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LT1 & LS1 and the 5.0 &4.6
Well I wanted to post on the LT1 debate in Sky's post there but I thought it was getting pretty long and thought that a new thread covering just this topic was better.
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The stock LS1's are faster than the new GT too. BUT we are not talking about a level field here. Take the money you saved on the purchase of the LT1 and put it into the SN95 and now lets talk. There is more aftermarket support for the 5.0 for sure and I will be honest and say I don't know how the 4.6 compares. But I'm sure it's not far behind now. Anyway, those are my thoughts right now. Comments? ------------------ Driving: 1998 F-150 Far way in Edmonton==> :( 1995 Mustang GT |
The difference in buy a LS1 TA or Camaro compared to a new Mustang GT with 4.6 is about $15K (CAN - 10K USD) ...
For 15K CAN the 4.6 GT can be modded to run 11.8 second quarter mile (based on MMFF article)... the mods needed are: Exaust, Supercharger kit(complete), gears, tires, suspension. With those mods, screw hunting down Camaros, let's go for Vipers and Porches 911TT. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif ------------------ Lizard King, Bone Stock; 13.69 at 101MPH • Extreme Burnout •2000GT VS LS1 • Quartermile run •2000GT vs LX Stang |
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i hope you made a mistake somewhere in there. because a new ls1 compared to a new gt like you stated is not $10k. my wife sold a new ta the other day for only $24k, and the ta had all the options except ws6. you can buy a formula much cheaper. just thought i would give you some facts ------------------ 99 30th annv. Trans am 79 Trans am black se |
I dont know about where you live Gonzo, but here in Fayetteville a new TA runs you about 30 grand, and thats not a WS6. Same as in Sanford, Lillington, and the few Poncho dealers in Fayetteville. The average selling price for a Z28, a new one around here is 26 grand, and thats a plain jane with an auto (its hard to find a manual GM product around here.)
Your talking about 35-38 grand for a SS, and TA WS6. I bought my 2000 GT for 19 grand, new. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif The only option its lacking is leather, well okay, and the mach 460. |
In the defense of GONZO...I have never seen a WS-6 that high...the highest I have seen one was 32. I have seen the Mechams and one firehawk for 36 and 34K.
I also have never seen a GT for 19K new ------------------ Dustin 93 Cobra 261 rwhp 89 GT(Saleen Clone) 392 rwhp(TFS Intake,TFS Heads, BD-11A 9#,Ecam,1.6 rr's, BBK longtubes, lots more... |
Every time I go to a dealership I check out mustangs, camaro's and firebirds. In Canadian $, A T/A is around $40K to $45K (28 to 31K US). Most of the Mustang GT's loaded are around $32K ($21K US). But a base GT (no leather or Mach) is around $27/28K ($17/18K US). That is just what I've seen in the different dealers in the Edmonton Alberta area.
It's not a real bad thing, speed costs, right? ------------------ Driving: 1998 F-150 Far way in Edmonton==> :( 1995 Mustang GT |
I don't see how buying a used car figures into the equation.
Great! I could probably buy some rusted out 78 TA and put a giganto blown Big Block and run 10's for half the cost of your SN95. Oh, and according to my info from the GM and Ford web sites. MSRP Ford Mustang GT $23,230 MSRP Chevy Camaro Z28 $22,450 Maybe some dealers are tacking on extra money due to the coming end of production on the F bodies. Also the C-5 Vette should run in the mid to upper 40's. No fricken way should it be $75k, even the Z06 is way the hell cheaper than that. |
Yes, here in Fayetteville the F-Bodys are not cheap. Maybe it has something to do with being next to a military base, the biggest one in the country.
