|
stang vs turbo Si
well my buddy picks me up from work and we go out to lunch..he has his freinds'00 Si with a turbo he put in the day b4..the thing is still not in tune yet and we were only running 10#'s but this things is freakin out..also we are running right off the downpipe so you can really here the turbo spool up and it sounds awsome
so we found a healthy notchback to race and even though we never both got a clean and even start we would rell him in everytime...the kid in the notch slows down and asks how many pounds were running and we tell him 8# cuz he lied and said his car was stock at first then he said he has a blower on it but the belt is off..but i think i bought headers off the kid b4 so i know him and his stangs arnt stock at all..so end of story we couldnt consider it a kill cuz of the traffic but we were faster than it ------------------ 1987 black notch(ex 4 banger) DSS 306 w/ main support...Elderbrock 6028 heads..gt-40 intake..24# injectors...70 mm tb..77 pro-m...accel 300+..mac full legnth..tremec w/ pro5oh...full MAC exhaust,off road h-pipe,long tubes, catback...ron davis radiator..subframes, control arms...CFDF II..o yea holley FPR sucks..dont buy one.. |
Tune that civic up and race it against your stang. Then tell us how fast that civic is. (You better not lose http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/biggrin.gif)
------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, off road pipes, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, weld in subframe connectors |
I ran a Civic with a turbo, etc.. and walked him pretty hard. All cars run different though!
------------------ 1988 Mustang GT 12.0 @ 121 on radials S-trim Vortech sitting in a box! |
My buddies turbo Si (99) with 8psi ran a 14.7-14.8@100-101 thing can't hook to save its life. The car is still in the process of being tuned also
|
sedan man I feel sorry for your friend. After putting so much work of installing a turbo and it only nocking about a second. I think once it's tuned it'll run way better. My friends civic hatchback ran a 12.7 he's running a little of the giggle bottle 70 shot and has a japanese engine dont know anything else he as in there. Not much a rice person
|
Quote:
|
Putting on a huge turbo and running with the stock stangs.. hehe Hey EXGMGUY, your cars not exactly stock, I hope you're mopping up civics http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif
------------------ 87 GT Full exhaust, K&N, KB Subs, BBK STB, homeade dumps... 87 Taurus New York Winters Bite! |
100-101mph in a 2500lb Civic is good for mid 13's w/ traction. He doesn't need that thing tuned, just some Nitto DR's on a 15" rim. I know the Civic's also get some bad wheel hop and I have heard by putting on some good engine and transmision mounts it helps alot (not sure if its true, just what I've heard.)
|
He already put the motormounts on it and it stopped the wheel hop now the thing just burn the sh*t out of the tires. He is currently looking at getting some DR's and is hoping to try a few more tricks and get him into the 13's
|
Just curious - Exactly how long does a stock transaxel and half shafts last on these front drive turbo things, when launching with some rpm's on sticky tires??
I can hear the sound of snapping metal all the back here in CT. ------------------ 1965 K code coupe - numbers matching - restoration ongoing. 1987 LX notch, stock heads and intake, 3.55's and typical bolt on's 13.89@100.25 |
The stock axles can easily take up to 400hp but after that, you are on borrowed time unless you get aftermarket axles. A Viper or a Cobra R on sticky tires can break axles stock. Wouldn't you rather have done work to your car and have to worry about broken axles than to have a new, factory car you just bought and be afraid to run it on slicks from fear your factory axles will snap?
|
Quote:
------------------ White 1995 Mustang GT Dynomax Cat-Back, Offroad H-pipe, K&N Filters w/o Air Silencer My 1995 Mustang GT |
Quote:
|
A Civic's transaxel, half shafts and cv joints can handle 400hp? Obviously are much stronger then they look.
------------------ 1965 K code coupe - numbers matching - restoration ongoing. 1987 LX notch, stock heads and intake, 3.55's and typical bolt on's 13.89@100.25 |
Quote:
|
That wasn't the point. $130 is still more than $0, plus labor if you cannot do it yourself.
