Fuel Prices

[Unit 5302]

Well, it's not really fair to put in a vote nearly 1 year after the last comment whoever you are. Especially since average price has peaked over $3.00/gallon already.

Oil companies have fanned the flames of speculators, allowing oil prices to continue to surge. Add in the shutdown of the Alaska oil pipeline due to "corrosion" which must have come on suddenly for it not to be noticed until now... right when prices are already at an all time high, and we have a lovely combination of price gouging, price fixing, insider trading and market tampering. All highly illegal, but with an oil tycoon connected President, and unmotivated regulatory bodies, Americans should keep practicing the ankle grab. I still find it amazing that their is always a good reason prices are so high these days. For the past few years, big oil has been able to point the finger somewhere else. Hurricane Katrina, the Iraq War, mysterious refinery issues, high consumer demand, lack of the correct formulations. Seems like they've had an unending string of events that just keep happening to make sure gas prices don't fall, and amazingly enough, record profits are recorded every year, if not every quarter...

Gas prices are a large part of why the federal reserve was unable to justify an additional interest rate hike, which given the rest of the economies situation was warranted.

I'm actually quite surprised US auto manufacturers haven't been outspoken about the current fuel prices considering their slumping sales and recent focus on R&D for the waning truck market.

[Mr 5 0]

I see old threads and old arguments really do 'never die'. Very well. My turn at bat.


Unit, please don't tell us you buy into the lame 'conspiracy theory' that gas companies constantly collude to raise prices, screw the consumer, possibly lead the economy into a recession - and it's all connected to the fact that George W. Bush was once a part of the oil business? That would be absurd. You must know better.

Do you wish to deny that hurricane Katrina greatly damaged oil supplies from the Louisiana/Gulf area last year, or was Katrina another Bush 'conspiracy'?

Are you aware that:

India and China, with their recently ramped-up factory production as well as a huge and newly affluent (well, relatively affluent) population have been making unprecedented demands on the world's oil resources?

That there are more cars on the road in America (as well as in China and India) than ever before - and, in the U.S., a lot of them are large, heavy SUV's with big engines that consume more gas than the vehicle they may have replaced -or- in the case of China and India, cars that get terrible gas mileage due to the old technology that powers them?

That there has not been a new oil refinery built in the U.S. for 30 years, making the availability of gasoline finite and so, near-impossible for the supply of gasoline to keep up with the growing demand and that when supply cannot meet demand the price goes up, no matter what the commodity is?


Fortunately, while we all rightly moan about high gas prices and the internet buzzes with 'conspiracy theories' that the eeeeevil oil companies are simply screwing everyone and President Bush is somehow behind it all, the reality is that higher gas prices were almost inevitable, speculators are a big part of the problem and, so far, higher gas prices have not had a major impact on the strong U.S. economy, but they could, eventually.

Then, along with the howling from consumers (us) and scare stories in the left-wing media (blaming Bush, of course) we'll get yet another congressional investigation - as predictable as ticks in the summer - with lots of oil-company bashing by table-pounding, grandstanding poiliticians pretending they can 'do something' when all they can really do is make things worse, as they did in the '70's with stupid government-mandated 'price freezes' on gasoline, which led to severe shortages and huge inconveniences for all drivers as well as having a negative impact on the U.S. economy.

When the ineluctable congressional investigation into the rise in gas prices ends, months later, to absolutely no publicity at all, the conclusion will be, as it has been in previous investigations, that higher prices for gas were/are due to obvious and various well-documented reasons that caused the oil & gas supply to shrink and - predictably - pushed gas prices up. Oil companies benefit from higher prices with higher profits, yes, but as they do not manufacture the shortages, as the conspiracy theorists so desperately want to believe, the higher profits are perfectly legitimate, in my view, despite the ranting of some TV commentators sometimes appearing to be suffering apoplexy over the price of gas as they (millionaires, all) try to prove they 'feel our pain' and are 'looking out for us'. Please.

The gas company 'price-gouging conspiracy' is such an old, discredited argument that I find it surprising you - or anyone would wish to perpetuate it here. Perhaps it's only because of the 'Bush connection' that some folks seem to believe is mysteriously tied to this oil company price gouging 'conspiracy'. I say "mysteriously tied" because no one ever really has any proof of such a 'conspiracy'.

