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Fuel Prices
So with several refineries down, and some expected to be down for months, oil drilling platforms floating around the Gulf of Mexico, power outages, and pipeline damage, what do you think the price of regular unleaded gasoline will rise to?
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Re: Fuel Prices
It will get over 4 bux in Cali and on the East coast but it wont break $3.20 here where I am at.
I paid $7.85 a gallon for race gas a few weeks ago so i guess I cant complain. :o |
Re: Fuel Prices
The price of gas is out of control. I bet it will break $5/gallon on the East coast within the next 3 weeks.
The oil companys and politicians are loving every minute of it too. As the price of oil increases, they get richer which is the same reason why the federal goverment willNEVER step in an regulate oil prices. Why would they slit their own throats..... Drive offs at the pumps are going to increase dramatically, people will resort to siphoning fuel out of vehicals, crime will increase.... It's going to get worse before it gets better...much worse! Ever see the movie MAD MAX?? Well, that's what it will eventually come to if something isn't done. |
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Its already over $3.00 a gal here. Ive been selling locking fuel caps like mad LOL. Its plain nuts for them to do this. I only have to drive about 4 miles to get to work so I guess I just wont go any where else for a while.
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I understand why prices rise for the cost of gas, but what I cannot comprehend is how suddenly, the very day after Katrina hit, all the gasoline dealers immediately had a 50 cent price increase. I know that they are raising prices in preparation for their own raised costs, but until they actually see those costs from their suppliers, they are raking in the profits. And we all know that there will be significant lag between the time that their costs drop and their prices drop. It's a racket, plain and simple.
More of a racket, though, is the cost of oil from OPEC. It costs them something like $4 to make a barrel of oil, and they turn around and sell for $70. That's a 1,750% mark up!! Imagine going to a bookstore and buying a textbook for $1312, and you might get a better picture of the markup. Of course, why Katrina should effect the price of crude is another quesiton, as it's not the supply of crude that's a problem, but the refining of the crude into usable forms that's been affected. Oh well, bottom line is we all know we'll pay whatever they ask us to for gasoline. Sure, some of us my ride the bus a few more times, but when it comes down to it, we'll all keep driving. --nathan |
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People are getting to be like savages when it comes to buying gas. I was waiting in line today at a Citgo and I was next to the gas pump, I went to pull my car in, and some stupid Mexican in a gay-ass lowered truck 2 inches from the ground, whips in front of me. GRRR!!! People are going insane...CALM DOWN FOLKS!
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It's the the price of cigaretts...the tobacco companys know people will continue to buy them no matter what the price is.
Same with gas, they know we need it so they can pretty much set the price at whetever they want. Although, they fail to realize, as I mentioned above, the consequences that come with outragous prices.......drive offs, stealing fuel, robbery etc.... |
Re: Fuel Prices
OPEC and other oil producers pump a finite amount of crude out of the ground. Oil companies do not actually purchase barrels of oil, they purchase futures or the rights to barrels of oil. Just like a stock price, there is more demand to buy the futures which causes a general increase in the futures price. Oil companies are buying these futures at higher prices because there is a finite supply, and they want to make sure they have the rights to the oil they need when they need it. I think that oil is currently over-valued so to speak.
As far as markups, Exxon-Mobil is making approximately 2-3x as much pure profit on a gallon of gasoline as they were prior to their monopoly. Some states like Minnesota have passed laws requiring stations to price their gas at minimum wholesale price markups. Their profit margin is right around $0.60/gallon at the moment. Mr 5 0 is correct about federal and state gas taxes. In Minnesota, they add to $0.40/gallon. In regard to the stations gouging people, the stations also lower their prices as futures fall, albeit not as quickly. Most stations make only $0.05 to $0.10/gallon on fuel sales, and their prices are largely controlled by a single strong position seller in a market. Super America has a nasty reputation for playing pricing games with gas causing pump prices to be quite erradic. Even so, I doubt we hear nearly as much complaining when oil and pump prices drop together, but as soon as they increase together, people start saying the filling stations are gouging. If stations didn't react to a dynamic market, they would literally have to wait until the next tanker showed up to change their prices and they could easily get caught with their pants down resulting in a net loss. It's a crappy position for sure, but the only thing that is logical for us as consumers to do is to buy less. Quit spending money on gas and prices will fall. |
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It's like asking smokers to quit buying cigaretts so that the price will drop......they can't...they need them...there're addicted. |
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The Mad Max scenario you insist will occur any day now is based on your assumption that with gasoline at over $2.00 per gallon, drivers will riot. I think not. Gas is a necessity for most of us and while a $5.00 per gallon price might start riots...$2.50 per gallon won't. Factored for inflation, at $2.00 + a gallon, we are paying the same or very close to what drivers paid per-gallon 30 years ago - and the average car today...even a V-8 Mustang...gets far better gas mileage than a 1975 or earlier car. The fact that...as you said...gasoline is a economic necessity for the people and our economy, the government will not allow it to become so expensive that no one can buy it or if they do, it negatively impacts the economy. This whole problem could be alleviated if the government would drop some of the insane regulations that make building an oil refinery impossible and would allow more off-shore and Artic drilling. The U.S. has plenty of oil reserves underground but environmental-whacko regulations make drilling for it either illegal or financially impractical. That must change. Oil drilling is very sophisticated these days and can easily be done in a way that does not harm the surrounding environment. To have to depend on almost 60% of our oil coming from unstable, foreign countries is ridiculous. More U.S. oil wells and local gas refineries would cut the cost and the ultimate price of gas to U.S. consumers, not to mention the risk of our supplies being held hostage by terrorists or other crazies. One of the problems with how we view the price of gas is in our perceptions. We grew up with gasoline being relatively cheap and so, a 50 cent-per-gallon rise in price over a week is a shock. That's to be expected. However, even at $3.50 per gallon, that price isn't so terribly high and the vast majority of Americans can and will pay it. However, once the distribution problems subside, gas prices will come down, albeit probably never below $2.00 per gallon, as you said. Then again, a cup of coffee - which cost about 50 cents in 1975 - costs $1.50 or more at most diners and coffee shops, today. Few people complain because the price is reasonable when you also compare what people made in salary 30 years ago. It's all relative. While a true gas shortage will certainly make tempers flair and people will get a little crazy, the idea of gasoline someday becoming some kind of super-precious commodity that people will kill for is a giantic stretch of the imagination. Of course, if you still wish to believe that scenario will happen, you are welcome to do so. We all have our fantasies. I simply find it naive and based more on emotional responses and a lack of understanding than reality. |
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Your're forgetting that high gas prices affect everything else.
