Fuel Prices

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/fre..._stories.shtml


Here was the story that I was thinking of... it happened March... there were a string of such events.

[MEDIK418]

Amen to the market thread. As for the story about the BP blast, we're about 700 miles North of those poor folks. BP has had a terrible year or two.
I've been accused (as has most oil industry employees) of causing these high prices and the fact that we have about as much impact on gasoline prices as we do on the color of corn usually causes the old "you don't cry about bottled water and nike prices do you" response. Like I said, we know what it takes to make a gallon of gasoline and we know the market controls every aspect of the industry, from the simple act of starting a well to the the finished product.
What amazes me now is that congress is trying to pass legislation to steal a huge chunk of the profits that oil companies have realized recently. Gee, what a great way to finance the raise they voted themselves. Let's make the problem worse by limiting capital investment money that would go a long way toward finding new reserves on our side of the pond. And lets be sure to build that 20 million dollar bridge in alaska for the 200 people who live on that island.

Anyway, I made myself out a liar. . . .I said I was through with this and I think I've flogged myself enough on this one. I'll save myself for the natural gas crisis coming up in about a month. That ought to be a riot.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

My bet is on coal gasification...

As far as Natural Gas... we really lucked out in the past month or so with the weather to allow for those inventories to build again... Unlike oil and refined products, we can't import our way out of a natural gas shortage... The high prices should do their part in forcing consumers to conserve, this year as well.

In my own household, which is heated with heating oil, we've made the switch to electric via a number of baseboards. In my area, the main producers of electricity are coal and nuclear... I know others who've given up on their natural gas and have opted for wood and pellet stoves.

Again, the market works... a shortage and/or high prices in one commodity changes the acceptance and usage of that product as consumers look for alternatives. I just wish congress can get it through their skulls... Oil companies don't need tax incentives and tax breaks, they need access. Access to the continental shelf and access to ANWR...

Why it is so difficult for people and congress to understand markets and history is beyond me... they screw it up damn near every chance they get.

[Unit 5302]

Originally Posted by Phillyfanfrombirth

...Again, the market works... a shortage and/or high prices in one commodity changes the acceptance and usage of that product as consumers look for alternatives. I just wish congress can get it through their skulls... Oil companies don't need tax incentives and tax breaks, they need access. Access to the continental shelf and access to ANWR...

Why it is so difficult for people and congress to understand markets and history is beyond me... they screw it up damn near every chance they get.

Again. The market is broken because high prices are being set to stave off "possible" shortages. There is currently no reasonable alternative for gasoline or diesel fuel for Americans. Damn straight oil companies don't need tax incentives or breaks, but they do like their political purchases to yield some positive results.

The idea that access to the Arctic North Wildlife Refuge or the continental shelf would somehow change the situation we're in is absurd. The minimal economic impact of access to those resources in comparison to the potential ecological impact makes the tradeoff unwarranted. Crude oil is in no immediate danger of shortages, and quite frankly, encouraging the continued expansion and use of the resource is irresponsible. Now, refineries are another issue altogether. Approval to build a few would help, albeit only in the future since it will take years to get a new one running.

Congress and legislators respond to the demands of the people that put them in office, like they're supposed to. Since the Exxon-Mobil merger, gasoline prices have gone as high as triple what they were. Regardless of why prices were what they were, Americans want answers to why it's suddenly costing them $2000 more per year to get around. Such a change in price with a drop in competition absolutely invites the discussion of price gouging, especially when the oil companies respond to the questions with defiant and inflammatory statements. Obviously, anybody with a brain or knowledge of the situation can say oil prices have skyrocketed, leading to the increase in price of gasoline. That was a legitimate argument for most people until Exxon-Mobil started setting worldwide profit records. Now congress is listening to some very angry Americans that decide whether or not the representatives keep their jobs, and the defiant special interest groups that pay them.

The bottom line is that Americans are annoyed, they're leary of more corporate scandals, and the oil companies are antagonizing them.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

Prices ran higher... aggregate demand dropped by up to 4% (which is stunning without an accompaning recession)... People were FORCED to conserve, not by law... but by necessity.

