LT1 & LS1 and the 5.0 &4.6 - Page 2

GONZO99TA · 05-07-2001, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurilius_maximus:
My buddy just traded in his 97 GT and bought a 2001 Camaro SS Z28, fully loaded, 6 speed, and he was out the door at arond 32K. I have rode in it and raced it, and I was not impressed at all. In my opinion it is not worth the money...

either that is a convertible or...
i hope your friend got a courtesy reach around with that a** raping!

Steve2000SS · 05-07-2001, 11:38 AM

I meant that I prefer the way a mustang has a trunk as opposed to how we have a hatch..

So the 4.6 is better than the LS1 because of the hp per liter argument?? You guys that think the 4.6 is so great are the same ones that would be happy as hell if Ford offered a 351..

Now everyone knows why they make more than one kind of car.. some people like Mustang styling better.. some fbody.. hell some even like Azteks

------------------
2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff..
320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

Lizard King · 05-07-2001, 11:53 AM

Steve2000SS, are you sure the brakes are better??? I have never noticed what GM provided on the F-Bodies, but I know that my 2000GT has kick *** brakes. Something like 115ft from 60 - 0MPH... the same as an Integra Type R!

About the seats, I totally agree... what the hell where they thinking of??? The headrest is there for apearance only,... if you try and lean your head on it... you will be looking at the ceiling!!!

The TA has very supportive seats.

Mercury · 05-07-2001, 11:55 AM

Steve.

What Mustanger wouldnt be happy if Ford offered an optional 5.7L 351 in the Mustang? As long as it produced sufficeint Horse Power. And I think the 4.6 is great.

Just like majority of those who drive LS-1s think the 348 (or is it 346)SBD-2 small block is the best thing since sliced bread. Its NOT.

If the cars as good as every GM person says, how come it cant move its self from Dealers showroom floors or lots?

I'll give the Camaro one thing, I'd rather drive it than a import. But then I'd rather drive a Trans-Am than the Camaro.

------------------
64 1/2 "D" code Red Mustang Coupe. 289, C4, 3:1 rear gear. Mallory duel point. Ported & Polished 65 heads shaved .01 with 351 windsor valves, 11:1 comp, 1.7:1 sled rockers, blue wolverine lumpy cam, modified autolite 4100 Hipo 4 barrel. And to many others to list

2000 Perf Red Mustang GT. 5spd. BBK Underdrive pulleys, Flotech off-road H pipe. Hurst T-Handle

64 1/2 red 6cyl coupe. Auto. project car.

Steve2000SS · 05-08-2001, 01:22 PM

The LS1 isnt the best engine out there.. but its in the top ten.. and the LS1 is the reason any fbodys at all sell.. the reason fbods dont sell well is:

1. hard to live with on daily basis (hard to get in and out of) compared to other cars.

2. long hood makes for a feeling that the car is bigger than it is.

3. bad (non-existent) marketing

You cant fault the engine.. after all its the same one as in the Vette and they have great sales.

As for brakes.. im not sure what the stopping distance is but the rotors are huge ~12inches.. So until I get so stopping distance #'s i will retract the brake statement

------------------
2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff..
320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

dinomite · 05-08-2001, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve2000SS:
The LS1 isnt the best engine out there.. but its in the top ten.. and the LS1 is the reason any fbodys at all sell.. the reason fbods dont sell well is:

1. hard to live with on daily basis (hard to get in and out of) compared to other cars.

2. long hood makes for a feeling that the car is bigger than it is.

I would say that, just from looks, the mustang has a MUCH longer hood, but the camarobird has a MUCH longer dash, cause the camarobird's engine is shoved back up into the car. Just an observation, though I'd think that it'd be harder to work on your engine cause it's so far back there.

fastang · 05-08-2001, 07:12 PM

No one has brought up the rear ends yet. The stangs come with an awesome rear that has put folks in the 10's. The Camaros rear is much smaller and weaker, but I do like the idea of a 6 spd trans. It would let you run steeper gears on the street.

------------------
95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, BBK Longtubes, Flowmaster cat back, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, FMS aluminum driveshaft, weld in subframe connectors

LT1 Z28 · 05-09-2001, 12:11 PM

Yes, both cars have their advantages and disadvantages.

The LS1 is a great motor in the sense of the ammount of power it delivers versus gas mileage and efficiency.

The F-Bodies are far from being perfect and so does the Mustangs.

About the pricing issue:

Mustang GT MSRP Base: $23,230
Camaro Z28 MSRP Base: $23,445

Sources: www.ford.com and www.chevrolet.com

The base Z28 comes with Air, power everything except both seats. It does lack a CD player and T-Tops and other things but it is a well equiped car.

