Airbags suck
 

My friend Patrick was driving down 84 a few days ago and hit a puddle of water on the middle of the highway, he hydroplaned to the left and scuffed the center divider. He did almost have complete control as he hit but the airbag went off (damn Hondas) and blew hid hands off the wheel. The wheel turned and he did a 360 and slammed into the opposite guard rail then into the center divider again. He was OK but his new car is completly totaled. He said he would of been able to recover after he intailly hit, and there would have been maybe $500 worth of damage to the fender. Now his car is completley totaled and he has burns on his arms from the airbag.

Who thinks airbags should not be on cars, and who thinks they are a wonderful saftey device?

Option?
 

I think they should be an option at additional cost. That way those who want them can have them.

Rev

I feel airbags are one of the single largest contributors to increasing vehicle and insurance costs.

Manufacturers are constantly crash testing their vehicles, and you'd think if they were worthless, the airbag systems would have been drummed out of cars long ago.

I've seen many schools of thought on how well airbags truely perform. From the NHTSA claiming airbags save like 50,000 lives per second in my home town which has a population of 20,000, to the other end of the spectrum stating airbags have saved maybe 1 life since inception of use.

The latter group was very convincing with their use of math. Side impact airbags are worthless in my opinion. Think about this. If you're hit at 20mph from the side, you've already hit the door before the airbag can fully deploy. 20mph equals about 360" per sec. Or, right around .015 seconds before you hit the door. So, the lovely airbag actually delivers a brutal punch to your body. As you fling into the door, you're met by a rapidly expanding airbag to blast you back the other direction (this is what would be a knockout punch in boxing). I've seen the crash tests affirming the scenerio. Watch how the dummies are flinged back towards the center of the vehicle. I've also seen the crash testing at 35mph showing the airbag deploying in time to "save" the crash dummy before he hits the steering wheel. What happens when the speed is increased to 50mph, and the new safer airbag designs are used? Do you get a crash dummy headbutting a rapidly expanding airbag?

Personally, I've seen some very significant accidents where people without airbags have walked away, and I'm not inclined to believe airbags are the true safety devices they're made out to be.

I would rather not have them in my car, and have it cost $3k less. Interesting, but that would also get rid of the need to track airbag data, and the data logging devices which are definately controversial.

i am going to dis arm my air bag's when i wrecked in jan they never deployed, im glad because my seat belt held me in place, the guy at the body shop told me if both, had deployed it would have destroyed my dash.:rolleyes: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It does more than destroy your dash, Marty. Dual airbag deployment creates a giant mess all over the place in the car, takes out the windshield, the dash, the steering wheel cover, and the airbag units themselves, which normally cost well over $1000 each to replace.

Yep. A 5mph bump into something could give you an additional $3k of unnecessary damage real quick.

yeah kell i think i lucked out, because i hit drivers side headlight area first, then it did the total front end nascar slide down the guard rail's, scared the f---- out of me , i think i was doing about 50 mph. :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

I guess it depends on what happens when they deploy. I've heard of people being saved by them and being killed by them (basically, them coming back and hitting a person in the face and causing major trauma to the head or something).

I agree. A person should have the choice of not wanting them in their car or not when they buy it. Having them only adds to the cost and complexity of the car. And if they deploy on a small collission, then it costs big bucks to get them fixed (personally, I'd just cut them out).

Daniel.

I think they should fill airbags with Jiffy Pop popcorn. Gives me something to snack on waiting for EMS to arrive.

Just terrible
 

Your just terrible Mustang II 460. I just hope you have some red wine in your squad car to go along with that pop corn.

Rev

My friend also had cuts all over his face. The passenger side airbag blew the windshield out on his civic and he had pieces of glass in his face from it.

About a year ago a was driving a 97' F-150 regular cab truck. I was driving to a parts store that was just 5 miles away. I have a bad habbit of not wearing my seatbelt especially when I am not going very far.

I was cruising at 55 mph and noticed a new Tahoe coming towards me in the other lane. I seen that he is slowing down and he turned on his left blinker. Right as I was about to go by him he squeels the tires and pulls right out in front of me. I T-boned the Tahoe and didnt even have a chance to hit the breaks.
I nailed a 4 door Tahoe at 55mph, a split second before impact I thought I am dead. When we hit I felt my body flying towards the dash, I was met half way by an airbag that cushioned the blow dramatically. I had a few burns from the air bag and a bloody nose. I jumped out of the truck to see if the other guy was ok he was out cold. Me and him both walked away with minor injuries.