THIS is how markets work.... and they did, again.

Now, if you are saying that the price rise in oil was/is unwarranted... then we could agree on that. Just as housing markets that doubled in the past year are unwarranted (Where's the congressional hearing on that one?)... but that is also a function of the markets, speculative bubbles based on assumptions of no risk and tremendous rewards, pop.

We do need tremendous amounts of additional refining capacity... without a decade worth of red tape to get it started... I'll agree there, but we also need access, period.

I also love the argument, "yeah but that will take years".... had ANWR drilling been passed in 2001 when it was introduced, we'd be seeing production within the next 24 months... The delay tactics are part of the reason we are in this situation.

As far as gasoline... don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon.

Between coal gasification, Oil sands, and oil shale... all of which are profitable below $90/barrel... we have enough DOMESTIC capacity to fill our energy needs for the next 500 years.

As far as Exxon Mobil... check out their profit margins, or any major oil producer... you'll be surprised as what you'll find.

Also on that point... where was the contempt when oil was $10 a barrel after Russia and other Asian finances collapsed in 1998? Time and time again, people wish the government to do the work of the markets... and time and time again, the government screws it up. Check out the 1970s fixes, many of which are being bantied about now, and see how well they worked.

Then check out what happened in the early 1980s that changed that...

Its pretty clear.

[Unit 5302]

I agree, the red tape is ridiculous. That being said, nobody really knows how much fuel reserves we have. I don't necessarily think our current energy sources and production are the best we have to offer right now. How unstable is nuclear waste? Why can't we just blast the stuff into space? LOL. Sounds a little goofy, but you would think it wouldn't be all that expensive, plus so long as we don't have meltdowns, it's easier on the environment.

Exxon-Mobil's profit margins are not out of line with many companies. That being said, the profit is not being dictated by the market, it's being dictated by the oil companies, and it was approximately 2-3 times greater than what it had been. As far as the impact increasing the price had on consumption... the entire economy took a hit with the hurricane, and hundreds of thousands of people were not driving. To link the consumption drop directly to the increase in price is impossible.

Why are you asking me questions that you know the answer to? Where was the contempt when crude was $10 a barrel? People don't complain about things being too cheap, unless you're trying to sell a Mustang in Autumn or Winter, lol. Oil was too cheap, in all fairness. The oil companies were still making about $0.20/gallon profit on gasoline at that time, though. It's right about what they're making at the moment, by my calculations. OPEC finally got their act together and started cutting back production in unison. Though they were originally targetting no higher than $30/bbl I think they're liking the profits on the $50+/bbl so I don't think we'll see a signfiicant drop in price until demand falls greatly.

I'm not saying that the US government can fix the economy with legislation. I'm just saying that congress is doing what they are supposed to when they listen to the taxpayers complain. It certainly would have gone a lot smoother had the oil companies not basically flipped the bird at congress and the American people even though they had the right to do so.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

Demand doesn't fall in normal economic conditions... it only goes one way, up. Even @ $60, demand was up about 2% on a year over year basis... it wasn't until the Katrina straw, that the camel's back was broken and demand deteriorated to the negative side.

It has recently, as the price of oil has come in to the high 50s, come back to flat year over year...

I'm not one to blame the oil companies for doing business... I blame our government's policies, strong foreign demand, and our own surprisingly robust economy... The government limits our supply, and the economy provides greater demand. It is (was) a train wreck in the making, especially when you add in the speculative aspect.

As far as why I ask you a loaded question, the same market forces are at work today as they were 7 years ago... people tend to like markets when the stuff they want to buy is cheaper than it otherwise was, as was the case from 83-early2000 (with the exception of Gulf War I spikes in 1990-1991), then cry foul when the market goes against their best interests.

As any commodity trader will tell you, the best cure for low prices... is low prices. The best cure for high prices... is high prices.

[Unit 5302]

The biggest reason that oil prices had fallen so low in the late 90s was OPEC. The nations would collectively agree to limit production to a certain level, and inevitably, one nation would break the agreement and start pumping to beat hell.

