Excellent, and good luck on the motor and 9-10's! The faster the better....

Now I see where our difference in interpretation of "power adder" stems. I've been to the track one time, and it wasn't competitively. Just a free-for-all which was the day I ran my 12 sec pass. Anyhow, it seems that's some sort of rule or restriction that's imposed when you run. So the track rules have defined a power adder to be only those three items. I however have never had that type of exposure, thus I'm defining "power adder" from a non-track perspective. Mystery solved. :)
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

A friend's turbo mustang made 494 rwhp and 536 ft/lbs of torque on 9 lbs of boost in 103* heat. I'm sure that equates to close to 550 flywheel hp. It's his every day driver and drives like stock. His combo: Trick Flow heads and intake, stock cam, bigger fuel system and of course, the turbo kit. Most people would be surprised how well a 500 hp turbo mustang drives. Like Sky said, keep your foot out of it so that it doesn't build boost, and you would never know the car actually makes that much power.

Good thing i could clear that up....ok next argument!

Oooh, "argument" is so...so, harsh. "Spirited debate" is much more.....temperate.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

There's quite a few guys running very low 11's, and a few hitting 10's with their TTA's. That's 500-530Hp, but the kicker is the 3.8 turbo engine puts out more torque than Hp. Another guy had his engine professionally rebuilt and hit the dyno. It hit low 600 Hp and almost 700 ft/lbs of torque before it grenaded. Come to find out the engine builder forgot to tighten down one of the rod cap nuts....oops. Anyhow, the moderately modded 3.8's hitting high 10's to low 11's are daily drivers with excellent drivability. That's the nice thing about a turbo, it's a naturally aspirated engine 'til you kick it in the azz with the boost.

Here's the URL to an older article which profiles Bill Sakes' run in his TTA; http://www.89tta.com/pounder.htm. I did a search on Google and got some hits. Looks like his best run was a 9.553 @ 141.881mph. He drove the car there and back home with the A/C on. All with a single turbo 4.1 V-6 daily driver.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

9.5 with a 4.1.....sounds like a stage $2$ motor.

I don't know much about Sakes' car, but I believe it was.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

hey 20, where are you from?

PS. Im not shocked (but impressed)to hear of a fast 3.8. Im fully aware of there potential.

Heeh, they did this, some years ago, because the twin turbos where walking all over everyone and deemed an unfair advantage.

Using N2O in street racing is not cheating when its a "run what ya brung" type race, which is most all street racing.(I think we've had this conversation a few times through the years.) If there are rules against it then... its cheating.:)

20LbsBoost, I like your cars(mostly the GN) but I can't understand, after 19yrs experience with muscle cars, how you can not know that the term 'power-adder' is used when referring to N2O, Superchargers, and Turbos. I never knew that GN guys got upset because others use power-adders, that really mystifies me that someone with a power-adder(although factory) gets upset about someone else adding something... thats a wild concept to me.

Rick

How-d. I'm in southern lower Michigan.

Thanks for the accolades on the GN! :)

Well, to explain why I don't know the track or street definition of power adder I don't go to tracks and don't hang around a race type crowd. The guys I hang with are 30-40yrs old, have very well cared for classics and/or are the turbo guys. Nitrous has never been part of our car lifestyle. When I grew up it was cubic inches...end of story. The only exposure or use I've had for NOS has been at the dentist office.

As far as the turbo guys, please don't take my opinion as every turbo guy's opinion. I've had a GN since 1991 and have NEVER heard a turbo referred to as a power adder. I'll take a sample of the GN/TTA guys to see how many of them have heard the term and what it means to them.

I've heard a turbo referred to as a "snail", "whistler", "eureka" (vacuum) and some other things.

Don't think I'm upset about anyone using laughing gas, I'm not at all. I just think it's a weak way to get power. I wouldn't ever use it on my car personally, but that's me. I wanted to get opinions from people who use or endorse it's use is all. Personally, I couldn't take pride in a good 1/4mi time, or impressive street performance becuase of laughing gas.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

There is no difference dude. I remember being in high school(mid 80s) and we all thought that Dodge was 'cheating' with the Daytona because it had 'fake hp' by using a turbo on its 4 banger. It was a pretty quick car at that time. We all preferred cubic inches. Never the less, it was a fast car. All the 'power-adders' do the same thing, just different ways of going about it. Getting oxygen into the chamber along with some added fuel. N2O by injecting, Superchargers by blowering it in with the use of a belt(off the crank) and Turbos by spooling up the pressure from the exhaust. When you come to understand these things you will look at it differently. It all comes down to winning the race and whatever works for you. I know where you are coming from though and I thought it was cheating too, until I decided to do something about it(I went with the supercharger). Now I really don't care what power adder someone else has, choose your poison.