No, just the fact that gas is $3.50/gallon won't cause riots but factor in the the higher cost to heat homes, prices for goods bought in stores because companys charge more to to ship it there so the store raises their prices to offset the difference. You're not seeing the whole picture. Higher gas prices cause a domino effect on the economy which will cause the stealing, siphoning and crime that I talked about earlier. Just remember, $3+/gallon might still be affordable to most upper class and middle class people but the people who really suffer are the lower class and poor. Maybe the Mad Max syndrome might be a little far fetched but a more realistic prediction would be that someday there won't be a "middle class". You will either be rich or poor. No more "in the middle". The rich continue to get richer and the poor get poorer. I consider myself middle class and I'll be the first to admit that I'm "feeling" these high gas prices. I guess if you're wealthy, judging from your attitude and "matter of fact" responses, you have nothing to worry about. So I guess the people that complain about the current fuel prices are just peons in your eyes...huh? You're probably one of those guys that owns a Hummer and spends $75-$100 a week on fuel and thinks nothing of it. When you pump $25 worth of fuel and only get 7 gallons of gas, that's bullcrap and you know it! |
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[QUOTE]I consider myself middle class and I'll be the first to admit that I'm "feeling" these high gas prices.[/QUOTE} Everyone does. You are not unique. Quote:
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I am not rich and I don't own a Hummer', either. I simply do not share your fears and frustrations because I can figuratively see past the next 24 hours and realize that gas prices are important but that they will not remain where they are and that we are not all going to end up as beggers on the street because gas went up in price. Complaining about the price of gas is a national pasttime and hardly qualifies as something significent that will change America and destroy our way of life, as you seem to think. That is irrational and if you wish to state such things here, expect to be contradicted. |
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Americans do not need a 5500lb Ford Expedition or Dodge Ram 4x4 that gets 13mpg as a commuter car. The SRT10 gets 9, yes, 9mpg in the city according to EPA estimates. 9 friggen miles per gallon.
Another thing. Americans live 20, 50, even 100 miles away from where they work. If the citizens can't afford gas, it's time for a lifestyle change. I ride my motorcycles more. I live 3.5mi away from where I work and put less than 8000mi/yr on my Explorer, which gets between 17-24mpg. All city in the winter, 17. A mix is right around 19-20, and the freeway it gets about 23-24. 9mpg. That's ridiculous. Cars today getting 15mpg. About the same as my dad's old 1978 Lincoln Town Car with the 460ci V-8. 22ft long and 5000lbs with a 7.6L V-8 using 30 year old technology. I do agree that the middle class is being exterminated as the gap between the rich and the poor accelerates. |
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Don't hold your breathe for the suspension of gas taxes. I'll be an old man before that happens.
You're the first person who seem to be ok with the current fuel prices and believes that the prices will fall a significant amount after production picks up again. Like I said, it's just not the price of gas, it's everything else that continues to go up while our paychecks stay the same. That is what frustrates most Americans. The economy has been a wreck for years now, regardless of what they tell you on TV, and probably will be for years to come. Do you think Bush really cares about the economy especially after he will be out of office in two years? You're very optimistic. I'll grant you that much. I'm not freaking out about the gas prices. I'm just slowly learning how the goverment really works. |
Economics, gas prices and the government
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I would love to be paying under $2.00 per gallon, just like you or anyone else. I would also love to be able to buy a new Mustang for the same price I paid for my '90 LX when I bought it new (about $14,000.) Neither one is going to happen. While I hate paying $40. for a fill-up that used to cost $25. a few short months ago I do not believe the price will remain at that high level and I see no point in getting all frenzied over it because that won't change anything...and I still have to have gas, just like anyone else. Quote:
I understand that having the cost of a necessary expense like gas suddenly go up 40 to 50% in a week or two is shocking and the first response tends to be anger born of frustration because you don't understand it and can't change it. That's natural. However, even at our generally low inflation rate, certain things will jump in price at various times for various reasons. Gas, being something most people use and need, is simply a more obvious manifestation of the natural cycle of supply and demand. Quote:
Over 4 million new jobs have been created in the past two years, 2.2 million in the past 12 months. The U.S. unemployment rate is down to a record low (5%). Overall, the U.S. economy is growing at well over 3%, annually, a very robust rate of growth. New home sales are way up as are sales of durable goods and retail, so the myth that thely created jobs are simply 'burger-flipper' or Wal-Mart jobs is nonsense. You don't buy a new home at today's prices on a Wal-Mart or McDonald's paycheck. That's what they don't 'tell you on TV'..because most of the news organizations, except Fox, are anti-Bush and don't want him to receive any credit for the economy...unless it's bad. THEN, they trumpet that bad news for days on end and are sure to link it directly to President Bush, as if he could single-handedly 'make' the economy be either good or bad. The media bias against Republicans and President Bush, specifically, is as contemptable as it is transparent. The U.S. is one of the most prosperous nations in the world today and our economy is in very good shape, the best in some years. Even our ''poor' live far better than most people in countries that are realistically poor. If you are hurting economically I am sorry but foolishly blaming 'the government' and the president is simply ridiculous and demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of economic reality. Quote:
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The jobs being created are low paying. More people work than ever before, taking jobs they don't want because they don't have a choice.
