bench race

greystang · 01-05-2002, 05:24 PM

who will win?

88 mustang gt- 2.5 flowmasters, king cobra clutch, bbk cold air induction, bbk underdrive pullies, 373 gears w/traction loc,1.5 eibach lowering springs, 2.5 bbk h-pipe
vs
73 trans am 455/4 speed stock.

lx mike · 01-05-2002, 06:15 PM

one word: Traction! first to get it will walk away while other is spinning.

exgmguy · 01-05-2002, 06:31 PM

It might be close, but those 455 T/A's in the early 70's could run in the 13's stock.

90LxDroptop · 01-06-2002, 03:39 AM

My money is on the trans...sorry man...Like lx mike said...unless u get a picture perfect launch...

I'll be rootin for ya tho. let us know what happens

LX5liter · 01-06-2002, 04:17 PM

Of all the Trans-Ams to race you had to tangle with a big block. Those things have gobs of torque. I belive the 73's were down in power from the earlier models but they still hauled. I hope yo utrash him but I would have to lay my money on the T/A.
Sorry

greystang · 01-07-2002, 08:23 PM

i still havent raced b/c of snow but the trans am has seen much better days. I went for a ride and it fells slow compare to my mustang, plus the kid cant drive. The motor is rusted and stalls out a lot!!

MrWesson22 · 01-08-2002, 06:28 PM

73 t/a stock is nothing. By that time, they were 8.4:1 compression with tiny cams, small carbs, and crappy heads. If he's stock, he's under the 300hp mark with a motor in good condition. And those cars weigh around 3300-3400lbs. You'll have no problem. Now go show him some mustang taillights!

tireburner163 · 01-08-2002, 11:45 PM

MrWesson22 Actully the 1973 T/A was the exception to the rule when it came to muscle cars dieing off. Pontiac really got on the ball and designed some of the best factory cylinder heads ever produced(the Edelbrock design if based of of them). Although the 73 T/A did have lower compression, it was more than capable of keeping up with the muscle cars of a few years before. Also don't forget with comparing the 73 T/A with other muscle cars that post 1972 cars were measured in net HP. Also the the T/A made LOTS of what Pontiac is famous for, torque. A 1969 Boniville with the police package came equiped with a 455 and 2.53 gears(if I remember correctly, I'm about 89% sure on this one). It ran 0-60 in 6.53 seconds, in a 4500 pound car. Now enough about the T/A, on to the actual race.

Wonder land: The T/A is in good condition and can get traction. He will smoke you BAD.

Real world: It sounds like the T/A has seen better days and could use a tune up, so it's not up to par. The T/A will prob. never hook up because A)the 455 makes a tremendus amount of torque, and B)the kid can't drive, he will prob. rev it too high and dump the clutch. If he get the motor runing right(and maybe even if he doesn't) DO NOT run him from a roll, you will be giving up one your big advantages.

302 LX Eric · 01-09-2002, 08:59 AM

So when's the race supposed to happen? I am interested in hearing the results.

Good luck, and remember to ease her out of the hole!

E

Ty'97Cobra · 01-09-2002, 05:17 PM

We used to race a lot of T/A's in high school with my friends '70 Olds Cutlass 442 (455ci).
From what I've seen, those have great mid-range torque. (But they never did have enough to pull the 442!

) I then raced the 442 with my, then new and stock, LX. I got the jump on him but he passed me while I was in second gear

.
Anyway, with gears and exhaust, I say you have a fighting chance and to go for it.
Oh yea, don't forget to post the results.!

Rev · 01-09-2002, 10:46 PM

I ran a 70-73 Grand Prix with a 4 speed and a 455 and flat blew his doors off. He spun horribly off the line and only lost more after losing there. This was a heavy car with a jerk driver. Was fun to win though. This was several years ago and was posted in this forum.