BTW, nice to meet ya. Glad you learned something here, thats what its all about.:)

It wasnt just twin turbos, it was twin superchargers also in the early 90's. And, turbos and superchargers with a lil nitrous. Well 20, without your turbo, your car is deemed useless. So by your standards, you are cheating too:o

I did not know that, learn something everyday. I know that a small shot of nitrous works well with a supercharger but I didn't realize folks where running twin superchargers.

I shouldn't have used the word "CHEATING" when starting this thread. I didn't realize it would grow into what it has and "CHEATING" is a poor choice of words. Perhaps "WEAK" would have been better.

I see turbos and superchargers completely differently than NOS, here's why:

- Turbos and Superchargers are actually a part of the working mechanics of the engine.
- Stock turbo/supercharged engines cannot run with turbo/supercharger removed (I know what you're thinking. I cannot remove my turbo and drive to the store without MAJOR engine work).
- Manufactured turbo/supercharged engines are made factory original with the turbo/supercharger.
- Power is "on demand" anywhere, anytime. Non NOS cars can run their times all day, any day without the need for constant fill-ups to keep good times.

I understand the theory of NOS and what it does to produce HP. Never have questioned that and/or it's similarity to forced induction. There are some turbo guys running around using alcohol injection so they can safely up their boost. That's not for me either.

It may come down to "whoever wins the race" but seems strange that the guy who wins the checker flag 2 or 3 times has to go and refill the bottle to keep winning. Is that really winning?? When the bottle quits, so do the wins. I can't imagine going out for a night hunting, scaring up a few races then having to end the night because the "go fast juice" is empty. Very strange concept....to me.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

No respectable nitrous user would be caught dead with an empty bottle. They understand its usage and know the bottle can and will run out. Before I went turbo, all I ran was nitrous. I had spare bottles that I kept filled, so I never worried about running out.

That was then, and I was on more of a budget, that's why I ran it. I picked up a used kit with 2 bottles at that time for $200. To good to pass up if you ask me. Probably 90% of the mustang owners in my area that are serious about going fast run nitrous. It's just cheap and easy. And unlike a blower or turbo, it's atmosphere in a bottle. No matter what the weather is like, nitrous is as unaffected my the conditions as the other 2 power adders.

I appreciate you level headedness and where your coming from, but you have to understand, for most guys the ability to knock off anywhere from 1/2 sec in et or 2 sec in et for a few under dollars is very appealing.

Nice thread...

IMO, nitrous isn't cheating, or unfair, or cheesy. Who cares about the method used when the results are the same? It's rediculous to discredit one power adder over another just because you don't approve of the method that the power is added.

Doesn't matter what the car came with from the factory. Very few people leave their cars 100% stock. Besides, you couldn't get approval for a nitrous system on a production car. Many a guy wouldn't know how to use it and probably wreck their engine, sending warranty costs skyrocketing. A factory turbo or supercharger is pretty much idiot proof, with no instructions for use needed.

Sure, my bottle might go empty, but I've seen wastegates fail and blower belts get tossed.

My car might be slower off the bottle, but a turbo/blower car will be even more of a pig with a broken belt or stuck wastegate. Most nitrous motors are quite stout even naturally aspirated, generally having much higher compression than a comparable turbo or blown motor.

Yeah, it's cheaper, so what?

Yeah, the bottle gets empty. So what? Throw in another full one. Do you think I'll be going to any race with only one bottle? Probably not. Try 6 or 7.

