! Mopar dudes are my second fave... and you chevy boys...LOL! sure, I'll race ya! ------------------ Rob Wegner 90LX |
I love spanking old big blocks. Cause most guys can't comprehend how a small block could be faster than a big block. They say "I have a 428, so I will kill your 351" I love spnking old Mopars, because they go into shock when there 440 gets whooped!
My cars old, but I know it would not have some of it's mods if it weren't for the 5.0's. ------------------ 67 Fastback - Arctic White Pearl paint 351W ,Trick Flow Aluminum Heads, Edelbrock TorkerII, Comp. Cam, Performance Automatic C-4 Trans, 3.55 gears, Front Disc Brakes, 1-1/8" Fr. 3/4" rear sway bars. My 351W Fastback |
Yeah my dad used to say that there is no substitue for cubic inches except for big money. He said that, until he rode in my car, when it was my brother's.
Especially when it ran 14.60-14.70's bone stock full weight '88 GT in 90* heat and lots o' humidity (it was at Milan dragway, traction can be questionable). He was impressed and knew it wouldn't take much money to run 12's. Now he is proud of me because I built my own car, like he used to do. He still brings up the old cars, though. His 427 Galaxie is pretty impressive though. I took it out one night to the cruisin' loop on Gratiot. I beat many mustangs and newer Z's (non-ls1s). |
I know, when I first moved to Texas there was this one guy, every talked about his 400hp 355 in his 72 SS camaro he built up. He would bring pics of him building the the engine and stuff. I ran him one day finally and the spanked him. By the next week I was building his engine up for him.
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There's a guy in a neighboring town that has an olds 442 with a 500hp 454. The car is pretty nice looking and sounds good too. I wanna race him bad but he won't even run because he says he'll beat me too bad. The car has 456 gears but it has old bias tires and a stock suspension. I've seen the car in action and it has no traction at all. but he's the typical Big Block owner and thinks his car is invinsible.
------------------ 4 cyl converted to 302 comp cams cam, ported GT 40 heads, Edelbrock intake, holley carb Turbo coupe rear with 373's 4 inch cowl hood finally done after what seemed like forever!!!!! |
I've had an old Chevelle looking thing (was't too sure) did a revving fly-by and proceeded to rev at the light. The car had MONSTER tires, probably 285+ 70s. It had a mean tone to it with the "sponsor" stickers on the side, with old english writing in the back (some gangster lookin guy). The car sounded as if I didn't want a piece of that, but my passenger pressured me into racing it.
From the get go I just pulled away. Not too much of a race, all show no go. My friends '90 Integra would have even ran even probably. |
I wish you guys could come down to the local cruise-in here just outside Detroit. There are quite a few built big-blocks that probably do run 11s or quicker on motor.
It's a shame, really. The old saying goes that there's no replacement for displacement. I like to modify that and say there's no replacement for displacement when it's built right. You can build up a big block and run low 14s or you can build one up and run high 9s. The real question is: How fast do you want to spend? Nevertheless, good kills. A kill is a kill is a kill. Bring whatcha got and run 'em. ------------------ Jeff Kane 1990 LX Mustang ex-5.0 Coupe No engine. No transmission. Prepping car for a "big" big-block. http://hometown.aol.com/red514lx/ [This message has been edited by Red514LX (edited 01-08-2001).] |
I have been spanked to bleeding pulp, by an old sh*t box cutlass running a 502 engine.
The only reason I kept up with the guy in first gear was because he was spinning. I'm pretty impressed by the big blocks, allthough I would want to cruise downtown with that plad looking box on wheels. ------------------ Lizard King - 00GT http://www.mustangworks.com/mustangs...1393-slot3.jpg >> 13.698 @ 101.2MPH - BONE STOCK, yes BONE(even air filter) stock. "I can do anything, I'm the Lizard King." - The Doors |
Being a classic guy, i have to go with what my roots. The look, the motors everything. But i atleast understand that my 66 was not intended to drag or handle all that well, like you 5.0 guys. Not to mention the versatility or the 5.0 engine. Hands down, ford has built the greatest platform for a street racing car in the fox body mustang with an efi 302. The big boat muscle cars were fast for there day. But the name of the game for today, is applied hp. You can have all the hp in the world. If it doesn't get applied to the ground with out losing half the tire, then its useless.
