Modded Camaro SS can't live up to ETs?
 

Here is the scene:

I'm at the track last weekend for presumably the last time this year. It's a nice day, sunny with light winds and temps in the 50's - 60's.

I make my first pass with my new Tremec and go 13.3 @ 104.6. While in line, I take notice of a Camaro SS (newer stlye, '01, I believe) with BFG drag radials, LID (whatever this is?), and some other goodies that the driver is telling others in line what he has. The SS was clean, sounded very mean (I don't think it was the stock exhaust), and the driver appeared to be experienced based on his discussions with other drivers. As we proceed in line it becomes evident that I'm not going to get to line up against him (which I really wanted to do), but rather am two races behind him.

I see him do a burn out, then pull up the line. At this point I am very anxious to see his run considering all that I have heard and read about how ungodly fast these beasts are even in un-modded form.

Now, before I get to his run, I have heard and read about STOCK LS1 Camaro's going 12.7's @ 110 on street tires and the paper filter with 50 miles on them. So, with mods (especially the drag radials), I'm thinking this guy is going to go at least 12.4 - 12.5 @ 112 or so.

The tree goes green and he takes off - not spinning or anything, I hear him chirp 2nd and 3rd - should be a good run, right? Well, here is the result of the run:

13.3 @ 106

So what's up with this? I guess what I'm really getting at is that I have yet to see these so called "beasts from the factory" that many LS1 guys talk about. Do you guys see many of them at your local tracks? Or, is this just another case of over-hyped claims from people who talk about one guy who's friend has an uncle that used to own an LS1 that went 12.7 @ 110 on a 30 degree day with a 50mph down-track wind and 5% graded track?

No flames intended, I'm just really curious as to what you guys are seeing in your areas.

Take care,
E

I am with you on this one, I have yet to see one run under 13.5 or so, the quickest one I have seen is a 00 with a 200 shot,2800 stall,exhaust etc. he ran a 11.8 but the ones with bolt ons usually running mid 13's

Here in Atlanta I have seen most of them run in the low 14's to high 13 marks. Seen Vettes do the same. GT's running from 10's to 17's. Most of the 11 second cars here were the older chevelles and stangs. I guess it really depends on a lot of factors. Mainly the driver and track condition. Did see a dodge caravan 4cyl turbo go high 10's...That was awsome:cool: Nothing like having a bad a$$ family car eh?

well i personally have run 13.5@105 at kil kare raceway this summer in ohio. this with typical aug weather in ohio. my 99 is bone stock, all that has been done is routine maint. this on my usual crappy 2.2 60fts.
any factory car has there up and down in performance and to make it even worse you have to factor in the driver and weather when you compare times.
so is it possible there are factory stock 12 sec 1/4 mile ls1 cars out there? sure. i would not call that the norm though. most i've seen run mid to low 13's.
i would actually call mine one of the slower ls1's. i've driven mine long enough and i still go around and test drive a few here and there (just for the he** of it :) ) i will not forget 1 particular ss i drove. with 15 miles on the odo this 2000 (yes this was back in 2000, so it was new) made my ws6 feel slow. this driving them back to back. so the factory freaks are out there.

oh, and if everyone wanted to post what an ls1 ran off my 1st run down the track in it, these cars would be running mid 14's then. :o :D

in GM's defense, I see most 96 and newer cobras running low 14's at my local track. I had a 97 cobra with an s-trim, and now I have an 89LX, you figure it out. Not impressed with the DOHC cars.

My buddy has a 01 WS6

He goes to Muncie track w/ Nitto 555's, they are 285/40/17's, k&n, lid, 160* thermostat..He runs 13.2's all day long.
He has since put on a new MAF and I think he only picked up 1 tenth of a second..

***Now, before I get to his run, I have heard and read about STOCK LS1 Camaro's going 12.7's @ 110 on street tires and the paper filter with 50 miles on them. So, with mods (especially the drag radials), I'm thinking this guy is going to go at least 12.4 - 12.5 @ 112 or so.

That is what MM&FF said they got their SS to run. The 02's are faster, the 6-speeds can go high 12's with a good driver. My 00 SS A4 is running 13.4's bone stock. 12's are very possible for an 02 all stock, especially a M6. Once again it all comes down to the driver.

***He goes to Muncie track w/ Nitto 555's, they are 285/40/17's, k&n, lid, 160* thermostat..He runs 13.2's all day long.
He has since put on a new MAF and I think he only picked up 1 tenth of a second..

