Corrupt Government?
 

Well, Frankly its nearing November 2nd so I want to do my civic duty..lol and let you guys look at a very interesting site. Lots of congressmen and women are up for reelection soon and this could change your minds.
Everyone always says, "The Bush administration spends to much,." or "The Clinton Administration spent too much." Just to bridge the gap, the president doesnt have the power to spend, all spending is done by congress. Congress says what and when. Bush has pretty much now power next to congress. This site will really show you just how corrupt the government is.

Example: Some states get funding from the government for shrimping. Those states include Georgia, South and North Carolina, California and Arizona...

Now ask yourself which one doesnt belong. I know im not the smartest person in the world... but last time I checked Arizona was landlocked...lol

How the H*ll did that happen?

Nevertheless, Give this cite a looksy and see what you think

www.cagw.org

lol, our government has been crap since the 1800's, hell the i.r.s is illeagal, it was a temporary fix, to fund the yankee invasion of the south, but it's still there, dont get me wrong, i am an american, served my military for 12 years , am 30% disabled because of it, but i signed the paper's, no regret's, but these day's i feel less a part of the u.s. jmo, dont mean nothing, everyone in d.c. is a crook, me, my 5 little acre's in tn are the c.s.a, yes i am a rebel, i succeded from the union, marty raises star's & bar's. lol. :D :D :D :D, dont get me wrong i dont hate ANYONE.

Yeah everyone in congress is a crook. I just wish there were some way to wipe it out and start over. Most people look at congress and are dissapointed, however they never jump on their representatives a$$. Like did you guys know that Nasa gets more funding than education in this country. So much for Leave no child behind. And Millions of americans have no health insurance... but if you are elected to congress, you only have to serve one term and your health care is guarenteed for life. Washington just is full of scam artists. They have this country so screwed up I dont think it will ever be fixed.

Governement gets more and more like a reality show everyday.

The corrupt congress
 

It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress. - Mark Twain 1897

The United States congress has been called 'corrupt' for well over 100 years but yet America remains the envy of the world in it's freedoms and economic strength built on those very freedoms. In short: America is the envy of the world....even with a 'corrupt' congress.

While no one will deny that there is gigantic waste and some fraud in government expendures, often manipulated by members of congress, there is also some hypocrisy in the charge. Citizens of every state at least partially judge congressmen and senators effectiveness by how much they can take out of the federal budget for their state. From highway funds to school funds to welfare programs and on and on, there is a lot of demand around the country for 'our share' (of the federal budget 'pie') followed by the reminder that: 'we pay taxes, too'. Unfortunately, many states rely on that same 'federal funding' to keep programs afloat every year. Some of them are even worthy.

While I totally concur that there is disgusting amounts of 'pork' in every federal budget (read: taxpayers money spent on crap) I also know that most states want and look forward to their share of the federal budget money for various state 'needs' (and just as many 'wants'). So, before we point fingers at the waste in government and talk about a 'corrupt' congress - which is a legitimate complaint - we should also stop to check and see how much of the wasted money ends up in our own states...and find out why. It might prove interesting.

While we're at it, let's ask the elderly to stop moaning about their Medicare benefits and college kids to stop complaining about the size of the Pell grants and the drudgery of filling out the FASFA forms. The state school systems that depend on federal money to fill out their budgets and those folks who choose to live in Florida should never complain again about a 'corrupt' congress that gives their state tens of millions of taxpayer dollars to help repair and rebuild homes and businesses destroyed by hurricanes. After all, if you live in 'Hurricane Alley' why should taxpayers in Arizona or New Hampshire have to pay for your looses? Same with those 'subsidized' farmers who get paid NOT to grow crops or who get federal money to make up for what they lose when their crops fail. Is there some federal building in your town with a congressman or senators name on it? Guess who paid for it? Right: you did. On and on it goes.

A 'corrupt' U.S. congress? You bet. Just as in 1897 when author and humorist Mark Twain (Sam Clemens) wrote his comment (above) about the U.S. congress. It was funny then because it had the ring of truth, just as it does today. However, U.S. taxpayers have done at least part of the corrupting and we need to remember that when we point fingers and whine about 'government waste'.

I don't know, but I usually have upmost respect for most blue collar workers. Congress has baby soft hands if you know what I mean. :D
Our government is too damn corrupt. Who envy's us besides third world countries? Personally I think our counrty is going to shit. Greedy insurance companies, politicians and lawyers are never out of a job. When was the last time you seen one of these people stand in the unemployment line? I truly believe that it is only going to get worse in this country no matter which aszhole is president, Bush or Kerry. The Patriot Act is a great example.

James:cool:

Cynicism without contemplation
 

Originally posted by srv1

Quote:

I don't know, but I usually have upmost respect for most blue collar workers. Congress has baby soft hands if you know what I mean. :D

"Blue collar workers" are the backbone of the nation and I've been one (construction and auto shop worker as well as a stockboy and factory worker among other jobs) but executives are as necessary as manual workers and the congress is no execption. The blue collar worker often thinks the executives do nothing - and some don't - but there are also some lazy and unproductive blue-collar workers in every industry. The executives and managers in most business are as necessary as the guy who unloads the truck or runs the drill press.

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Our government is too damn corrupt. Who envy's us besides third world countries?

The rest of the world.

From our wildly successful computer industry (as just one example of American superiority) to our capitalist, democratic form of government the United States exceeds most of the world in per capita income and productivity. Our standard of living is far beyond that of europe and our freedom is unknown is most other nations, including the socialist nations of europe.

Quote:

Personally I think our counrty is going to shit. Greedy insurance companies, politicians and lawyers are never out of a job. When was the last time you seen one of these people stand in the unemployment line? I truly believe that it is only going to get worse in this country no matter which aszhole is president, Bush or Kerry. The Patriot Act is a great example.

I disagree with this kind of mindless cynicism that proclaims the greatest nation on earth is 'going to shit'. Far from it. As for the Patriot Act: please explain how and why, in detail, citing at least two concrete examples, the Patriot Act is a 'great example' of how my county is 'going to shit'.

As for the presidential candidates: Bush is far superior and has proven himself a leader we need in the next four years. John Kerry is simply a political opportunist who can't take a stand on anything without changing his mind five minutes later. His senate voting record is totally anti-military and his liberal views on most issues are incompatible with the kind of leader America nees, now, in an age of terrorism.

well, Taxpayers dont help to rebuilt houses destoyed by hurricanes... your insurance does that, I know that for a fact because I live in GA. all insurance around in this area carries it. All "Relief Aid" does is helps keep shelters open, get bussinesses up and running again and so on. You want to talk about government waist lets talk about people in the north who just decide to take unemployment each winter because its "to Cold" to work. I know some guys on this site may even do it. There may be nothing wrong with it to them, but all those ppl really add up. you dont see people in the south laying out just because it gets hot in the summer... thats just stupid. Anyway, I dont want to start a fight. The fact is, is most people waste government money every day and they dont know it. Like when you throw that trash out the window on your way to work. Nevertheless, as far as government wastes goes, Alaska ranked number one in the most "porky" state. I am a college student and I dont whine about having to fill out a fafsa. But I also dont get a pell grant. you only recieve than when your parents make under 23,000 a year. Most of us arent lucky enough to get federal assistance. And as far as our computer "Sucess" i guess it would be nice if everything wasnt OUTSOURCED! lets face it ... the computer you are on now fed chinese and indian familes well tonight. And ppl want to complain their are no jobs... STOP OUTSOURCING and you'll get your dam* job. But no, everyone is soooo worried about saving a dollar. *An Interesting fact*: John Kerry says, If he is elected, he will stop all outsourcing, and for those companies who already have, would pay a higher tax. Well isnt it interesting that his own wife, has recently packed up Heinz and moved it to mexico and other second world countries.
Something to think about!

Personally, I don't think very many people have a real idea of what corruption really exists in the world. This place (USA) is one of the lesser, IMO. We are truly blessed to live here, and God, damn the liberals for thinking....no wait, they can't do that....believing... that the French should be making military decisions for us, amongst all their other crazed ideologies. Amen.