Which brings me to another point, doesn't it piss you off when people say a car is fully loaded when it is not on used car sites? ALL Z's (except 1LE) come with Air and power everything but they list it as fully loaded when it doesn't have T-Tops and CD player. Geez!

Steve2000SS · 05-09-2001, 12:14 PM

So we need the GM 6speed with the Ford rearend??

~~ The engine so far back in the fbods does make them harder to work on.. but i think having the weight so far back behind the front wheels really helps on the handling.. This whole thread started with someone say there is a $15k difference between the fbod and GT.. thats nuts.. my SS(fully loaded, t-tops, PS cooler, etc) was about $28k.. my friend just bought a 2001 Z28 for around $22k (just under invoice).. I think most GT's are going for around 21ish.. right?.. As for Mustangs outselling Fbods we all know that most stangs are sold as V6 and or to non-performance oriented people (john Q public).. a v6 mustang is simply a better everyday transportation car than a v6 camaro.. A Gt is also easier to live with and has cheaper insurance than a Z28.. hence Mustangs outsell fbodies.. plus you have that really cool horse logo

------------------
2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff..
320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

Steve2000SS · 05-09-2001, 12:19 PM

Oh.. and one other thing.. you ford guys need to take the ford vs chevy think a little lighter (not all but quite a few ive come across).. When I go to shows the most hostile people there are usually the newer mustang owners.. I won one time for best late model (against a bunch of stangs) and they actually boo'ed.. talk about bad sportsmanship.. another time I was parking at a cruise (only a few spaces left) near some stangs and a guy actually asked me not to park by them.. so I called "why.. think ill make ya look bad?".. he was silent after that.. I hate the phrase but "cant we all just get along?"

------------------
2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff..
320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

dinomite · 05-09-2001, 03:24 PM

i don't know why anyone would by a v6 camaro or mustang other than so they could go around saying "look at me, i have a mustang/camaro, i'm cool". Thats what really pisses me off. I know that there are a FEW (like, sub 1%) people who buy them cause they want to mod a car but don't want crazy insurance, but almost 100% are just buying it for the image. I don't understand why you would buy ANY sports car without the big engine, b/c you sacrifice interior space, noise, and general comfort because of the fact that its a sports car.

LT1 Z28 · 05-10-2001, 07:01 AM

Dinotmite,

I agree a 100% with you! I feel exaclty the same way. What's the point of owning a sports car that doesn't act like a sports car? It's for the same reason people buy the biggest SUV's they can find, for looks. Look at me! I am a better human being because I have a Mustang/Camaro look alike!

Most people couldn't care less about true performance and that's why the Muscle car is in trouble.

To me performance has nothing to do with cup holders and luggage capacity. It's how fast the thing goes and how easy it is to modify it to go faster.

I like the Ford/Chevy competition but my favorite races are still against yuppy cars. Boxters, Z3's, M3's and 740's. Those are a lot of fun!

95mustanggt · 05-10-2001, 08:11 AM

The rivalry between the Camaro and Mustang is classic, and often vicious one.

I can't imagine what it would have been like back in the late 60's and early 70's when you had all 3 auto makers each making several awesome cars. It would be way more fun.

Although I still think that the competition is comming, there are a lot of new sport compacts (not just imports) that are starting to gain popularity. And while a good portion of them may not be competition on the track or street, they sure will be when it comes to sales figures

That is why I love the V6 mustang, so many guys bash it, but with out it the V8 mustang could be going the same way the F-bodies are, you never know with them bean counters running things these days.

xspeed02 · 05-10-2001, 09:57 AM

Well I can't speak for everyone but my mother has a v6 96 convertible Mustang that she just loves to death. She used to have a 5.0 but when we went to look at newer Mustangs she was going to buy the GT... then she saw this convertible and had to have it. She said she didn't care about owning a V8 anymore. She just wanted to have her cake and eat it to. In this case get great gas mileage (she drives 30 miles to work) and have the nice look of the SN95's. Of course shes 49 years old. So we can't really knock all people that buy the v6's. Just the people that buy the V6's and think they're the **** . By the way, nice thread. Good to see we're all more or less getting along.

------------------
Team Xspeed Leader/Co-Founder
1990 Black Mustang GT 5spd
Current Mods: 2 1/2 Offroad H-Pipe, Borla Cat-Back Exhaust, 91-93 5 Star Pony Wheels, K&N Filter, Free Mods, Pioneer Headunit, MB Quartz Speakers, Orion Xtreme 300 Amp, 2 JL Audio W0's, 130 Amp Alternator, 3.73's, Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter
Future Mods: Engine rebuild with Trickflow Heads, GT-40 Intake, Custom Ground Cam, and 14lb ATI Procharger!
AIM=xspeed02

LT1 Z28 · 05-10-2001, 08:35 PM

Good points 95. You are right about that but it still doesn't change the way I feel about it.