He ONLY picked up a tenth with a new mass air, a tenth is quite a bit man.

My friends pretty much stock 2001 ss camaro runs 12.92 @ 109. It just has exhaust done. Also he ran on slicks. Maybe the one you saw was an auto trans car. The auto ones are a little bit slower than the manuals. But then again i have seen a 2001 T/A auto run a 13.05 @ 108. The same setup, just exhaust. I would say the driver has something to do with it.:rolleyes:

The LS1 cars have the HP to run those times stock, it all comes down to driver and tires.:D

Hey Bad Dad
 

Nice Times, Bad Dad!

I wish I had a Bad Dad. Mine thinks cars are a waste of time and money.

I have seen a STOCK motor one with a K&N and EX AND slicks got a 11.8-9 BUT it was striped TO the MAX one drag seat and review mirror was out and the stock streering wheel was gone as well. But motor was stock I might have a pic..... well I guess I dont have one.. BUT the car was not a street car

Okay, Time for me to throw my two cents in. :D

I've heard and read about these Demi-God Like performing LS-1's. A GM lover that I know swore up and down that his buddies LS-1's ran Low Low low 13,s, and High 12,s stock. Here in Fayetteville.

Well, Tim C and a few other Mustangers started going to the track and saw these supposed Low 13 sec cars running. They all ran Mid 13's, with not one of them dipping below 13.5. Thats on a 50-55 degree night with 30% humidity (Humidity here is usually alot higher).

The one that ran 13.5 was a 99 Camaro 6 spd. He claims to be stock, but I've heard otherwise. Since I dont really know, I'll assume hes stock. The rest ran an average of 13.7.

On another note, you get 96-98 Cobras with just gears running 13.7's and 13.6's out there also. On the same day!

The average 99 + GT driver pulls 13.9's or 14.0. Tim C and the gang told me there was a Roush Stage 2 Coupe with gears out there runnning 13.7's, and a 2001 GT Convert 5 spd Powershifting his way to 13.8's.

Now I must admit, theres a black 2000 Camaro SS with some mods (The guy wont say what) running High 12's. His best was a 12.7.....something. But he doesnt drive the car at the strip. He NEVER DOES. He has a friend drive it. With him driving, I could beat him. He's a sorry sorry driver.

My '98 Trans Am, Automatic with 2:73 gears ran 13.17@106.49 1st time at the track on street tires! my only mods were: Lid, Ported stock MAF,and a Flowmaster. it was 55 degrees there were many others there running low 12's with bolt ons(headers & converters) so it is possible but I too have seen slow LS1's, some just seem slower but I have yet to see one here in Florida run less than 13.99 also I have yet to see one with less than a 100 mph trap speed even in HOT weather, not saying that they are not out there but if they are it's either the altitude or somethings wrong with the car!

Hmm, well i live close to the track, matter of fact, i can here the bracket racers if i open my window, damn im lucky:) anyway, i just dont see it, i never see any stock f-bods running quicker then 13.3's around 106? and there is lots of them that go to the track, sometimes the stangs are outnumbered, lol rarely, im sure the freaks are out there, and i know about the mm&ff article, but i just dont see it.

i agree, that most ls1's always at least trap 100 mph, i seen a 00 t/a go 14.5 @101, he was the most terrible driver i have seen, and the only ls1 i have ever beat:D

now i really enjoy seeing the blown ones run, those things hook up and go!

I've beaten 3 LS1's. There is no way in hell my car would have run a mid 13. Actually, never lost to one.

12.9 on slicks huh? Unimpressive. My beat up fox would run in the low low 13's with just slicks added on at this point.

I saw a stock 2000 Camaro SS with a auto run a 8.50 at 84mph at my local 1/8 mile track

8.50? thats not bad, i have run best 8.80 with all cat cverters, and radials.

unit you think low 13's with your car with slicks? thats cool, im going to the track tommorow, im gonna borrow some welds with e.t. streets on them, so im probaly gonna change my sig:D im thinking 13.6, maybe 13.5 with a hard launch, hope my axles are up to it.

C'mon, I thought you guys were smarter than that. Never underestimate your opponent!

Here is what I see: Most running mid to low 13's @ 105-109 mph. The guys who run these times can't drive. The good drivers are getting 12.8 and 12.9's out of them with the free stuff and drag radials.