I sometimes have to wonder how those who actually believe this alleged 'Bush connection' is 'behind' high gas prices will explain the motivation and cause of the alleged high gas price 'conspiracy' when Bush and Cheney are retired and out of office in 17 months - and no longer can be justifiably blamed for 'manipulating the price of gas to enrich their alleged'buddies in the oil business'. That should prove a challenge that I'm certain the conspiracy theory buffs will rise to. I hope you are not one of them. I really do.

Meanwhile, we could all drive less and conserve gas, which would take the pressure off of finite gas supplies and likely keep pump prices stable if not bring them down, but that never seems to be a viable option for anyone. Although we all talk a good gasoline conservation game, it's always: 'you first'. So be it.

[Unit 5302]

The same company responsible for shutting down the pipeline, British Petroleum, was recently charged with market tampering with propane prices so they certainly have proven they have a propensity for this kind of thing.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...p_propane.html

Please notice that one of the witnesses against BP, a former trader plead guilty to what? Conspiracy.

As for your arguments about demand, they're nothing short of baseless. There is no shortage of oil, and OPEC has offered to increase production if necessary multiple times. The US does not refine gasoline for other world markets before supplying it to the US markets. Furthermore, oil companies have readily admitted to controlling gasoline prices in the interest of curbing demand to prevent shortages. This flies in the face of the reality that increased gasoline prices has not resulted in a signficant reduction in gasoline purchases.

The mere fact that oil companies admit to controlling the price of gasoline is enough to warrant investigation. Multiple companies working together to keep prices artificially high is called price fixing.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DPB2900.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13404319/

There is always a burden of proof to be met in order to take accusations seriously, and in the face of the non-stop excuses spoon fed to the American public amidst world record setting profits, there is simply no room for doubt here.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

The same company responsible for shutting down the pipeline, British Petroleum, was recently charged with market tampering with propane prices so they certainly have proven they have a propensity for this kind of thing.

Please notice that one of the witnesses against BP, a former trader plead guilty to what? Conspiracy.

That particular incident may neatly fit your 'conspiracy' template but it doesn't come close to proving BP and/or any other oil company has 'conspired' to raise gas prices at the pump, as you infer. You'll have to do a bit better than guilt by association. A BP trader and his cohorts pulling an illegal attempt to manipulate a section of the natural gas market and, upon his sentencing, his pointing fingers (with no evidence to back his accusations) at BP senior management, claiming he 'thought' the illegal manipulation attempt had their 'approval', does not constitute an industy-wide 'conspiracy', or even a BP conspiracy. Even the court ignored this bogus line of defense at the convicted trader's sentencing.

Nice try, though, as you managed to find a news story with 'oil company'and 'conspiracy' in the same sentence. Good work, even if it proves nothing.

As for your arguments about demand, they're nothing short of baseless.

Kell, you are woefully uninformed if you honestly believe that.

Tell you what: let's look at your statements and then bring some facts into the discussion, shall we?

There is no shortage of oil, and OPEC has offered to increase production if necessary multiple times.

Now, I don't recall claiming that there ever was a 'shortage of oil'. I was trying to make the point that the available oil supply is basically finite and the ever-increaseing demand for the available (crude) oil naturally pushes up the price on the market. It's that simple.

As for your rather touching belief in the alleged beneficence of OPEC:

As recently as December, 2004, OPEC threatened to reduce its daily oil output by 1 million barrels a day if the price didn't rise. It did. Worldwide, oil is trading at around $78. per bbl. today (8/10/06). A steep rise in price that has absolutely nothing to do with alleged oil company conspiracies but can clearly be attributed to a 'tight' oil market based on pipeline delivery and often-related weather problems.

OPEC's monthly report (released 8/7/06) stated that OPEC's crude oil output dipped by 250,000 barrels a day in July, even as prices rose toward record highs, after a pipeline leak in Nigeria and maintenance in Venezuela hit production. Crude output from OPEC fell to 29.55 million barrels a day last month, the report stated. Well, so much for the 'OPEC will supply us with all the oil we need' myth. They cannot, they will not and they do not.