I went shopping for a new Mustang, but was curious to see how much a Trans-Am was just in case i couldnt afford the Mustang. I about sh$t myself when I saw the prices on window stickers. I couldnt believe it, I called a few pontiac and Ford dealers around the area, and they were all within 700 dollars of one another. The Z28's were cheaper, but still overpriced in my book. The guy at work thought he had a steal at 29 grand, all it was was a 2000 Z28, with leather, t-tops and an auto. He said he was going to go for an SS, but after the test drive the guy told him the one he just drove goes for 33k. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/eek.gif Brad tried to talk the guy down, but the salesman said that theres a waiting list for those cars and he could probably get more for it, he wasnt going to budge on the price. That was a damn barebones SS. As for a New GT (GOt mine new in 2000) I got mine for just a hair under 20k after tax, tags and licensing fee's. And the dealership spent 2 weeks trying to find me a Performance Red GT that was new, and a 5spd. I test drove a 2000 black 5spd GT, Fully optioned, everything. After a week they called me and said they had a deal. They said if I could be colorblind, and sign the papers that day, they would sell me the car for 18,900. Everyone thinks I'm retarted for not taking it, I kinda feel like it, but I had to have RED, had to be Performance RED. RED RED RED. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif ------------------ 64 1/2 "D" code Red Mustang Coupe. 289, C4, 3:1 rear gear. Mallory duel point. Ported & Polished 65 heads shaved .01 with 351 windsor valves, high side of 10.5:1 comp, 1.7:1 sled rockers, blue wolverine lumpy cam, autolite 4100 Hipo 4 barrel. And to many others to list 2000 Perf Red Mustang GT. 5spd. BBK Underdrive pulleys, Flotech off-road H pipe. Hurst T-Handle 64 1/2 red 6cyl coupe. Auto. project car. |
I pulled into the local Pontiac dealership, and checked out the three badass TA's they had out(silver, red, black). $29K, $29K, $31K. I bought my GT at the end of the year for 21K. Ive seen V6 camaros around here going for the same price as my GT.
------------------ Black 2000 GT Magnaflow mufflers, K&N Steeda springs, subs, strut tower, CC plates |
To all Camaro and Firebird Owners out there, this is not ment to offend you all. I wouldnt mind (Hell I'd really enjoy) owning a new Trans-Am (It'd have to be Red) http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif
Mustangs are cheaper because they acutally sell. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif |
You can debate this all you want, but the MSRP's speak for themselfs.
Plain and simple the LS1 cars are a more HP per dollar car anyway you look at it. Its just what do you prefer? Sky ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, E-303, edelbrock intake,70MM TB, 73mm MAF, off road H, headers and 3chamber flows. 12.55@107mph Going for 11's on 87 octane with A/C and 20+MPG!!! |
I prefer the good ole Stang....LONG LIVE FORD!!!
------------------ Dustin 93 Cobra 261 rwhp 89 GT(Saleen Clone) 392 rwhp(TFS Intake,TFS Heads, BD-11A 9#,Ecam,1.6 rr's, BBK longtubes, lots more... |
Well I just went to a couple of dealers and got some prices.
2001 Camaro SS: $40,970 CDN. That with a 6 spd. 2001 Firbird: $41,965 CDN. Also with a 6 spd. 2001 Mustang GT $31,615 CDN. 5 Spd. That is around a $9,000 difference Canadian. In US funds you're looking at: Camaro: $26,200 Firebird: $26,870 Mustang: $20,200 And that is around a $6,000 difference. You can do a lot with $6,000. What's a blower worth? How much power would that grab you? AND if you do the $/HP calculations based on these numbers... Camaro:$80.67/HP Firbird:$82.64/HP Mustang GT: $77.69/HP So the Mustang has the best $/HP ratio of the cars. I bet once you add a blower, you'd be even better! These are not based on the "MRSP". These are based on what I saw at the dealership. The same price you'd pay if you wanted once of these cars. Go to a dealer and check it out. This is similar to these phantom track ET's. There's "what it should run" amd "what it does run". ------------------ Driving: 1998 F-150 Far way in Edmonton==> :( 1995 Mustang GT |
From kbb.com
MSRP on a 2001GT 'Delux' GT Coupe 23230.00 MSRP on a 2001GT 'Premium' Coupe 24380.00 MSRP on a 2001 Z28 'Stripped' 22450 Now remember, this price is w/o power door locks, windows, fog lights, etc etc, leather wraped wheel. WHICH ARE STANDARD on the GT Delux. Those options ad 1715 The stang also comes witha 6 in dash CD changer, gotta pay more in the Z MSRP on a 'fully loaded' Z28 27228 That is with the traction control, leather, etc, everything that si standard on the GT. The only thing I could see that is 'more' than the GT is trhe 12 disc changer in the trunk, as opposed to a 6 in dash (id rather have the in dash.) So that is almost a 4K difference in MSRP. Seemingly also, peole have been getting stangs for closer to invoice than Z28s. I know, I've been pricing a 2001GT, and I was quoted with a price of 500 over invocie which is 23022. ------------------ Manu Narayan Moderator @ StangNet.com |
Wow, the exchange and region makes quite a difference!!!!!