America is not the envy of the world. Im tired of all the propaganda that makes people believe this.

This country has a very wasteful and corrupt govt, along with many other problems. I wish there was an easy answer to every problem, but theres not.

Its obvious the anti-american feelings around the world are growing and I dont see an end.

I have visited many countries and have talked to many people and didnt find any of them to envy america. In fact a lot of canadiens were turned off by the fact I was american and wouldnt even talk to me. I have been all over europe and parts of the middle east and didnt notice any american envy, not from the common people anyway.

I see govt. assisted healthcare and free education in many european countries, why not here? They have a good standard of living. More people in apartments, but they are nice places. The construction quality of the new houses in this country is a freaking joke. They slap em together in 2 weeks with no pride.

Bottom line, america has a lot of resources in the tax money that could be put to better use. How can we make that happen when the govt. is corrupt, and even if someone goes into politics with good intentions, they will turn corrupt. Its a hard temtation to resist when its in front of you and easy to get away with. You cant change the system, so you fall into place , just like the rest who got theirs...

Why cant we cut back on the congressmans insane healthcare and retirement plans? How can we get the power to stop them? You cant expect any congressman to cut his own perks, right?

Lifes not fair, not here and probably not anywhere.

On highway 85, at Gila Bend Arizona is one of the largest shrimp farms in the country.
Go figure

Howdy :)

I feel prompted to say that every government in every country suffers some degree of either corruption or stupidity. It is inevitable. No group of people can be expected to be perfect 100% of the time.

Mach 1, you may be correct in your view that the rest of the world does not 'envy' America, but there is still alot of admiration for certain aspects of it. ;)

America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

Originally posted by Mach 1

Quote:

America is not the envy of the world. Im tired of all the propaganda that makes people believe this.

I disagree. I'm tired of Americans who have the benefit of being born in the freest nation on earth with the greatest opportunities available go around whining and complaining about that nation. Yes, it's their constitutional right to do so but it simply shows how ungrateful and self-ceneterd some Amnericans are. I find it ironic that so many immigrants truly appreciate our country and it's benefits while native-born Americans can't stop finding faults to whine about and then compare America to socialist hellholes and dictatorships as if they were an improvement. The disconnect from reality is staggering.

Quote:

This country has a very wasteful and corrupt govt, along with many other problems. I wish there was an easy answer to every problem, but theres not. Its obvious the anti-american feelings around the world are growing and I dont see an end.

The U.S. government (congress) may be corrupt and wasteful but not to the extent that the United States citizens are deprived or oppressed. The U.S. has the highest standard of living in the world, bar none. That is no small accomplishment and is clearly a part of the 'resentment' you assume the U.S. generates from other nations - most of them either mired in ruineous socialist economies or ruled by dictators who live in splendor while their people eat dirt...then the dictators blame America for their people's poverty.

Quote:

I have visited many countries and have talked to many people and didnt find any of them to envy america. In fact a lot of canadiens were turned off by the fact I was american and wouldnt even talk to me. I have been all over europe and parts of the middle east and didnt notice any american envy, not from the common people anyway.

You can find America-haters and America-lovers anywhere. Europe, especially, has both and many of the 'America-haters' have never set foot on American soil and depend on a anti-American media for their views of our nation. Their anti-Americanism is to be expected. Canada has also become mired in socialist politics and has a large hate-American contingent that control a good portion of the CBC and the print media. Hating America has become a political sport that will fade as terrorism overtakes even the socialist countries that now assume they are exempt from trouble from the Islamofascists. See: France and Russia.

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I see govt. assisted healthcare and free education in many european countries, why not here? They have a good standard of living. More people in apartments, but they are nice places. The construction quality of the new houses in this country is a freaking joke. They slap em together in 2 weeks with no pride.

You also see people who pay obscene taxes and many don't bother to work at all because it's easier to be on 'the dole' and live a bit cheaper but not have to work. Socialist economies permit this but the unemployment rate is 2 and 3 times ours and the standard of living is below ours...far below in most cases. In America, 70% of the adults own their own homes. Probably twice the rate as in europe, at least.

U.S. Construction quality may sometimes be spotty and depends on many factors, including the contractor and the diligence of the person paying for the job. Still, modern methods of construction, including some pre-fabrication, has made putting up a house much easier and faster, especially in a 'development' where the building plans don't vary much. Your complaints are somewhat invalid on this point.

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Bottom line, america has a lot of resources in the tax money that could be put to better use. How can we make that happen when the govt. is corrupt, and even if someone goes into politics with good intentions, they will turn corrupt. Its a hard temtation to resist when its in front of you and easy to get away with. You cant change the system, so you fall into place , just like the rest who got theirs... Why cant we cut back on the congressmans insane healthcare and retirement plans? How can we get the power to stop them? You cant expect any congressman to cut his own perks, right?

It's very difficult to rein in a corrupt congress, as I stipulated in an earlier post. Stop voting for the same person every two or six years and not allow some politicians a lifetime job in congress because they happen to be a memeber of the party that supposedly dominates your town or state. We still have a democracy where we can all vote. Sadly, only about 50% of the eligible voters do so in any given election, allowing politicians to stay in office forever by counting on your apathy. So far, it's worked for them, hasn't it? Vote for a politician who runs against the long-term incumbent (he or she has had their chance) and swears to only serve three terms (two, if a senator). Hold them to it when the alloted time is up and stop voting for the politician who promises the most out of the federal budget 'pie'. We have serious issues to deal with today and 'bringing home the bacon' for a specific congressional district shouldn't be the foremost qualification for a politician but, unfortunately, too many citizens have made it just that.

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Lifes not fair, not here and probably not anywhere.

Perhaps, but it's a lot freer and more comfortable in the U.S.A. than anywhere else on earth. I'll take it, any day.

Originally posted by Stang_Girl617:

Quote:

well, Taxpayers dont help to rebuilt houses destoyed by hurricanes... your insurance does that, I know that for a fact because I live in GA. all insurance around in this area carries it. All "Relief Aid" does is helps keep shelters open, get bussinesses up and running again and so on.

Private homeowners insurance does pay for hurricane damage most of the time (if you have it) but the premiums are then later raised on all policyholders to help make up for the huge losses the insurance companies incur. Unlike the government, they have to make a profit to stay in business. Government agencies (FEMA) does a lot to help hurricane damage victims, as you stated, but in some cases, they also pay for reconstruction when you have no insurance or cannot obtain it because of recurring losses from hurricanes or in many cases, floods. They will continue to pay for future damage and reconstruction even if you live in a hurricane-prone area. That can get ridiculous and it isn't a problem that is isolated to the south or the north.

Quote:

You want to talk about government waist lets talk about people in the north who just decide to take unemployment each winter because its "to Cold" to work. I know some guys on this site may even do it. There may be nothing wrong with it to them, but all those ppl really add up. you dont see people in the south laying out just because it gets hot in the summer... thats just stupid.

Unemployment insurance is paid for by employers and the state goverment - with some federal help. Requirements vary from state to state but generally one has to have worked steadily for at least 6 months to qualify for benefits and you only get about 50%, at best, of your former earnings. That usually won't support an independent adult (one not living with their parents). Most unemployment benefits run out after six months. You could live this way but it would be difficult to pull off every year (they keep careful records) and you'll never get ahead financially or in any kind of career. It would be a losers game that would eventually dry up and I doubt many 'northerners' actually do this on a regular basis. Don't believe everything you hear.

Quote:

Anyway, I dont want to start a fight. The fact is, is most people waste government money every day and they dont know it. Like when you throw that trash out the window on your way to work. Nevertheless, as far as government wastes goes, Alaska ranked number one in the most "porky" state. I am a college student and I dont whine about having to fill out a fafsa. But I also dont get a pell grant. you only recieve than when your parents make under 23,000 a year.