Oil market analysts project that the worldwide demand for oil will continue to grow at a rate reaching approximately 15% over the next 10 years. That will also have an impact on gas prices here in the United States in the years to come. It has to. Yet the environmentalist groups continue to oppose any oil exploration in the U.S., which is simply irresponsible. However, domestic oil production is expected to slightly increase over the next 18 months, which is a positive sign.

The US does not refine gasoline for other world markets before supplying it to the US markets.

(bold added by JS - for emphasis).

Please don't be disingeneous. U.S.-based oil companies import the majority of the crude oil they purchase from other sources, including OPEC, and they have to compete for that oil with other nation's oil companies, many state-owned and run, including those in Russia, China and Japan. Still, it doesn't matter how much crude oil a company imports, until it's refined down to gasoline that meets U.S. standards, including carefully mixing in a bunch of additives mandated by the various states and separating the gas into state-specific truckloads, an expensive process, it's useless to the consumer - or even to those who just want to buy (refined) oil, such as manufacturers and distributors of heating oil. That the U.S. oil refining capacity is now and has been strained to the max in the for 30 years due to the lack of new refineries being built, because the federal and state environmental regulations make it economically impossible to build them, is a real factor in the price of gas at the pump. Are you unaware of that reality? I didn't think you were.

Furthermore, oil companies have readily admitted to controlling gasoline prices in the interest of curbing demand to prevent shortages. This flies in the face of the reality that increased gasoline prices has not resulted in a signficant reduction in gasoline purchases.

Furthermore, 'controlling the price' simply means setting a market price for your product or commodity based on a reasonable profit margin (about 6¢ per every dollar of sales, annually) just as farmers and manufacturers do. Every business 'controls' it's product's market price, setting a price for wholesale and retail buyers then adjusting it according to market conditions. You must be aware of that marketing basic. Frankly, this use of semantics is ridiculous. Then, we're discussing conspiracy theories here, so why am I not surprised? Ah well, let's continue examining your statements and see what we can find.

The mere fact that oil companies admit to controlling the price of gasoline is enough to warrant investigation. Multiple companies working together to keep prices artificially high is called price fixing.

Of course oil companies would like to really control the price of gasoline! Why wouldn't they? Why shouldn't they? However, wanting to do something and actually doing it are two far different things, as you know. I'm sure the oil companies would like gas, at retail, to sell for $10. per gallon, just as Ford would like to sell cars for $150,000. apiece, like Rolls Royce does. So what? All gasoline consumers have to do is cut back on their consumption a noticable amount (cut back unnecessary driving and ditch the outsized, gas-guzzling vehicles) and any attempt by any oil company to 'control' the price of gas at the pump goes out the window, fast. There is absolutely no profit on unsold gasoline. It's axiomatic that a decreased demand for gas would certainly help lower the price of gas. I wish we would do this. Fat chance. Instead, we complain and look for oil company 'price-fixing conspiracies' that do not exist. It's frustrating.

Unit, you must know that the U.S. runs as a 'free-market' economy, not a socialist or communist-style, 'controlled' economy. The really big oil companies, many foreign and even those who are domestic, have huge investments, not only in exploration attempts but in the expensive, almost one-of-a-kind equipment used to drill for, extract and transport crude oil. The companies also have to pay fat fees to the governments of the countries where they buy or extract the crude oil they refine and sell. Then, there are the taxes. Lots of taxes. Foreign taxes, federal taxes and state taxes on oil and oil company profits. No, I don't feel sorry for them. I should also state that I don't own any oil company stock nor am I related (or even know) anyone in the 'oil' business, I'm just stating a fact - that oil companies pay a lot of taxes. Not enough for some folks satisfaction, I'm sure, but a lot, all the same.

