Rice burner vs. Muscle car
 

I like muscle cars just as much as the next guy....but you guys did read about the stock vs. stock testing of the Lotus(1.8 liter) vs. the Cobra R (5.7 liter)???? The Lotus beat it in ever aspect except drifting and the lotus was a cheaper buy. Did you guys see the video at neon.org of that neon beating a dodge viper? or how about that 88 dodge van that beat the 98 z28?

What is the resale value of a Neon or a '88 van? They are just pissing their money away on a junk car. You gotta have something to start with before you build it up. I see videos like that & I wonder, "How many of those neons are out there?" I bet the ratio of Neons that can beat a Mustang is like 20,000 to 1 & 100,000 to one with the Viper. ;)

Re: Rice burner vs. Muscle car
 

I too read that issue of "Sport Compact Car" or the other Import mag and you have to consider the source. It's an Import car magazine so the Lotus Elise had to win. We both know who really won those tests. The Mustang Cobra R! I don't have the issue in front of me, but the Lotus Elise was modified with a built Honda B18 motor. The Elise weights around 1500lbs. The chances of any of us running into one on American soil is slim to none. Don't worry about the Lotus Elise.

I agree with you guys on that one. The ratio of seeing many fast civics or neons to fast mustangs is very large.

BTW that 12 second turbo caravan is cool! The guy just died in a motorcycle accident too :( :(

Later,
nick

What? How can you deny numbers just because it comes from a certain magazine? If you look around all the internet sites, you will see that the Lotus DOES run faster than the Cobra R AND its cheaper in price. As for resale value, they are both in that same category. I think the Cobra R, which runs like a 13.5, is more of a collectible than an example of what power ford can produce. I love my mustang, and i've always seen the mustang as the most powerful monster on the road...but now days, its just not true. which sux. Buy the way, i think people go to cars like neons because its easier to fix up, its more affordable to fix up(my friend just found his hipo 2.0L built engine for $200), they are lighter and end up doing well in quarter miles and such.

:confused: I thoght the Elise wasn't legal for sale in the U.S. due to crash-worthiness issues. I'm sure that if Ford didn't have to worry about the NHTSA, they would have no problem destroying the Elise.:D

LOL, and I bet you believe ever word in the National Inquirer! Magzines can change a story around so fast it will make your head spin. We all remember the story about the Integra Type R that beat the Standard GT. After the Mustang Kicked the Type R's a** around in every aspect, they modified the test so that the mustang could not win. ALWAYS take a magzine article with a grain of salt. Especially if it is an import mag talking about a domestic or a domestic mag talking about an import.

You have much to learn dear grasshopper if you think the lotus is in the same category as a Cobra R (or smoking crack :) ). The Cobra R is a VERY limited Production factory Road racer. There were only 300 built. Buying a Cobra R is buying an investment. The value will only go up. Not true for the lotus or 99.99% of other cars on the road (including other mustangs).

1. The Corba R is a track machine not a drag car
2. The numbers that I have seen are close to mid 12's with slicks or high 12's low 13's on street tires. Of course we're limited to believeing magazines on this car due to the rarity of the car :).


LOL. I guess you have to define "fix up" Even for regular maintanence items, my 95, 5.0L mustang has been MUCH than my wife's chev cavalier, my friends Pick-up, co-workers Honda, etc, etc. This list goes on. I can't speak for the 4.6 as my experience is limited mostly to the 5.0.

If you want to start talking performance "fix up's". Hell will freeze over before that happens :)

LOL, I have yet to EVER witness, talk to someone, read about, dream about or do drugs and visualize a neon do better than a Mustang at a 1/4 mile track. I don't think I've ever even heard that the words "Neo" ,"well" and "1/4 mile" used in the same sentence before!

Yes they are lighter, but with a 100+ HP disadvantage, they need to lose another 1000 pounds before they start to do "well" at the "1/4 mile".

I don't mean to come down on you buddy, it just kinda happened that way :)

Cobra R has turned very early 12s with slicks.

PS - How many chicks are you going to bang driving a 88 Dodge Van. I think I'll stick to my stang.

LOL@steeda90 ooooo my gawd I can't believe you just said that !!! haahaa still funny though!:D ;)

How is a Lotus Elise rice? Please someone clear this up for me. They are Brittish cars. Not only that, but they are pretty darn sweet if you ask me. Basically a car running a motorcycle engine, and no unnescicary crap to weigh it down.