I think there is plenty of cars that make a much better commuter than a Mustang or Camaro.

She still gets a great looking car.

95mustanggt · 05-11-2001, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LT1 Z28:
I think there is plenty of cars that make a much better commuter than a Mustang or Camaro.

I agree LT, but as long as all the V6's are selling we'll always have our V8's

!

(I don't thing GM is going to go very long before returning to a V8 Sports car)

LT1 Z28 · 05-11-2001, 10:41 AM

God, I hope you are right. How about a 4 valve per cylinder electronically controled 350? That would be sweet!

Try Me · 05-11-2001, 11:43 AM

I'm 24, and have eight cylinders under the hood.
Unlike xspeed02's mother, when i'm 49, i hope to be at twelve cylinders

(all due respect to y're mum)

Again, it all boils down to money. The accountants won't approve a muscle car for production with decent ergonomic's. The only good part left is power, and the consumer has to pay through the nose for it. Not many can, that's why they sit for ever on the dealer lot's.

IMO for the new 'Stang,
Seating, ditch the dining room style seats. Maybe next year Ford can use the left over F-Body bucket's?

Shifter, move the shifter about 1 foot back. I'm amazed how they can get away with a shifter that's terribly misplaced as it is. I'm like the hunch-back of notre-dame, shifting his way home.

Power. 300HP wouldn't hurt. A functional hood scoop would be good. Maybe borrow the WS6 idea from the defunct f-body?

Options. How about getting peoples blood pumping (and NOT charge an arm and a leg) for an optional "Drag Package", with special emblems identifying it as such. You know, 4:10 gearing, special exhaust, traction bars w/subframe connectors, Bear brakes.
Oh yeah, and lowered from the factory by 8 inches.

Yup, that sounds like what a muscle car should be

Mercury · 05-11-2001, 12:05 PM

Yep, thats the way they should off them, with Optional drag packs. Unfortunatley though, With tight wad bean counters and a law suit happy Public, I dont think we'll be seeing any of that from the factory.

Just think, if some dumba$$ can sue MC DOnalds for spilling hot coffie on themselves, and having a hot pickle fall out of there burger and burn there chin, just think what would happen to ford if they offered a drag pack.

I personally would sell everything I own to by such a Ford factory beast.

Try Me · 05-11-2001, 12:21 PM

One of my old friends had a hot pickle fall out of his pants and into the lap of a cute girl at the bus stop, nobody get sued

05-07-2001, 11:38 AM	#22
Steve2000SS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 31	I meant that I prefer the way a mustang has a trunk as opposed to how we have a hatch.. So the 4.6 is better than the LS1 because of the hp per liter argument?? You guys that think the 4.6 is so great are the same ones that would be happy as hell if Ford offered a 351.. Now everyone knows why they make more than one kind of car.. some people like Mustang styling better.. some fbody.. hell some even like Azteks ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

05-07-2001, 11:53 AM	#23
Lizard King midnightruns.com Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 584	Steve2000SS, are you sure the brakes are better??? I have never noticed what GM provided on the F-Bodies, but I know that my 2000GT has kick *** brakes. Something like 115ft from 60 - 0MPH... the same as an Integra Type R! About the seats, I totally agree... what the hell where they thinking of??? The headrest is there for apearance only,... if you try and lean your head on it... you will be looking at the ceiling!!! The TA has very supportive seats.

05-07-2001, 11:55 AM	#24
Mercury The Redneck James Bond Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Fayetteville NC Posts: 1,707	Steve. What Mustanger wouldnt be happy if Ford offered an optional 5.7L 351 in the Mustang? As long as it produced sufficeint Horse Power. And I think the 4.6 is great. Just like majority of those who drive LS-1s think the 348 (or is it 346)SBD-2 small block is the best thing since sliced bread. Its NOT. If the cars as good as every GM person says, how come it cant move its self from Dealers showroom floors or lots? I'll give the Camaro one thing, I'd rather drive it than a import. But then I'd rather drive a Trans-Am than the Camaro. ------------------ 64 1/2 "D" code Red Mustang Coupe. 289, C4, 3:1 rear gear. Mallory duel point. Ported & Polished 65 heads shaved .01 with 351 windsor valves, 11:1 comp, 1.7:1 sled rockers, blue wolverine lumpy cam, modified autolite 4100 Hipo 4 barrel. And to many others to list 2000 Perf Red Mustang GT. 5spd. BBK Underdrive pulleys, Flotech off-road H pipe. Hurst T-Handle 64 1/2 red 6cyl coupe. Auto. project car.