I had been shopping for a TransAM WS6 back when I was looking for the Stang GT... the WS6 was negotiated down to ~39K CAN back then... The sticker price was around $44K My 2000 GT, I bought for $26,600 CAN (compared to MSRP of $30,900 CAN). A buddy of mine just bought his 2001 for $26,400 CAN (fully loaded). If you make the conversion to USD (about 1.56 right now)... in US Dollars here is what the values were exactly one year ago: TA WS6 = $25,000 neg. - MSRP $28,200 2000GT = $17,051 neg. - MSRP $19,743 You guys should come up here to buy!!!!! |
Hate to burst the bubble here, but here in Houston, (at least at Gay pontiac dealership) I saw not one, not 2, not 3 but 12 Trans Am's with the WS6 packages, auto, and FULLY optioned out for $29,997. All kinds of colors. Across the Freeway (I-45) at Mcree Ford, the stangs were running at $23k-$29k (hardtop-convertable) and Cobras were in the $29k-$35k (hardtop-convertable). The TAs were T-tops only.
I guess what I am trying to say is that they cost about the same here. |
The price you'd actually pay?
That's up to you and how well you represent yourself. The MSRP is the suggested retail price, including some dealer markup. Yes the GT comes with better options, and better looks, and IMHO, everything better, but how many people have I seen on this board ***** about not offering an LX 4.6L stripper? Bottom line is you can negotiate your price down if you know what you are doing, and if you do, based on the MSRP, you should be able to get a Z28 or the same or less than a GT. Oh, and the most interesting part of that is, I'd bet money a decent driver in the 260hp 4.6L (not 225) will hand his LT1 a serious *** whuppin. |
Your right.. a 2001 GT come with everything better than a fbod.. except:
1. engine 2. brakes 3. 6 speed manual (has to be better since you dont even offer one) 4. a real functioning ram air hood (if you want to shell out the xtra $$ for the SS or WS6 package) As for looks that's in the eye of the beholder (i like both).. your car is easier to get in and out of.. and easier to judge your front corners.. but your seats stink (so do camaro seats.. for different reasons).. TA seats rock.. I prefer that you have a trunk rather than a hatch.. Oh and around here they sell Z's for $100 over invoice and SS's for $400 over.. Get what you like and like what you get.. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE |
Hey Steve2000SS
Haven't been able to get a hatch on a Mustang since 1993. I'd say the Gen II 4.6L is superior to the LS1 as well. With only 260hp it's getting people 13's. Not too hard to add a S/C and whoop LS1's like yesterday's news. Brakes and 6spd ........ ...... ...... no comment http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif |
My buddy just traded in his 97 GT and bought a 2001 Camaro SS Z28, fully loaded, 6 speed, and he was out the door at arond 32K. I have rode in it and raced it, and I was not impressed at all. In my opinion it is not worth the money...
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i hope your friend got a courtesy reach around with that a** raping! |
I meant that I prefer the way a mustang has a trunk as opposed to how we have a hatch..
So the 4.6 is better than the LS1 because of the hp per liter argument?? You guys that think the 4.6 is so great are the same ones that would be happy as hell if Ford offered a 351.. Now everyone knows why they make more than one kind of car.. some people like Mustang styling better.. some fbody.. hell some even like Azteks http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE |
Steve2000SS, are you sure the brakes are better??? I have never noticed what GM provided on the F-Bodies, but I know that my 2000GT has kick *** brakes. Something like 115ft from 60 - 0MPH... the same as an Integra Type R!
About the seats, I totally agree... what the hell where they thinking of??? The headrest is there for apearance only,... if you try and lean your head on it... you will be looking at the ceiling!!! The TA has very supportive seats. |
Steve.
What Mustanger wouldnt be happy if Ford offered an optional 5.7L 351 in the Mustang? As long as it produced sufficeint Horse Power. And I think the 4.6 is great. Just like majority of those who drive LS-1s think the 348 (or is it 346)SBD-2 small block is the best thing since sliced bread. Its NOT. If the cars as good as every GM person says, how come it cant move its self from Dealers showroom floors or lots? I'll give the Camaro one thing, I'd rather drive it than a import. But then I'd rather drive a Trans-Am than the Camaro. ------------------ 64 1/2 "D" code Red Mustang Coupe. 289, C4, 3:1 rear gear. Mallory duel point. Ported & Polished 65 heads shaved .01 with 351 windsor valves, 11:1 comp, 1.7:1 sled rockers, blue wolverine lumpy cam, modified autolite 4100 Hipo 4 barrel. And to many others to list 2000 Perf Red Mustang GT. 5spd. BBK Underdrive pulleys, Flotech off-road H pipe. Hurst T-Handle 64 1/2 red 6cyl coupe. Auto. project car. |
The LS1 isnt the best engine out there.. but its in the top ten.. and the LS1 is the reason any fbodys at all sell.. the reason fbods dont sell well is:
1. hard to live with on daily basis (hard to get in and out of) compared to other cars. 2. long hood makes for a feeling that the car is bigger than it is. 3. bad (non-existent) marketing You cant fault the engine.. after all its the same one as in the Vette and they have great sales. As for brakes.. im not sure what the stopping distance is but the rotors are huge ~12inches.. So until I get so stopping distance #'s i will retract the brake statement http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE |
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No one has brought up the rear ends yet. The stangs come with an awesome rear that has put folks in the 10's. The Camaros rear is much smaller and weaker, but I do like the idea of a 6 spd trans. It would let you run steeper gears on the street.