It also has some advantages:
No blower belts to break/slip.
No worrying about belt alignment.
No excessive load on the front of the crank.
No bearings to fail, and near zero moving parts.
WAY less maintenance(tell me how much it costs to get a blower or turbo rebilt/refurbished, and I'll laugh when I say it costs near nothing to rebuild a solenoid).
What do you do when the turbo/blower is maxed out, way past its efficiency range? You gotta get a new turbo or blower or get an upgraded impeller. Way more expensive than changing jets or buying a couple new solenoids and a bigger feed line.
Generally it has less of a tendency to blow head gaskets.
It doesn't affect a damn thing when it's off.
Makes the fattest torque curve of them all.
Nitrous doesn't heat the intake charge like a blower or turbo.
Cheaper initial cost.
Jet changes are a snap(much quicker than a pulley change, but adjustable boost controllers make it just about as easy).
Doesn't rely on engine oil to keep it alive.
Much easier to install for someone who may not be so mechanically inclined.

On another note, it's common to refer to a "power adder" as a blower, turbo, or nitrous/propane injection. This is common lingo. Any motor without any of the above would be considered naturally aspirated, regardless of what airflow modifications it has.

Win no matter how? The end justifies the means?

I couldn't walk away from a track with a low 11 sec timeslip with my head held high knowing I had to use chemical gas sprayed into the engine to get power. No more than coming away from the track with a 6 sec timeslip with a chemical gas expanding inside a rocket motor attached to the rear of the car. But using your logic, as long as it gets you there so what. I could say I've got a 6 second machine! It's cheezy.

As far as mechanical problems with turbo/supercharged cars I'm sure there are. I've never had any, notta one. I had a Grand National for 10 years, a GMC Typhoon, Turbo T/A and another GN.
__________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National

http://www.krif.com/tta/

People that run nitrous don't do it because it is the only way they could get power. Its just the way they chose to do it. Also you shouldn't use the word power like that. My 1.6L Corolla makes power. If you meant alot of power, well everyones opinion is different as to how much is alot.

Chemical gas? What do you think air is? Nitrous increases the amount of oxygen in the cylinder allowing you to burn more gas. That is exactly what a turbo does. Nitrous isn't even flammable.

Somebody correct but don't they call it nitromethane cause they put nitrous in it. I guess all the top fuelers are just "cheezy."

As long as it gets you there thats all that matters? Yep, thats the way it is. You'll probably quit your whining when you figure that out.

Whining...please dude.
whine (hwºn, wºn) v. whined, whin·ing, whines. --intr. 1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint. 2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion. 3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining. --tr. :o

Debate...yes.
de·bate (d¹-b³t“) v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates. --intr. 1. To consider something; deliberate. 2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points. 3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.

If you agree with the statement "the end justifies the means" stand up and say so. It's no big deal.
_______________________
Dean
1989 PAS Turbo T/A #1233
*12.93@104mph 3.8 V-6
1987 Grand National
http://www.krif.com/tta/

http://www.krif.com/tta/TTA/TTA1233.GIF

I'm sorry. Your right this is just a debate. I will simply say that I agree it is run what you brung. The game is, who can be the fastest. The game isn't who can be the fastest without nitrous. What ever ET you end up with is as a result of every component on the car. If car A beats car B while spraying does that mean he only beat him because he sprayed. If they race again and car B wins without car A spraying does that mean car only won because he was running slicks.

Why would it matter what you have on your car.

Good point! I think I'll mount a flame thrower and rocket launcher so if you pull ahead of me BAM! you're done. Run what'cha brung!

BORED
 

WHY DON,T YOU GUYS DROP THIS AND GO ONTO SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE????:rolleyes:

HAHAHA!! That's actually been tried, believe it or not. Guy put a rocket on his car and made a test run, in the desert. Problem was, he couldn't stop it and he ran into the side of a mountain. Needless to say, it would work fine... once. If you could pull up next to someone and safely race them, with a rocket attached... Summit would have a 'Rocket Section' listed in thier catalog.

It took me a while to get it too dude, you'll get it if you get beat enough times.

haha
 

Good point! I think I'll mount a flame thrower and rocket launcher so if you pull ahead of me BAM! you're done. Run what'cha brung!


i always thought a rocket launcher launched the rocket and just sat there after the rocket is gone, what good is it gonna do to mount one to your car???? please explain....im confused:rolleyes:

come on now lets be realistic

A bottle will last you about 10 runs on a 100shot. Thats more than enough. If I beat you, Im not going to run you again, theres no point.

Yeah N20 isnt there all the time, oh well. A lot of turbo owners put in race fuel and crank the boost at the track, that ain't there all the time either.