Is any of your college tuition underwritten by any student loans? Unless you come from a very wealthy family, most are, in part. If so, that's a government 'benefit' as taxpayer money is used to subsidize that loan. I have no problem with that as I think it benefits the nation to have educated citizens that can be more productive but as you say: we all benefit from some kind of 'government' program of some kind, some time in our lives. We want it that way, and I don't object to that concept except that too many people then sneer and moan about the 'waste' in government - while taking government money or some form of government aid. That's simply hypocritical.

Quote:

Most of us arent lucky enough to get federal assistance. And as far as our computer "Sucess" i guess it would be nice if everything wasnt OUTSOURCED! lets face it ... the computer you are on now fed chinese and indian familes well tonight. And ppl want to complain their are no jobs... STOP OUTSOURCING and you'll get your dam* job. But no, everyone is soooo worried about saving a dollar.

While we're facing things, let's face this: Who invented Windows? An American, Bill Gates (and his partners). Microsoft is one of the first and foremost software companies in the world, bar none. Silicon valley in California, while shrinking in some aspects, is still a vital part of the computer industry. The outsourcing is for robotic manufacturing jobs and customer service jobs that most people don't even want. Still, America insources many more jobs than it outsources and the outsourcing 'drain' is mostly a media and politican-generated myth.

By the way, when was the last time you (or anyone) purposely paid a lot more for a product simply because it was 'Made in the USA'? That's rare. Everybody wants a bargain and that's why companies outsource where they can. To make the product cheaper and more competative in the marketplace. Computers are far superior and dirt cheap, today, compared to just ten years ago. The competative edge keeps sales up and investors happy, which in turn , feeds the U.S. economy and helps everyone, in the long run.

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*An Interesting fact*: John Kerry says, If he is elected, he will stop all outsourcing, and for those companies who already have, would pay a higher tax. Well isnt it interesting that his own wife, has recently packed up Heinz and moved it to mexico and other second world countries. Something to think about!

Indeed. Kerry is a fraud.

Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

This can be a good place to live, but I dont think the rest of the world is as bad as you think. And in some cases there is more oppurtunity

I apologize for my terrible editing above.

Before I start another flame war here, let me say this;

I am lucky to have been born here. This is the best place on Earth for me. I have been around the world and have seen many places that had very beautiful aspects, but none as heart warmingly beautiful.

I would fight and die for this country without hesitation. Not for the people that govern it. If called to fight, I fight for you. The people of this great country that have been dupped by our government.

We are but a heartbeat away from being a dictatorship. Say the wrong thing or see the wrong thing, and the FBI will wisk you away to some hole and "debrief" you. Or whatever happens when they come get you. (this is all speculation, of course) Make a negative comment about our government and even Mr. 50 will come after you. (couldn't resist mate. no harm intended) This country has forgotten why it was founded. Slave owners that wanted freedom....... Oh wait, that's not right.......

Do you know why cocaine was made illegal? Any guesses at all? I know this is off subject, but it kinda goes along with what I'm saying. It wasn't because it was bad for you, it wasn't because cocaine was that addictive. Cocaine used to be as readily accessable as asprin. It was a Main ingrediant in Coca-Cola. Hence the name, Coca(as in COCAine)-Cola.

No it was more devious than that. Cocaine was made illegal simply because white men were afraid black men would use it in the south, and one of two things would happen. 1. Black men would make a profit off of it; and 2. Black men that use it might get all hyped up on it, and let's face it you do get pretty hyped, and have sex with white women.

Now personally, I have never, and will never use Cocaine. But for all the reasons to place a ban on something, this one is really f'n stupid.

Look into it, watch the History Channel, whatever. I am not making this up. This is OUR government at work. Just one example.

What is wrong with our Government? It's a very simple answer, too simple actually. Greed. Greed for power, money, respect, you name it. "Beware the green eyed monster, for he shall devour you all." I don't know what that's from, but it fits in really well doesn't it?

Anyway, the fix for our problem is even easier than answering the question above. The fix is to fire them all, and start over. Or as some would say, a COUP. But then another asshole would come into power and we'd still be screwed. So what to do? I leave that to you. Later.

Hardly. You've watched one too many episodes of the x-files man. How do you figure we're so close to being a dictatorship? As for Mr. 5 0 he's a true american that see's thru all the bullshit that people post and counters it with FACT .
-Ryan

Keep an open mind my freind, the x-files arent far off in some cases, and whitecobra makes some valid points.

Re: Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

Originally posted by Mach 1 :

Quote:

This can be a good place to live, but I dont think the rest of the world is as bad as you think. And in some cases there is more oppurtunity

The political freedoms we enjoy here in America are generally not equaled in other countries and in many cases, don't even come close. As for 'opportunity': no other nation has the kind of manifold possibilities for making a good living that America offers on a daily basis. Our college graduate rates, our per capita income levels and our yearly GNP (11 trillion dollars last year) all testify to the strength of the United State's economic power, acheived through our capitalist economic system that encourages innovation and offers opportunities for anyone with the ability, ambition and willingness to work to achieve their untimate potential.

Does America have 'faults'? Of course. Does America still present the best hope for those seeking personal and economic freedom? You bet - and the millions of immigrants that go to great lengths to get here every year attest to that ongoing reality.

Finding fault with America
 

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Quote:

Before I start another flame war here, let me say this; I am lucky to have been born here. This is the best place on Earth for me. I have been around the world and have seen many places that had very beautiful aspects, but none as heart warmingly beautiful. I would fight and die for this country without hesitation. Not for the people that govern it. If called to fight, I fight for you. The people of this great country that have been dupped by our government. We are but a heartbeat away from being a dictatorship. Say the wrong thing or see the wrong thing, and the FBI will wisk you away to some hole and "debrief" you. Or whatever happens when they come get you. (this is all speculation, of course) Make a negative comment about our government and even Mr. 50 will come after you. (couldn't resist mate. no harm intended) This country has forgotten why it was founded. Slave owners that wanted freedom....... Oh wait, that's not right.......

Oh dear. Your patriotic fervor was so inspiring there for awhile. Then you had to spoil it by putting on your tinfoil hat. Sigh.

Those who live in the freest county on earth and yet wish to believe that it's really nothing but a dark hellhole of corruption with a sinister government made up of evil people who lie in wait for you to 'slip up' so they can imprison you or worse, are apparently willing victims of the 'conspiracy mentality' that wish to believe that, like the Man Behind the Curtain in The Wizard of Oz, some top-down 'powerful forces' are behind everything that happens and the gulag awaits those who give even a whiff of trouble to the sinister 'government'. How sad.

This kind of pathetic delusion that tries to make modern America into George Orwell's '1984' prison is rampant around college campuses and of course, here on the internet, where anything goes...especially victimist nonsense.

I cannot help but resent the recent practice of mocking the brave men - once affectionately known as the Founding Fathers - who risked and lost both their fortunes and in many cases, their lives to establish the United States of America and to give us the best government ever devised who are now are derided by much lesser people as mere 'slave owners' and thus, dismissed, just as modern public school 'history' books do. Books that go on and on about slavery yet barely mention the hardship, the bloodshed and the loss of life that it cost to establish this nation apart from Great Britain.

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Do you know why cocaine was made illegal? Any guesses at all? I know this is off subject, but it kinda goes along with what I'm saying. It wasn't because it was bad for you, it wasn't because cocaine was that addictive. Cocaine used to be as readily accessable as asprin. It was a Main ingrediant in Coca-Cola. Hence the name, Coca(as in COCAine)-Cola. No it was more devious than that. Cocaine was made illegal simply because white men were afraid black men would use it in the south, and one of two things would happen. 1. Black men would make a profit off of it; and 2. Black men that use it might get all hyped up on it, and let's face it you do get pretty hyped, and have sex with white women. Now personally, I have never, and will never use Cocaine. But for all the reasons to place a ban on something, this one is really f'n stupid.