Maybe if the vehicle dynamics of front wheel drive were better, the tires would stick a lot harder and get the same weight transfer as a rearwheel drive car, but that simply isn't the case. A 300hp Fwd car and a 300hp Rwd car are going to put far different loads on the axles. The Rwd drive car will have much better weight transfer and therefore a higher amount of stress on the axles! Engineering is great! http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/biggrin.gif ------------------ 1991 GT, AOD, Moroso Cold Air, 3.73s, March pulleys, 3-chamber(the left one fell off-NO time+No Money=College), FMS c-springs, and KYBs |
Yeah but ENGINEERING is supposed to Hondas strongpoint! lol
|
Yup, there is a limit, by the Laws of Physics, as to how fast a FWD car can go. I believe that the world record for FWD is 8.7 seconds, so don't let those little rice-bitches tell you other wise. There are civics and others that have made faster passes, but they change the cars from FWD to RWD and often put the engine in the back too.....seems like a BIG waste of money to me, when you can do a LOT less work on American car, and go a LOT faster for a LOT less $$$.
|
Actually its Physics that makes that happen(weight transfer), but I said Engineering is great because that is where I learned the basic Dynamics of Front and Rear wheel drive cars.
------------------ 1991 GT, AOD, Moroso Cold Air, 3.73s, March pulleys, 3-chamber(the left one fell off-NO time+No Money=College), FMS c-springs, and KYBs |
Dinomite beat me to responding to Fastang's comment. I have to learn how to type faster. http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif
|
Hey dinomite, how much money does it take to make a an american car go faster than 8.7 and what kind of mods? I imagine a blower with lots of boost, a built engine and fuel system, a full race suspension, some form of weight reduction and in most cases slicks(a very few cars can claim 9's or better on "street tires" aka drag radials). I don't know how this discussion moved to full race cars. I don't see why people seem to have gotten offended by the fact that Cobra R's and Vipers have a tendency to break axles when you add sticky tires with stock horsepower.
FWD vehicles were never designed with drag racing in mind, as you all are quick to point out(I also agree), but some of you need to give credit where credit is due. Unibody Honda's are on the verge of breaking into the 8's, and I am sure that tube frame cars will break into the 7's within the next two years. People have been racing RWD V8's for decades, but not until the late 80's has there been a surge for FWD imports. The industry is growing a lot faster than ever expected and the records keep falling. There are imports out there(not very many) that can put on slicks, run 10's at the strip, then put on street tires and go home. I know the number of domestics that can do this is a lot higher, but there is a lot more time and experience behind those vehicles and how to make power with them. There are a few FWD imports generating 4 digit power numbers which was thought to be impossible, and a number of single digit FWD cars. It is sad to see that quite a few people on this site still have the idea that there is no such thing as a fast import. Everytime I point out something, I get posts by several individuals trying to "prove me wrong" or dismiss my post. I also continue to see bashing posts in other threads that I haven't responded to. I know that the domestic crowd and the import crowd will never see completely eye to eye, but I would hope that there would be a lot more respect for each other. I am a moderator at an import website which I will not name, and I am sickened by the many import owners who talk down on domestics and I don't let people bash domestics. I think that all car enthusiasts whether driving a RWD V8 or a FWD I4 have a lot more in common than they are willing to admit. I probably am going to get a lot of flames for this post from individuals that are closed minded and not willing to accept FWD cars as *gasp* competition and don't want to accept the fact that there are some out there that can beat them. |
I'm not saying its impossible by any means, and yes, with further weight reduction in those tiny things, they will do better. My point is just that these people always tell me that imports/FWDs can be fast too, which is true, but even with the huge industry backing, its horribly more expensive than making a fast American.
|
Ok dynamite, I offer you another question instead; How much would it cost to get a 5.0 into the 11's including estimated cost of vehicle?