I don't have the magazine, but I would put money on that car beating the Cobra R around a track. Especially one that is really tight. That's what the car is made for.

If someone can find the article on line, please post a link. I'm interested to see what all the fuss is about.

As for Dodge vans, and Neons, I want zero to do with them, believe me. But that Lotus is a bad a** car.

;) Know what's even funnier? These ricers are saying similar things. When someone points out that a GT, Cobra, Vette is faster then their modded Hondas/Acuras they come back with "Yeah but we get all the honeys"

What girl, besides some ghetto-skank, toothless, welfare ***** would actually think a Honda or Integra looks masculine? Every girl I ask always tells me the same thing...They love mustangs, vettes, etc...

The Lotus Elise sold in the states has an Integra Type R motor in it because the Rover engine doesn't meet emissions standards. I definitely wouldn't call it Rice as it performs well in every category, but I'll still take the Cobra R anyday, '95 or '00!
As for a Neon being easier to fix up than a Stang, put down the crack and step away from the pipe. Easy to fix up means large aftermarket parts availability and good horsepower gains for the amount of money you have to spend... of course the 5.0 would be a nice example of this.

LOL true true I know them scrawny little rice boys don't do anything for me..... Guess that is why they drive hondas can't handle any real HP!!!!

See Ya
Karen:cool:

ANY car will go fast if you have the money. But why put all that money in a ricer and sound like a swarm of bees going down the road and get laughed at while you can buy a Stang and get thumbs up all day long.

Hey Lotus' are nice cars thats a given. But now were talkin about neons and caravans? Well if you have the money to hook up a neon and make it fast, do this. 1) Get a mustang....make it the top of the line. 2) Get a neon, fix it up which will be challenging and hang out with the rice boys. This way if you have money u can be on both sides and see which one is about real cars.

I usually don't listen to too much that magazines have to say about cars in general, including performance specs. A lot of times, magazines have 1/4 mile times and 0-60 times that are off, some faster and some slower, but I figure if you take the average of the mags, you will end up with a pretty close estimate. In terms of comparing the Lotus and the Cobra R, I see that as a fair comparison for these reasons: You are not going to see very many REAL Cobra R's because their weren't many produced and also, if you don't live in Southern California or Florida, you probably will never see a Lotus either. The Lotus is faster in all tests, but it isn't like it was an unfair competition. The Cobra R performs similarly, but is a step behind the Lotus. The Z06 and Viper are also in this "semi-exotic" sport car area although the Viper is very far off in terms of pricing. I don't know if you ever look at the Dupont Registry, but Lotus vehicles DO NOT lose their value, and if their aren't that many brought into the states, the value of the car will go up slightly. The 00 Cobra R isn't going to drop in value, but it isn't going to be the same situation as with older "classic" American cars regardless of what people think. Given a choice between the ITR powered Lotus, and a Cobra R for a streetable track car, I would take the Lotus based on performance and price....not very many Cobra R's sold for anywhere near the 55k sticker price. Add the Z06 to that list however and I'm taking the car with air conditioning and a radio with similar performance to the other two that don't have those standard for a similar price.

lol, Mustang V8 = Masculine

A Lotus is definately not rice (from factory ;) ). But I'm still not sure I would put it in the same category as a Lotus or vette for that matter. A Cobra R is definately a collector's car. In 25 years it will be worth more than it is today, guaranteed.

I would rather take a Cobra R over a Lotus, only because of the rarity.

A Lotus will not drop like a standard car, but I still don't think it will hold value like a limited production factory race car, JMO.

Technically the Lotus as mentioned is a limited production race car too. What I dont understand is this...I know the lotus is LIGHT, but how the heck can that little underpowered sewing machine engine still match the big brute 380 HP Cobra engine? Doesnt the ITR motor only put out 200 HP? I know the lotus is light, but still shouldnt Cobra out power it in the top end?

Well, according to lotus uk, the car weight 1663lbs. With a 200bhp Honda motor, that's a pretty good power to weight. Throw in 3.96 gears, and double wishbone track set up, and it would give the R a run for its money on a circut.

This idea is nothing new, look at the classic Porsches, 550, 356, etc. Light 'underpowered' cars running rampant on the international scene. I'm rooting for the Cobra as much as anyone here, I've just seen too many high end European GT's to doubt their performance.