So is mindless cursing to make some inane point but I noticed that you do it anyway. This little fantasy regarding the genesis of the process of declaring cocaine an addictive drug and thus, illegal for general consumption is a ridiculous exercise in looking for something to whine about, in my opinion. That it has a neat little racist twist makes it even more of a fallacy.

As I understand it, cocaine was being used in not only Coca-Cola but in a number of 'patent' medicnes available over-the-counter to anyone during the later 19th century. Many famous people used some form of cocaine for a number of reasons, including to fight depression and to gain more 'energy'. No one thought it was a problem. Eventually, a growing number of people were becoming addicted to both the 'medicines' and to cocaine, itself, as you would expect of any narcotic. It was quietly removed from Coca Cola in 1903. Medical doctors had noticed it's negative effects and complained to the new Food and Drug administration board. The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1904 and the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1914 effectively outlawed most uses of the drug. No loss.

The story about it being banned because 'the government' was 'afraid' that black men would make money from it and/or get high and rape white women is nonsensical. Some blacks may believe this and some racist whites may have believed it too, at one time, but that doesn't make it true. Some black people still profess to believe that 'white people' introduced AIDS to the black population - on purpose - in order to wipe out black people. Another fantasy that someone will probably be repeating 80 years from now, swearing that: IT'S TRUE! Just as you're repeating the 'cocaine' story you posted here.

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What is wrong with our Government? It's a very simple answer, too simple actually. Greed. Greed for power, money, respect, you name it. "Beware the green eyed monster, for he shall devour you all." I don't know what that's from, but it fits in really well doesn't it?

It's from Shakespeare's 'Othello', spoken by the character Iago to Othello:

O beware, my lord, of jealousy! / It is the green-eyed monster, which doth mock / The meat it feeds on

As it's about jealousy, not greed, it really doesn't fit well at all.

Your simplistic analysis (that all problems in government are based in greed) is irrelevant as it's human nature to want power and wealth and no people or government is immune. From the ancient Greeks to the Romans to the Goths to the kingdoms of the world over the centuries, human greed is the constant but yet, in America, we manage to live very comfortable lives free of most of the fears and problems other nations have to deal with on a regular basis due to an oppressive government. This desire to see the land of the free, America, as an oppressive, devious and sinister place is very odd and rather foolish, in my opinion. The 'tinfoil hat mentality' is a waste of time and ignores all of our very real freedoms in order to maintain a fantasy that you know what's really going on and that it's baaaad. Right.

Quote:

Anyway, the fix for our problem is even easier than answering the question above. The fix is to fire them all, and start over. Or as some would say, a COUP. But then another asshole would come into power and we'd still be screwed. So what to do? I leave that to you. Later.

Thanks for sharing. Please pay the cashier at the door.

I didn't realize that you were such a closed minded, brain washed, Bible thumper. You have got to take those blinders off. My God man. Where have you been for the last......how old are you?

How can you not see that the rest of the world hates us? Here you need to check out this site. freedomunderground

Look up some of the things about Spetember 11, granted, some of what they have to offer is a bit out there, but other parts have chills running down your spine.

But ofcourse to you this is all mindless babble, and they are soooo out there. Blah blah blah, you're standard response to all things that don't agree with what you think. This is why I will not talk with you about GOD anymore.

Wake up.

Re: Re: Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

There's very many democratic countrys out there. What am I missing? How many dictatorships are left in the world today? And what great benefit do we get from these great political freedoms? Vote for another crooked politician to replace the last one. Of course the idea is awesome, but the size of our govt., the fraud, waste and abuse of our tax dollars isnt going to change easily and probably never will. I just would like to see the wasted billions being put to good use, and I dont think thats unfair or too much to ask.

I had no idea that so many countries were so oppressive to thier people and limited thier potential. Shocking really. Just didnt see that in my travels. Our large size presents opportunities to the professional immigrants. What about all the illegal ones that get a free ride? Not to mention the terrorists who come here and stay with their outdated, illegal visa or passports. No wonder they come, easy to get in, and lots of jobs to take from americans who now have less opportunity.

Instead of importing doctors and engineers, why dont we take some of the wasted trillions and train our own people to do these jobs?

Our country is losing its identity. Have you been out of New England recently?

Throwing stones from glass houses
 

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Quote:

I didn't realize that you were such a closed minded, brain washed, Bible thumper. You have got to take those blinders off. My God man. Where have you been for the last......how old are you?

Your juvenile name-calling (where did I mention religion in my previous posts on this thread) simply validates your immaturity and lack of understanding of that which you profess to know.

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How can you not see that the rest of the world hates us? Here you need to check out this site. Look up some of the things about Spetember 11, granted, some of what they have to offer is a bit out there, but other parts have chills running down your spine. But of course to you this is all mindless babble, and they are soooo out there. Blah blah blah, you're standard response to all things that don't agree with what you think. This is why I will not talk with you about GOD anymore. Wake up.

Right. As soon as you grow up. What are you? 18, 20?

You have latched on to a bunch of BS and think it is wisdom and knowledge. Naturally, you resent being called on it as you really have no basis for what you choose to believe. That's your folly and it's obvious to all.

As for God; you are the fellow who thinks the only real authority mankind has ever had for knowing about God and Christ - the bible - is 'inaccurate', corrupted by translation and the intent of evil men to mislead, yet you take the name of 'Christian'. That is ridiculous on it's face. Without the bible your alleged Christianity is a hollow shell. No wonder you don't wish to discuss that kind of irrationality, especially with one who does use the bible as his authority in spiritual matters and discussions about God.

Before you flippantly tell other people to 'wake up', try gaining more knowledge about America and it's history - especially including geopolitics - than you now possess. Then we'll talk. That you wish to take a cellphone to a gunfight and then get hurt is your problem. Your whining and name-calling won't hide it, either, so you can drop that juvenile line of response when you're challenged on some uninformed nonsense you choose to post on a nationally-seen messageboard. People will inevitably disagree with you and if you really can't handle it then don't post gibberish. It's a big world and you don't know much about it, that is clear. That you think you do is your fatal error.

Wise up.

Re: Re: Re: Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

Originally posted by Mach 1 :

Quote:

There's very many democratic countrys out there. What am I missing? How many dictatorships are left in the world today?

You're missing a lot so apparently you are either not as well-traveled as you believe or you are simply not very observant.

Dictatorships abound all over the world. Here are just some off the top of my head:

China, North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Cuba, Paraguay, Yeman, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, Colombia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, to name just a few. China, alone, is a brutal communist dictatorship of over one billion people, almost one-eighth of the world's total population. Surprised that you didn't notice, world traveler that you are. Add in the populations of the countries I listed (I left a few out, especially in Africa) and you proably have around a quarter of the world's people under some dictator, king or self-styled 'strongman' rule.

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And what great benefit do we get from these great political freedoms? Vote for another crooked politician to replace the last one. Of course the idea is awesome, but the size of our govt., the fraud, waste and abuse of our tax dollars isnt going to change easily and probably never will. I just would like to see the wasted billions being put to good use, and I dont think thats unfair or too much to ask.

No, it isn't but your hyper-cynicism toward our government and it's manifest freedoms - including your constitutional right to criticize it here on the internet - is unwarranted. Not many Americans think they are oppressed or denied much by government and most expect even more, which is part of the problem, because, as President Reagan once said: "the government that is big enougfh to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away".

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I had no idea that so many countries were so oppressive to thier people and limited thier potential. Shocking really. Just didnt see that in my travels. Our large size presents opportunities to the professional immigrants.

I've already addressed your woeful lack of knowlege regarding dictatorships around the world. Feel free to read the list again if necessary.

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What about all the illegal ones that get a free ride? Not to mention the terrorists who come here and stay with their outdated, illegal visa or passports. No wonder they come, easy to get in, and lots of jobs to take from americans who now have less opportunity.

I agree that illegal immigration and our porous borders are a real threat to our national economy and our national security. Even so, that fact doesn't make American government the disaster you have tried to portray here.

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Instead of importing doctors and engineers, why dont we take some of the wasted trillions and train our own people to do these jobs?