|
Hey inferno, good points. The only thing i can really say is i find the rumble of an american V8 and the feel of thrust from a RWD car alot more satisfying than the wrapped out lawnmower sound and torquesteer of most imports. I can respect anything that hauls *** , but i just can't get into the whole import trend because most of the people who build up those cars also add several wings to the back, weird contorted body kits, stickers up the yin-yang and big 'ol fart cans. I saw a honda civic in hot rod magazine that ran i think 12's that just plain looked good (tastefully done) but i don't see many tastefully done hondas because of the whole "scene". When you get into track drag racing it's amazing what people can do with those cars, but me personally i don't care for them that much, and it sounds like many of the people on this site may feel the same. Just something to think about.
|
1988 5.0 LX Hatch. $2500. A little worn out. Assuming standard everyday mods have been made 90% of the time they are. 2.5" cat back, cold air, bumped timing, shifter, underdrives, clutch adjuster, 190 fuel pump.
Rebuild kit: $420 block machining: $150 Twisted Wedge heads: $900 E-303 cam: $160 1.6:1 RR: $200 TFS Intake: $400 AFPR: $100 65mm T/B: $180 cold air: $free 190lph pump: $free underdrives: $free 1 5/8" longtubes: $240 2.5" H for LT: $130 2.5" cat back: $free Pro 5.0: $free clutch adj: $free 4.10 gears: $400 installed subframes: $150 control arms: $300 clutch kit: $250 4cly springs: $20 NOS 100 shot: $400 Estimated ET (since you'd need a rollcage at the strip) mid/high 11's. Total cost: $6900. Reliable, streetable, 5.0. No stroker, no supercharger. Probably 11's w/o spray. Now, inferno I expect you can pick a FWD car (not replace the motor with anything other than stock IE: no GSR motors into a CRX otherwise we can change our **** to a 427 BB in a $800 4banger, and cut massive cost) and come somewhere close to that figure? Good luck. |
Hey Unit, add in the "free" mods cost too and then I will do mine. Assume this car was owned by a little old lady so no previous mods. By the way, if it is that easy and cheap to get into the 11's, then why are most guys on this site 13 and 14 second cars?
|
Premium for pristine 88 5.0 owned by old lady who has never abused it. $1500.
Subtract engine rebuild, since it no longer needs it. -$570. Pristine 5.0 surcharge $930 Pro 5.0 $200 Catback $200 Coldair $140 Pullies $80 S.Adjust$90 190 LPH $90 I still don't see why you want me to add the price of parts that will almost certainly be found on these cars. It would be very possible to find a car with the rest of the full exhaust for the same price or a couple hundred more. Finding an 88 5.0 in pristine condition like you have described would most likely cost more and be nearly impossible to find in bone stock condition (there are many on this board who have searched, you can ask), but if you want a perfect 5.0, then I want a perfect mint condition ricer counterpart priced. You asked what it would cost to get a 5.0 into the 11's including purchasing the car. My estimate is accurate, since it's more than likely what is going to be found. Still, I'll mold it around your desires. The total is now $8630 for a mint condition never abused reliable 11 second machine. Remember, I don't wanna see some ragged out '87 CRX with a GSR motor. You can do this on the totally up and up. I want a pristine car using it's stock motor as a base for modification. The import must be reliable and you must be able to drive it away from the track on the streets. Otherwise you'll faint at the combo I'll throw your way. I'm sure I can get an 11 sec stang all together for $4000 total. As far as why are most stangers in the 13's and 14's, it's for the same reason most ricers are in the 15's and 16's. $$. That's still hugely expensive. Adding $4500 in mods to create a reliable 11 second machine is a lot for most 5.0 owners. Mismatched combo's, poor tuning, running heavy, lack of driving skill, and lack of suspension mods are what keeps the 5.0's in the 13-14 range. A well driven 88 5.0 with just freebies and maybe a set of underdrives can run 14.0, Mr 5.0 has seen one run 13.80 with freebies and optional 3.08's off the floor with NO mods (I wish I cold drive like that). Getting 2 seconds out of them can be accomplished with a good combo. If you don't beleive the combo is capable of that, please feel free to look at 88workcar's combo, from which most of the mods are based on. He's running real low 12's w/o spray (12.1 on slicks 12.3 on radial), I've made it a little more aggressive to compensate for the loss of slicks so that the T-5 could be kept. If the N20 was used, you can absolutely guarantee 11's. |
Inferno, Heres your written invitation.