The Auto cars are the ones to watch when they are set up right. A guy in our car club has an auto SS with a converter, headers, and other bolt ons only and runs mid 11's @ 114 on ET Streets. THIS IS A BOLT ON CAR!!!

A bunch more guys in the group are running mid to low 12's around 110 mph as well.


Trust me, they run!!

They are indeed fast, but not "ungodly" fast. Just a great stock performer. My friend has a 92 LX with 3.73's, full exhaust a cam and a 8 psi Vortech and a 01 WS-6 hung with him all the way. Now I know he has a 12 second car. He dynoed 296 rwhp. So these cars are definately fast. I personally like them. They are good looking, powerful and clean, but hate how all the GM guys (give or take a few) think they are unbeatable.

exgm - interesting stuff. I have just not seen it at our local track. Week in and week out there seem to be a plethora of mid-high 13 LS1's and maybe one N/A in the 12's. In fact last year one class-less individual with a LS1 Firebird with a Calvin peeing on Ford sticker (hence, class-less) power-shifted his way to a 14.2 and 14.1.

I have heard that adjusting the stall on the auto's can yield some impressive results.

Keep the results from your areas rolling in...it is good to know your oppenent - and no, I don't underestimate mine.

E

I just dont see it, Maybe GM shipped all its TURD LS-1's to Fayetteville or something.

One thing, most of the guys running LS-1's at the strip are on the average, 18 years old. But there are a few that are older, they seem to run slightly faster but only by a tenth or two.

Also I thought F-Bodys had a 5 link suspension. I only count 4 links. Where is this MISSING LINK.

I agree with Dustin. The track is a whole different world than the street Most of the 13 second stocker LS1's you see are driven by kids and are just "filler" and don't get anyone too excited.


Kinda like the billions of loud "Flowmasters and gears" 14 second Mustangs we are also all now accustomed to seeing. But everone has to start somewhere.

Another local guy (Y2K Hawk on www.camaroz28.com) makes 580 rwhp with a stock LS1 and a couple hairdriers from Incon!

i would love to have those "haiirdriers from incon"!!! :D

i have seen when i lived in Indiana a 98 Z28 run 13.3s @ 109 with a id and shifter. Now that i live in Palm Beach FL i see many more LS1s. SOme i see run 14.0s @ 100. Other with more bolt ons run low 13s. these are powerful cars, and at the same time i feel, from what i have seen at the track, that people have to really abuse the car to get those times. LS1 guys, if i'm mistaken about that let me know.

I like these cars and was looking to buy one until i started talking to guys at the track about them. One guy i have talked to quite a bit has a Formula with less than 30K on it. it has a headers, off-road y pipe and cat back, plus a lid. before he put 100 shot on it the car has went through THREE rear ends. These cars are powerful, on the other hand there seems to be some quality issues when it comes to taking them to the track a lot. The clutches like to fade out also at the track from what the LS1 owners were saying. since i like to go to the track weekly, these conversations with the ls1 owners really turned me off.

I have been the the track quite frequently, and I see the LS1's not going fast because of traction.

The fastest LS1 driver last time I was there told me that he couldnt launch over 3000rpm cuz either the tires would spin or the clutch would smoke.

he was running 13.1@108 with 2-3 boltons

the rest were all in the 13's, mostly mid 13's a couple verts high 13's.


Skyler

The durability issues with LS1's are the crappy 10 bolt, the clutch, and pushrods that love to bend.

The one thing I do love about my Mustang is the cheap cost to fix and mod. A good clutch alone for an LS1 is like 700 bucks. Around 1200-1300.oo after you pay the shop to do it.

Like anything, If you race it, you WILL break it.

Exgmguy makes a very good point, never underestimate your opponent. I am in San antonio and I see them run at River City alot. I too was in doubt of their potential since they seem to just run13.5-14.0 @100-106mph from stock to lightly modded (exhaust, lid etc). Actually a very good friend of mine with a 99 ram air firebird ran a 13.2@108 with all the free mods, longtubes, 4.10 gears and all the bolt ons you can think of. So I assumed this was all internet talk I was hearing about esp on LS1.com
Well I went to a rinky dink track (Alamo dragway) just a few miles down the street and the first LS1 (2001) I saw run, with paper tags and all else stock too, pulled a 13.5@107mph!!! The next guy (whose car looked like Gonzo's TA, white with blue strips) with just bolt ons as well pulled a 12.9@111mph all on street tires. So the morale is the track elavation makes a difference too.
Soon I saw more of them running 106-108mph traps at houston stock. And yes I have personally seen one with just bolt ons run 11.6@114mph and there is a video I have on my hard drive where a guy with a 6sp run 11.9@114mph with just bolt ons on drag radials. So they can run, u just have to drive the piss out of them.