To give you an idea of the violence of the impact all 4 of the Tahoes tires were knocked of the rims. If you cross your arms across your chest that is how the frame rails looks that were sticking out 4 feet in front of the truck.

I know I should of been wearing my seat belt but I wasnt. There is no doubt in my mind that the airbag saved my life.

JMO.

My daughter in law just recently struck the back end of a women who just stopped for no reason in front of her, she was at a very low speed thank goodness. Man her air bag tore her up. It burned her right arm, and breast really bad, cracked the windshield, she was hurting for quite some time. Her seat belt would have been just fine for this accident. Instead she got all messed up from the air bag. Personally I don't like them.They drive a small truck but still it did much more damage then the wreck itself. My vote is get rid of them....I want to live.Odie:cool:

Not that I would ever be brutal, but whatever dude :rolleyes: Yeah, in this particular case you were being a complete dumbass so the airbag saved you. You're definately correct about it keeping you alive in this incident as you were not wearing your safety belt. So I guess I should have to pay an additional $3000 for my car so I can buy airbags for people who don't feel like buckling up?

I'll tell you about the worst accident I have ever been in. 95 Impala SS vs 88 Mustang LX 4 banger. The Impala hit the front corner of the Mustang travelling at a combined speed of maybe 50mph. The Impala's engine was pushed back, and the Mustang's entire front end was compacted, pushing the K-member back, and jambing the driveshaft into the tailshaft. All 4 people in the Mustang, and the 3 in the Impala walked away.

I guess I just assumed most people were smart enough to fasten the safety belt as they start the car up.

Why do they have both airbags and safety belts in cars?? If your wearing your belt then why have something thats going to smack you in the face.

The concept is to reduce neck/whiplash type injuries, and slow a persons rapid deceleration in an accident. The seat belt is very unforgiving. It's like bungee jumping with a rope. The airbag is supposed to be more like a bungee cord, but it just doesn't have time to perform that function IMHO.

I thought I was reading on a traffic safety website(school paper) that the airbag is supposed to be aimed more towards the chest than the head. Things like seat placement affect them too, you're supposed to sit as far away from them as possible. Shorter people have to sit closer and get hit harder, hopefully such variables are adressed in future models. Dark 5.0, you do know that airbags are designed to be used in conjunction with seatbelts, not a replacement. A lot of the injuries from airbags are for that exact reason. You're really lucky things played out as they did.

The reason you're supposed to sit as far away as possible is for the reason I described above. Say you're in a combined 50mph collison head on. Your body will be travelling towards the steering wheel at right around 900" per sec. A person my height 6'0" should be seated about 24" from the steering wheel. The seat belt should lock within maybe 12" of forward movement, but your head will continue forward after that point. What results is approximately .013 seconds before the seat belt restrains you, and about .027 seconds before you are hurtled into the steering wheel should you not be wearing a seatbelt. More than likely, you're going to meet the airbag. You flinging forward, and the airbag flinging back at you.

In school we learned not to sit close, heres why.

When your too close, the bag [hits you], snaping your neck like a X-mas turkey.

Sit far and [you hit] the bag.

LxMustangRacer is right about seat placement, belt and bag used together. Size also.

Manufacturers 1st generation is a "Fits All" thats ok for average size people, but what about my fat butt. Ah, smart bag.

We find alot of people with just the bag, end up in the pedals on front impact. Ofcourse some dont, varitables. Least your not swallowing your teeth.

You cant tell me that you have never driven somewhere and forgot to buckle up. You are too immature to debate with out calling someone names.

I was simply sharing the only experience with airbags that I have.

"Trust me, You dont have the ability to be brutal with me...."

Dumb @ss,

You didn't forget. You just plain admitted you have a habit of not using it on short trips. Also, before the car is even started most times I have my seat belt on. It's like wearing pants without a belt. Something just doesn't feel right.

You "simply sharing your experience" also contained a personal opinion on the matter. One which was skewed because you didn't feel like putting on a seat belt for short trip. I will say again, I have no desire to pay an additional 2-3k for my car to protect people who are being stupid.