It's rather obvious that, after 30 investigations over the past 20 years by various government regulatory agencies (during both Democrat and Republican administrations), there is no substantial evidence of oil companies 'fixing' the retail price of gas. If there were, their top executives would have been indicted and likely jailed, if not publicly flogged, by now. The 'price-fixing'/'price manipulation' accusations bandied about (especially on the internet - where there is no accountability) whenever pump gas prices rise significently is baseless. I'm surprised you even bothered to use it, here, as you must realize it is quite unsupportable. However, even people who have the resources to do some real research - not simply comb the internet seeking validation for their assumptions - and should know better, such as Fox News star Bill O'Reilly, apparently still buy into the oil company 'price fixing' myth, despite a severe lack of evidence to back up that claim. Then, they try to cliam that if the FTC doesn't find wrongdoing by the oil companies, they must be 'covering it up' and are deemed 'ineffectual' or even 'corrupt'- realistically translated as: "They don't find what I want them to find". No, I do not attribute these comments to you, personally, Kell. This being the case, I'm not really surprised that many ordinary folks are eager to swallow the 'oil company price fixing' hoax. I am simply disappointed that one of them is you. The oil company executives that testified before that (useless) Senate committee awhile back freely offered to open their books to any government investigation. So much for conspiracies. The whole thing was simply political grandstanding. Do you not realize that? I bet you do.

As one of the industry executives stated, the U.S. has about 2% of the world's oil supply and uses 25% of the oil. Do you honestly think that this does not effect the price of refined gasoline at the pump - or are you one of those folks who assume 'cheap' gas is some kind of constitutional right? Since I assume you know better, then why do you keep insisting that there is a 'conspiracy' to raise gasoline prices ? There is not - and none has ever been demonstrated, much less, proven.

Let's at least try to be realistic, shall we? Gas prices are a 'hot-button' issue and both politicians and the media are quick to jump on any appearance of oil company pricing 'collusion', real or, in this case, imagined. However, the oil & gas business is very tightly regulated in the U.S. and any 'conspiracy' to raise gas prices minus any provable justification would be eventually found out, exposed and severely punished. Despite the claim of a few conspiracy-theory diehards that no indictments of oil company execs somehow 'prove' they must be guilty and are just paying off people in the Bush administration, the fact remains that almost all of the political left-wing - Democrats - which control 49% of the congress - despises 'big oil' (along with Wal-Mart). There is no way they would let the opportunity to make political points with the electorate and at the same time, 'stick it' to oil companies and by (falsely assumed) association, President Bush, slip through theeir fingers, as it were. No way. Even big oil and (purely hypothetical) big bribe money can't block rank political opportunism in this politically divisive era. Besides, not everyone can be 'bought'.

Well, at least you refrained from accusing President Bush of being 'behind' the gas price upsurge and trying to 'enrich his oil buddies' as the loonier internet websites claim. I'll give you that, at least.

There is always a burden of proof to be met in order to take accusations seriously, and in the face of the non-stop excuses spoon fed to the American public amidst world record setting profits, there is simply no room for doubt here.

High gas prices and resultant oil company profits when crude oil delivery is diminished and gas consumption drastically increases, for very obvious reasons, such as high consumption levels, are a simple 2+ 2 equation. Supply (especially constrained with the finite number of refineries in the U.S.) and demand (growing every year as the population grows and affluency grows with it) is also an obvious reason for escalating gasoline prices, which in the U.S., is actually less than what Europeans pay, because in Europe, gas is heavily taxed, thanks to their (failing) socialist economies. In addition, here at home, most state's taxes on gas are unfairly high (43¢ per gallon in my politically 'liberal' state), adding to the price at the pump. This simply enriches hypocritical politicians anxious to spend the gas tax money from over-burdened taxpayers while blaming 'big oil' for high gas prices and holding kangroo-court 'hearings' (press conferences, really) and convincing the gullible that it's all a 'conspiracy'. I am somewhat disappointed that you appear to have bought into this sham. I always considered you a savvy guy.

Sorry, Unit, but I do not take your accusations about oil companiy 'conspiracies' at all seriously. I see lots of 'room for doubt here'. I think that other folks do, too. Well, I certainly hope so.

[Unit 5302]

Don't you find it awfully dark down there with your head in the sand?

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

Don't you find it awfully dark down there with your head in the sand?

If that puerile comment is the best response you can come up with then I can see that I've totally wasted my time clearly (as well as patiently) explaining why your naive conspiracy theory beliefs regarding higher gas prices and 'big oil' are unsupportable. I won't make that particular mistake, again. Life is too short to waste on this kind of exercise in futility; i.e. trying to present reality to a closed mind.


Very well, Unit 5302, live in your own little world, if you so desire. Believe what ever nonsense you wish to swallow, but please don't always expect to peddle it here with no rebuttal. I cannot abide willful ignorance that ignores facts and reality in order to entertain a patently false premise that feeds into a neurosis apparently being manifested by you and others as victimization-by-big-oil. How sad.