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88gt5.0, So what are you running? a (stock 383 4spd roadrunner is in the high 14's or low with a good driver, but like you said, i love older muscle cars, my dad drove a 383 4spd coronet, at 17 yrs old, making over 500 hp, doing 11.70's, on cheeter slicks and huge solid cam, and of course they had higher compession (stock), and better, cheaper gas.
I used to love hanging out with my dad and his friends, when they would talk about him blowin away 427 vettes and gto's.... But he too is impressed at riding in my car and feeling the (economic) power our mustangs make http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif Just sayin, if he still had that car we could go out and light up some camaros, vipers, vettes, mustangs..ect.. ------------------ 90 lx coupe: Mac cold air fenderwell, accel supercoil,advncd ignition,3-core radiatr, FMS alum D/S, Black magic fan, 3.27grs, 3chbr flows. Best time: 14.20(on 225/60/15 firehawks) Best mph 97.80 Best 60' 2.1 next mods: subframes, 3.73's |
The 383 Roadrunner that I raced was pretty much stock with the exception of a gear. The guy was in first gear jumping it trying to get me to race. So I went down into first and decided to romp it and I spanked him (we raced just past third gear). I don't know if he was very good at driving. This was when I had a gear, exhaust, pullies, and K&N. I ran 14.10@99 with 2.2 60' then.
As for big blocks, I do have ultimate respect for them. My dad has some of the best big blocks ever built (427, 428,429, 460). My dad has a lot of stuff, you know the show Sanford and Son, well my dad is Fred Sanford. The 427 Ford is a bad dude, and yes it did come out before Chevy's 427. I argue with people about that all the time. We have a 67 Mustang racecar that is VERY light, this thing only has a roll bar and a drivers seat. My dad was going to put the 514 ci crate motor in it and race, but college stole that funding. I just figured this would be a cool topic, since my dad reacted in the typical manner as the other old "stuck in their ways" folks did. |
Some of the old big blocks are no-go types, but let me share a little story that initiated me well:
Second time down the 1320 and what do I line up against? An old POS looking (key word here --> "looking") Nova with about four quarts of bondo on half of the body panels, a primer gray door, silver hood and gold painted trunk. Anyways, the car sounds like it was about to stall off the line and at the time I didn't really know what sounded "mean" and what sounded like a tired old carbed V8 that hadn't had a tune up since I was born back in 1975. So we line them up and the tree falls and guess what? This POS Nova is at the 330' mark by the time I get my Stang out of 1st gear! This thing hauled balls! http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...gboard/eek.gif I was so scared from the sound it made when it launched that I didn't know what to do. Anyways, he runs a mid 11 and I run a solid 14.7 something or other (stock everything back then). So, I do respect the "older" muscle cars, but come on, he had nearly 100 cubes on me! http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/biggrin.gif I guess the roll cage should have clued me in. E ------------------ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe -37,800 miles 13.17 @ 106.14 mph w/ 2.138 60' Pro-Charger D-1SC on the way!!! |
One of my best friends has a 67 Camaro w/ a well built 502 on alcohol. Before his head swap from Merlins to Alum. Darts he ran a best of 10.13.
One of my main goals this racing season is to beat him racing him on the motor alone. He has a bit more cubes BUT I will have a weight advantage of 300 - 400lbs so we will see. That and I drive a Mustang so that will count for something. http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...board/wink.gif We shall see! ------------------ SVO siamesed 351 stroked to 417ci,Yates heads, solid roller,Trans King glide and a little blue bottle of giggle gas. My Car |
i can't speak for all those "old" guys in big blocked "muscle cars", but i know from experience that most guys with 5.0's think their car is hot sh!t just because they haven't ever driven a descent performance V8. So the older generation really doesn't have a lot of respect for those sort of people.. and unfortunately due to stereotyping, all 5.0 fox body stangs get the same sort of treatment even though you guys haul serious a$$!... sometimes i wish i had what you guys do... so for a guy who IS NOT over 20 and LOVES old cars, i give you guys props. yeah i know about those old ford bigblocks... once redone those things haul major a$$!! My dad just smoked (bad too http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/biggrin.gif) a late 60's 427 corvette in his nearly 4000lbs '68 fairlane GTA convertible... pretty impressive if you ask me! I can only hang with LS1's right now... but someday my little coupe will haul serious *** !