If its not for you than it isnt. This debate really isnt going anywhere anymore, I think all that has to been said has been said.

Given that 20psiofboost, I have to say your a good sport and never got mad, I have to take my hat off to that!

Skyler

Hahah, that's pretty funny. Leave it to some moron to try that.

Glad to see someone in here's got a sense of humor! :D

Thanks Skyler,

No sense in gettin' mad at differences in opinion, cuz that's all it is. I'm just glad you guys didn't jump me even worse cuz I'm a non-Ford owner! :p

By the way, I checked with my TT/A buddies on that list about what power adder meant to them. They said the same thing....nitrous, turbo & supercharger. Said it was a track term to determine classes which is why I never heard of it, I don't go to tracks. One guy agreed with me regarding the literal definition of the term, that it could be anything that added power....but we won't go there again. Ya' learn something new every day, even from you Ford guys! :D

As they say "It's all good!"

Ford? Chevy? nitrous? Boost?

In my opinion it's more fun when you do it all at once! ;-)

Smiff

if nitrous is "cheap hp" then what do you call a boost controller??

What do I call a boost controller?....I call it a boost controller.

Either you don't understand what I'm saying, or you're just being a smartass. I'll assume the latter.

In essense, I personally thing anything that you do to your car is fair, especially on the street. Hell I know people that go to the local racing spot on ET streets. Fair? you betcha ;) Run what ya brung!!

Maybe a little of both, don't take it personally. Irreverent humor is all good.

I don't understand what a boost controler specifically does, but have an idea. If I'm correct in assuming what it does it determines the amount of boost applied to the engine. In my case that was me....and I'm not cheap! :D

well mr 20 psi i happen to live in a part of Pa were there are a lot of turbo cars. If you look at my car on thew user rides you can see that the sticker on my windshield says Northeast Turbo wich you may have heard of. The owner has a 10 sec Grand National and a 11sec turbo ta. I am best friends with a lot of his customers and him himself (Scott Shiner). I agree that the Turbo TA's and GN's areare very impressive out of the box and have good power potential but you do a lot of bragging for the speed of your car. If you ever happen to be in my neck of the woods myself and abunch of people i hang out with at Northeast Turbo would like to get into a nice friendly street race with ya. Especially the guys with the turbo cars. They would like to see how fast your car really is. I have ran against a lot of turbo cars on the streets and at the Buick VS. Mustang shootout. I personally dont think your car is as fast as you say it is. If al you wanted to do was to get on this site and piss a lot of mustang owners off you probobly accomplished your goal. But if you go on Turbobuick.com and ask if nitrous is fair and i know for a fact that ypou will get the same response that you did here, so quit your crying because you lost and go do something about it. None of the 15 or so people i know with GN's and Turbo TA's think it is unfair. But after having them read this thread they do know what a cry baby is.

haha
 

yep i think its about time for this thread to be locked...lol:D

Ok i finally read this thread and i can somewhat see the turbo guys point.

Kinda..

The only thing that I can see maybe as not being totally legit is its not really part of the mechanicals of the engine and what not. Basically just injects N20. nothing really mechanical about it.

Nitrous coudl be related to a small rocket on the back of your car i suppose and thats what i belive maybe he is saying wihtout saying it.........

I personally think Nitrous is the way to go if its a car your just gonna occasionaly use for racing unless you got alot of money to go to a supercharger or turbo.

Its the affordable solution for power.

Thats about the only light I can see for this though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 87gt17815
well mr 20 psi i happen to live in a part of Pa were there are a lot of turbo cars. If you look at my car on thew user rides you can see that the sticker on my windshield says Northeast Turbo wich you may have heard of. The owner has a 10 sec Grand National and a 11sec turbo ta. I am best friends with a lot of his customers and him himself (Scott Shiner). I agree that the Turbo TA's and GN's areare very impressive out of the box and have good power potential but you do a lot of bragging for the speed of your car. If you ever happen to be in my neck of the woods myself and abunch of people i hang out with at Northeast Turbo would like to get into a nice friendly street race with ya. Especially the guys with the turbo cars. They would like to see how fast your car really is. I have ran against a lot of turbo cars on the streets and at the Buick VS. Mustang shootout. I personally dont think your car is as fast as you say it is. If al you wanted to do was to get on this site and piss a lot of mustang owners off you probobly accomplished your goal. But if you go on Turbobuick.com and ask if nitrous is fair and i know for a fact that ypou will get the same response that you did here, so quit your crying because you lost and go do something about it. None of the 15 or so people i know with GN's and Turbo TA's think it is unfair. But after having them read this thread they do know what a cry baby is.