By the way. You were being indisputably stupid by not wearing one. You're seriously off base by telling me I'm just like you and I don't wear my seat belt sometimes. I fail to see how I'm the dumbass here? You're the one who went driving down the highway with no seat belt, rammed some other truck, and nearly killed yourself in the process.

Oh, and just for the record, I have yet to directly insult you. I called your actions stupid, and implied anybody who wasn't using their seatbelt should be acting smarter.

You directly called me a "dumb@ss." So who's doin the name calling here anyway? If the name calling is a mark of immaturity, would that not indicate you're the one with the problem? Not to mention I'm not debating you because you don't have any leg to stand on should such an event occur. I'm just discrediting your "experience" as unworthy of debate because of the circumstances surrounding it.

...
 

Well it's a matter of preference IMO. A neighbor of mine has broken his neck twice on his seatbelt in two different accidents...(don't ask me how or why and I'm not going to debate it because I don't know the circumstance of either accident), I just think that circumstantually anything can happen in an auto accident and personally I think one should have the option to either have an airbag or not.

I am personally unhappy with airbags, I think they are more a death trap than a safety device, especially for someone of my height, being a meager 5'2" that's no leg. I'd rather just let the belt do it's job than have to worry about having my neck broken because it's impossible for me to get far enuf away from the damned airbag.

I was not entering into a debate I was sharing my experience. If ever you do have a moment of imperfection and not wear your seatbelt the airbag can save your life.

Since my wreck I always wear my seatbelt.

Later,

I think that airbags can be useful, but as stated should be an OPTION for new cars. Sort of how like it should be an OPTION not a law, for people over 18 to wear a seat belt. If someone puts themself at risk by not wearing a seatbelt, let them deal with the consequences. Same thing with an airbag. If you don't want one, deal with the consequences of not having one, if there are any. I personally don't like airbags and am glad as hell that my 89 doesn't have one. One of the main reasons is the mess that they make and all the damage to the vehicle they do. They're great for cars with comprehensive insurance, but if get in a fender bender and the airbag totals the car, that's kind of ridiculous. There should at least be an option on all vehicles to be able to turn off any airbag you want. This is just my opinion though.

I for one am glad my Jeep had airbags in it when I totalled it 2 years ago. I only ended up with a broken arm and torn wrist cartilage instead of being dead...
C-ya, Melisa

Talk about being stupid, read your own comments. Airbags are and always have been designed to be used in conjuction with seat belts, not as a replacement for them.

They were not put into cars to "protect people who are being stupid", they were put into cars to protect people period.

I rarely ever wear my seatbelt (just a old habit, not suggesting its a good idea) and I have been in several accidents, a couple very serious, and have always walked away. There are plenty of stories from state troopers that have seen seat belts kill people, so you never know what can happen in a particular acident involving specific circumstances.

Dark5.0- you might think that airbag saved your life, and it very well might have, but you also might have been ok without it, however hard that is to believe. I should be dead from an accident I had without seatbelt and before airbags were in use, and Im still hear, so you never know for sure. I was ejected through the t-tops (with the t-tops installed) in a vehicle and lived

After my wreck I was just glad to be alive. I agree that air bags and seatbelts both should be options and not law.

Even If I would have lived without the air bag slamming into a windshield @50mph cant do much for your appearance.;)

Later,

Let me know when you're going to start disagreeing with me. My comment was directed at the experience, and opinion added, constituting a weak attempt at debate by Dark 5.0. He apparently felt he would have died had he not had an airbag system. I am inclined to agree with his theory in that case, but I still don't see the reason I should pay more for my car because people like Dark 5.0 think airbags are worthwhile due to the concept they have the capability of possibly saving those who don't feel like wearing a seatbelt.

Since it would seem we're in agreement, are you also calling yourself stupid?

For those who don't want to wear seatbelts, fine by me. I propose a new insurance plan. You can disclose that information to the insurance company, and pay a highly elevated premium, giving people like me a nice discount. Should a person be in an accident where they're not wearing a seatbelt after claiming they do for better insurance rates, the insurance company can limit it's liability, and that person can be forced to pay out of pocket for medical expenses most likely related to that choice.