------------------ '63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust, '65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's |
In all honesty here, big blocks are like small blocks in that stock ones respond to ordinary hot rodding hop up techniques. Just as one can make a 225 hp 5.0 into 450hp normally aspirated engine, one can make a 428 into a 700 hp normally aspirated engine. What a lot of folks want to do is compare a highly modded 5.0 to a stock 428 CJ. What we should be talking about is equally modded engines and then compare hp/CID. Then we might see some advantages of modern roller cams and induction systems. Modded (and I emphasize modded) big blocks can and do produce awesome power.
Rev ------------------ '66 Coupe, 306, 300 HP, C-4, 13.97 e.t., 100.3 mph 1/4 mi. |
I have experienced the raw power of a good old big block V-8. The first motor I rebuilt was my dad's 427 low riser in his 63 1/2 Galaxie (at 11 yrs old).
This car pulls like mad, with a 3.00:1 gear. Mind you this is an original 390 car with a "cruise 'o matic". So in its place is the 427 with a C-6 (3500 stall, reverse manual valve body). I know that the converter is a little loose (especially with the gear), but we planned on changing the gear. We will put a 3.91 or a 4.10 with a posi or locker. We need to get the correct 31 spline axles to go into the rear. I realize the potential too, but I just wanted to see if anyone ran across some cocky has been and spanked 'em. |
LET ME START OFF BY SAING THAT THE FOX BODY MUSTANGS ARE ONE OF MY FAVORITE CARS OF ALL TIME I, AM LOOKING FOR ONE MY SELF.
Now I am NOT flameing any one or any thing but the guys your raceing dont know what they are talking about when it come to the HP of there car , or your mods list runs for miles as in not stock . I have a friend who has a 72 Cudda that's a 440 car. It has the slap stick 3 speed along with balinced and blue printed and some cam. On stock tires junk heads and intake. Its probably capable of low 12's. and there's still plinty of room for improve meant on it. Heads and intake long with a 4 speed or a new high performance stall. Also some traction it would be a prity hard to beat. Thetas all motor too if he got a blower, turbo or nitrous it would probably be a 9 SEC Street car. He has killed al kinds of cars when i have been with him. From 2 LS1 F -body, V6 stang, riced out RX-7. Along with a couple of probes. Also there's a 5.0 around here that's navy blue with neon ground effects has the license plate "Bottle fed" he wouldn't even line up with us so as far as stock or mildly moded 5.0's beating moded muscle cars they must not of been trying is all I can think of. |
I ran an Impala with a "crate 350 turbo jet" when I had the Holley 2 kit and walked him bad both off the line and a 40 drop.
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Hey Red,
Are you talking about the Fort Street Cruise? I took care of a few local big blocks my self..lol |
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Rev |
You guys are right about that the name of the game is now applied horsepower, my 67 GTA has the 390 rated at 320HP, and i have only been able to run a 15.4 @90 with it, granted thats not really launching on street tires, but when a Notchback fox can run mid 13's with just an exhaust system and maybe 240HP at the Crank, it still amazes me, and on my first time at the track with my truck i only ran 14.5 with a motor rated at 435-475(Comp Cams Guy) so you fox guys keep hauling ass, and hopfully soon ill be joining you with a 5.0 of my own
Steven |
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Rev |
either way i think 15.4 is kinda unimpressive for a Big Block Mustang, what the HP calculator is saying is that i put out about 200 at the wheels
Steven |
200 about right
Net hp is usually somewhere around 85% of gross hp. So .85 X 320 = 272 net. If it's automatic, then the rwhp is only about 75% of the net flywheel hp. So .75 X 272 = 204 rwhp.
Rev |
If I run into someone with a big block applying some of today's advancements......gonna get my @#* handed to me. things can always be deceiving.