Arguing home sales as a legitimate benchmark of the economy's situation is pretty weak. The fact is interest rates were ridiculously low, resulting in the ability to afford a more expensive house with less income. This in turn created a huge inflation in house prices, and just like stocks in the late 90's, people have become obsessed with getting on board the real estate gravy train. The same low interest rates spurred a huge balloon in household debt as people have been relying more than ever on credit to buy the things they want, rather than the things they can truly afford. Many people took advantage of the low interest rates and refinanced, stripping the equity out of their houses to buy these "durable goods." Foreclosures are up, and they will be increasing drastically in the next 2-3 years as people that purchased all they could afford and a little more will have to refinance their 3 year ARMs. This will result in a decline, yes decline, in housing prices across many metropolitan areas in the United States. As Greenspan has indicated, people are way too obsessed with the idea real estate will guarantee them a huge paycheck. Debt consolodation has become big business, and credit card lobbiests have succeded in getting favorable legislation passed to remove the lender's responsibility to only lend appropriate amounts of money to people in this country. All this in the face of a huge and continually growing budget deficit which hurts the value of the money people in this country are actually earning. The increase in per capita GDP over the past few years is largely attributable to the double digit increases in executive compensation. CEO's now make 500x more than the base workers wage in the company. That's 10x more than any other nation in the world. With executive pay usually based on CEO payscales, it's a wonder average GDP is increasing. Basically, the US economy IS screwed right now, but ridiculously low interest rates and tax breaks are artificially painting a pretty picture. Just like traditional value indicators in the stock market have been thrown to the wind, the traditional indicators for the economic status are void. Bush has done a horrible job, and it's painfully obvious at this point. Only a fool would be so stubborn and arrogant to continue defending him. Even so, it's not like there were viable options to vote for in the last election anyway. It's six of one, and a half dozen of the other. The republican party has become every bit as worthless as the democrats. Together, they have run this country, and the hopes and dreams of millions of American citizens straight into the ground, betraying the trust of the citizens at every turn. Whether it's the partisan bullshit keeping progress out of the capital or simply catering to each party's personal special interests, our representatives has become the most corrupt and sickening force in the world. |
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Mr 5.0 , you're right, after readingUNITS last post, I do have a lack of understanding how the goverment works.
Having said that, his statement is more credible than what you're trying to say. All the higher paying jobs are going to China and these "new jobs" being created are just like unit said...burger flippers, wal-mart, etc If you look around and open your eyes, you will notice that more and more middle class Americans, including myself, are being forced to take second jobs in order to "stay ahead". So, yes, the economy is in the shitter! Just because YOU can afford $100/week in fuel doesn't mean the economy is "ok". I admit I don't know everything about how the economy or goverment works but what is even more scary is the fact that you, and others like you, say "All is well" I guarantee that you are not the type of person who comes home from work everyday with your hands dirty. I don't have to be versed on how the economy works....all I need to do is live from day to day to know the economy sucks! Open you eyes, get your head out of your ass and take a look around you and then say "All is doing well" I bet you can't! |
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The economy is sound and the yield on the 10-year Treasury Note is 4 times the Feds benchmark of 1%. People see a sound economy, the Bush tax cuts put more money in our collective pockets and, despite the protestations of you and others, jobs are paying well and people are feeling more secure with their jobs, considering the almost record-low unemployment rate. That, and the fact that everybody wants to own their own home, for obvious emotional as well as financial reasons. Quote:
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Corporations that pay their executives tens of millions in compensation and do not perform well will eventually go out of business, in most cases. As almost all major corporations are owned by shareholders, which tend to be 'working people', the executive raises are no secret and are also subject to questioning and eventual approval - or disapproval - by a corporate board - that can also be voted out by disgruntled shareholders who feel their stock is underperforming due to executive or board mismanagement. To claim that a few thousand people (corporate executives) getting big salaries and perks somehow raise the annual GDP is a bit farfetched, to be kind about it. The comparison of executive to worker pay is an old one that anti-business people like to use because the numbers look startling. However, the fact that a guy doing an average job today for less than 8 hours and making the average pay of around $40,000. per year and a corporate executive running a major company and putting in 60 or 70 hours a week with enormous pressures makes the comparison a poor one, albeit handy to use for shock value to the uninformed. Quote:
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As for President Bush, he has done an outstanding job of bringing us back from a recession not of his making (but for which the left constantly blamed him). The 2002 tax bill that lowered the tax rates was necessary and just in time. It is showing it's benefits now as the economy expands, investors invest and the federal budget deficit shrinks due to increased tax revenues coming in from the increased wealth being generated. That you wave all this away as a 'bubble' is your option but I think it is wholly mistaken. Quote:
Tens of millions of Americans would disagree with that assessment - and they would be right. Any economy is fragile - as we saw after 9/11 - and subject to many alterations and swings but ours is healthy and doing well. That you can't agree is fine...the economy will surge along with or without your approval, but your gloom-and-doom outlook is based on a lot of false asumptions and conclusions, in my opinion. However, that's why we have these boards...so people can express their opinions. I'll let others decided who's opinion they prefer but I'm very confident with my mine. |