Oh yea if I told U I have a 347 with bolt on TFS heads, stg one cam and track heat intake on my car ran a 12.00 @ 113mph, it will be believable. Well guess what guys, stock LS1 heads flow almost approx. the same as the out of the box TFS, and their stock intake flows better than the TFS one, but the cam is smaller (of course!!).

I love the stang but give respect where its due and the LS1s do run even though I love pulling them though :D:D

A well known point!
 

Yes, its a well known point that GM heads flow a hell of a lot better than Ford heads.

When it comes to small block Fords, the Absolute hold back on perfromance is they Cylinder heads. Stock Ford small block heads suck. Thank god theres and wide selection of aftermarket heads out there for us.

The news about the heads is nothing new or surprising.

I don't think small block Ford heads suck. I think Ford just matched their combos quite well. A car with 225hp was setup for 225hp, not 300hp with a mismatched cam.

It would be nice if it was and all you had to do was slap a cam on a 5.0 and pick up 50hp, but just not the way they were built. Except for the 5.0 Cobra's. That was pretty restricted setup, hehe.

Since everyone is throwing in their 2 cents so will I. There are just as many 13 second stock mustangs as 12 second stock LS1s. I attend about 30-35 test and tunes a year so I see them first hand not word of mouth. For every 8 LS1s at the track only one will have a decent driver but fact is they are very fast cars in stock form. One example comes to mind, a guy from Lauderdale that bought a WS6 two months ago put on a lid, cutouts, longtubes, adjustable shocks, lowering springs and nittos and went 12.49 @ 111 NA. Then turned on his 125 shot on the last pass and went 11.87 @ 120 with poor traction. The car only has a few thousand miles and will get quicker with more breakin.

The transmissions in these cars auto or manual are very strong unfortunately the rears and clutches aren't. Most of the serious guys have either broken rear ends or smoked their clutches. A good rear end swap for those cars is in the $2500 range so they just fix them and live with street tires or nittos. I usually race against a group of 8 or 9 LS1 guys in the pro tree lanes they have the basic bolt-ons and only about 2 of them will I even be close with and that is usually due to a good light against them. But generally speaking I rarely win even with my 12 second passes. If I went over to the sportsman lanes I would clean house against the average to below average LS1 driver but I don't feel like sitting in line with the ricers and listening to arguements about whos car has more power per litre.

Bill

they vary alot in times here too... you cant slip the clutch on them off the line or it will fry.. thats why most of them are getting 2.3-2.4+ 60 ft's on street tires... they take alot more work to launch than a stang... and I've also seen a bone stock LS-1 put down 320HP to the wheels..
say what you want, they are still faster bone stock than any bone stock mustang... hell, my brothers stock LT-1 went 13.90 @103 on a 2.4 60ft with 80k miles, no gears, no Dr's.. not even a K&N... I have yet to see a mustang run 13's stock...without gears, Dr's etc...

True, for the most part, but darkknight, my coupe had a 5spd, 3.27grs, electric fan, and coldair induction, all catcvters, 225/60 tires, went 13.91 @ 98 mph, with a 2.0 60', yea thats not stock, but big deal, the fan?? with e.t. streets id click off a 13.70 most likely. oh yea, i removed the front swaybar, wich gave me a little better 60 ft.

Re: A well known point!
 

So why are u surprised they can kick your ***. (ok sorry low blow :D )

Excellent point

Kponti.....Surprised when what kicks my A$$
 

KPonti. (Which I assume stands for Killer Pontiac...Or something Pontiac. Could be wrong.)

When I built my 289, I didnt leave the stock 289 heads with there stock flow numbers, I did alittle porting here and there. She's taken out LT-1's before. But not quick enough for the LS-1's. Well not yet.

I've never raced a SS in my 2000 GT yet, dont really plan on it till I get my gears, and am alittle more comfortable with my launching ability.

One of my friends that posts here, Tim C, has wittnessed first hand that a 99+ GT, can take on a LS-1 powered F-body. Hell, he has the same mods as me except he has 4:10's in his car, and hes beaten a Moddified LS-1 FireBird infront of a butt load of us.