Wow, 1663lbs!!! Ok, now I understand....I thought they were well into the 2,000 range. I sure as hell wouldnt want to drive in a 1663lb car everyday though. That thing must sound like a tin can skateboard(probably just as safe as one too)

I got to get up close to a couple at the LA Auto Show this year. The cars are amazing. Almost pure race car.

Just because it is light doesn't mean it isn't safe. Sure if it were to get into a collision with a behemoth SUV things would be bad, but then again, an SUV would put a hurtin on most cars on the road today. The final drive for the ITR powered Lotus is 4.40:1 btw. I still don't see why people can't believe the Lotus could beat the Cobra R so here are some numbers for you.

Cobra R
Weight = 3400lbs
Hp = 385
Hp to weight ratio = 1:8.95

ITR Elise
Weight = 1700lbs
Hp = 200
Hp to weight ratio = 1:8.5

Very similar but the Elise has the advantage. Another thing that probably has an effect is aerodynamics. The Elise has a lot less frontal surface area and probably has a lower Cd, but I can't be 100% certain of that.

You might also argue that the Cobra R's spoilers would give it better down force and therefore corner at higher speeds...

That is possible as well, but I am sure that the deck wing and the air dam on the Elise aren't there just for show....I consider aerodynamics basically a wash unless someone can produce some Cd numbers and numbers on the downforce created by these vehicles. One more thing to take into consideration is that the Elise is mid-engine which helps with cornering ability.:D :D

Very true. There is only one thing you can count on, a car from Lotus is going to have superior handling.

I've read about the Cobra R's dukeing it out, but never read how they fair against other cars. Would be interesting reading.

someone mentioned earlier that the cobra r "isn't a drag car" and shouldn't be compared in the quarter mile. but my response to that is that the lotus elise isn't a drag car either. it was designed for the track. and it has tested better in the categories of handling AND speed. and complaining about the resale value of a car is totally like your last defense for the cobra r. if you are a performance enthusiast you shouldn't care about how much you are going to get out of your car, but what you are going to get from putting money in it. I know that I don't put money into my car as an "investment" but as a hobby. I hope the reply about "chicks" was a total joke, because if you are just into racing and cars to get chicks, then you are just a poser anyway. i didn't realize how close minded mustang enthusiasts are. they hate other people because they have four less cylinders, they call them names, and sterotype them(scrawny etc.). that is just sad. mustang is a really great car and i know i love mine, but i dont know about you guys....

I think many members here are fairly open minded. But you have to remember 2 things. 1. This IS a mustang site. 98% of the people here love mustangs more than any other car, so when asking them to compare a mustang to any other car be prepared for a bias answer. Try walking into a sports bar filled with say Toronto Maple Leaf fans, no matter how "close minded" you think these guys are there not going to tell you how much better any other team is.

2. I think you get a lot of 4 cyl bashing, because with the rare exception with guy like inferno, most guys don't know jack and are typical "ricers". 4 cyl cars do suck (performance wise) no matter how many magazines call a civic a "street terror" (I did read that in an import mag once), they get there a** handed to them day in and day out at the track. Many serious mustang guys see this all the time, so are they really close minded? Even the knowledgable import guys get sick of this stuff. They know what it takes to get a fast 4 or 6 cylinder car, but they still know how fast an 8 cylinder car can be. They don't talk smack they just try to get there cars faster, and because they aren't retards, most domestic guys will respect there knowledge.

Hope that sheds some light on the subject for you.

98GTPower - you accuse us of stereotyping people, but that's what you just did to us with your comment about stang owners being "closed minded". Everyone here is an individual and it looks like some are hypocrites too.

I think that there is a Cobra R racing in the SCCA Gt Championship series as well as a couple racing in another racing series against Panoz´s, Jaguar´s, and Vette´s. Unfortunately, most of the people who bought the Cobra R, bought them as a collector´s item and they will never see the street let alone a track. From a simplicity standpoint(at least for me), if I were going to purchase a vehicle with the sole intent of racing it given the choice between the 3 I mentioned before(Elise, Z06, and Cobra R), I would pick the Elise simply because I know how to work on Honda engines, parts aren´t as expensive as a lot of people think they are for Honda´s, and I know that it would be reliable and fuel effecient should I race the car in long races. In terms of a street car, once again I say Z06 hands down, with the Elise coming in second for the "coolness" factor. You would get a lot of looks with an Elise because not very many people would know what it was and would be curious where any one can create a Cobra R clone....unfortunately, I saw a V6 stang with the Cobra R kit and wing:( :( :(