We (America) import doctors and engineers because they are in short supply here. Both academic disciplines are very difficult and too many America college students either can't do the work or don't want to. It's so much easier to wallow in 'Feminist studies' and 'Black History' than to do the work that results in solid grasp of science and math, necerssary to obtain a medical degree or an engineering certification. Schools that teach people how to become doctors and engineers exist and always have but applicants either don't meet the rigorious standards necessary to qualify for a spot or would-be students do not apply. Film school is so much more attractive, as are 'communications' and 'art' degrees. Hence: we import doctors and engineers or medical and engineering students, in most cases.

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Our country is losing its identity. Have you been out of New England recently?

Yes and yes but xenophobia will get you nowhere these days. Don't even go there.

Originally posted by Mach 1 :



"There's very many democratic countrys out there. What am I missing? How many dictatorships are left in the world today?"


Originally posted by Mr 5 0


"Dictatorships abound all over the world. Here are just some off the top of my head:

China, North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Cuba, Paraguay, Yeman, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, Colombia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, to name just a few. China, alone, is a brutal communist dictatorship of over one billion people, almost one-eighth of the world's total population. Surprised that you didn't notice, world traveler that you are. Add in the populations of the countries I listed (I left a few out, especially in Africa) and you proably have around a quarter of the world's people under some dictator, king or self-styled 'strongman' rule."

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

http://members.tccoa.com/wolfguard/owned-cat.jpg

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

Ok, I guess what I said and the point I was trying to make didnt come across as the same. Outside of the communist and third world countries you mention, there is plenty of freedom to be found outside of America.


[i][/B][/QUOTE]

No, it isn't but your hyper-cynicism toward our government and it's manifest freedoms - including your constitutional right to criticize it here on the internet - is unwarranted. Not many Americans think they are oppressed or denied much by government and most expect even more, which is part of the problem, because, as President Reagan once said: "the government that is big enougfh to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away".

[i][/B][/QUOTE]

I have been down lately and have developed a negative outlook, but our government certainly isnt perfect in a lot of areas, and Im not afraid to mention the negatives. Dont get me started on the legal system thats been screwing me around unjustly for the last year...

[i][/B][/QUOTE]

I agree that illegal immigration and our porous borders are a real threat to our national economy and our national security. Even so, that fact doesn't make American government the disaster you have tried to portray here.

[i][/B][/QUOTE]

We (America) import doctors and engineers because they are in short supply here. Both academic disciplines are very difficult and too many America college students either can't do the work or don't want to. It's so much easier to wallow in 'Feminist studies' and 'Black History' than to do the work that results in solid grasp of science and math, necerssary to obtain a medical degree or an engineering certification. Schools that teach people how to become doctors and engineers exist and always have but applicants either don't meet the rigorious standards necessary to qualify for a spot or would-be students do not apply. Film school is so much more attractive, as are 'communications' and 'art' degrees. Hence: we import doctors and engineers or medical and engineering students, in most cases.

[i] [/B][/QUOTE]


Agreed. But I think our education system could be improved greatly, and I dont feel I made our govt. out to be a disaster, just mentioning some areas that need work

Well, you got me there. :rolleyes:

Don't speak for anyone other than yourself. I don't speak for anyone other than myself. I see now that you are obviously one of great intelligence, and are indeed well educated. However, that does not mean that you, or I for that matter, know anything about what you speak. All I want to know from you is that you will at least question what the people in power tell you. If you choose to believe the crap they spew out, so be it. That's all on you. As for me, I like to look deeper.

One question for you, have you ever lied about anything? Ever?


You must be the perfect Republican.

29 actually, but to make your superior intellect feel better, sure...I'm 18-20. Whatever that has to do with it.



One day the truth will smack you in the face and you won't have a choice but to accept it. Until then, Baa baa.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America: home of the free, land of the brave
 

Originally posted by Mach 1

Quote:

Ok, I guess what I said and the point I was trying to make didnt come across as the same. Outside of the communist and third world countries you mention, there is plenty of freedom to be found outside of America.

There are socialist governments all over the world including Canada, Mexico and most of Europe but nowhere does any nations citizens have the rights and freedoms Americans have. England, for instance, while quite 'free' and in many ways similar to the United States, has no Bill of Rights, as America does. Few - if any - other nations do, in fact. France, Germany and Japan all have democratic governments but they are quite different democracies than what we practice in America and their socialist economies hold down their citizens abilities to prosper as much as they could, if they were unfettered by restrictive laws and exorbitant taxation on both business and individuals. In short: while a good portion of the world can be considered 'free', no nation affords it citizens the constitutional rights, legal protections and financial opportunities that America does.

Quote:

I have been down lately and have developed a negative outlook, but our government certainly isnt perfect in a lot of areas, and Im not afraid to mention the negatives. Dont get me started on the legal system thats been screwing me around unjustly for the last year...

We all have our problems and I know that even a speeding ticket can send people off on an anti-police, anti-government rant. That doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. Of course our county has 'negatives'. It always has and always will. The difference is that America and it's people can - and have - evolved over time. We cast off slavery and that was a major hurdle. Then, racial discrimination had to be overcome, and it has, for the most part. That's America. We live and we DO learn.

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Agreed. But I think our education system could be improved greatly, and I dont feel I made our govt. out to be a disaster, just mentioning some areas that need work

Our education system has problems, primarily in the public school system and the costs of college are getting ridiculous. That noted: I saw your comments as very negative toward a county that I see as the best place in the world to live and work and raise a family. Our freedoms and our opportunites to explore our personal possibilites are unlike that of any other country on earth. Beyond our very high standard of living we also have a govenment that is subject to change by the will of the people, as it has over the centuries. No human government will ever be perfect or please everyone all the time but the American form of representative democracy is the best yet seen and until something else comes along that can improve on it, I will always defend America to anyone, especially another American, even while stipulating that it has some faults and shortcomings.

Requiescat in pace
 

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Quote:

Well, you got me there.

I accept your surrender.

Quote:

Don't speak for anyone other than yourself. I don't speak for anyone other than myself. I see now that you are obviously one of great intelligence, and are indeed well educated. However, that does not mean that you, or I for that matter, know anything about what you speak. All I want to know from you is that you will at least question what the people in power tell you. If you choose to believe the crap they spew out, so be it. That's all on you. As for me, I like to look deeper.

If you don't know what you are commenting on, you might just as well not comment. We all have opinions but when they are based on breathless, tabloid-style conspiracy theories they are basically rendered as invalid. Questioning authority is admirable and often necessary but when it's done as a knee-jeck reaction based on 'conspiracy theory' attitudes it is of little to no value to you or anyone else.

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One question for you, have you ever lied about anything? Ever?

Yes, and so has the Pope. Does that make the Catholic faith invalid? I think not. The fact that government officials have lied to the people on occasion does not automatically render conspiracy theories valid or ipso facto government invalid and inherently untrustworthy.

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You must be the perfect Republican.

I'm not sure what that remark is intended to convey but informationally: I am a Christian conservative who supports the Republican party - most of the time.

Quote:

29 actually, but to make your superior intellect feel better, sure...I'm 18-20. Whatever that has to do with it.

Your name-calling response when you are challenged on anything you post here is very immature, that's why I asked. Do you think you are more mature at 29 then you were at 18? I would hope so. Try acting like it and drop the lame attempts at sarcasm. You have no talent for it at all and it makes you appear immature, despite your chronological age.

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One day the truth will smack you in the face and you won't have a choice but to accept it. Until then, Baa baa.

One day you will mature enough to realize how ridiculous some of your comments here and the theories they are based on really are. Until then: We have your number so don't call us, we'll call you. Thanks for stopping by.

Jim's really OK
 

Don't take anything too seriously here BWC on a political issue. Jim Sweeters is sreally an OK guy from what I've seen over the last 5 years. He is well educated and writes very well.

My impression is that he is mostly a John Bircher / religeous right kind of guy that thinks he has everything pretty much figured out. He really doesn't tolerate apposing opinions very well.