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My eyes are fully open and I see a lot of folks buying $40,000. SUV's, $3,000. plasma TV's and other indicators of affluence. That they work harder to pay for them is a tribute to materialism, misguided as that may be at times, it keeps the economy humming. If you are finding it necessary to take a second job, prehaps you should look at your expenses and also at your career prospects. You may be simply trying to live above your means or are not making enough to buy what you want without working a second job. Those are the results of personal decisions which we all make. Don't just blame 'the economy'. Quote:
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If you are not doing well, financially, of course the economy looks 'bad' - to you. There is an old joke that goes like this: When your neighbor gets laid off the economy is in a recession. When you get laid off it's in a depression. In other words, our views of the state of the economy tend to be relative to our own position in it. I am not wealthy but I do grasp the fact that while our economy is far from perfect, it is also just as far from the disaster you and Unit 5302 claim. I won't say that 'all' is well as that would be impossible. In a vast economy and a nation with almost 300 million people, there will always be areas of the country and people who are not doing well, at all. However, on balance, the U.S. economy is doing well, overall. I regret that you fail to see that and I despair of showing you otherwise as you are clearly wedded to your pessmistic view, as is Unit 5302. So be it. I tried - and I enjoyed the opportunity to explain a few things, even if they fell on deaf ears, or, more accurately, blind eyes. Whatever. :) I wish you well. |
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82GT, I am not insinuating the high paying jobs are leaving the US. They aren't. They're staying here, and they're paying more than ever. It's lower middle class to middle class jobs that are leaving. That being said, there are a lot of financial, technical and service jobs that are considered at-risk to move in the future.
It's true, you do know little about how the economy and government work. Mr 5 0 has legitimate points as he almost always does, and quite frankly, he's just plain right about some things. You're ill-equipped to argue micro or macro economics. I'm not insulting you, I'm just saying that it's probably not at the top of your list to learn about it so you haven't, and you just don't know too much about the inner workings of it all. Mr 5 0, we both know the president has little control over the US economy. The majority if the economy is controlled through the Federal Reserve Bank, and the Federal Reserve Bank has controlled the inflation, and interest rates allowing people to borrow so much. Alan Greenspan pretty much controls the economy. Granted, the president can influence congress regarding federal government expenditures and tax revenues, he is hardly a main component of the economy. Workers today are earning less per hour, but they are working many more hours. The average middle class couple with children now works over 3,900hrs a year. That's 37.5hrs per week, each. Considering there are still about 46% of couples that only have one person income, the adjusted average worked hours would be 50hrs per week. People are working more to try and balance their budgets. The durable goods you keep citing are being driven by the upper middle class and weathly who have the most expendable income, and of course, by ballooning debt ratios for consumers. People are spending themselves into giant holes they from which they cannot crawl out. The average household credit card debt alone has now increased to over $12,000. Add in interest only ARM mortgages and 60-72mo automotive loans and it paints a pretty ugly picture in regard to the average middle class family disposable income. Foreclosures are already nearing 1.25%, and bankruptcy filings have increased by a factor of 2 in the last 10 years. Bottom line is that the middle class don't have any disposable income to be making the purchases you're pointing to unless they're borrowing to against their future to aquire these goods. While you can certainly point to the traditional market indicators such as home sales and durable goods purchases, I will point to the PE Ratio and how that traditional indicator has become far less useful in determining the market value of a security. |
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Also, I never said I wasn't doing well. Where did that come from.....because I have two jobs???? My reasons for another job are not because of the economy. I was just saying that there are others who are forced to take second jobs because of the economy. So, who's judging whom here? Yes, I'm complaining about fuel prices because I know darn well that they don't need to be that high. |
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He works for an insurance comany, just like me the last time I checked. Not that it matters much, anyway, since anybody can take the time to learn about how the economy and government work.
It's kinda like trying to figure out whether or not a car enthusiast knows what they're saying when they're giving advice on camshaft specifications by where they work. :) |
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I'm going to bow out here because this is only going to turn into a "debat-a-thon" if I don't. I despise Mr. 5.0's superiorority complex he seems to have about people who do not have as much of an understanding of the goverment/economy as he claims to have or who work two jobs. That's ignorance personified right there! That's another thing wrong with America today...too many people that think their shit doesn't stink. |
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if u think about it, cause gas went up, everything else will go up as well. such as mail, shipping and handeling, food...and everything that has to be transported by a fuel powered machine. pretty much everything. u think the companies are just gonna leave the prices of their products the same and pay the extra money for the gas, NOPE, why would they. so as gas goes up, so does everything else. and our economy drops drastically cause people cant afford to buy the things they used to. and while all of this goes on, we still have SOO much oil sittin right under us in the US that were not aloud to touch in hopes of saving it for later times where we might need it more....
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The prices of goods will undoubtedly increase somewhat due to the temporary artificial inflation caused by increased fuel costs. That being said, the increase in fuel costs is temporary, and refineries are already coming back online. Interestingly enough, the damage doesn't appear to be as severe as the oil companies initially indicated. It seems as though they may getting a little political pressure to keep their ducks in a row so to speak.