Oh! When will it all end, GOD, when will it all end...:(

I have the Sport Compact Car 5/02 issue
 

I pick up this mag (Sport Compact Car) every once in a while to keep up with what the Import guys are doing. Of course these Import guys wrote the Lotus Elise won, they have to sell magazines. The 1710lbs. Elise with 192rwhp vs. 3590 lbs. Mustang Cobra R with 347 rwhp. The Elise was made for road courses and had shaved racing tires when the Cobra R rode on BFGoodrich g-Force KD street tires. (Don't hold me to it, but I believe the Yokohama A038-R's are racing tires). Sneaky little bastards! The chances of you running into a Lotus Elise in America are slim to none. You have more of a chance of running into a Dodge Viper. Don't worry about that 1710lbs. British skateboard with the Honda B18 motor. If you gave the Cobra R the same tires, I bet it would run better than the Elise!

The tires on the cars are the tires that come when you buy the car. The Yokohama's might have a slight advantage, but maybe not. You are talking like the BFGoodrich g-Force KD street tires are normal everyday use tires. Those are the best tires you can get from BFGoodrich without buying drag radials or full out competition tires that can't see street duty....same thing with the Yokohama's. Then you complain about the Elise being made for road courses....hmmm...last time I checked, the Cobra R was designed for road racing too. Another thing, the chances of running into a REAL 00 Cobra R on the street is probably about the same as running into an Elise. Besides, if you want to get into the what if thing, you can order a supercharged ITR engine when you purchase the Elise from the dealer for a little more and leave no doubt about it at all which car would win. I hope their is no more whining about two cars none of us will probably ever own. Have a nice day.

A mid-engine car vs. a front engine car. The Elise was built for road courses. Have fun with your 3 liters of Fury :D ! I love Import Guys!

Re: Rice burner vs. Muscle car
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
keep this in mind, anything will fly if ya throw it hard enough.(
(rock, toaster, pos Neon) but you take a $80,000 an dump it into a sport car and the same amount into a commuter car...you will get your neon handed to you..plus the sports car will probably take the abuse a whole heck of a lot better.

it all has to do with the oe design from the factory. Was a mustang, viper, SS, built for speed, aerodynamics...yes.
was a 1.6 inline 4 plastic jelly bean Neon built to originlly go more than 110 mph..safetly or reliably...no

Re: Re: Rice burner vs. Muscle car
 

Very well put. This is where ricers and domestics seem to ram their heads though. Ricers just dont understand.

To be truthful, I think the Cobra R's suspension is pretty weak for the money - for that price you should be getting a tubular K-member (especially with that heavy motor they needed to lighten up the front) with better than stock geometry, coilovers, etc.
It does pull a full G on stock tires, but I think it could be alot better...

I would buy the Cobra R over a Lotus anyday. What a car does stock doesnt concern me cause I know it wont stay stock.

Lets do a few bolt ons slap some slicks on them and lets see who wins in the 1/4.

Cobra R all the way Baby!

Didn't the Cobra R's come with NO A/C?... If so, then Dark I figured you of all people wouldn't want it.. Texas Plains + Summer + No A/C = Mobile Saunna..

I don't know about you, but it's too d*mn hot down here to not have an A/C.. I would understand if it was a vert... but geez, I couldn't drive around in the heat like that.....

Nitrous Al, I say once again that the Cobra R was built with road racing in mind. I didn't make that up, Ford execs said it. They didn't design the car to just run the 1/4 or to even really drive on the street hence the lack of AC and a radio. The airdam and wing were put there for high speed stability on road courses. Both cars were designed for road courses, just Elise decided to use a lighter platform, lighter, less powerful engine and make it mid-engine as most of their cars are. Ford built the Cobra R based on the Mustang platform which dictated that they use a heavier but more powerful engine to make up for the added weight of the chassis and motor. To say that the only cars that are "built for road courses" are mid-engine is just plain ignorant.

Quote:

Have fun with your 3 liters of Fury :D ! I love Import Guys!

I plan to have fun with my 3 liters of fury...didn't you read the whole signature?

No A/C ..........Would be pretty hard to handle considering it was 105+ Tues. and Wed.

Dry Texas heat sux.