My bet is that he was captain of the debate team in highschool and in college. He seems to see any differing opinion as an opportunity for debate rather than an opportunity for examining another point of view.

He is rather well read, well informed, and debates very well. I wish he would be a little less arrogant in his responses. There are other intelligent people here with valid opinions that might not exactly coincide with his views.

Slightly less strident responses could actually strengthen some of Jim's responses IMHO. Actually, I tend to agree on many points that he expresses. At any rate, I'm happy to see some spirited discussion at MW.

I sometimes wonder if Jim has ever read the Declaration of Independence? Some would see it as a seditious document.

Rev

Re: Jim's really OK
 

Originally posted by Rev :

Quote:

Don't take anything too seriously here BWC on a political issue. Jim Sweeters is really an OK guy from what I've seen over the last 5 years. He is well educated and writes very well. My impression is that he is mostly a John Bircher / religeous right kind of guy that thinks he has everything pretty much figured out. He really doesn't tolerate apposing opinions very well.

Excuse me, but I believe my name has been mentioned. That being the case, I would like to respond.

Mr. 5.0, a Christian conservative, gets a bellyfull of liberal drivel every day on the internet and in response, he sometimes posts factual and cogent messages in opposition to liberal canards and fallacies. That Mr. 5.0 has to read and consider these messages from liberals belies the contention that he does not 'tolerate' opposing opinions'. 'Accepting as fact' and 'tolerating' are far different and you should know that, Rev.

Quote:

My bet is that he was captain of the debate team in highschool and in college. He seems to see any differing opinion as an opportunity for debate rather than an opportunity for examining another point of view.

See above response.

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He is rather well read, well informed, and debates very well. I wish he would be a little less arrogant in his responses. There are other intelligent people here with valid opinions that might not exactly coincide with his views.

Perhaps Mr. 5.0 is weary of liberal political nonsense on stilts parading as fact and truth on the internet. Perhaps he has been castigated and called any number of foul names when opposing such tripe and occasionally chooses to respond in kind, as is his right, within site posting rules. Perhaps he also waits for an opposing view to be posted before posting his own, contrary opinion thus making charges of non-toleration of other views invalid and obviously specious. Again: acceptance and toleration are not the same or even close. I 'tolerate' liberal views all the time - but I do not 'accept' them. An obvious difference.

Quote:

Slightly less strident responses could actually strengthen some of Jim's responses IMHO. Actually, I tend to agree on many points that he expresses. At any rate, I'm happy to see some spirited discussion at MW.

Slightly less uninformed and belligerent messages in response to mine could actually strengthen liberal responses. The premise that anything I write that is even slightly sarcastic in response to some liberal bilge somehow undermines my point is palpable nonsense, IMHO. If I didn't respond to some of these people there would be little to no discussion here at all. That is painfully obvious.

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I sometimes wonder if Jim has ever read the Declaration of Independence? Some would see it as a seditious document.

I love it when I'm accused of being 'strident' by someone who, in the next paragraph is condescending enough to then pretend to 'wonder' if I've ever read the Declaration of Independence. The hypocrisy in that one comment is glaring and you should be embarrassed by it, Rev.

The liberal's knee-jerk response to conservative opinion is always the same: it's 'mean', it's 'unfair' and so, it somehow deprives some uninformed liberal of his right to broadcast his dearth of knowledge on the internet without challenges. They wish.

Liberals can't take what they are ever willing to dish out: condescending sarcasm, arrogant assertations that their opinion is the only correct one and a lack of toleration for opposing views. Facts are not their friends and they bristle when they are challenged on their assertations. The proof is right here on this thread. My pointed challenges to ridiculous comments are often met with name-calling and then, condescending posts like yours, Rev. If you so enjoy 'spirited discussion' as you claimed, then don't find fault when the discussion doesn't always end up the way you might believe that it should.

It's the internet. Don't take it too seriously or you'll go mad. I use it as a hobby to blow off silly liberals and those who post what I consider nonsense masquarading as truth. I try to inform the uninformed and teach those without knowledge. I hope that I make a few people think. It's fun for me and when it gets nasty or boring, I stop posting and life goes on. Thus it ever was and will be.

Owned (and too dense to know it)
 

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Quote:

So what if my communication skills aren't up to par, and my vocabulary isn't as vast as yours.

Thanks for your honesty.

Quote:

Unlike you I haven't quite the time to read every tiny little tid bit of information essentually from the same source. By that I mean Officail Press Releases that have been censored to death. I should read and listen more, but I have a life to live. Not to say that you don't, however you do seem to spend an awful lot of time replying to these posts. Again....not doing anything but stating the obvious from an outside view.

Thanks for your continued honesty about being uninformed and ill-equipped to debate current issues.

Quote:

You must be really anal retentive. Are you married? Is your wife satisfied? Do you get freaky in bed? I'm not trying to be an jerk, just wondering. No more or less.

No need to try being a jerk, that sentence proves that your being a jerk is obviously an innate character trait. Thanks for proving it, once again.

Quote:

Actually I sort of don't want to know. And just to make myself clear here, I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU.

Yes, smarmy, insulting 'questions' about my sex life and my wife could never be seen as an attack. Nooooo. :rolleyes:

I think you've shown us all what you are and should leave this thread before you get banned for violation of the messageboard rules. Posting snotty, idiotic insults that you somehow think you can excuse by typing (in CAPS) that you're 'not attacking me' is so juvenile and transparent that it flabbergasts even me. Give it up.

BWC post removed "forum rules and personal attack violations"
 

If it happens again BWC is history. Please keep personal attacks to yourself rather than in the public eye.

Re: Re: Jim's really OK
 

I didn't mean to be condescending to Jim Sweeters, Mr 50. I thought I was merely pointing out some strengths and weaknesses since he is a major contributor to this thread. I realize that he does endure personal attacks which are certainly uncalled for, perhaps accounting somewhat for his "stridency"..

He does refer to those who disagree with him (or their opinions) as mindless, ungrateful, self centered, simplistic, juvenile, flippant, whining, uninformed, gibberish, unobservant, tabloid style, immature, rediculous, drivel, specious, and hypocritical.

My friends and family would certainly get a kick out of the thought that I was much in the way of being a "liberal". I might be in some social areas such as constitutionaly guaranteed civil liberties, abortion rights, etc. but am mostly conservative in nature.

I mentioned the Declaration of Independence because it actually says that the American public can seize control of the government if necessary to keep a free society. Of course that was before the constitution was in effect. I did wonder if Jim had read it and what he thought about it?

I really didn't have an expectation as to how this thread would turn out and I did enjoy the spirited discussion and really didn't mean any harm toward anyone. I do realize that it's the internet and that one will see a variety of opinions and styles of posting. I'm glad that Jim and the rest of us enjoy it.

Rev

Threats?
 

Threats of exclusion from the site should be made privately in IMHO. The actual exclusion of a member from MW has occurred in the distant past. Take my word for it, it wasn't a pretty scenario and caused a fair amount of dissension here at MW. My feeling is that any reprimand should be in an email or PM and not made publicly for all the world to see. That usually just backs a person into a corner and forces him to take some kind of defensive stand whether he wants to or not. At least that's what has occurred in the past.

Rev

Re: Re: Re: Jim's really OK
 

Originally posted by Rev :

Quote:

I didn't mean to be condescending to Jim Sweeters, Mr 50. I thought I was merely pointing out some strengths and weaknesses since he is a major contributor to this thread. I realize that he does endure personal attacks which are certainly uncalled for, perhaps accounting somewhat for his "stridency". He does refer to those who disagree with him (or their opinions) as mindless, ungrateful, self centered, simplistic, juvenile, flippant, whining, uninformed, gibberish, unobservant, tabloid style, immature, rediculous, drivel, specious, and hypocritical.