The disagreements on production go quite a ways back, and it was one reason why Iraq invaded Kuwait. The two were sitting on an oil field that was under both countries, and on one side, Kuwait was pumping to beat all hell. It would be similar to Canada was cutting down trees for wood in Glacier National Park, and amazingly enough, it got Iraq a little poed.

With OPEC finally more unified, they have actually been controlling production a lot better, and it would have resulted in oil priced around the target of $30/bbl if it hadn't been for crazy people getting into a futures bid war, and the unexpected large increase in demand from Asian markets.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

I can agree with that... It got to a point that countries couldn't survive with the limits and $10 oil, and needed to up their revenues... Surely, however, the Asian economies thwarted anticipated demand for those handful of years.

Though I find it extremely hard to believe that at these levels, they don't have peasants with siphons in those wells trying to extract every drop available.

LOL.

[Unit 5302]

Well, it's not really fair to put in a vote nearly 1 year after the last comment whoever you are. Especially since average price has peaked over $3.00/gallon already.

Oil companies have fanned the flames of speculators, allowing oil prices to continue to surge. Add in the shutdown of the Alaska oil pipeline due to "corrosion" which must have come on suddenly for it not to be noticed until now... right when prices are already at an all time high, and we have a lovely combination of price gouging, price fixing, insider trading and market tampering. All highly illegal, but with an oil tycoon connected President, and unmotivated regulatory bodies, Americans should keep practicing the ankle grab. I still find it amazing that their is always a good reason prices are so high these days. For the past few years, big oil has been able to point the finger somewhere else. Hurricane Katrina, the Iraq War, mysterious refinery issues, high consumer demand, lack of the correct formulations. Seems like they've had an unending string of events that just keep happening to make sure gas prices don't fall, and amazingly enough, record profits are recorded every year, if not every quarter...

Gas prices are a large part of why the federal reserve was unable to justify an additional interest rate hike, which given the rest of the economies situation was warranted.

I'm actually quite surprised US auto manufacturers haven't been outspoken about the current fuel prices considering their slumping sales and recent focus on R&D for the waning truck market.

[Mr 5 0]

I see old threads and old arguments really do 'never die'. Very well. My turn at bat.


Unit, please don't tell us you buy into the lame 'conspiracy theory' that gas companies constantly collude to raise prices, screw the consumer, possibly lead the economy into a recession - and it's all connected to the fact that George W. Bush was once a part of the oil business? That would be absurd. You must know better.

Do you wish to deny that hurricane Katrina greatly damaged oil supplies from the Louisiana/Gulf area last year, or was Katrina another Bush 'conspiracy'?

Are you aware that:

India and China, with their recently ramped-up factory production as well as a huge and newly affluent (well, relatively affluent) population have been making unprecedented demands on the world's oil resources?

That there are more cars on the road in America (as well as in China and India) than ever before - and, in the U.S., a lot of them are large, heavy SUV's with big engines that consume more gas than the vehicle they may have replaced -or- in the case of China and India, cars that get terrible gas mileage due to the old technology that powers them?

That there has not been a new oil refinery built in the U.S. for 30 years, making the availability of gasoline finite and so, near-impossible for the supply of gasoline to keep up with the growing demand and that when supply cannot meet demand the price goes up, no matter what the commodity is?


Fortunately, while we all rightly moan about high gas prices and the internet buzzes with 'conspiracy theories' that the eeeeevil oil companies are simply screwing everyone and President Bush is somehow behind it all, the reality is that higher gas prices were almost inevitable, speculators are a big part of the problem and, so far, higher gas prices have not had a major impact on the strong U.S. economy, but they could, eventually.

Then, along with the howling from consumers (us) and scare stories in the left-wing media (blaming Bush, of course) we'll get yet another congressional investigation - as predictable as ticks in the summer - with lots of oil-company bashing by table-pounding, grandstanding poiliticians pretending they can 'do something' when all they can really do is make things worse, as they did in the '70's with stupid government-mandated 'price freezes' on gasoline, which led to severe shortages and huge inconveniences for all drivers as well as having a negative impact on the U.S. economy.