Anyway, as the Federal Reserve is likely to indicate at their next meeting, this is a temporary production issue rather than a supply issue, and I expect interest rates to rise another 1/4 pt at the end of this month. Oil futures have already dropped about $5/bbl, and countries like Kuwait have pledged millions in free oil. Average gasoline prices declined over the past 24hrs from an all time high of $3.06 to $3.04/gallon for regular unleaded. Now that the Labor Day weekend is over, people are actively watching their fuel consumption, and refineries are coming back online I expect fuel prices may fall. I'm still concerned about the price of oil futures, and I'm having difficulty understanding why they are so high. Many Natural Resource Portfolio's are up 40% year to date. A ridiculous return. |
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Now I know we're done here. |
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Translation: We agree that we disagree :) |
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Well down here in Ga we had a gas shortage for a few days and it got up to 6 bucks a gallon. but now were all good because our state government has taken the state tax out of the cost of the gas soo its like 2.50 a gallon. WHOO HOO!
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we got gas in washington state yesterday at 2.92 and they say its been dropping for the past week and think its gonna keep going doing some more too. i liked the sounds of that :D
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Supply and demand.
While there are a lot of factors that go into the pump price for a gallon of gas, a better-flowing supply, which we are beginning to experience, will always help hold down prices somewhat, although never as low as we would all like. However, we need to realize that a gallon of gas costs 60 cents in 1975 and, with inflation factored in, that price translates to about 2.20 per gallon, today and it's going into cars that routinely get much better gas mileage that a '75 (or older) heavyweight with a bigger displacement engine, a carb and less efficient emissions equipment. So, while gas prices are still a little high, they are not ridiculously high and any reasonable person can see that, once you past the initial shock of seeing prices jump, temporarily, by almost a dollar-per-gallon in a week or less. That crisis is passing and gas prices will be coming back down, just as I predicted, so all the angst was for nothing. |
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I've watched this argument for many years now. It always goes the same way. Yes there are side tracks that some folks take in order to fix blame on this politician or that one but it's always the same. Poor lil us and our plight with the big oil companies.
You want gas prices to go down? Stop driving so much. Don't hand me the crap about the kid down the block who can't afford to commute to his job at Mikkey Dee's since gas costs so much. There's a McDonalds on every other corner and the thought that someone has to commute hundreds of miles a week to get to one is a load of hogwash. Young people as a rule blow through gas like it's like the air we breathe. . . free for the taking. For more than 40 years now the federal and state governments have been legislating us into this mess we're in right now and the voters who keep these idiots in office are more to blame than the idiots themselves. The problem in this country with high gas prices has nothing to do with the price of crude oil. Most oil companies in this world produce as much crude oil and they buy. It's a kind of break even for most of the bigger companies. I've heard all sorts of schemes on how we should all only buy gas on even days, or only on Tesdays and Thursdays. Everything in the book to bring the majors to their knees. Forget it! All you're going to do there is postpone the inevitable. If you don't buy gas on 5 of the 7 days that are in a week, all you do is leave the gas station attendants with some clean-up time 5 days a week. They buy gas in big tankfulls, they can go for a couple of weeks without you buying their gas and it will have no affect whatsoever on any oil company no matter how far up the food chain they are. Let's boycott Mobile gas stations. All you do there is punsih the owner/operator who just paid a rediculous price for the gas he can't sell now and pretty soon, we've run his mangy butt out of business. One more station for the major oil companies to take over or replace with one of their corporate minimarts. You folks in California??? Congratulations. You've spent decades trying to get rid of the giant polluting oil refineries and now guess what? You've got the highest prices in the nation. Not just now but forever. San Diego typically has the highest gas prices in the nation. Wanna guess why? Because you people legislated yourselves into it! How many refineries have we as a country built in the last 80 years? I'm not talking about state sponsored construction, I'm talking about refineries that have been built by Americans on American soil? Not one! How many have we shut down in that same time frame? Hundreds! IT's easy for our government jackasses in state and federal houses of congress to legilate the latest anti-polluting laws on refiners. Unfortunately, ALL of the smaller refiners who didn't have the extra 10 million bucks in the bank to bring their refineries up to snuff had to either close down or, as is the case in most, they sellout to the bigger oil companies who have the deeper pockets and can afford the midifications. Unfortunately, any time a small oil company is taken over, more than 80 percent of their small refineries are sold for scrap bacause even the big guys have a limit to the amount of money they can throw at old technology. By now you may start to suspect I work for an oil company. Yes I do. I've done so for 25 years now and hopefully will continue to do so for another 10 years or so. One ot the two refineries along the gulf coast that cannot start up for a few months is one of ours. We're looking at anohter 3 months before production can resume. There are over 700 additional people on site as we speak trying feverishly to get it back up and running. Every day the plant is down is costing the company 8.8 million dollars in lost opportunities. This is just lost sales. This doesn't even include the cost of tearing the entire plant down to clear the salt water and the 700 contractors they had to hire to do the work. The bottom line is that we as a country are depending on a fraction of the refineries we once had to do the work of twice that number could do 40 years ago. We cannot build new refineries. . . period and that, coupled with our exhorbitant driving habits is why gas prices are so high. You want gas prices to come down? Stop driving so much. Lose those gas guzzling hogs we drive and stop driving to a store two blocks away when it would do all of us good to walk that far once in a while. I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I drive an Avalanche that takes a hunnert dollar bill to fill up now and I'm building a Mustang right now that I'm sure will eat more gas than the truck but guess what. . .I'm not moaning and groaning and yes, my gas costs just as much as yours does. Oil companies raise gas prices in times like these for many reasons and yes profit is one. Another is that they are trying to slow the depletion of a resource they can see is going to be in short supply for a while. Another still is the amount of money they stuff back into finding more crude and designing ways to make the refineries we have more efficient and productive. Legislation killed the refining capacity in this country. You want to blame someone? Go hang a politician who keeps voting to keep us out of areas where the oil is just to save a mud flat where virtually nothing lives. "but it's a wilderness" the argument goes. How many of you have ever gone to the Northern end of Alaska to visit the swamp there? That's what I thought. Stern words? Yup! I've seen first hand how the government and liberal tree huggers have destroyed any hopes we have of lowering gas prices and it makes me sick to see so many people aiming their frustrations in the wrong direction. Want to hear something hikarious? Does the government realize that they have done this to us? You bet they do. Right now, due to the mess Katrina made, Congress is trying to pass legislation that will allow refiners to forgo the clean gasoline restrictions until the refining shortage is over. They know damn well they have caused this mess and this little stop gap measure won't help much at all. You see, to go back to making gasoline with a little higher sulfur content, they'd have to "unbuild" the newer technology that they threw away after the previous legislation Congress passed. What better way for our government to force refiners to spend more money at the whim of some politician in Washington. That will sure make gas prices go back down huh? Want to get some of that money back? Right now the oil field is rife with work for people wanting to actually work. I mean back-breaking, noisy, dirty work that pays a kid out of high school close to a hundred thousand dollars a year. It's not glamorous and you won't learn anything that will get you a white collar job later but it's there and it's going to be for some years to come. We're in another oil and gas boom right now folks. It's going to take years to reach the level of oil and gas production in this country to match what we are using every day. Remember who you voted for come next election. Are they part of the poroblem or part of the solution? |
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I promised myself I was finished with this thread but after reading the previous post, I though I would add my 2 cents once again.