Rev

MrWesson22 · 01-11-2002, 12:23 AM

I'm quite familiar with the t/as since I work at Year One. I'll have to check the numbers while I'm there tomorrow. 73 wasn't as portly as later cars, but don't forget these were still heavy cars. Just one thing to munch on - In 1970, an LS6 chevelle 454 was rated at 450hp, LS5 454 was rated at 425. In 1972, a 454 chevelle was rated at 270hp. Part of the drop was due to net vs gross ratings, but it was still down over 100hp in 2 years. GM's power dropped off even further from 72 to 73.

tireburner163 · 01-11-2002, 03:27 PM

MrWesson22 I belive I have made a error. I previous posts I was refering to the 1973 T/A with the 455 super duty engine. The super duty 455 made 290hp and 395 lb/ft of torque. An automatic version was capable of propelling the T/A down the quarter mile in 13.54 seconds at 104.29 miles per hour as reported in Hot Rod magazine in the June 1973 issue.

On the other hand the 455 in Greystang's friend's T/A is probably the base model 455, which made 250 hp and 370 lb/ft of torque. However it would still be a good race(if the car is in good tune). A 1973 T/A weights around 3400 pounds and a GT should weight in at around 3200 pounds. This is a pretty good weight differance, however the T/A has a 70 more lb/ft of torque. Greystang's car should make around, I would guess, 250 hp. I think I would be a good race.

Unit 5302 · 01-11-2002, 08:31 PM

I fear no Musclecar in stock form. My dad's 427 powered 1963 Vert would have beaten me in the 1/4 due to launches he got with it, but my trap is higher. Don't trust old magazine numbers. If there was ever a bigger game than giving false hp ratings in the musclecar days, it was giving factory tuners to the magazines to test. Almost all of the old musclecars are disappointing in their performance figures when tested today.

Older musclecars are also notorious for wearing out fast. Crappy oils, high compression ratios (the real powercars), and parts quality made for longevity problems.

Unit 5302 · 01-11-2002, 08:33 PM

I'm not saying there aren't any that won't beat me. There definately are, but most don't have what it takes. Those that did, may not now.

MrWesson22 · 01-12-2002, 10:39 AM

I looked at pontiac's numbers when I got to work today. A 73 SD was rated at 310hp, 8.4:1CR. Standard 455 was even 8:1CR and rated at 250hp. These cars usually weighed closer to 3600-3700lbs curb weight. They were more like 3400 dry weight. An old high school friend of mine has a 72. With a glass hood, aluminum heads and intake, no a/c, and a full tank of gas, he weighed 3475. 455s had massive torque, as you listed, but that makes launching a challenge (especially on normal sized street tires), and they have no hp, so they don't pull long at all (no topend). I would throw on a pair of ET streets and laugh at him the whole way.

ricekilla · 01-14-2002, 11:21 PM

crappy oil? high compression ratios? parts quality? gimme a break. my buddy's got a 455 in a 68 firebird that would make you $hit yourself the motors all original too baby! the bottom end and valvetrain in the 400 and 455 are pretty burly box stock. he isnt gonna have as bad of a traction problem as you guys think w/ those stock gears. all that i can say is keep under a 1/8 mile. maybe throw heads, cam, intake to give yourself some top end and dont miss a gear. good luck but my money's on the pontiac.

MrWesson22 · 01-16-2002, 07:41 PM

A 68 with a swapped 455 is a completely different animal than a heavy late second gen with a wheezing smog motor. BTW, it can't be all original - GM bigwigs limited intermediate car cid to a max of 400 until 1970. I have no doubt your friend's car is fast, but do a little homework here. That's like saying a 73 mustang with a 429 is fast bc a 68 cj mustang was.

01-05-2002, 05:24 PM	#1
greystang Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3	bench race who will win? 88 mustang gt- 2.5 flowmasters, king cobra clutch, bbk cold air induction, bbk underdrive pullies, 373 gears w/traction loc,1.5 eibach lowering springs, 2.5 bbk h-pipe vs 73 trans am 455/4 speed stock.