[Capri306]

I love lamp.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

In case anyone cares, gasoline futures have plummetted about 15% over the last 3 trading days...

I won't go into the economics of all of this... but just thought it was pretty revealing considering concerns about the industry and supply, that the futures couldn't push anything more than a short lived modest rally.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

Dogwood energy sells stills... http://www.ethanolstill.com/

I saw them highlighted on CNBC a couple months back... it's interesting, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that ethanol is an answer for our energy problems... especially not corn ethanol. That, of course, doesn't stop the brainiacs in Washington from throwing money at it, which is why it's at all popular. Subsidies at every level.

[Rev]

I've read most of the reponses in this post, not all of them completely. I feel that a few points are fairly obvious but might need to be mentioned.

1.) Oil is a world commodity requiring world competitition in prices for the world's production of crude.

2.) There is a cost for refining crude oil into gasoline no matter where it is done.

3.) Refiners must make a reasonaable profit to produce the gasoline or it will not be
done. (10% doesn't seem unreasonable to me).

4.) If you don't want to or can't pay the price for a gallon of gas, you can look into the cost of mass transportation, join a car pool, ride a bike, or just walk if you have to. No one else is going to pay the cost of the the gas that you use.

I realize that these obvious truths are not going to sway any opinions, but the fact is if you are going to consume gasoline, you are going to have to pay for it.

Rev

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

That's a pretty good synopsis, Rev...

The last marginal buyer is always the one that sets the price for everyone. That simply means that if there is more demand than supply, the price of the supply is determined by the price the buyer of the last bit of supply is willing to pay.

While not everyone pays the same for oil because of their government structure, the world oil market is where prices are set that we pay. For example, a gallon of gasoline can cost 25 cents in Venezuela because it is largely government run and regulated. Excess supplies are sold on the world markets, to bring revenues into the government and allow it to sustain itself...

Markets are a continuous discount mechanism. They ALWAYS are weighing the risks from all sides to supply and demand and determine price. Prices fluctuate because those risks and perceptions fluctuate. And although it seems like oil has been high forever, in fact it was only 2 years ago when we first crossed $40 and $50.

Now, the part that ticks me off is that we do have ability in the US to be more energy independent... Why is it that Cuba can sign a deal with Venezuela and China to drill for oil 50 miles off of the Florida coast, but it is illegal for US companies to do the same? This is flat out insane.

Now, that is not to say that the problem is crude... but we could certainly help on that front by tapping our own resources on the outer continental shelf and ANWR...

Our real problem is refining capacity and the centralization of our infrastructure as we so vividly realized after Katrina. As of now, most excess supply capabilities to produce oil in the world come from Saudi Arabia...

Problem:

Saudi crude is filled with incredible amounts of sulphur... With the exception of Valero, there are few if any US refineries that are even capable of refining that cheaper sour crude because of environmental standards...

Answer is easy, right? Just build more refineries... yeah right. Not with today's political environment where NIMBY and BANANA protest everything and tie it up in courts for decades...

Great news... Saudi Arabia realizes that this is a huge problem, so they've come up with a solution:

They are in the process of building some of the biggest refiners on the planet that could serve the US market...

Great right? Problem...

Wasn't the goal to get away from Foriegn supplies of oil and oil from hostile/unstable regions? Well, I guess we will be less dependent on their oil, we'll just be more dependent on their refined product.


Conspiracy theorists need to get their heads out of their butts and realize that as a robust economy, we need sustained and increasing forms of energy. The solution will not be "demand destruction" and "government giveaways" (anyone else know that we place a HUGE tariff on Brazillian ethanol? Think about that the next time you pull up to the gas station)... it absolutely must be comprehensive that allows for a wide range of solutions. New supplies of domestically produced oil being one of them. Harvesting oil shale, Fischer Trophs coal gasification, wind farms, nuclear being just a few others.

If people would get over the hyperbole and politics, they might not only learn something, but get something done.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Phillyfanfrombirth

That's a pretty good synopsis, Rev.

The last marginal buyer is always the one that sets the price for everyone. That simply means that if there is more demand than supply, the price of the supply is determined by the price the buyer of the last bit of supply is willing to pay.