Please bring all of your friends with Hondas down to Carlsbad on March 24th. Turbos and all. I dont care if you have to trailer them, just bring them, turbos and all. Your's truly...Jesse. ------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, off road pipes, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, weld in subframe connectors |
Quote:
------------------ '86 GT. Gears & Flows |
I don't normally defend inferno, but he has a couple semi-valid points.
The Mustang 5.0 is much faster than what it normally gets credit for. The coined phrase 5.slow has been used for a while. I'd be willing to bet it came from not to pick on any one, but the MAF 5.0 AOD cars that were bone stock, driven bad, and out of tune. I know of an 1995 GT manual convert that runs around here. He's downright dumb. He's got 1 5/8 headers, and straight pipes, a 65mm T/B, 3.73 gears, and a couple other minor mods. He wonders hopelessly why he doesn't get traction (can't drive), and why his ET's are in the high 14's low 15's. (mismatched) Tons of Stangers out there just don't do any research on what will really work well together, and how to make good ET. The same with the ricers. Also worth noting is the decreased fuel economy with my listed combo. With 2.02" intake valves, a cam, and 4.10's, I'd be suprised if a person would get much better than 20mpg on the hiway at 55 instead of 70mph where the stocker gets the best. The real benefit of the Mustang is to take it from 11's to 10's isn't much more expensive really. Ditch the N20, add a stroker and a supercharger, for another $3500 you can run 10's all day and still be streetable. To go to 9's is a hell of a lot more. No longer can the 5.0 HO block be used, but it also requires very very good stuff inside the motor. Even so, you can choose 9's, 8's, 7's, or 6's. Depending on how much $$ you have you can get whatever you want. |
Okay, here is my 11 second daily driven car:
Used 90 5 speed LS(non-vtec) Integra: 2500 Built bottom end(forged pistons, shot-peened factory rods, and block guard): 1500 installed Drag Gen 2 Turbo kit: 2000 ClutchMaster Stage 3 Clutch: 250 Apex Electric boost controller: 400 310 CC fuel injectors: 95 each Apex Super AFR (fuel controller): 400 Drop in high flow fuel pump: 250 MSD Full ignition set-up: 500 Eibach Drag spring set: 300 3" custom exhaust and high flow cat: 500 Nitto NT-450 tires: 54 each Total: 9196 500 dollars more for 11's. That isn't really that big of a difference now is it? This combo could run faster with DR or slicks(of course). |
Inferno, your forgetting about the cyl head and the intake setup. And your not going to run 11's in a Honda with the stock computer setup are you? What about your transmission? Will the stocker with a clutch last with 11 second passes? I think your going to need around 20 grand to do it right.
------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, 355's K&N, off road pipes, pulleys, msd coil, 9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, weld in subframe connectors |
I wouldn't be talking too big about the tranny, I'm relying on the stock T-5 to hold 11's. With the shifter and as long as you're not running slicks, it should, but damn, I'm pushing it.
As far as the lack of intake, yeah, I see that along with no head mods, but I don't know how much they can do. Remember too, my combo is based on a super nice older 5.0, hehe, cause inferno wanted a granny driven 5.0. I'm pretty sure my original estimate would be much more accurate at $6900, although asking a beaten T-5 to hold 11's is probably a bit much. |
Add another 400 bucks to my price for valves. That is all else that is needed. And yes that is with a stock computer. The Apex AFR addresses the fuel needs and the MSD ignition provides the spark and timing needed. And about the tranny, it is strong enough to hold 9 second passes or faster(no B-series trannies have made it to the 8's.....yet). The AEM drag Civic is using a stock Prelude transmission and it is running 8's. So 900 more than your setup....I have another build-up that would be a little cheaper, but it still isn't cheaper than the 11 sec stang. Hey Unit, you think those stock tires will make an 11 second pass?? That is why I included tires in my 11 second "cheap" build-up.