1) i like airbags, they make me feel more secure..........they have come a long way in the last 7 or so years with angles and speeds to make them safer and better..........my gti has airbags all over the place, about 8 of them LOL..........part of why i bought it

2) i honestly have never forgotten to wear my seatbelt.......do it every single time before i put my car in gear.........my parents raised me that way, then it was reinforced when my best friend died in an accident that shoulda been minor, but he was ejected from the car

3)not really the case, when several people have an accident and get hurt seriously for not wearing your seatbelt, it is reflected in EVERYONE's health care and insurance costs............plus with it being a law, if you get a ticket, it may help make the roads i drive on a bit smoother in the future........my local community needs the revenue

4) airbags are an option.......your 86 or whatever mustang doesn't have them does it?............just not an option with new cars

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Unit 5302
but I still don't see the reason I should pay more for my car because people like Dark 5.0 think airbags are worthwhile due to the concept they have the capability of possibly saving those who don't feel like wearing a seatbelt.[/QUOTE

Your not paying more for your car because Dark 5.0 happens to like air bags. Im not so sure that airbags have ever caused the price of cars to go up...I didnt notice a large increase in auto prices when airbags became standard equipment.

If you want to blame somebody, blame the government beauracies that force auto makers to make these things standard equipment, not Dark 5.0. This country is overly "safty concious" to the point of being ridiculous. You can really see it in some work environments.

I dont follow you, sorry. Where do we appear to be in agreement, and how does this relate to calling myself stupid? I said you made a stupid comment, and I havent changed my opinion on that issue.

Insurance companies are some of the biggest crooks out there. Thats why we all pay high premiums.
I would think its safe to say that most people do wear seat belts these days. Rarely do I ever ride in a car with somebody who doesnt wear one other than myself. In fact, I cant remenber the last time I saw somebody not wear a seat belt other than my parents, which is wear I got the bad habit of not using one.

this is not cbring, you didn't read my post very well as i said it was just my opinion plus you and your '91 Jetta can drive on all the smooth roads you want, but getting ticket money from people not wearing seat belts won't go into road maintainance because all road maintainance is voted on seperately than law enforcement issues and are different issues than the law enforcement budget, which is where the ticket money really goes. As far as insurance goes the reason cost is so high is because of insurance fraud. There is A TON more insurance inflation from insurance fraud than there is from some dumbass going through the windshield in a 50 mph accident. I think personal responsibility is more important than a state trooper's patrol car budget, but that's just me. That's what i'm willing to sacrifice. I wear my seat belt, but i want the RIGHT to not wear it and risk my own safety. I must be crazy though because i always thought a persons rights were more important that someone's budget anyway.

WOW, I can't believe the thread I started would cuase so much of a heated debate. I got a good look at my friends car today. It is completely totaled, Those Hondas sure are tin cans. The whole car is twisted like a prezel. He still has nasty burns from the airbags on his arms.

Mach 1, airbag systems cost thousands of dollars per car. Do you think that money just pops out of cracks in the Ford proving ground pavement every time they install an airbag? Cost of fully optioned 1987 GT $13,000. Cost of fully optioned 2002 GT $24,000. While you may think 24k = 13k, I don't. Even when you consider inflation, you only get $21,000 at a 3.5% per year inflation rate. With Ford being far more efficient than ever, and technology used in cars getting older and cheaper, it would seem to me something must be adding to the price. Ford makes very little money on selling a Mustang. The profit is in financing for the car. The enhanced ABS braking systems, and airbag systems are largely part of the equation no doubt.

So I guess we're not in agreement. I think it's stupid for me to have to pay for an expensive technology (airbags) based on the idea it may save a person who's decided not to buckle up for whatever reason. It's also stupid for me to have to pay for an expensive technology which has a history of killing people or causing serious injuries, and has a spotty reputation for doing good at best. I don't feel airbags have saved virtually anybody who wouldn't have been saved by wearing a seat belt. The government mandates this kind of junk based on all the people who are safety psycho. If nobody wanted airbags, chances are we wouldn't have airbags.