Correct. That the pump price of gas has risen to over $3.00 amidst howls of consumer protest and the antics of grandstanding politicians but demand has hardly wavered or dropped in any noticable way, proves that we certainly have a florishing economy. We, the consumer, the 'last marginql buyer(s)' you mentioned, are obviously willing to pay the $3.+ per-gallon price. Most of us can afford it, or else, we cut out something else from our budgets so that we can 'afford it'. We want and need our gas. Fortunately for us, we live in a a prosperous nation, whether we happen to think so, or not. Thus, we will pay more for our gas if the price rises but we'll complain about it all the while and continue to rant about oil companies and their allegedly 'obscene' profits, which is simple human nature.

While not everyone pays the same for oil because of their government structure, the world oil market is where prices are set that we pay. For example, a gallon of gasoline can cost 25 cents in Venezuela because it is largely government run and regulated. Excess supplies are sold on the world markets, to bring revenues into the government and allow it to sustain itself...

In most european countries, the national tax on gas is over $1.00 per gallon. By comparison, right now, in Venezuela, pump gas is only 12¢ per gallon. As you noted, countries that have large crude oil supplies, such as Venezuela, can control the price and keep it low while other non-oil-producing countries such as France or Japan, tax gas heavily, partly to discourage consumption but mostly to bring needed revenue into the national treasury. In the U.S. we have a 18¢ per gallon federal tax on gasoline and every state adds its own tax. Some cities also add a city tax to gasoline sold within their city limits. In New York City, its 4¢ per gallon is added to the state tax of almost 40¢ per gallon, for a total of 62¢ per gallon in taxes added to the base price of gas. So, in Manhattan that $3.50 per gallon price may actually start out as $2.88 per gallon, pre-tax, of course. Most consumers are almost unaware that their pump gas is taxed - a lot. They may know gasoline is taxed, but few seem to think about it much, or care, as far as I can tell. I see no protest marches against gas taxes and I don't expect I ever will.

Ironically, most serious enviromentalists love higher gasoline prices because they think (and hope) it will drive down the use of cars. That seems to be a fallacy.

Markets are a continuous discount mechanism. They ALWAYS are weighing the risks from all sides to supply and demand and determine price. Prices fluctuate because those risks and perceptions fluctuate. And although it seems like oil has been high forever, in fact it was only 2 years ago when we first crossed $40 and $50.

It was in August of 2004 that crude oil went to over $40.per bbl. Exactly two years ago. Oil prices have become a worldwide commodity and that has helped to drive up the price. OPEC lost control of the world oil market some years ago.

Now, the part that ticks me off is that we do have ability in the US to be more energy independent... Why is it that Cuba can sign a deal with Venezuela and China to drill for oil 50 miles off of the Florida coast, but it is illegal for US companies to do the same? This is flat out insane.

The U.S. government doesn't want to help fund Castro's gulag in any way and the Venezuelan Castro-wannabe, Hugo Chevas, decided to cut off sales of his nation's crude oil to 'punish' the United States. If Castro, 80 and ailing, croaks, as he will eventually, we may be able to do business with his successor. Maybe. Chevas is another story. He was democratically elected and looks like he will be around awhile so if he continues his anti-American stance, goodbye any cooperation from him. He is likely to replace old Castro as a Latin-American PITA for America.

Now, that is not to say that the problem is crude... but we could certainly help on that front by tapping our own resources on the outer continental shelf and ANWR.

That will happen, eventually, despite the protests by 'greens'. Higher gas prices actually help that 'cause'.

Conspiracy theorists need to get their heads out of their butts and realize that as a robust economy, we need sustained and increasing forms of energy. The solution will not be "demand destruction" and "government giveaways" (anyone else know that we place a HUGE tariff on Brazillian ethanol? Think about that the next time you pull up to the gas station)... it absolutely must be comprehensive that allows for a wide range of solutions. New supplies of domestically produced oil being one of them. Harvesting oil shale, Fischer Trophs coal gasification, wind farms, nuclear being just a few others.

If people would get over the hyperbole and politics, they might not only learn something, but get something done.

Don't count on any of that happening any time real soon. Oil/gas production, refining (and the price of gas) is a political football - and no one wants to allow anyone else to do anything, first.