|
Hey, Fastang, you just made my price cheaper by 300 bucks. My set-up is only 600 more expensive. I just remembered about the computer that I want to get....The Apex Power FC. It sells for about 800 bucks and that means I can take off the MSD ignition, the Super AFR, and the Boost controller and add spark plugs and 8.5mm wire for 200. I don't know why I didn't think about that since I am planning on getting one http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...rd/redface.gif
|
Heard it referenced on PH, but what is a block guard exactly?
|
Two questions: How does a computor upgrade negate the need for the MSD ignition? Does it unleash some hidden capability in the stock setup? I am also still having a hard time believing that the stock FWD drive train (especially on a 10+ year old car), can withstand repeated hard launches without spitting parts all over the place.
------------------ 1965 K code coupe - numbers matching - restoration ongoing. 1987 LX notch, stock heads and intake, 3.55's and typical bolt on's 13.89@100.25 |
I don't know of any 5.0 that you could get with the original Goodyear Eagle 225/60 VR15's. They only last about 20xxx miles on average.
No problems with quality stock sized radials, you can go 245 easy. I haven't included a tune up budget, so I've left out those prices. That stuff is routine maintanence. If your Integra needs the DR's then it needs them. The Stang doesn't (although it would benefit). Hehehe, now my personal budget build. 1987 LX Hatch, 4 banger. $800 Medium riser 427 dual quad. free http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif Borg warner T-10. free http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif 8.8" rear $200 3.73's $200 everything else, what maybe $2k? Hehe, total $3200? |
Hey Unit, see if you can find another 427 for free - if so I'll take it. It just may be worth butchering up the ol' 65 K code to fit it in
|
If it is so easy and so cheap to get a 4-banger Integra into the 11's, then why do nearly all them at the track run 15's & 16's?
I have been to a test & tune night at my local track, where a 100+ car field of imports were present (the track didn't advertise to the rest of us that it was an import night! http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/frown.gif ) Anyways, my buddy and I wittnessed countless 16 second passes - fart pipes, stickers, wings, stereos, TVs and all! There was a Prelude that was gutted, had a rollcage, slicks, and a real "pretty" engine that couldn't even go lower than 13.5's. Of course all the rice boys were drooling over his Prelude like it was some Pro-5.0 car. Inferno - this is not meant as a flame, but more of a reality check. Maybe it's different on the west coast, but I am just a spectator of the idiotic riceboy phenomenon that has swept over my part of the country - and it is really hard to take many of these guys seriously. Moreover, their wild claims of 12 second civic's with a shift nob and a couple G-reddy stickers makes all realistic car (both import and domestic) enthusiasts absolutely sick. Sorry to ramble/rant, but if you can get an Integra/Civic/whatever, to run reliable 11's on a budget and drive to and from the track, then more power to you and I respect you and your car. E ------------------ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe -37,800 miles 13.17 @ 106.14 mph w/ 2.138 60' Pro-Charger D-1SC on the way!!! |
Jaydee: The Power FC is a fully programable computer. You can adjust the timing throughout the RPM band and it also can provide multiple sparks. Like I said, there are several stock trannies or close to stock in the 9's. The only mod to them is that they have welded diffs or full drag spools.
97snakedriver: B-series motors are open deck motors and a block guard is a brace put at the top of the block to protect the top of the cylinder. 302 LX Eric: Your question was already answered further up(along with my question as to why most stangs are running 13's or 14's). There are a lot of ricers out there, but more and more people are starting to do things to there car. While the majority will always be posers with no engine work, 8ft wings and stickers all over the place, the number of fast Honda's is growing. Unit: Those tires aren't drag radials. Do you really think that you could get good drag radials for 54 bucks each without a hook-up? Also, if I were to build a similar car, the price would be lower because I get discounts at some local places. Hey, check out this build up that a friend of mine was considering(too bad he didn't do it): 88 CRX HF - 200(i saw it advertised with a blown motor last week....not that it matters anyway http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...board/wink.gif) Prelude SH engine w/tranny - FREE Drag turbo kit(my price) - 1500 3" Custom exhaust(my price) - 150 Eibach Drag Springs(my price) - 200 Slicks and rims to put them on(for track use only) - 300 Total - 2350 I know a lot of people probably will call bs on this set-up, but with ~270 whp in a 1800 pound car with slicks, you will run 11's. |
Where do you get that super motor for free inferno?