While I would agree insurance premiums on single people under the age of 25, especially males, is extremely profitable, most insurance is not. Tell me this 84LX89GT, have you ever seen how much money gets paid out on a minor injury accident claim? Even the slightest claims generally have a payout well in excess of a $1000. Many accidents exceed people's coverage. Minimum coverage is often 25/50, or 25,000 property/50,000 personal injury. An accident is likley to generate MRI's, CAT scan's, and X-Rays. Perhaps you're an expert on the fee's associated with such procedures? I'll give you a hint. Both the MRI and the CAT scans will generally have a charged amount in excess of a $1000. A simple pain in the neck can generate $10,000 of payout in a heartbeat. Damage a couple cars slightly and you're likely to have $5000 in damage there. Couple people complain of minor aches and pains, there's a visit to the doctor who refers them to get some scans. Now you're talking another $5k when medical bills are taken care of. Insurance fraud? It's certainly built into your rate. As is underinsured/uninsured motorist protection. Take a look at the premium that goes towards that part of your insurance. Maybe you'd like to compare the hospital bill of a person in a 40mph head on who was wearing their seatbelt vs a person who was not? Well, the person who wasn't is likely dead. That's a pretty expensive bill when the lawsuit is figured in. I've worked for several insurance companies. CNA, RSKCo, Prudential Financial, United Health Group, etc. Of all the insurance types, I know of only one that I would still consider dirty and underhanded. That's medical/health insurance. Many insurance companies no longer even want to write auto policies. You'd think such a killer industry would be attracting companies, not pushing them away.

Insurance companies are under strict regulations all over the place. There is generally a compliance department, legal department, product design department, actuaries, processors, case managers, agents, management, and executives. Lemme tell you, most people in the insurance business don't make squat. Insurance companies are in business to make money, just like the rest of businesses. If they can offer a product at a lower rate and still make a solid return, they'll do it to get the business.

Honestly, I get hosed with car insurance. Most people do not. One of the people I work with has a new Mazda Tribute, and his wife drives a newer Toyota Corolla. Not extremely expensive cars by any means. They pay about $120/mo for car insurance in the Minneapolis metro. So per year, they pay right around $1500 for auto insurance. They are covered if somebody steals their car(s), if somebody vandalizes them, if they get into an accident etc. They have coverge for their own assets in excess of $30,000, along with person injury coverage probably in the $200,000 area, and probably an additional $70,000 of property damage coverage between the 2 policies. Course, that's only $300,000 of protection for $1500 a year, including administration, and business expenses. Yeah, they're probably getting hosed. :rolleyes:

Precisely why there shouldn't be any mandatory motorcycle helmet laws.

Speaking of which, that's the avenue you may be facing if they get rid of airbags. According to the NHTSA, approximately 50% of all auto fatalities are due to head injuries. The same fools that believe all motorcyclists should have to wear a helmet can't be that far behind in mandating helmets for cars. Well, unless they are just preaching out of the side of their necks, and just like picking on motorcycle riders, but I can't imaging anyone would be like that.

:)

Good thread.

Take care,
~Chris

another example of how me not wearing my seatbelt might effect you............

lets say we are both driving on the same road. lets say that i'm not wearing my seatbelt......lets say that you make a mistake, or your car fails you or something.......causing me to hit you.......accident is clearly your fault......with a seatbelt, i might hurt my back and bruise my chest, maybe crack a rib or something........but, i'm not wearing my seatbelt, so i fly into my steering column at a funny angle and get paralyzed........my expenses exceed your coverage by a few hundred thousand dollars.......you face a lawsuit and either settle or lose.........you face a 6 figure debt that may have been prevented or minimized if i wasn't negligent

sounds fair, eh?

It was/is my opinion that the airbag saved my life, and I shared my experience with airbags. In no way did I attempt to debate you.

If I were to enter into a debate I would be on your side. I dont think any kind of restraint devices. seatbelts, airbags or helmets should be mandatory.

I agree with you and thought Unit was off base with his accusations, take it for whatever its worth.

Airbags arent going anywhere, so we might as well get used to them.

this is not cbring
 

You have a good point....and you're probably right. But i still don't like the fact that i HAVE to wear a seatbelt, and also i don't like i'm probably wrong and just being stubborn :p

You guys bring up good points, although like i said even if someone else is at fault and you're not wearing your seatbelt, the person not wearing the seatbelt should face the music. There is no way insurance can decipher how much someone would get in that situation because they put themself in danger at someone else's fault, so i suppose a seatbelt law does make sense. However this still doesn't mean i have to like it :D

Good debate, you guys have refreshing opinions!

Re: Airbags suck
 

There's a conspiracy here to ressurect threads older than 5 years. I can't add anything now more than I added then because I quit paying attention to the topic.

Seems like I knew a lot of big words back then...

Re: Airbags suck
 

Amen, brother...with plenty of salt and butter