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If a little is good, more is better, and too much is just enough.....what's too much?
Unfortunately, no one ask one really good question. Where do you want you HP&TQ peak to be at? Off idle, mid-range, or high end?
Off idle, I'd go with the Saleen unit. They're somewhat reliable, and they make good power for what they are, but if you're spending the money anyway, skip on the Saleen and go with a Whipple. Mid-range, Whipplecharger. Makes real good usable power throughout the whole RPM range, but peak somewhere near 4500. The only problem I have with the "roots" blowers is that the car can get really hard to control at the lower RPM range. Throttle response is immediate and at times way too much. In all it's probably the best overall unit for the street. High end, Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger are all basically the same thing in a different package. they lack somewhat on the bottom end of the RPM range, and can come on too strong with increased psi. With a base unit, you shouldn't see over 9-11psi. With the right intake, the base centerfugal blower will have enough mid-range to hang with the "roots" and as you climb in the RPM'syou'll leave the "roots" gasping for air. The beauty of these units is that the higher you go in the RPMs the more boost you get, in generic terms. Oh, and don't be fooled by the kit price. That does not include installation. If I had known that I would have gone with a turbo set-up myself. I have a Vortech S-trim with Aftercooler and I see 14psi@6000, and the car is still making power all the way to 6500 when I run out of knuts. I am currently rebuilding the motor to withstand going to 7500rpms every once in a while. I still don't know if I'll take it there, but just in case...... Also, no matter what you go with, for peace of mind and added security, make sure that you go intercooled, or aftercooled. You'll thank yourself later. Ok, I think I've ran my mouth long enough. Hope this helps out some. Later. |
I didn't know we had so many turbo people on here. I'm reading some of the posts and someone keeps bring in the different headers for a turbo as being the extra expense. Who buys a supercharger and doesn't add headers and an h-pipe to take full advantage of it. Quit using that has an excuse for why turbos are more expensive. Never had a supercharged mustang, but I would be willing to bet that by the time you factory in a complete turbo system against a supercharger, headers, and h-pipe the costs for both would be pretty close.
I know you don't have to buy those things and don't go comparing the cheapest supercharger and parts you can find so that you can say a supercharger is less expensive. Just trying to make a point, no flames intended. Also, on my little T04, I've got full boost by 2200 rpm. How does that compare with a roots style blower? If a roots comes in any faster, I bet you couldn't tell it by the seat of your pants. |
ProCharger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
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S-Trim $3200 8-14 psi +/- 350-450hp Procharger $3100 14 psi +/- 450 hp (includes Intercooler) Ignition $500 Headers $200 H-pipe $120 $4020 Here is the kit for a Turbo TDK $3995 +/- 350hp (Includes headers and X-Pipe and Intercooler) Ignition $500 $4495 IMO that isn't a very good competetive price, for the amount of horsepower differences. TDK also has a 500 hp kit for $4500 but then we are talking a rebuild, and that isn't what I am talking about.....but I am bias I guess :D I do see your point though |
Hey Dustin, that's a good cost breakdown...should also add that turbos typically cost more to install than superchargers.
With that said, I LIKE turbos, but after applying the $$$/hp ratio, the benefits of the turbo kit weren't enough to justify the incremental cost...that's just me. |
How about the Cartech Sleeper Kit!
Horsepower levels from 400 hp to 750 hp. The CarTech Street Sleeper Kit includes the following: Garrett T04 Turbo 4 into 1 Turbo Header 3" Downpipe Crossover Tube Y-Pipe Air Filter Fuel Management Unit Hi-pressure Booster Pump Choice of Low or Front Mounted Intercooler Racing Wastegate with Ultra Hi-Temp Diaphragm Cartech Boost Gauge Gauge Mount $3875.00 + Ignition $500 $4375 potentially making a lot more power. You are not shredding belts ethier! Also no crank stress! Up the boost with the push of a button! |
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BTW, not to really start an argument but 8PSI on a turbo kit will kick the **** out of 8PSI from a SCharger! |
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The Cartech kit may produce up to 700 hp, but the Procharcher P1SC is claimed to make up to 800 hp and is also smog legal (I don't believe the Cartech is). This a hollow argument because you aren't going to make this kind of power without a really expensive long block. Let's not forget the difference in installation cost. Yeah, it's more difficult to change the boost level with a blower. Sure, blowers cause crank stress. But in fairness, turbos have challenges of their own. For example, underhood heat -- isn't that why thermal wrapping has to be done either on the turbo and/or plug wires? What about oil coking caused by the heat of the turbo? My point is that we just can't be pointing out the shortcomings of one type of power adder without fairly comparing the shortcomings of the other. As I said, I LIKE turbos (My wife has a Volvo T-5), but I just didn't want to spend the additional $$$ on the turbo kit. Based on the cost info you provided, the Cartech is likely to exceed $5k with installation. My 5.0 kit cost $4k with upgrades and installation, and is smog legal. Both superchargers and turbos can make a LOT of power...that should not even be a point of contention. Ultimately, I believe it depends on where you want your power, what stress you are willing to put on the engine, and what your personal preference is. |