When the ineluctable congressional investigation into the rise in gas prices ends, months later, to absolutely no publicity at all, the conclusion will be, as it has been in previous investigations, that higher prices for gas were/are due to obvious and various well-documented reasons that caused the oil & gas supply to shrink and - predictably - pushed gas prices up. Oil companies benefit from higher prices with higher profits, yes, but as they do not manufacture the shortages, as the conspiracy theorists so desperately want to believe, the higher profits are perfectly legitimate, in my view, despite the ranting of some TV commentators sometimes appearing to be suffering apoplexy over the price of gas as they (millionaires, all) try to prove they 'feel our pain' and are 'looking out for us'. Please.

The gas company 'price-gouging conspiracy' is such an old, discredited argument that I find it surprising you - or anyone would wish to perpetuate it here. Perhaps it's only because of the 'Bush connection' that some folks seem to believe is mysteriously tied to this oil company price gouging 'conspiracy'. I say "mysteriously tied" because no one ever really has any proof of such a 'conspiracy'.

I sometimes have to wonder how those who actually believe this alleged 'Bush connection' is 'behind' high gas prices will explain the motivation and cause of the alleged high gas price 'conspiracy' when Bush and Cheney are retired and out of office in 17 months - and no longer can be justifiably blamed for 'manipulating the price of gas to enrich their alleged'buddies in the oil business'. That should prove a challenge that I'm certain the conspiracy theory buffs will rise to. I hope you are not one of them. I really do.

Meanwhile, we could all drive less and conserve gas, which would take the pressure off of finite gas supplies and likely keep pump prices stable if not bring them down, but that never seems to be a viable option for anyone. Although we all talk a good gasoline conservation game, it's always: 'you first'. So be it.

[Unit 5302]

The same company responsible for shutting down the pipeline, British Petroleum, was recently charged with market tampering with propane prices so they certainly have proven they have a propensity for this kind of thing.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...p_propane.html

Please notice that one of the witnesses against BP, a former trader plead guilty to what? Conspiracy.

As for your arguments about demand, they're nothing short of baseless. There is no shortage of oil, and OPEC has offered to increase production if necessary multiple times. The US does not refine gasoline for other world markets before supplying it to the US markets. Furthermore, oil companies have readily admitted to controlling gasoline prices in the interest of curbing demand to prevent shortages. This flies in the face of the reality that increased gasoline prices has not resulted in a signficant reduction in gasoline purchases.

The mere fact that oil companies admit to controlling the price of gasoline is enough to warrant investigation. Multiple companies working together to keep prices artificially high is called price fixing.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DPB2900.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13404319/

There is always a burden of proof to be met in order to take accusations seriously, and in the face of the non-stop excuses spoon fed to the American public amidst world record setting profits, there is simply no room for doubt here.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

The same company responsible for shutting down the pipeline, British Petroleum, was recently charged with market tampering with propane prices so they certainly have proven they have a propensity for this kind of thing.

Please notice that one of the witnesses against BP, a former trader plead guilty to what? Conspiracy.

That particular incident may neatly fit your 'conspiracy' template but it doesn't come close to proving BP and/or any other oil company has 'conspired' to raise gas prices at the pump, as you infer. You'll have to do a bit better than guilt by association. A BP trader and his cohorts pulling an illegal attempt to manipulate a section of the natural gas market and, upon his sentencing, his pointing fingers (with no evidence to back his accusations) at BP senior management, claiming he 'thought' the illegal manipulation attempt had their 'approval', does not constitute an industy-wide 'conspiracy', or even a BP conspiracy. Even the court ignored this bogus line of defense at the convicted trader's sentencing.

Nice try, though, as you managed to find a news story with 'oil company'and 'conspiracy' in the same sentence. Good work, even if it proves nothing.

As for your arguments about demand, they're nothing short of baseless.

Kell, you are woefully uninformed if you honestly believe that.

Tell you what: let's look at your statements and then bring some facts into the discussion, shall we?