------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, BBK Longtubes, Flowmaster cat back, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, FMS aluminum driveshaft, weld in subframe connectors |
Yes, both cars have their advantages and disadvantages.
The LS1 is a great motor in the sense of the ammount of power it delivers versus gas mileage and efficiency. The F-Bodies are far from being perfect and so does the Mustangs. About the pricing issue: Mustang GT MSRP Base: $23,230 Camaro Z28 MSRP Base: $23,445 Sources: www.ford.com and www.chevrolet.com The base Z28 comes with Air, power everything except both seats. It does lack a CD player and T-Tops and other things but it is a well equiped car. Which brings me to another point, doesn't it piss you off when people say a car is fully loaded when it is not on used car sites? ALL Z's (except 1LE) come with Air and power everything but they list it as fully loaded when it doesn't have T-Tops and CD player. Geez! |
So we need the GM 6speed with the Ford rearend?? http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif ~~ The engine so far back in the fbods does make them harder to work on.. but i think having the weight so far back behind the front wheels really helps on the handling.. This whole thread started with someone say there is a $15k difference between the fbod and GT.. thats nuts.. my SS(fully loaded, t-tops, PS cooler, etc) was about $28k.. my friend just bought a 2001 Z28 for around $22k (just under invoice).. I think most GT's are going for around 21ish.. right?.. As for Mustangs outselling Fbods we all know that most stangs are sold as V6 and or to non-performance oriented people (john Q public).. a v6 mustang is simply a better everyday transportation car than a v6 camaro.. A Gt is also easier to live with and has cheaper insurance than a Z28.. hence Mustangs outsell fbodies.. plus you have that really cool horse logo http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif
------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE |
Oh.. and one other thing.. you ford guys need to take the ford vs chevy think a little lighter (not all but quite a few ive come across).. When I go to shows the most hostile people there are usually the newer mustang owners.. I won one time for best late model (against a bunch of stangs) and they actually boo'ed.. talk about bad sportsmanship.. another time I was parking at a cruise (only a few spaces left) near some stangs and a guy actually asked me not to park by them.. so I called "why.. think ill make ya look bad?".. he was silent after that.. I hate the phrase but "cant we all just get along?"
------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE |
i don't know why anyone would by a v6 camaro or mustang other than so they could go around saying "look at me, i have a mustang/camaro, i'm cool". Thats what really pisses me off. I know that there are a FEW (like, sub 1%) people who buy them cause they want to mod a car but don't want crazy insurance, but almost 100% are just buying it for the image. I don't understand why you would buy ANY sports car without the big engine, b/c you sacrifice interior space, noise, and general comfort because of the fact that its a sports car.
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Dinotmite,
I agree a 100% with you! I feel exaclty the same way. What's the point of owning a sports car that doesn't act like a sports car? It's for the same reason people buy the biggest SUV's they can find, for looks. Look at me! I am a better human being because I have a Mustang/Camaro look alike! Most people couldn't care less about true performance and that's why the Muscle car is in trouble. To me performance has nothing to do with cup holders and luggage capacity. It's how fast the thing goes and how easy it is to modify it to go faster. I like the Ford/Chevy competition but my favorite races are still against yuppy cars. Boxters, Z3's, M3's and 740's. Those are a lot of fun! |
The rivalry between the Camaro and Mustang is classic, and often vicious one.