As soon as I can get a house so I have a place to put it my dad is giving me the 427 and the T-10. I'm thinking I'll actually fit it into a '69. http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif Jaydee I'll keep my eyes open for another freebie, but I don't think it's gonna happen. On a side note if you hunt around, you can probably get one for like $4k. Let's see if I can beat inferno's new price. It aint pretty but here goes. 1973 Pinto. $200 88Tcoupe 2.3L intercooled turbo $300 T-5 from above $200 rebuild turbo $400 chip $150 8.8" from above $200 increase boost to 24lbs NOS 100 shot $400 LX 10 holes for the back $50 MT Slicks $300 That's $2200. It's ugly, it's got 4 cyl and a turbo, but it's domestic and according to an article in MM&FF a couple years ago, it runs 11's. Hmmm... I wonder how much a flame retardant suit runs? |
You might be right on the 11sec CRX. However, slightly off topic it is still only a econobox car, like a suped up Pinto. The 11sec mustang will have way more torque, more fun to drive, sound better, look better and hold its value better.
Further more its a MUSTANG. nuf said. ------------------ 306ci, TFS stage 3 heads. port/pol edlebrock performer intake. 77mm mass air, 70mm TB, crane 2030 cam, Mac full length headers, flowmasters 3.73 gears and more. |
Ok here we go
Chevette=$200 500cu in caddy motor=$200 Motor rebuild kit=$250 Tranny TH400 rebuit=400 custom D/S=$200 Slicks+Rims=$300 cage=$400 Duct tape to hold it together=$20 TOTAL=$1970 Easy 11's if the rearend holds up. |
Unit, it helps when you know people who work at salvage yards. http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...board/wink.gif
mmike, you are right, the Mustang will have more torque, and more horsepower, but it won't be any faster. You want to know why? It is called HP to weight ratio. The CRX won't need to have as much HP or torque as the Mustang because of it's light weight. With the right tires, the CRX will take the Mustang off the line as well. It would also get better gas mileage. It doesn't matter what kind of car it is, or how much money was put into it....all that matters is who crosses the finish line first. |
Hey sedanman, I believe Car Craft did this exact project a few years back - forgot the details but the result was cheap, fast and scary - I'll have to check the archives
------------------ 1965 K code coupe - numbers matching - restoration ongoing. 1987 LX notch, stock heads and intake, 3.55's and typical bolt on's 13.89@100.25 |
Yeah JayDee they did a build up like that I think about a year ago they said it was under $2,000 and I believe it ran high 11's. But it was not much of a car thats for sure but hey it's 11's.
|
well if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas!
------------------ '86 GT. Gears & Flows |
Hmm.. I wonder what would happen if we were throw in the additional stipulation that this car also has to be able to handle. IE, no slicks (although sticky tires), no drag suspensions, more power, and a certain degree of balance. Of course the cost is going to go up quite a bit, but I wonder who has the advantage now...
|
i built my last mustang for a total output of 3500 dollars. And i ran 12.5's at 110. You want 11's? alright,250 for a set of slicks, 350 for a nitrous kit. turn a little screw for more fuel, and we're in the 11's. okay, so i can only do it once, cause they'll kick me off the track for no cage. ok, 300 bucks for the cage.we're still talking 4400 dollars. I drove this car every day to and from work, until This past november. I only stopped cause I picked up a different body, and swapped all my stuff into that body. Now I drive that everyday to and from work, and it feels faster than the last one. Hey, If my new chassis is as fast as it feels, I may only need to add slicks to my combo to get 11's. and i'm sorry, i've priced turbo kits for honda's for a friend. I haven't seen one for less than 3000. Either you have a really good dealer, or they're hot.
------------------ 12.54 @ 110.90 1.62 60' best with old car, will let you know once i finish the transfer to the new to me car I have pictures now, and here are the specs |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:32 AM. |