05-08-2001, 01:22 PM	#25
Steve2000SS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 31	The LS1 isnt the best engine out there.. but its in the top ten.. and the LS1 is the reason any fbodys at all sell.. the reason fbods dont sell well is: 1. hard to live with on daily basis (hard to get in and out of) compared to other cars. 2. long hood makes for a feeling that the car is bigger than it is. 3. bad (non-existent) marketing You cant fault the engine.. after all its the same one as in the Vette and they have great sales. As for brakes.. im not sure what the stopping distance is but the rotors are huge ~12inches.. So until I get so stopping distance #'s i will retract the brake statement ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

05-08-2001, 07:12 PM	#27
fastang Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: santa ana ca Posts: 1,349	No one has brought up the rear ends yet. The stangs come with an awesome rear that has put folks in the 10's. The Camaros rear is much smaller and weaker, but I do like the idea of a 6 spd trans. It would let you run steeper gears on the street. ------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, BBK Longtubes, Flowmaster cat back, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, FMS aluminum driveshaft, weld in subframe connectors

05-09-2001, 12:11 PM	#28
LT1 Z28 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ottawa, ON, CA Posts: 142	Yes, both cars have their advantages and disadvantages. The LS1 is a great motor in the sense of the ammount of power it delivers versus gas mileage and efficiency. The F-Bodies are far from being perfect and so does the Mustangs. About the pricing issue: Mustang GT MSRP Base: $23,230 Camaro Z28 MSRP Base: $23,445 Sources: www.ford.com and www.chevrolet.com The base Z28 comes with Air, power everything except both seats. It does lack a CD player and T-Tops and other things but it is a well equiped car. Which brings me to another point, doesn't it piss you off when people say a car is fully loaded when it is not on used car sites? ALL Z's (except 1LE) come with Air and power everything but they list it as fully loaded when it doesn't have T-Tops and CD player. Geez!

05-09-2001, 12:14 PM	#29
Steve2000SS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 31	So we need the GM 6speed with the Ford rearend?? ~~ The engine so far back in the fbods does make them harder to work on.. but i think having the weight so far back behind the front wheels really helps on the handling.. This whole thread started with someone say there is a $15k difference between the fbod and GT.. thats nuts.. my SS(fully loaded, t-tops, PS cooler, etc) was about $28k.. my friend just bought a 2001 Z28 for around $22k (just under invoice).. I think most GT's are going for around 21ish.. right?.. As for Mustangs outselling Fbods we all know that most stangs are sold as V6 and or to non-performance oriented people (john Q public).. a v6 mustang is simply a better everyday transportation car than a v6 camaro.. A Gt is also easier to live with and has cheaper insurance than a Z28.. hence Mustangs outsell fbodies.. plus you have that really cool horse logo ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

05-09-2001, 12:19 PM	#30
Steve2000SS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 31	Oh.. and one other thing.. you ford guys need to take the ford vs chevy think a little lighter (not all but quite a few ive come across).. When I go to shows the most hostile people there are usually the newer mustang owners.. I won one time for best late model (against a bunch of stangs) and they actually boo'ed.. talk about bad sportsmanship.. another time I was parking at a cruise (only a few spaces left) near some stangs and a guy actually asked me not to park by them.. so I called "why.. think ill make ya look bad?".. he was silent after that.. I hate the phrase but "cant we all just get along?" ------------------ 2000 M6 SS Camaro.. mostly stock go mods.. lots of show stuff.. 320rwhp & 333rwtq corrected SAE

05-09-2001, 03:24 PM	#31
dinomite The Dude Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,262	i don't know why anyone would by a v6 camaro or mustang other than so they could go around saying "look at me, i have a mustang/camaro, i'm cool". Thats what really pisses me off. I know that there are a FEW (like, sub 1%) people who buy them cause they want to mod a car but don't want crazy insurance, but almost 100% are just buying it for the image. I don't understand why you would buy ANY sports car without the big engine, b/c you sacrifice interior space, noise, and general comfort because of the fact that its a sports car.

05-10-2001, 07:01 AM	#32
LT1 Z28 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ottawa, ON, CA Posts: 142	Dinotmite, I agree a 100% with you! I feel exaclty the same way. What's the point of owning a sports car that doesn't act like a sports car? It's for the same reason people buy the biggest SUV's they can find, for looks. Look at me! I am a better human being because I have a Mustang/Camaro look alike! Most people couldn't care less about true performance and that's why the Muscle car is in trouble. To me performance has nothing to do with cup holders and luggage capacity. It's how fast the thing goes and how easy it is to modify it to go faster. I like the Ford/Chevy competition but my favorite races are still against yuppy cars. Boxters, Z3's, M3's and 740's. Those are a lot of fun!