01-05-2002, 06:15 PM	#2
lx mike Undescribable Join Date: Sep 1998 Location: Ft Myers Fla Posts: 1,539	one word: Traction! first to get it will walk away while other is spinning. __________________ Rice Haters Club Member #101

01-06-2002, 03:39 AM	#4
90LxDroptop Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arlington Hts. IL Posts: 315	hmm My money is on the trans...sorry man...Like lx mike said...unless u get a picture perfect launch... I'll be rootin for ya tho. let us know what happens __________________ 90 LX Convertible 5.0 AOD 3.73 Gears, Underdrive Pulleys, TransGo shift kit, A servo, Subframe Connectors, o/r h-pipe, 2 chamber flows, Pony Wheels

01-06-2002, 04:17 PM	#5
LX5liter dude5l Join Date: May 2001 Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Posts: 603	Of all the Trans-Ams to race you had to tangle with a big block. Those things have gobs of torque. I belive the 73's were down in power from the earlier models but they still hauled. I hope yo utrash him but I would have to lay my money on the T/A. Sorry __________________ Good luck! Brad R. 1992 L.X. 5.0 coupe MODS: A few little bolt ons New Best time ...11.60 @ 128 mph @ 2000+ ft altitude. Rice Haters Club member #39 Users rides #2542

01-08-2002, 06:28 PM	#7
MrWesson22 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Dacula, GA Posts: 73	73 t/a stock is nothing. By that time, they were 8.4:1 compression with tiny cams, small carbs, and crappy heads. If he's stock, he's under the 300hp mark with a motor in good condition. And those cars weigh around 3300-3400lbs. You'll have no problem. Now go show him some mustang taillights! __________________ Neal 69 stang 351C/4sp

01-05-2002, 06:31 PM	#3
exgmguy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: Utica, Michigan Posts: 2,631	It might be close, but those 455 T/A's in the early 70's could run in the 13's stock.

01-07-2002, 08:23 PM	#6
greystang Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3	i still havent raced b/c of snow but the trans am has seen much better days. I went for a ride and it fells slow compare to my mustang, plus the kid cant drive. The motor is rusted and stalls out a lot!!

01-08-2002, 11:45 PM	#8
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	MrWesson22 Actully the 1973 T/A was the exception to the rule when it came to muscle cars dieing off. Pontiac really got on the ball and designed some of the best factory cylinder heads ever produced(the Edelbrock design if based of of them). Although the 73 T/A did have lower compression, it was more than capable of keeping up with the muscle cars of a few years before. Also don't forget with comparing the 73 T/A with other muscle cars that post 1972 cars were measured in net HP. Also the the T/A made LOTS of what Pontiac is famous for, torque. A 1969 Boniville with the police package came equiped with a 455 and 2.53 gears(if I remember correctly, I'm about 89% sure on this one). It ran 0-60 in 6.53 seconds, in a 4500 pound car. Now enough about the T/A, on to the actual race. Wonder land: The T/A is in good condition and can get traction. He will smoke you BAD. Real world: It sounds like the T/A has seen better days and could use a tune up, so it's not up to par. The T/A will prob. never hook up because A)the 455 makes a tremendus amount of torque, and B)the kid can't drive, he will prob. rev it too high and dump the clutch. If he get the motor runing right(and maybe even if he doesn't) DO NOT run him from a roll, you will be giving up one your big advantages. __________________ 1987 Buick T-type 1998 HD Electra Elide

01-09-2002, 08:59 AM	#9
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	So when's the race supposed to happen? I am interested in hearing the results. Good luck, and remember to ease her out of the hole! E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

01-09-2002, 05:17 PM	#10
Ty'97Cobra Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: NC Posts: 308	We used to race a lot of T/A's in high school with my friends '70 Olds Cutlass 442 (455ci). From what I've seen, those have great mid-range torque. (But they never did have enough to pull the 442! ) I then raced the 442 with my, then new and stock, LX. I got the jump on him but he passed me while I was in second gear . Anyway, with gears and exhaust, I say you have a fighting chance and to go for it. Oh yea, don't forget to post the results.! __________________ 2003 Cobra Convertible - Dark Shadow Gray #2459 of 5082 Visit my city http://diggstown.myminicity.com/

01-09-2002, 10:46 PM	#11
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	I ran a 70-73 Grand Prix with a 4 speed and a 455 and flat blew his doors off. He spun horribly off the line and only lost more after losing there. This was a heavy car with a jerk driver. Was fun to win though. This was several years ago and was posted in this forum. Rev __________________ '66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe

01-11-2002, 12:23 AM	#12
MrWesson22 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Dacula, GA Posts: 73	I'm quite familiar with the t/as since I work at Year One. I'll have to check the numbers while I'm there tomorrow. 73 wasn't as portly as later cars, but don't forget these were still heavy cars. Just one thing to munch on - In 1970, an LS6 chevelle 454 was rated at 450hp, LS5 454 was rated at 425. In 1972, a 454 chevelle was rated at 270hp. Part of the drop was due to net vs gross ratings, but it was still down over 100hp in 2 years. GM's power dropped off even further from 72 to 73. __________________ Neal 69 stang 351C/4sp

01-11-2002, 03:27 PM	#13
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	MrWesson22 I belive I have made a error. I previous posts I was refering to the 1973 T/A with the 455 super duty engine. The super duty 455 made 290hp and 395 lb/ft of torque. An automatic version was capable of propelling the T/A down the quarter mile in 13.54 seconds at 104.29 miles per hour as reported in Hot Rod magazine in the June 1973 issue. On the other hand the 455 in Greystang's friend's T/A is probably the base model 455, which made 250 hp and 370 lb/ft of torque. However it would still be a good race(if the car is in good tune). A 1973 T/A weights around 3400 pounds and a GT should weight in at around 3200 pounds. This is a pretty good weight differance, however the T/A has a 70 more lb/ft of torque. Greystang's car should make around, I would guess, 250 hp. I think I would be a good race. __________________ 1987 Buick T-type 1998 HD Electra Elide

01-11-2002, 08:31 PM	#14
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I fear no Musclecar in stock form. My dad's 427 powered 1963 Vert would have beaten me in the 1/4 due to launches he got with it, but my trap is higher. Don't trust old magazine numbers. If there was ever a bigger game than giving false hp ratings in the musclecar days, it was giving factory tuners to the magazines to test. Almost all of the old musclecars are disappointing in their performance figures when tested today. Older musclecars are also notorious for wearing out fast. Crappy oils, high compression ratios (the real powercars), and parts quality made for longevity problems.

01-11-2002, 08:33 PM	#15
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I'm not saying there aren't any that won't beat me. There definately are, but most don't have what it takes. Those that did, may not now.

01-12-2002, 10:39 AM	#16
MrWesson22 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Dacula, GA Posts: 73	I looked at pontiac's numbers when I got to work today. A 73 SD was rated at 310hp, 8.4:1CR. Standard 455 was even 8:1CR and rated at 250hp. These cars usually weighed closer to 3600-3700lbs curb weight. They were more like 3400 dry weight. An old high school friend of mine has a 72. With a glass hood, aluminum heads and intake, no a/c, and a full tank of gas, he weighed 3475. 455s had massive torque, as you listed, but that makes launching a challenge (especially on normal sized street tires), and they have no hp, so they don't pull long at all (no topend). I would throw on a pair of ET streets and laugh at him the whole way. __________________ Neal 69 stang 351C/4sp

01-14-2002, 11:21 PM	#17
ricekilla Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: sinful boys SO CAL Posts: 736	crappy oil? high compression ratios? parts quality? gimme a break. my buddy's got a 455 in a 68 firebird that would make you $hit yourself the motors all original too baby! the bottom end and valvetrain in the 400 and 455 are pretty burly box stock. he isnt gonna have as bad of a traction problem as you guys think w/ those stock gears. all that i can say is keep under a 1/8 mile. maybe throw heads, cam, intake to give yourself some top end and dont miss a gear. good luck but my money's on the pontiac. __________________ 89 GT, 3.55's, longtubes, pro chamber, flowpath dumps, mac uppers and lowers+ pinion snubber, underdrive pullies, 70mm t-body, 190 lph penis pump, mildly home ported E7'S by the kid hisself, nitto drag radials..... 13.4 @ 106......... on nitto drag raidials. spinning like gangbusters...... chevy silverado w/ a full works suzuki RM 250 and a full works honda fourtrax 250R (girlfriends bike) in the back, moto x'in it up bro!

01-16-2002, 07:41 PM	#18
MrWesson22 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Dacula, GA Posts: 73	A 68 with a swapped 455 is a completely different animal than a heavy late second gen with a wheezing smog motor. BTW, it can't be all original - GM bigwigs limited intermediate car cid to a max of 400 until 1970. I have no doubt your friend's car is fast, but do a little homework here. That's like saying a 73 mustang with a 429 is fast bc a 68 cj mustang was. __________________ Neal 69 stang 351C/4sp

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