I call ridiculous mindless, immature, simplistic, juvenile, flippant, whining, unobservant, tabloid-style uninformed, specioius, hypocritical, gibberish and drivel from self-centered, ungrateful posters exactly what it is. It's axiomatic that some of the people my comments are directed to don't like to receive contrary comments. They wish to post their often strange opinions with no rebuttal or challenge and when they can't get away with doing so they leap into the basest mode of communication: making smarmy comments about my sex life, for instance. If that isn't 'immature drivel' I don't know what is. Thankfully, it always reflects far worse on the originator than on the intended receipent. It can even get you banned here.

Quote:

My friends and family would certainly get a kick out of the thought that I was much in the way of being a "liberal". I might be in some social areas such as constitutionaly guaranteed civil liberties, abortion rights, etc. but am mostly conservative in nature.

I call them the way I see them, Rev. I commend you for having the good sense to have rejected at least some of the tenets of liberalism, a failed ideology that has done far more harm than good in the past 70 years. However, your 'social' views appear to be right in line with the liberal ideology so the term 'liberal', at least when applied to you, is not as mistaken as you might wish to believe. Meanwhile, I remain a conservative and need not resort to nuances and exceptions in order to define my political ideology.

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I mentioned the Declaration of Independence because it actually says that the American public can seize control of the government if necessary to keep a free society. Of course that was before the constitution was in effect. I did wonder if Jim had read it and what he thought about it?

Of course I've read it. Many times. Your asking the question is odd, at best, and I took it to be superciliousness on your part. Perhaps I was mistaken. Let's assume that for now and move on.

In any case, we all know (or should know) that the Declaration of Independence outlined what the framers believed the obligation of government consisted of, which, in their minds, was to protect individual liberties and defend the rights of the people. If and when it failed to do so, the people, who are the government - in a democracy - have a moral, God-given right to dissolve that government. Thomas Jefferson believed this and so did the rest of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Of course, that was 228 years ago when less than 3 million mostly homogeneous people - most of them working on farms - and 13 colonies made up what was called ' America'. We are the strongest nation on earth, militarily and economically, and we have two centuies of history behind us now, including a civil war and two 'world' wars. America has a population almost 100 times what it was in 1776 and a very diverse population it is, made up of almost entirely of immigrants or people who are descended from immigrants, not the British subjects that the Declaration was written to represent. However, the basic principle of democracy still holds true: that the government is empowered by the people and can be dissolved by the people. How 'the people' would go about that - dissolving the federal government - without a civil war, is not clear. That the citizens of today's America have any real interest in doing so is also not very obvious to me.

We all want government to conform to our personal values and political ideology but it never totally has been able to do so - and it never will. Political parties, the electoral system and our represenative democracy appear to be doing an adequate job on most levels that affect the majority of us. I think the federal judiciary is out of control but even that sad stste of affairs could be fixed by the political, legislative process if we ever get fed up enhough to demand it, which I think is possible.

Quote:

I really didn't have an expectation as to how this thread would turn out and I did enjoy the spirited discussion and really didn't mean any harm toward anyone. I do realize that it's the internet and that one will see a variety of opinions and styles of posting. I'm glad that Jim and the rest of us enjoy it.

I do enjoy posting (as my time permits) but I don't really post to just one person. I could use a PM or e-mail for that. I post reply messages for whomever reads the message and that is far more than the individual I'm responding to. I write a bit of political commentary for internet political websites and I also spend the majority of my internet time on political forums elsewhere and I have a fairly large potential 'audience' there.

I take the insults and name-calling with a grain of salt and always consider the source. Most of the insulting responses I receive on the internet are from uninformed folks who wouldn't dare say the same things to my face, I'm sure. I always try respond in kind, just to keep the other person cognizant of their error. When a poster responds to one of my messages thoughtfully and politely, I try to always reply in the same tone. However, when I'm mocked, insulted and called names, I use sarcasm and derision fairly effectively, I believe. I find it ironic that when a liberal insults me he's basically ignored and yet when I reply to those kinds of insults with some form of disdain, I'm chided for being 'strident', etc. It appears that decorum and civility are expected to be a one-way street for conservatives. Well, we're used to that double-standard but I still disagree with the concept on principle.

Thanks for your interest and comments, Rev. I do my best to keep things 'spirited' wherver I go. The BOL on MW is no exception.

Tired:
 

You might say that America is not the envy of the world, you know there is a reason why I moved here, the reason is that I came looking for the american dream and you know what??? I found it!!! You will never understand until you have to live in a country that doesn't have anything and the people is starving. You don't understand this becuase you have everything you want and if you don't you can compain about it, I am tired of listening all this "americans" whine about how bad is their country. Sometimes it seems that people that are not americans and they have to go to hell and back to get some paper to be able to even be here are more americans than the real ones. STOP WHINING and see how good you have it!

not everybody has it good and we americans have plenty of valid reasons to whine. glad you found your dream here, but it doesnt mean everybody has.

It is impossible to make an entire group happy. Since when have we all been totally satisfied with the new mustangs? There are a lot of things about this country I would like to see improved. But...the fact that we do not have to worry about meeting the same fate those poor people are meeting when they are beheaded.....makes me very, very happy to be an American.
Ryan

sorry. I somehow double posted..and it wont let me delete it. :(

Re: Tired:
 

Originally posted by CupCake :

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You might say that America is not the envy of the world, you know there is a reason why I moved here, the reason is that I came looking for the american dream and you know what??? I found it!!! You will never understand until you have to live in a country that doesn't have anything and the people is starving. You don't understand this becuase you have everything you want and if you don't you can compain about it, I am tired of listening all this "americans" whine about how bad is their country. Sometimes it seems that people that are not americans and they have to go to hell and back to get some paper to be able to even be here are more americans than the real ones. STOP WHINING and see how good you have it!

Thanks - again - for bringing some much-needed perspective to the patently false argument that America is the source of the world's problems and to the constant whining from too many very comfortable Americans who have no real conception of how free and open our nation is and only see the negative because they take their freedom and prosperity for granted, never having known anything else. That's forgivable - but to a person like you, Cup Cake, born and raised in a far less prosperous and democratic land, the American whining and complaining must seem ridiculous and somewhat of a mystery.

I hesitate to say it, but: get used to it. The American education system tends to focus on things like slavery (officially and legally ended in 1863) - 141 years - 7 generations- ago)and other negative aspects of Americas history and the media (TV and newspapers, especially) always focus on 'bad news' and especially during a Republican administration. Thus, we have young people growing up to believe that America is somehow a bad place and that we are a racist , oppressive nation. Absurd? Of course...but this is what is taught in too many public schools and the university today. The folks who promote this false and negative point of view are generally called the 'Blame America First' crowd. Whatever happens, it's somehow America's (or President Bush's) 'fault'. We're too 'arrogant', too rich, use too many resources, and so on. That this is usually nonsense is obvious to many of us but a lot of Americans (too many) buy into it and thus you'll see this kind of 'it's all America's fault-type' messages on boards such as this one, where general topics are discussed. Sad, isn't it?

It's natural to want to see your country improve and of course a nation as large as America wil always have some problems to deal with but the complaining and general negativity some people go on about is far beyond the reality of America, today. That you - as an immigrant - can clearly see this and are honestly annoyed, if not offended by those who bad-mouth their own nation is heartening. I applaud your honesty and ability to tell those who whine about America that they are quite wrong and clearly unappreciative of what they so freely take as their due - and then demand more and complain when they think they've found some 'faults' in the most free and clearly the most powerful economic system in the world today.

Like you, I deeply appreciate the freedoms and opportunity America offers to all. Like you, I get annoyed at the whiners and complainers who see nothing but negatives in the best country on earth. Unlike you, I was born and have lived all my life in this country (with a few trips out of it on vacations) and I'm very proud of my nation and am pleased to be able to share it's benefits and freedoms with you and millions of other immigrants who have made this nation great because they appreciated it and took advantage of it's freedoms and opportunities, Cup Cake.