As for the Stock small block Ford heads, Unit made a very good point, one that I obviuosly didnt consider before posting. I ment that once you start changing simple things like Intakes and Cams, the heads are holding you back.

Actually, I retract that statement. Consider the power gained using stock cam and intake but changing to a set of Good aftermarket heads on a small block Ford. Kinda makes you wonder.

Pardon me if my post isnt written to well, I've had a few beers, and havent eaten since 2:00 (Its now 12 hours later.) :D Feeling kinda good at the moment..

I really should get my old SD car to the track sometime. Just spend the $100-$200 it would cost me to run it, cause I know I can pull a 13 out of it. It's no faster than it was stock with 160k and a Z spec pushing the 2.73's in the back.

All I have is a Gtech time of 14.19@103.8. The car wasn't setup to really run, had it been I would have gotten a high 13. The mph is generally 3-4 high on the Gtech.

As far as dyno numbers. I don't trust them. There are too many shops out there skewing the information to trust the numbers are accurate. There is no way in hell a stock LS1 will truely put down 320RWHP. :rolleyes: If it could, it's trap would be in excess of 110mph. It should also be running mid 12's if not better.

Re: Kponti.....Surprised when what kicks my A$$
 

No prob man. Have fun, in 2 weeks after finals is over I will be doing the saaaaaame **** :D:D:D:D

My friends's 00 WS6 runs 12.85 with minor bolt ons. His is a 3.23 Auto to.

The factory freaks are out there.

Just think if he put 3.73's or 4.10's in his T/A

I have personally witnessed bone stock LS1's dynoing 316+ rwhp. they were 6 speeds, but I have also seen stock auto's bumping 310 stock. my '99 automatic SS dynoed 306.6 with only a lid and I dynoed it at a Mustang shop! ;) I also have seen stock LS1's dip in the 12's with excellent drivers. my '99 clicked off 87.20 in the 1/8th mile and that was my 1st and only pass so far on this car so far! I feel that it has a high 12 in it since my 1/8th mile time was a 8.71@87.20 with a crappy 2.196 60ft time, it should have 1.9's in it with traction. don't get me wrong though I like Mustangs, I have a lot of friends who have them and have been around them for many years and know that they can be made to run. to me Mustangs are friendly competition, ricers however are not!:mad:

My friend has an auto trans 2001 WS6 trans am with gears, headers, Y-PIPE and better converter. It ran a 12.71 @ 108 on drag radials. I was on slicks and he was right there with me the whole way down the 1/4. Kinda makes me sick. Then again I didnt pay over 20 grand for my car either. :D

LS1
 

Well fellow Stangers, I've done 5.0 Mustangs for 12 years...but I have a 2000 LS1 Z28 6speed...my car has run 13.09@110.3 on radials and 12.93@109.6 on Nittos...best 60ft. 2.06... only mods other than cut on factory stuff what the LS1 community calls free mods are as listed...3" Flotech exhaust cut out exhaust all factory... 160 thermostat...cooler heat range spark plugs...$8 plumbing coupling from Home Depot used between MAF to throttle body...I have only made 5 passes at the track just for kicks since this is my daily driver. The car is fully loaded with t-tops,leather, and every bell and whistle. Weighs in a 3450lbs. on the tracks scales. Best bang for the buck so I bought one. Prices for my mods $80 used air lid, $45 for thermostat and housing, $36 for 3" cut out and extra $20 to have it welded, and spark plugs for $15. For whooping approx. $200 12.90's is not shabby. I didn't count on the Nittos because you need street tires and I drive on these everyday to work rain or shine. All I can say is if you line up against me at a light you better be clickn' off 12.90's or better to pack me. If my feelings get hurt that way I'll have to whip out the heavy artillery. 93 Mustang LX 331 with a T-Trim Name it I've probably bolted one on it. :D May The Force Be With You!!!

I used to smoke late-model camaros and Trans- Ams of every type (stock or near stock) with just 4:10's, 75 shot, and Nittos. One night I must have raced ten of them and never got beat. My best time on that night was 13.3 @ 103 (then I blew up my engine!). When you go to the track down here in Central TX its 95% GM (when talking late-models, theres always a ton of 5.0's) I cant wait for the fun I will have with my nearly silent Vortech when I go to the track!

Cool, my post from November got dug up. :D

E