I can't imagine what it would have been like back in the late 60's and early 70's when you had all 3 auto makers each making several awesome cars. It would be way more fun. Although I still think that the competition is comming, there are a lot of new sport compacts (not just imports) that are starting to gain popularity. And while a good portion of them may not be competition on the track or street, they sure will be when it comes to sales figures That is why I love the V6 mustang, so many guys bash it, but with out it the V8 mustang could be going the same way the F-bodies are, you never know with them bean counters running things these days. |
Well I can't speak for everyone but my mother has a v6 96 convertible Mustang that she just loves to death. She used to have a 5.0 but when we went to look at newer Mustangs she was going to buy the GT... then she saw this convertible and had to have it. She said she didn't care about owning a V8 anymore. She just wanted to have her cake and eat it to. In this case get great gas mileage (she drives 30 miles to work) and have the nice look of the SN95's. Of course shes 49 years old. So we can't really knock all people that buy the v6's. Just the people that buy the V6's and think they're the **** . By the way, nice thread. Good to see we're all more or less getting along. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif
------------------ Team Xspeed Leader/Co-Founder 1990 Black Mustang GT 5spd Current Mods: 2 1/2 Offroad H-Pipe, Borla Cat-Back Exhaust, 91-93 5 Star Pony Wheels, K&N Filter, Free Mods, Pioneer Headunit, MB Quartz Speakers, Orion Xtreme 300 Amp, 2 JL Audio W0's, 130 Amp Alternator, 3.73's, Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter Future Mods: Engine rebuild with Trickflow Heads, GT-40 Intake, Custom Ground Cam, and 14lb ATI Procharger! AIM=xspeed02 |
Good points 95. You are right about that but it still doesn't change the way I feel about it.
I think there is plenty of cars that make a much better commuter than a Mustang or Camaro. She still gets a great looking car. |
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I agree LT, but as long as all the V6's are selling we'll always have our V8's http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif! (I don't thing GM is going to go very long before returning to a V8 Sports car) |
God, I hope you are right. How about a 4 valve per cylinder electronically controled 350? That would be sweet!
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I'm 24, and have eight cylinders under the hood.
Unlike xspeed02's mother, when i'm 49, i hope to be at twelve cylinders http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif (all due respect to y're mum) Again, it all boils down to money. The accountants won't approve a muscle car for production with decent ergonomic's. The only good part left is power, and the consumer has to pay through the nose for it. Not many can, that's why they sit for ever on the dealer lot's. IMO for the new 'Stang, Seating, ditch the dining room style seats. Maybe next year Ford can use the left over F-Body bucket's? Shifter, move the shifter about 1 foot back. I'm amazed how they can get away with a shifter that's terribly misplaced as it is. I'm like the hunch-back of notre-dame, shifting his way home. Power. 300HP wouldn't hurt. A functional hood scoop would be good. Maybe borrow the WS6 idea from the defunct f-body? Options. How about getting peoples blood pumping (and NOT charge an arm and a leg) for an optional "Drag Package", with special emblems identifying it as such. You know, 4:10 gearing, special exhaust, traction bars w/subframe connectors, Bear brakes. Oh yeah, and lowered from the factory by 8 inches. Yup, that sounds like what a muscle car should be http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif |
Yep, thats the way they should off them, with Optional drag packs. Unfortunatley though, With tight wad bean counters and a law suit happy Public, I dont think we'll be seeing any of that from the factory.
Just think, if some dumba$$ can sue MC DOnalds for spilling hot coffie on themselves, and having a hot pickle fall out of there burger and burn there chin, just think what would happen to ford if they offered a drag pack. I personally would sell everything I own to by such a Ford factory beast. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif |
One of my old friends had a hot pickle fall out of his pants and into the lap of a cute girl at the bus stop, nobody get sued http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/eek.gif
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Dude! The F-Body isn't dead yet and you're already picking up spare parts! http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif I guess we should be flatered. http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif
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------------------ Team Xspeed Leader/Co-Founder 1990 Black Mustang GT 5spd Current Mods: 2 1/2 Offroad H-Pipe, Borla Cat-Back Exhaust, 91-93 5 Star Pony Wheels, K&N Filter, Free Mods, Pioneer Headunit, MB Quartz Speakers, Orion Xtreme 300 Amp, 2 JL Audio W0's, 130 Amp Alternator, 3.73's, Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter Future Mods: Engine rebuild with Trickflow Heads, GT-40 Intake, Custom Ground Cam, and 14lb ATI Procharger! AIM=xspeed02 |
I retire in 2041 (2031 if I have my way http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/wink.gif),
I wonder if the mustang will still be around? Who knows by then we may have another type of fuel and Cool V8's will no longer exist http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/frown.gif a subject that is a little different to think about anyways... |
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