I also raced a cutlass back in high school when my car ran a solid 16.0 quarter....yes I said 16...and I thought it was quick...so I had this coming. the cutalss had half an inch of dust/dirt all over the top with cat crap and cat prints to boot. the interior was trashed with a walmart guage pod. The car had home made traction bars, but the car sat slightly to one side instead of level. When we raced, it was so loud....scared me bad enough I killed my engine...and it was an auto. The thing was instantly revved out.....like my cr-250 2 stroke. Never had seen anything like it. should have noticed the Nitrous plate under the carb...or understood that when they said it was a 383 race engine out of their stock car...they might not be bluffing. U could hear the crowd laughing for miles. The point...anything can be fast...talking to the owner is what I look at...and not so much the cubic inches of the car. Ryan |
Let me start by saying I don't race anyone as my car is too slow. I love the big block muscle cars. They are what got me hooked on cars in the first place. I ran a big block corvette at national trails once in a monte carlo. This was the fastest car I had ever owned. I was so impressed with the sound reving up next to me I almost didn't want to race but thank goodness I actually won that one. I do wonder if there is a certain break in time before you can put on a keene bell twin screw. My car has 1200 miles and don't want to put on on before it is broke in if it will hurt it.
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come on give me a break. Not everyone in a big block old car is "some old dude." I have had mine since I was 22 years old and now i am 27. I do also own a 91 GT so i know what they are both like. The 5.0 will never ever pull the way my 428 does. It is just a totally different feeling. I have never lost to a 5.0 with my 428 I did lose to a 95 vortech supercharged lighting though. Most of you guys with your lightly moded 5.0 beat old big block cars because most of the are not modified. They are stock because they are worth more money stock moded old cars aren't worth a sit. I would hope that with 20 years of technology on the old cars that stock for stock a newer mustang would win. What the hell would Ford be doing if they couldn't improve on a product 20 years later. You want to compare cars look at NHRA stock eleminator the mods for each class are the same and there sure as hell aren't any 5.0s running in the same class as the big blocks since a stock eleminator 428cj runs deep into the 10s and 5.0 run 11s.
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what ever happened to the faithful and for the most part true quote of "there is no replacement for displacement" big block = kill you, hands down
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I dont think anyone here is bashing the big blocks, Anything can make power, its just how much you want to spend.
As for the replacement for displacement - I think turbos, superchargers and nos are exceptions to that rule. |
I also agree that I personally do not feel anyone is bashing the big blocks. I just think some people (including myself) are trying to make the point that just because a car is equiped with a big block, does not necessarily mean it will beat a car with a smaller engine. Especially one that has been put together with choice parts.
Ryan |
HP/CID
I still think we have to look at horsepower per cubic inch displacement when judging the value of various engines. To me, that's really the nuts of the matter.
Rev |
whats the numbers on the 428 cj? anybody know?
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http://forums.mustangworks.com/images/icons/icon4.gif The 428 CJ was factory rated at 335 HP. Many folks feel like it was intentionally rated low because of pressure in those days from the Feds and the insurance industry. A lot of people believe the power was near 500 HP. One must remember that we're talking gross HP as apposed to the net HP we use now. Rev |
well lets judge the value on your terms of hp/cube
we'll say that the 428 made around 325 net take the 5.0L at 225 the cj adds up to .76 hp/cube while the 5.0L is .75 hp/cube ..thats not a whole lot of difference ..what really surprises me now that i think of it - take a B16 which is what ..97 cubes and 160 hp ..thats 1.65hp/cube :-O i wish my motor made 1.65hp/cube ..id be a beast - so what im trying to say is if you want the best bang for your buck you go with a civic? haha im j/k really i dont know what im talkin about and im just REALLY bored |
WTF?
335 for the CJ is not really correct, but 335./428=.78 hp/cid. That's nowhere near correct. 500/428=1.17 which is more correct for a factory hopped up engine. 500/428 is not hard for me to believe f0or a factory hotrod for that era.
Rev |
I love the 5.0 and the look in Corvette drivers eyes when they see one stop beside them at a light. I was once one of those fuel injected engine haters. It was because I just didn't understand how it worked. It was easier to work on the old Carbs. I learned how they work and now I am a fan.
Don't forget the old school guys and gals got us to where we are now!!!! |
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