There is no shortage of oil, and OPEC has offered to increase production if necessary multiple times.

Now, I don't recall claiming that there ever was a 'shortage of oil'. I was trying to make the point that the available oil supply is basically finite and the ever-increaseing demand for the available (crude) oil naturally pushes up the price on the market. It's that simple.

As for your rather touching belief in the alleged beneficence of OPEC:

As recently as December, 2004, OPEC threatened to reduce its daily oil output by 1 million barrels a day if the price didn't rise. It did. Worldwide, oil is trading at around $78. per bbl. today (8/10/06). A steep rise in price that has absolutely nothing to do with alleged oil company conspiracies but can clearly be attributed to a 'tight' oil market based on pipeline delivery and often-related weather problems.

OPEC's monthly report (released 8/7/06) stated that OPEC's crude oil output dipped by 250,000 barrels a day in July, even as prices rose toward record highs, after a pipeline leak in Nigeria and maintenance in Venezuela hit production. Crude output from OPEC fell to 29.55 million barrels a day last month, the report stated. Well, so much for the 'OPEC will supply us with all the oil we need' myth. They cannot, they will not and they do not.

Oil market analysts project that the worldwide demand for oil will continue to grow at a rate reaching approximately 15% over the next 10 years. That will also have an impact on gas prices here in the United States in the years to come. It has to. Yet the environmentalist groups continue to oppose any oil exploration in the U.S., which is simply irresponsible. However, domestic oil production is expected to slightly increase over the next 18 months, which is a positive sign.

The US does not refine gasoline for other world markets before supplying it to the US markets.

(bold added by JS - for emphasis).

Please don't be disingeneous. U.S.-based oil companies import the majority of the crude oil they purchase from other sources, including OPEC, and they have to compete for that oil with other nation's oil companies, many state-owned and run, including those in Russia, China and Japan. Still, it doesn't matter how much crude oil a company imports, until it's refined down to gasoline that meets U.S. standards, including carefully mixing in a bunch of additives mandated by the various states and separating the gas into state-specific truckloads, an expensive process, it's useless to the consumer - or even to those who just want to buy (refined) oil, such as manufacturers and distributors of heating oil. That the U.S. oil refining capacity is now and has been strained to the max in the for 30 years due to the lack of new refineries being built, because the federal and state environmental regulations make it economically impossible to build them, is a real factor in the price of gas at the pump. Are you unaware of that reality? I didn't think you were.

Furthermore, oil companies have readily admitted to controlling gasoline prices in the interest of curbing demand to prevent shortages. This flies in the face of the reality that increased gasoline prices has not resulted in a signficant reduction in gasoline purchases.

Furthermore, 'controlling the price' simply means setting a market price for your product or commodity based on a reasonable profit margin (about 6¢ per every dollar of sales, annually) just as farmers and manufacturers do. Every business 'controls' it's product's market price, setting a price for wholesale and retail buyers then adjusting it according to market conditions. You must be aware of that marketing basic. Frankly, this use of semantics is ridiculous. Then, we're discussing conspiracy theories here, so why am I not surprised? Ah well, let's continue examining your statements and see what we can find.

The mere fact that oil companies admit to controlling the price of gasoline is enough to warrant investigation. Multiple companies working together to keep prices artificially high is called price fixing.

Of course oil companies would like to really control the price of gasoline! Why wouldn't they? Why shouldn't they? However, wanting to do something and actually doing it are two far different things, as you know. I'm sure the oil companies would like gas, at retail, to sell for $10. per gallon, just as Ford would like to sell cars for $150,000. apiece, like Rolls Royce does. So what? All gasoline consumers have to do is cut back on their consumption a noticable amount (cut back unnecessary driving and ditch the outsized, gas-guzzling vehicles) and any attempt by any oil company to 'control' the price of gas at the pump goes out the window, fast. There is absolutely no profit on unsold gasoline. It's axiomatic that a decreased demand for gas would certainly help lower the price of gas. I wish we would do this. Fat chance. Instead, we complain and look for oil company 'price-fixing conspiracies' that do not exist. It's frustrating.