Keep up that great attitude of yours and never let the grumblers and complainers change your mind. :)

Testimony
 

The very fact that we can disagree with American policy is testimony to the freedom and liberties that we enjoy as Americans. We can complain and yes even "whine" about governmental actions, whenever we see the need, and in any public forum, without fear of retribution (theoretically) from governmental agencies. Many times this criticism of the American government reaches such proportions that changes are made in governmental policy without even being put to a vote or without an election to "throw the so-and-so's out".

Criticisms often catch the ear of our elected representitives, who usually have their ear to the ground so to speak, and and are always looking towards the next election. Complaints do make a difference in future policies long before any election takes place. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you have no right to complain or speak out against governmental policy. You do have that constitutionally guaranteed right, and it can make a difference in how business is conducted by the USA.

Rev

A fine line between dissent and disrespect
 

I seriously doubt that it's anyone exercising their First Amendment right that CupCake objects to. I would assume that it's the more generalized America-bashing that we sometimes see on the internet, and MW is no exception.

Real change in government policies does often originate from the bottom up but the simple-minded whining about how 'awful' America is because of this or that is simply ridiculous in many cases and I can see why an immigrant like CupCake, grateful to be in America and enjoying our bounty, views it as unseemly. So do I.

Re: A fine line between dissent and disrespect
 

What is one person's garbage can be another persons treasure. I certainly would not denigrate Cup Cake's appreciation of American liberties and opportunities. I'm glad that you agree that "garss roots" discussions (often critical of the US) can influence American policies. Fortunately, what one person sees as baseless, simple minded whining can still be put forth for the public and elected officialdom to judge for itself.

Rev

The difference between dissent and disrespect
 

Opinions and attitudes toward our government will always differ in a nation of over 290 million diverse people. It's the barely hidden contempt some people (not meaning you, Rev) have for their country that I often find alarming and disgusting.

We can all disagree on politicians and policies, as we often do, but when it comes to 'America' being slammed as 'imperialist', 'racist', 'oppressive' and other absurd denigrations I see so casually spewed on internet messageboards, that is offensive as well as stupid.

To an immigrant like CupCake, who has actually lived with true (not theoretical) oppression, poverty and other experiences virtually unknown in America, seeing comfortable, totally free middle-class people saying such things about the freest and most prosperous nation on the planet, a nation that is their mother country, as it were, must just seem crazy.

I couldn't blame her.

In some circles, trashing America has somehow become 'patriotic' and praising America the mark of the fool...in their view. Free-thinkers like this lose me. Intellectual-wannabes that are too smart to think, in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the concept that America can not be improved. That should be a given. It's the definition of what constitutes 'improvement' that is the base of the conflict between those who love and appreciate their country and those who,, too often, consider themselves 'citizens of the world', see honest patriotism as xenophobia or a 'cover' for suspected sinister intentions and think it's 'patriotic' to slander America.

We can easily dispute the specific policies and programns of any administration and politicians are always flawed, easily dissected and often found wanting in some area. That is democracy at work and the 'complaining and whining' can be useful, in some - but not all - cases. I'll never tell someone not to complain about any aspect of governmentt even if I disagree. That makes for healthy discussion, as you noted earlier. It's the sneering dismissal and denigration of America as a free country, founded on great moral and legal principles and still growing and evolving today that offends both 'Cup Cake' and folks like me.

I'm offended by the left's almost maniacal focus on things like slavery and the destruction of Native Americans, all a part of our history, to be sure, but too often overdrawn and wrongly used to call America an 'oppressor' and other inane names while ignoring the unprecedented opportunities this great nation offers. Our national success is sometimes seen as the exploitation of people and resources instead of a model of the efficiency of capitalism, the free market and the native ambition and hard work of millions and millions of Americans, mostly all immigrants at some point in the past and even today. It would be foolish to ignore dark parts of our national history or to refuse to deal with mistakes and misjudgements made decades, sometimes centuries ago. America is not 'perfect' and no one believes that it is. However, on balance, 'America' - and all that name includes - is the best the world can offer to anyone today, warts and all.

I am proud of my country and glad to welcome others like 'CupCake' into it. That she deeply appreciates our nation and all it offers both personally and financially is a refreshing change from spoiled Americans trashing their own country and believing that doing so is somehow both 'patriotic' and sophisticated instead of being merely ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them. I've had a bellyful of that attitude. I would hope others have , too. I applaud CupCake and her positive attitude here. She'll make a fine American. :)

Re: The difference between dissent and disrespect
 

I tend to disagree that Americans are trashing thier own country because they think its "patriotic" and "sophisticated". That certainly doesnt apply to me. Have you ever opened your mind to the possiblility that people have other reasons for thier disent with this country?

Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them".

I think even you have gone to far this time.

I saw a funny bumper sticker on a Honda with a fartpipe.
It said "War is not the answer."
I pulled up next to the little twit, and glanced over.
He revved his little engine.
I smirked and said, "We're at WAR with TERRORISM. If war isn't the answer, I guess in your eyes terrorism must be the next best option?"

And then he was owned.

I've learned you cannot discuss politics with librals.
You state the facts to prove their stance is meaningless...
They reply with "well, I feel..."
Conversation over. You can't argue facts with feelings.

End of rant.
Just my 2 bits.

Re: Re: The difference between dissent and disrespect
 

Originally posted by Mach 1 :

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I tend to disagree that Americans are trashing thier own country because they think its "patriotic" and "sophisticated". That certainly doesnt apply to me. Have you ever opened your mind to the possiblility that people have other reasons for thier disent with this country?

I've 'opened my mind', as you disingenuously put it, on an almost daily basis for many years, debating politics and public policy with liberals on the internet. I'm well aware of the numerous 'dissents' liberals hold and I've refuted and discussed them literally hundreds of times. I can attest to the fact that most of their complaints are either about nebulous 'problems' or else they hate the president and are rabidly anti-war, which is not quite the same as being anti-American.

Unfortunately, I encounter many people who seem to either be indoctrinated with leftist dogmas that are based on the perceived 'evils' of America ('rampant consumerism' is just one of many) or claim to be disgusted with their own country - according to them - yet somehow always control their disgust well enough to enjoy every benefit America can provide, as I never fail to remind them. When challenged on their assertations and conclusions they often are defensive and claim that it's actually 'patriotic' to trash America and they 'just want to make it a better nation' and are 'not afraid to see it's faults'. They do seem far less able to see it's attributes and apparenty are loath to mention them, if they do.

The liberal's (who trash America) stated desire to 'improve' America is fraught with ambiguous meanings and I'm sure every despot and oppressive government in the world made a similar claim at one time. I am instinctively wary of those who, (a) can't seem to find much good to say about their own country and, (b) always seem to want to 'fix it' with some socialist, utopian set of schemes that must have sounded great in a politics bull session back in college but that is usually just a re-hash of failed socialist concepts that ignore the humanity and the normal yearnings of the very people such schemes purport to benefit.

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Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them".

Not every liberal who thinks 'big business' should be strangled by oppressive taxes, that the wealth of the nation should be 'distributed' by government or that 'government' should control every facet of our lives is a communist or even a socialist - but many are, at heart and don't even know it. They want to replace freedom with dependence and substitute opportunity for lowered expectations and mandated outcomes. That's just wrong.

As I stipulated: as a people, we can and will always disagree on specifics and certain politicians or policies but I find that most anti-American types (not counting Canadians or The French who are hardwired to hate America) see mostly 'problems' instead of opportunities in America and that seriously think calling the president names and being vocally anti-war is somehow a sophisticated political posture and claiming to want to make America 'better' by making it more socialistic is 'patriotic'.

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I think even you have gone to far this time.

Think what you like. It should be obvious that I disagree. I find that when I begin to come close to the truth some people get defensive. Maybe that's just me. In any case, it's simply my personal observations and opinions but I would be happy to discuss them with you here if you ever wish to do so.

You are way more interested, informed, and passionate about politics than I am or care to be. You make valid points, and I do not wish to debate this subject. Just seems like you dont see any good at all to the "liberal" viewpoint, and I think they have some good points as well.

Too bad we cant find a happy medium for everybody.