Mr.50 , I honestly see your point when you mention the inflation factor. I makes sense. MEDIK , your theory also makes sense BUT...here's what's wrong with it. You say stop driving so much but the goverment buys tons of barrels of crude oil for the reserves, which, at the time, we had plenty of. This, in turn, keeps the demand for fuel high no matter how much Americans conserve fuel. Second, the people with the large, expensive SUV's, don't give two shits about how much they pay for fuel. If you can afford these large, gas guzzling vehicles, you can certainly afford to drop a $100 into the tank. Mentality like that also keeps the demand high. Think about it....if you're a wealthy person are you really going to care that you have to spend an extra $20-$25 at the pumps.....no...of coarse not. I wouldn't. For your theory to work, everyone that owns a gas powered vehical, would have to cut back on their driving habbits and that is not going to happen with mentality like that. I'm not crying about fuel prices because I can't afford it but I would like to have the extra money for other stuff. I would like to contribute more to my 401K but with everything on the rise, it makes it that much more difficult. |
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The 100 octane unleaded turbo blue I run in my Mach1 has managed to stay at the same $3.89 that it was at the beginning of last year...
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Theory? It's not a theory that we are running on one tenth the number of refineries we were in 1970. There wasn't a shortage then and there's none now. The plant I work in is running at maximum but our tanks are as full now as they were a month ago. The summer rush had more to do with inventories than Katrina did. Yes, there were spot shortages while the big pipelies were down but that should have corrected itself by now. And it has according to gas prices. Remember. . . .oil companies jack prices up in an attempt to make us drive less and use less gas bacause they forsee an opportunity for shortages later on down the road. It should be a harbinger of things to come, not a reason to gripe and blame politicians. Let's address government stockpiles of crude oil. Do you actually know how much they have for us? Not even a day's worth of crude, that's how much. If you turned off the wells, the tankers coming from Russia, and the middle east, they government stockpile wouldn't last a day. It's a joke. The only reason they keep them around is that it makes politicians warm and fuzzy thinking that they have us convinced that we're safe relying on the spare oil they stocked up on. It's a joke. I'm not making this up, look in the business section of your local newspaper. It tells right there in black and white how much crude oil we go through each and every day of our lives and it makes the federal government look awful stupid when you consider how much oil is in this so-called government reserve. The only affect that releasing the oil they said they were going to was the same affect that 9/11 had on the price of gas. People THOUGHT there was going to be a shortage so they went into a panic-buying frenzy and caused spot shortages across the country. This time, with Katrina, the government said they were going to release some oil and people relaxed a little. The jobbers realized the panic was about over and prices started going down. It happens every time there's a hiccup in the oil industry nowadays. Here's a little lesson to mull over. The plant I work at suffered through a series of really bad luck events beginning in January. Failed airfins, an explosion, a couple of fires. . .all contributed to our not being able to produce ANYTHING for 123 days. That was 144,000 barrels of crude that didn't get processed every day we were down. Did you see a jump in gas prices? Nope! not a one. Why? Because the press didn't get wind of it that's why. The good ole news media didn't have the opportunity to put America in a panic like they so love to do. We're so far back in the sticks, they didn't find out about us. Now, let's talk about the people with the large SUVs who don't give a crap about how much we pay for gas. Your theory is full of bugjuice. Like I said, I drive one and I've had to shut down a lot of driving lately. My son who has a 120mile commute (one way) has opted to live in the town he works in for the 7 days he has to be there (7 on and 7 off) Why? Because we pay the same price for gas as everyone else and it hurts us just as much as the next guy. I've gone from driving about 3 tankfulls out every month to one. That's with two of us driving it to work. I've ressurected an old Suzuki 750 to get to work in a week or so. We look for ways to consolidate errands to make the most of the gas we have. I'm not sure how much you think a person has to make for a living to buy one of these things but it's not much more than most small cars on the market these days. (Besides that, California has more little cars running around the state than anyone and they use more gas than most other states.) I drive it because I like the room and yes, I choose to pay the penalty for doing so at the pump but don't tell me I don't hurt every time I fill up. You don't have a monopoly on cash limits here. I've got a Mustang in the driveway that's a clutch and a X-pipe away from being finished enough to drive but guess what? I spent most of the extra money on gas last month. I still stand by what I said. You want to slow the price of gas down a bit? Stop driving so much. EVERYONE. If theres' no market for the stuff, it won't be worth as much. Another thing, next time there's a calamity like the one that happened to the Gufl coast, dont' cause the prices to shoot shy high by lining up at the pump in block long lines to get the last drop of gas before the next truckload shows up. This kind of crap feeds the media like a school of sharks. One front page headline with a picture of the morons sitting in line for gas is usually all it takes for the gasoline distributors to start seeing dollar signs. Why do I say this? Because I know several of them and they love this stuff. It would take weeks for an event like that to start affecting the gasoline and oil reserves in this country. OK, forget I mentioned reserves, insert the word inventories for that. Anyway, I don't mean for this to be mean spirited but I'm sick of the lies that the national media is telling about anything that affects this country and on this subject, I can shed a little light. I've been in this business for over 25 years now and I laugh every time I see a story on the gas crisis. Not because of the effects but becasue of the lies I see in the news over it. Think of how many personal owned vehicles we have in this country. Millions upon millions. Think how much gas we would save for another day if each of those vehicles drove just 2 percent less each week. I don't have the answer buy can bet it would make a big dent in the price of gas in this country. Till then, I can promise that there are a lot of folks out there who are doing all they can to make as much gas as they possibly can with the equipment they have to work with and they'll continue to do so as long as we can. |
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I've never met or talked to a person working for an oil company that wasn't brutally patriotic about their company or their industry. They always have a dozen really lame-o reasons why they're not to blame. How it's the government's fault. How it's the consumer's fault. How it's OPEC's fault. It's never the oil company's fault, though.