Unit, you must know that the U.S. runs as a 'free-market' economy, not a socialist or communist-style, 'controlled' economy. The really big oil companies, many foreign and even those who are domestic, have huge investments, not only in exploration attempts but in the expensive, almost one-of-a-kind equipment used to drill for, extract and transport crude oil. The companies also have to pay fat fees to the governments of the countries where they buy or extract the crude oil they refine and sell. Then, there are the taxes. Lots of taxes. Foreign taxes, federal taxes and state taxes on oil and oil company profits. No, I don't feel sorry for them. I should also state that I don't own any oil company stock nor am I related (or even know) anyone in the 'oil' business, I'm just stating a fact - that oil companies pay a lot of taxes. Not enough for some folks satisfaction, I'm sure, but a lot, all the same.

It's rather obvious that, after 30 investigations over the past 20 years by various government regulatory agencies (during both Democrat and Republican administrations), there is no substantial evidence of oil companies 'fixing' the retail price of gas. If there were, their top executives would have been indicted and likely jailed, if not publicly flogged, by now. The 'price-fixing'/'price manipulation' accusations bandied about (especially on the internet - where there is no accountability) whenever pump gas prices rise significently is baseless. I'm surprised you even bothered to use it, here, as you must realize it is quite unsupportable. However, even people who have the resources to do some real research - not simply comb the internet seeking validation for their assumptions - and should know better, such as Fox News star Bill O'Reilly, apparently still buy into the oil company 'price fixing' myth, despite a severe lack of evidence to back up that claim. Then, they try to cliam that if the FTC doesn't find wrongdoing by the oil companies, they must be 'covering it up' and are deemed 'ineffectual' or even 'corrupt'- realistically translated as: "They don't find what I want them to find". No, I do not attribute these comments to you, personally, Kell. This being the case, I'm not really surprised that many ordinary folks are eager to swallow the 'oil company price fixing' hoax. I am simply disappointed that one of them is you. The oil company executives that testified before that (useless) Senate committee awhile back freely offered to open their books to any government investigation. So much for conspiracies. The whole thing was simply political grandstanding. Do you not realize that? I bet you do.

As one of the industry executives stated, the U.S. has about 2% of the world's oil supply and uses 25% of the oil. Do you honestly think that this does not effect the price of refined gasoline at the pump - or are you one of those folks who assume 'cheap' gas is some kind of constitutional right? Since I assume you know better, then why do you keep insisting that there is a 'conspiracy' to raise gasoline prices ? There is not - and none has ever been demonstrated, much less, proven.

Let's at least try to be realistic, shall we? Gas prices are a 'hot-button' issue and both politicians and the media are quick to jump on any appearance of oil company pricing 'collusion', real or, in this case, imagined. However, the oil & gas business is very tightly regulated in the U.S. and any 'conspiracy' to raise gas prices minus any provable justification would be eventually found out, exposed and severely punished. Despite the claim of a few conspiracy-theory diehards that no indictments of oil company execs somehow 'prove' they must be guilty and are just paying off people in the Bush administration, the fact remains that almost all of the political left-wing - Democrats - which control 49% of the congress - despises 'big oil' (along with Wal-Mart). There is no way they would let the opportunity to make political points with the electorate and at the same time, 'stick it' to oil companies and by (falsely assumed) association, President Bush, slip through theeir fingers, as it were. No way. Even big oil and (purely hypothetical) big bribe money can't block rank political opportunism in this politically divisive era. Besides, not everyone can be 'bought'.

Well, at least you refrained from accusing President Bush of being 'behind' the gas price upsurge and trying to 'enrich his oil buddies' as the loonier internet websites claim. I'll give you that, at least.

There is always a burden of proof to be met in order to take accusations seriously, and in the face of the non-stop excuses spoon fed to the American public amidst world record setting profits, there is simply no room for doubt here.