When it comes down to the nitty gritty, both forms of forced induction cost about the same. The turbo kits have a higher price because they are a kit, and include much more than the turbo(s), intercooler, headers. These other parts of the kit vary between companies. Usually a complete fuel system setup is included: meaning new pump, injectors etc. Usually an bigger MAF meter, plug wires, calibrated comp chip etc. I don't know of many superchargers that give you half of that stuff in their kit.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, NOTHING IS A FREE LUNCH. I admit that superchargers are less hassle installing, and are easier to deal with. You want to step up performance, just change the pulley. I like turbos because the boost is only there when I want it, I can run the stock, or small camshaft which is good for the street. Also, at a light the other person has no idea I have a pair of turbos under the hood, whereas usually you can hear the whine of a supercharger. There are many other reasons, but I will cut this list short for now. Everyone is entitled to their own choice. BTW just to add some fuel to the fire: There are more turbocharged race cars than supercharged; and i'm not talking just Ford or domestic. Think about that one;) |
The reason I brought up the turbo is because on the 4.6, it makes a ton of power. I had a V2 S-trim and both @ 12 psi wouldn't be a race. I made more with less than 6 psi than any centrifugal blower would have made at 8 psi & some @ 12 psi. Full boost comes in at about 3,000 rpms sooner and the torque amount & curve is tons better. Sure a P-1SC was good for 800 hp, but you will be spinning the crap out of it and dealing with belt slip and it will have a short life.
The TDC kit is well thoughtout and is made with the best parts available. I haven't run into any of the problems mentioned above with the turbo system after 4 months and much track use. I tossed my blower because everyone with a 4.6 has one and I wasn't getting anywhere fast. With the turbo system, I blew past all of my friends with blowers and stock engines. If you are dead set on getting a blower, I would get a D-1SC because you will have much more room to grow. I don't mind dealing with the any small problems that might occur because the benefits have been unreal. The car has been faster than most people would believe and is dead silent at idle and cruising. |
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As soon as everythings installed, I'm headed to the dyno and for some custom tuning. Then will see what a little race gas and 15 lbs or so feels like. |
This has been a good debate. I think that we have all come to find that we have our own preferances. I like blowers, some of you like Turbos which is perfectly fine, and I am not going to think you all are idiots for likeing T's over S's. I would love o have a Turbo car if I had the money I would. Each has its pro's and con's.
I have had my motor apart many times and have been more than a fair share of modding motors, I have respect for both....blowers are just easier to maintain, which is what I initally stated. 5.0's have awesome blower kits as well as Turbo kits and each will provide you with more than enough power for a dd car. Lets just leave it at that. Turboguys you are cool in my book, I hope I didn't come across otherwise. |
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Ok....think about this. Why are the world's fastest cars Supercharged? Meaning Top Fuel? ;) |
Because turbos are not allowed. The worlds quuickest and fastest mustangs are turbocharged Pro-5.0 & Modular. If you get a chance, read the penalties that turbos cars have to deal with so it would be fair. If they took all of the rules and penalties off of the turbo cars, it would be a slaughter. It's all politics. Fastest car in Pro-5.0, Outlaw and fastest modular car are turbo cars. Look at how many people change from blowers every season to turbo setups costing them 25-40K. Not one person has gone from a turbo setup to a blower setup in Pro-5.0. I think all of these power adders have their place.
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One year it's the Turbo's, the next it's the year of the Supercharger.
ProCharger has recently developed a new huge blower - the D-3X or something like that. It is supposed to produce ungodly amounts of power. If you look at what the Pro 5.0 racers have done each year it's really simple - they switch to whatever is the faster of the two. Last year everyone and their brother were running the ProCharger's and this year it was the Big Thumper Turbo. Get what you like based on the facts above. For me, hands down, it's gotta be an ATI ProCharger! :D Take it easy, E |
The procharger is called the F-4SC. It is the companies big daddy. This thing is ungodly. It has propelled 3 Pro 5.0 racers into the high sixes. It cranks out somewhere between 30-35 psi. It is definately the king of the superchargers. One thing, it doesn't hold the top spot. That is reserved for Halprin/Grebeck's turbocharged 6.77@208 monster:p
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OMG I just finished reading the newest edition of 5.0 magazine. I read an article about Talevski Pande and his new Pro 5.0 car. Here is what caught my eye: His turbocharged small block made more than 2000 rwhp on a dyno, which apparently he broke the dyno also. He won't say the actual #, but said over 2000! He is expecting to run 6.50-second e.t's at more than 220 mph. The car looks SWEET and makes me jealous. I wish him the best of luck, and look forward to the stangs digging deeper into the 6 second zone.
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