Comparing the costs today vs 20 years ago looks good on paper until you start seeing things like Exxon Mobil recording a $10 billion profit last quarter.... That's more than any company in the history of the world. The oil companies ARE price gouging. There is no competition in the industry since the monopolistic merger of Exxon and Mobil. The companies in that industry are recording record profits for their industry, and in the case of the aforementioned Exxon-Mobil, in any industry in the history of the planet. The comment that oil companies jack up the price to control our driving habits is ludicrious, and simply insulting. They jack up the price because they know our driving habits, and how to take advantage of them. Refineries routinely go down in this country. Having one or two down isn't uncommon. Especially around or just before a typical driving holiday. That creates a theoretical shortage and voila, a reason to jack up prices. I've seen it used on several holiday's especially Memorial Day and Labor Day. The argument that you can find a good job just around the corner is positively uninformed. Many states in this country have urban sprawl models in place that limit the expansion of business into the suburbs or away from the existing major metropolitan areas. With housing costs rising in the 10-20% range for the majority of the US metro areas, it creates great pressure to move further away from the major employers and commute further to work. It's not the federal government keeping the oil industry down by not allowing more drilling in North America. It's the federal government pumping billions of dollars of tax breaks and grants into the industry as a political kick back in turn for the soft money under the table that our politicians get from big oil. The lame attempt at passing the buck along is just the average joe in this country speaking. Most people can't take responsibility for anything, and they simply pass the blame along. As if oil companies aren't a major part of the problem. Whatever. |
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I believe we have some 200 million vehicles on the road today and our driving population has also gone way up in the past 25 years. Something no one seems to take into account when talking about the availability and price of gas. Glad you brought it up. The fact that the morons who instantly top off their gas tanks at the slightest indication of some possible slowing of the gas flow to the pumps has always been a problem, as far back as the 1973 gas 'crisis'. Nothing has changed and the media is as guilty as ever of promoting the 'panic' over gas 'shortages', then making alarmist noises (interviewing grumpy people complaining about the price of gas) when the price inevitably goes up. That so few folks seem to see the correlation between panic buying , some actual gas shortages - and the rise in price is a given. I doubt this will change, but thanks for the attempt to shed some light on the subject from the point of view of one working inside the oil industry, the medias favorite whipping boy, right after President Bush. BTW: formatting is your friend. It just reads so much easier. |
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MEDIK418 has brought out some very good, factual points surrounding the price of gas...as well as the cost of gas that cannot be waved away as simply loyality to the business he's employed in. Not if you are going to be honest and not give in to knee-jerk, anti-capitalist reflexes or buy into the media demonization of 'big oil' as inherently 'evil'. I trust this will not be the case here. Quote:
The fact that, adjusted for inflation, we now pay only a bit more for gas than dad did years ago is a significent factor in understanding the reality of the cost - and the price - of gas. That it undercuts your contentions is probably why you are eager to dismiss it but it remains a fact. Quote:
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However, if government were less involved with the oil business, taxed the product a bit less (fat chance) and didn't place insane restrictions on building refinaries and drilling in frozen wastelands, it would benefit everyone. Unfortunately, that is not the case. So, the oil companies use their largess to influence politicians, as any government-regulated business has been doing for a hundred years. Take the politicians out of the game and the oil companies won't be sending millions to Washington, D.C. every year - because they wouldn't have to. Until then, the oil companies play the hand they are dealt. That we still have an abundent supply of affordable gasoline under the conditions MEDIK418 described is a testimony to the oil companies inventiveness and a temporary spike in gas prices is hardly a reason to demonize them once again, as the media and the anti-business crowd has done. However, this is an old game, promoted by the (mostly) anti-business media and so, will be going on a very long time. I'm still pleased have gasoline readily available at an affordable price, even if some folks think they should be getting their gas at 1995 prices. Of course, these same folks don't see anything wrong in selling the home they bought in 1995 for three times the price they paid for it. Noooo. That's just 'taking advantage of the market'...when they do it. But let gas prices rise by 30 or 40%, even temporarily, it's 'gouging' and a 'rip-off'. Whatever. ;) |
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Thank you Mr. 5.0 for the assist. I was taught long ago that if you want to write, then start writing. Don't think just write. Before you get too far, if you're truly passionate about the subject it will begin to make sense. I have to do this at midnight and only have about 15 minutes to do it. Thus, wysiwyg.