Yeah... tell me about it... after today I am going to put in my visors for the T-Tops... not used to the sun coming straight down through the roof of the car..

you could always just move
 

to California. I think with the nice beach breeze blowing through today, it was a cool, sunny, 78*. Sorry, just had to do it to you guys in that 100+ :eek: heat ;) :D :D Keith

Keith, be nice to the Texas guys. I almost broke a sweat sitting around at the car show up at the fair grounds. I don't know how you can handle being so far inland.

If you make it out there tomorrow, (Sunday afternoon) I'll be in the group with I a couple '32 sedans, a 47 woody, a '67 Chevelle, and some other stuff. On the side by the swapmeet where the grass meets the campers. Ask one of the old guys if Mike is around (Eric's friend). Its a good time.

As a Lotus Elise owner based in the UK I thought I'd add a few comments to what you have been discussing. Sorry it's so out of date thread wise.

My particular car, being in the UK is fitted with the Rover engine and is a Lotus tuned engine with 160bhp from the factory and abuot 170bhp now. Doing a quick conversion it's about 1580lbs.
Therefore about 235bhp/ton (metric). There are cars running here in the Uk with about 230bhp N/A and some with 260bhp supercharged. For the 1/4 recently, on a less than grippy strip some standard (120bhp) cars were running 14s and a 230bhp in the low 13s. As you have stated the US Elises have either a Honda engine and can be used on the road, or a Rover engine for track use only. The Rover engine was designed for European regulations not US.

As you have said it is all about the corners. If you have a look on my website you will see some videos taken around the Nuerburgring, while my knowledge of the circuit helps, the Elise is very good around there, but some of the longer straights do make it suffer a bit, as i was only touching about 135mph, as opposed to some of the Porsches doing 160mph. A lap is 13miles, and the video doesn't show a full lap as on public days they close off part of the main straight. However the Elise goes round in about 9mins, and thats me taking it easy as I has to drive back to the UK from Germany in the car. Picture of the car on the ring below. :)

Having driven a large number of different vehicles including some US 'muscle' I personally prefer the nimbleness of the Lotus. Most US cars in my experience are not as well sorted suspension wise as European cars, not being contriversial, it's just you don't have the same type of roads we do, so manufacturers don't design for it.

On the subject of tyres, the Yokohame A038 is the standard tyre on the Lotus 340R (Basically a stripped out Elise with a new body shell) this weighs about 1530lbs.


I don't drop in very often but if there are any questions about the car ask away.

Oh yeah, It's only in the last few months on the new model that A/C is available on the Elise, not that suited to the US ;)

My site is http://www.elise-s160.co.uk

ummm just one question. Since when is a 1988 Dodge Van rice?


Although i do love the low 12 sec daily driven Turbo 4 caravan thats always a hoot. The point of those videos isnt to go Hey look domestics are a waste buy import. Theya re to show that witht he right setup and $$ (need the green) anything is possible.

Enough of this Stock for Stock crap
 

Bottom line is the Elise is a bad ***** ride...

But i think we're all missing a major point here

Nobody gives a Rats ***** about stock....

What really matters in a car is its Potential...

its HP potential....and if you match these cars together....

The Cobra can be built up to be way faster than the elise....

It would be eaiser and not cost as much for the Cobra to do...but the elise has to work twice as hard to get to the same....




It's not where you start out at...but its how far you can go....

and im' talking streetable not ridicuouls stuff like a cobra or elise shell with a 4.5 sec drag engine in it....

:D

Re: Enough of this Stock for Stock crap
 

i disagree. under that school of thought, it doesn't matter that Car A currently runs 14.6's and gets tooled consistently by Car B that runs 13.3's, what matters is that Car A has potential to run streetable 10's, whereas Car B doesn't have much potential to get past high 11's.........all the potential in the world isn't going to help Car A beat Car B today

IMO, it isn't how far you CAN go, it is how far you HAVE gone and where you are today

Aren't you all forgetting ford did make a Lotus Elise or I should say they are :D It's called the GT40 coming to a dealership near you soon. Big supercharged 5.4, mid-engined, and light! The only reason the Elise won, is because its gutted. Also who cares if the elise won, even the import guys at the end of that article said they would rather be driving the Cobra R....

Well a few things...first off the comparison was between two 50k sports cars so bringing up the GT40 which is going to be over 100k doesn't make much sense. The Elise is gutted? That is factory weight and there are options for A/C and a radio but NEITHER car had either one.