05-10-2001, 08:11 AM	#33
95mustanggt Registered Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: Kamloops, BC Posts: 2,875	The rivalry between the Camaro and Mustang is classic, and often vicious one. I can't imagine what it would have been like back in the late 60's and early 70's when you had all 3 auto makers each making several awesome cars. It would be way more fun. Although I still think that the competition is comming, there are a lot of new sport compacts (not just imports) that are starting to gain popularity. And while a good portion of them may not be competition on the track or street, they sure will be when it comes to sales figures That is why I love the V6 mustang, so many guys bash it, but with out it the V8 mustang could be going the same way the F-bodies are, you never know with them bean counters running things these days.

05-10-2001, 09:57 AM	#34
xspeed02 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Kettering, Ohio Posts: 119	Well I can't speak for everyone but my mother has a v6 96 convertible Mustang that she just loves to death. She used to have a 5.0 but when we went to look at newer Mustangs she was going to buy the GT... then she saw this convertible and had to have it. She said she didn't care about owning a V8 anymore. She just wanted to have her cake and eat it to. In this case get great gas mileage (she drives 30 miles to work) and have the nice look of the SN95's. Of course shes 49 years old. So we can't really knock all people that buy the v6's. Just the people that buy the V6's and think they're the ** . By the way, nice thread. Good to see we're all more or less getting along. ------------------ Team Xspeed Leader/Co-Founder 1990 Black Mustang GT 5spd Current Mods: 2 1/2 Offroad H-Pipe, Borla Cat-Back Exhaust, 91-93 5 Star Pony Wheels, K&N Filter, Free Mods, Pioneer Headunit, MB Quartz Speakers, Orion Xtreme 300 Amp, 2 JL Audio W0's, 130 Amp Alternator, 3.73's, Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter Future Mods:** Engine rebuild with Trickflow Heads, GT-40 Intake, Custom Ground Cam, and 14lb ATI Procharger! AIM=xspeed02

05-10-2001, 08:35 PM	#35
LT1 Z28 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ottawa, ON, CA Posts: 142	Good points 95. You are right about that but it still doesn't change the way I feel about it. I think there is plenty of cars that make a much better commuter than a Mustang or Camaro. She still gets a great looking car.

05-11-2001, 10:41 AM	#37
LT1 Z28 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ottawa, ON, CA Posts: 142	God, I hope you are right. How about a 4 valve per cylinder electronically controled 350? That would be sweet!

05-11-2001, 11:43 AM	#38
Try Me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 465	I'm 24, and have eight cylinders under the hood. Unlike xspeed02's mother, when i'm 49, i hope to be at twelve cylinders (all due respect to y're mum) Again, it all boils down to money. The accountants won't approve a muscle car for production with decent ergonomic's. The only good part left is power, and the consumer has to pay through the nose for it. Not many can, that's why they sit for ever on the dealer lot's. IMO for the new 'Stang, Seating, ditch the dining room style seats. Maybe next year Ford can use the left over F-Body bucket's? Shifter, move the shifter about 1 foot back. I'm amazed how they can get away with a shifter that's terribly misplaced as it is. I'm like the hunch-back of notre-dame, shifting his way home. Power. 300HP wouldn't hurt. A functional hood scoop would be good. Maybe borrow the WS6 idea from the defunct f-body? Options. How about getting peoples blood pumping (and NOT charge an arm and a leg) for an optional "Drag Package", with special emblems identifying it as such. You know, 4:10 gearing, special exhaust, traction bars w/subframe connectors, Bear brakes. Oh yeah, and lowered from the factory by 8 inches. Yup, that sounds like what a muscle car should be

05-11-2001, 12:05 PM	#39
Mercury The Redneck James Bond Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Fayetteville NC Posts: 1,707	Yep, thats the way they should off them, with Optional drag packs. Unfortunatley though, With tight wad bean counters and a law suit happy Public, I dont think we'll be seeing any of that from the factory. Just think, if some dumba$$ can sue MC DOnalds for spilling hot coffie on themselves, and having a hot pickle fall out of there burger and burn there chin, just think what would happen to ford if they offered a drag pack. I personally would sell everything I own to by such a Ford factory beast.

05-11-2001, 12:21 PM	#40
Try Me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 465	One of my old friends had a hot pickle fall out of his pants and into the lap of a cute girl at the bus stop, nobody get sued