_________________________________________________

Crybaby? - cry·ba·by (krº“b³”b¶) n. A person who cries or complains frequently with little cause.

"Mr."? Thanks, I like it, it's widely known as a sign of respect.

Please show me where I brag about the speed of my car and I'll show you plenty of posts where I state my car's not quick in the grand scheme of things, it's all relative. By the way, speed and quickness are two different things. But since you're going there, PAS had a stock (factory original with the A/C hooked up) TTA run 171.39 at Indy with a professional driver. I feel my car's quick for an American factory production vehicle with only 3 mods and no NOS. Perhaps you can give me a list of factory cars you know of that can claim the same thing (WITH proof as I've provided). In case you're wondering those mods are a chip, no cat, and downpipe. It has the factory exhaust, factory airbox, factory injectors, factory muffler and factory PSI in the tires...even with the 12 second run and the 1.83 60'.

I've said it before in posts here, and I'll say it again, I know my car isn't the king of the street. When you start thinking that, you're in for a big disappointment.

Last I knew this was [let me quote the title of the Board topic] "Street Racers Corner; This is a ultimate place for the street racing addict. For serious discussion and stories about street/strip victories, and to let everyone know where the hot street racing spots are every where." No where did I read it was Ford exclusive or non-Ford enthusiasts were not welcome.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding the decal on your windshield and frankly I'm not interested. I'm not going to waste my time researching the area of the board you're referring to see a decal on your window. I'm not interested in your car and would race anyone who's car is similarly modified as mine. I'm not going to enter into a speed contest with someone who has a highly modded car since mine isn't, what's the point. Especially against someone who has silly-gas and mods and I don't, ain't gonna happen. A level playing field is paramount. Got a Mustang that's ported/polished, chip and exhaust...we'll go.

If you don't think my car's as fast as I state, I'm not even close to being offended, I honestly don't care. At the very least I have the courage to post my actual timeslip contrary to 99.9% of others who claim to have fast cars. Is your timeslip posted?

I personally haven't seen any evidence I pissed anyone off on this website (this is a message board actually). Sure, I've gotten into disagreements and that's not unusual, but "piss people off", no. Not everyone sees eye-to-eye. At least those you claim I've "pissed off" haven't posted it for me to read. If I'm unwelcome here you're the first to point it out.

Perhaps those on turbobuick.com would disagree with me as well regarding the use of NOS, so be it. However, it's common knowledge turbo engines as a rule DO NOT use NOS so why post that topic there? I know a lot of Mustang drivers use it so I thought it best to sample their opinions. FYI, turbo Buick engines like water or alcohol injection, check with your friends. They should have known that. I won't do that either in my engine, it's against MY street racer's code of ethics.

I'm not sure where you come up with "so quit your crying because you lost and go do something about it". I've had quite a few compliments on my posts about my level-headedness and ability to logically debate, and this is coming from Ford owners towards a non-Ford owner....how ironic.

I stated in a different thread that I lost two times, once to a 1988 supercharged 5.0 Mustang and to a 1966-67 (?) GTO with a 502 crate motor. The threads are still there. I don't pick on ricers but look for something potent, so I'm not sure how you're coming up with your assumptions.

If you and/or your GN/TTA buddies think I'm a cry baby about the use of NOS that's fine with me, I won't be losing any sleep. I've freely admitted my opinion is in the minority regarding the use of NOS, to each his own. It was interesting sampling those who replied with their opinions on the use of silly-juice.

In conclusion, the feedback I've received on this board contradicts your allegation regarding my behaviour. I keep in mind this is a hobby and we're talking cars. Not whose' got the largest unit.

I do have one question. Why do you doubt the quickness of my TTA? Have you seen the TTA video made by TNN I have posted or did you miss that too along with my posted timeslip?

You can check my signature's URL and dig'em both out. I'll give you a clue; the TNN video is under the "MOVIES" heading.

Thanks for your input,