I will address some of the comments unit 5302 made. tomorrow evening. I will try to keep myself reigned in but he made some comments I would like to dispute. One thing I will say tonight though. I will never make an excuse for the prices oil companies are charging for gas right now. I think it's insane and in some cases downright criminal. I will however try to explain how some of the prices, and I'm referring to our everyday high prices got to where they are. Some won't believe it but I promise to be as truthful as I can be. |
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praise God we live in the USA. supply and demand. i would rather be at the mercey of an industry then have hillary setting the price of my fuel. fact is i dont believe in price setting or our subsidation of foriegn oil, or any other commodity for that matter. capitolism is what made this nation great, not fed control, state control, or any other socialist notions.
Fact: fuel is expensive fact: oil companies are in it for the money fact: if it dont make dollars it dont make sense change your habits or dont. the idea of blaming a corp that is in buisness to make money for making money is a bit .... at a loss for words. besides with a pressure cooker and copper tube we could make our own fuel. if you can replace floor pans, retrofit drivetrains, etc. you can make ethyl. end of rant. |
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So what? So what if big companies make big profits? That's not the point here. Capping profit is inherently against the concept of capitalism. So is the lack of competition, which in a capitalist environment can easily lead to corporate greed and price fixing.
The point is the profit has literally increased between 300%-600% since the merger of Exxon-Mobil. Their gas stations are not responsible for the dramatic increase in profitability. Microsoft is a very poor example of a fine and upstanding company since they've been attacked in court and defeated for anti-trust violations. Even though I feel Microsoft has made it to its position largely by producing products very few people in the industry actually want or can compete with, growing their products and technology since the inception of the company. On the other hand, Exxon-Mobil was created out of a merger between two giant corporations, allowed by the federal government despite significant risk to market competition. I don't know why you keep attempting to go back to the inflation argument. It has almost nothing to do with my complaint. I'm not complaining about the price of oil or gas in itself. I'm complaining about the price of gas that is directly related to the profit the oil companies are making, which also throws out your argument about gas taxes. While profits would need to increase with inflation in order to continue the same adjusted profit, that's hardly reason for a 300-600% increase over the past few years or an 80% increase in the last reported quarter. I maintain that oil companies do not raise prices to control consumption, and that any person making that argument is naive. I would also wager that the oil companies have not raised their profit component enough at any one period to discourage consumption as that may begin to impact their profitability curve. Onto government regulation..... Our government, led by a president with huge ties to oil companies decided to give billions of dollars of new tax breaks to the industry. Our government allowed a merger to create the world's second largest oil company despite the great concern of many analysts and consumers. Our goverment hints at an investigation of gas prices, and suddenly prices plummet for a few days quieting the unrest as prices slowly edge back up. You raising this issue is a bit like a prosecutor objecting to an admission of guilt. Don't get condescending with me. I'm not arguing that people that choose to live further from work shouldn't do so without considering the consequences. I live 3.5mi from my job and own two motorcycles which I use to commute frequently for a reason. Okay, I admit, I own the motorcycles for recreational purposes, but I have begun commuting much more frequently with them because it's so much cheaper. I realize $100/mo may mean little to the majority, but it does mean something to quite a few people that aren't just making minimum wage or working part time. I'm sure a lot of people that are significantly impacted by the price of fuel are thinking "If I buy another car, that'll fix my budget issue." What do you suppose the average household making $40-60k/yr has for expendible income at the end of the month? Most people I work with have household incomes of around $80k/yr or so. From their net paychecks probably 35% is used to pay for the mortgage, 15% is used to pay for childcare, 15% goes for the car payment, 15% pays for food, leaving 20% of their maybe $52k take home for all other payments. By the time all the bills are paid, that $100 change may be a 10% impact on expendible income. Now, that being said, my model is probably a little conservative with more money being left over, but not every family makes $80k/yr. Love the shareholder argument. Tell me what percentage of people can invest in a natural resources portfolio within their 401k plan? Seriously. How many average middle class or lower income people have investments in traditionally risky companies? Exxon-Mobil is buying back $5 billion of stock per quarter, and that where the stock is. The company, its employees and especially its high level executives. Of course, there are also a lot of very wealthy shareholders that also like the stock to go up. Few shareholders are middle class non-employee's. I'm not sure why you were coming after me. My problem is not necessarily with the points MEDIK418 made, but rather with the points he didn't make. He addressed that in his last post, and I'm satisfied. As for your points, I don't see as they are necessarily relevent to my complaint or even correct under close examination. |
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dammmmm bloodsuckers
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Every time gas prices go up sharply members of congress and the public demand an investigation. They usually get it and no 'gouging' is ever found, no matter who does the investigating. Quote:
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Mr.5 0 , I'm going to venture a guess that you were on the high school debate team :)
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Stale. Simply because you have no way to actually debate me, this is becoming stale is it? After making it more than abundantly clear what my main issue was with the cost of gasoline, you simply ignored it and continued babbling on about irrelevent material. Perhaps you were hoping that innundating myself and other members with naive opinions and unrelated debate topics would present a more powerful position than what you actually had. For most people, you probably did. Changing the subject is what many politicans do when they're beat. You're not a very gracious loser, are you? Well then, since you have nothing relevent to my points that you'd like to address, I'm going to leave this political game. |
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