High gas prices and resultant oil company profits when crude oil delivery is diminished and gas consumption drastically increases, for very obvious reasons, such as high consumption levels, are a simple 2+ 2 equation. Supply (especially constrained with the finite number of refineries in the U.S.) and demand (growing every year as the population grows and affluency grows with it) is also an obvious reason for escalating gasoline prices, which in the U.S., is actually less than what Europeans pay, because in Europe, gas is heavily taxed, thanks to their (failing) socialist economies. In addition, here at home, most state's taxes on gas are unfairly high (43¢ per gallon in my politically 'liberal' state), adding to the price at the pump. This simply enriches hypocritical politicians anxious to spend the gas tax money from over-burdened taxpayers while blaming 'big oil' for high gas prices and holding kangroo-court 'hearings' (press conferences, really) and convincing the gullible that it's all a 'conspiracy'. I am somewhat disappointed that you appear to have bought into this sham. I always considered you a savvy guy.

Sorry, Unit, but I do not take your accusations about oil companiy 'conspiracies' at all seriously. I see lots of 'room for doubt here'. I think that other folks do, too. Well, I certainly hope so.

[Unit 5302]

Don't you find it awfully dark down there with your head in the sand?

[Capri306]

I love lamp.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

Don't you find it awfully dark down there with your head in the sand?

If that puerile comment is the best response you can come up with then I can see that I've totally wasted my time clearly (as well as patiently) explaining why your naive conspiracy theory beliefs regarding higher gas prices and 'big oil' are unsupportable. I won't make that particular mistake, again. Life is too short to waste on this kind of exercise in futility; i.e. trying to present reality to a closed mind.


Very well, Unit 5302, live in your own little world, if you so desire. Believe what ever nonsense you wish to swallow, but please don't always expect to peddle it here with no rebuttal. I cannot abide willful ignorance that ignores facts and reality in order to entertain a patently false premise that feeds into a neurosis apparently being manifested by you and others as victimization-by-big-oil. How sad.

[84LX89GT]

ok here's my take since everyone has had a turn:

oil companies are making record profits while we pay a higher premium.....something is wrong there no matter how you justify it. Profits are caused by selling something at more than it's worth to a LOT of people. oil companies are price gouging plain and simple. they're making MORE even though there's "trouble". i don't know how they get away with it or what it's doing because i'm not an econimic genius who has their cost margins in front of me, but SOMETHING wrong is occuring right now.

my second point:
screw oil companies, i'm going to apply for a permit from the federal government to produce ethanol as a fuel (real easy to do) and when i find a suitable car i'll just bypass the whole fuel cost thing, which is slightly offset by the equipment needed to produce moonshine. I haven't done this yet because i have other financial concerns that take priority over this "hobby".
i may start another thread about the whole ethanol thing if i find motivation, but i think it's the way to go since it's so easy to do and fairly easy to convert carbureted cars and it runs so clean.

[Unit 5302]

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

If that puerile comment is the best response you can come up with then I can see that I've totally wasted my time clearly (as well as patiently) explaining why your naive conspiracy theory beliefs regarding higher gas prices and 'big oil' are unsupportable. I won't make that particular mistake, again. Life is too short to waste on this kind of exercise in futility; i.e. trying to present reality to a closed mind.


Very well, Unit 5302, live in your own little world, if you so desire. Believe what ever nonsense you wish to swallow, but please don't always expect to peddle it here with no rebuttal. I cannot abide willful ignorance that ignores facts and reality in order to entertain a patently false premise that feeds into a neurosis apparently being manifested by you and others as victimization-by-big-oil. How sad.

You're unwilling to even consider the facts in the matter as you've already made up your mind on what the truth is. Why do you want me to ticky-tack away on my keyboard pointing out how irrelevant your arguments are? You've proven you won't listen anyway.

[Phillyfanfrombirth]

In case anyone cares, gasoline futures have plummetted about 15% over the last 3 trading days...

I won't go into the economics of all of this... but just thought it was pretty revealing considering concerns about the industry and supply, that the futures couldn't push anything more than a short lived modest rally.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by 84LX89GT

ok here's my take since everyone has had a turn:

oil companies are making record profits while we pay a higher premium.....something is wrong there no matter how you justify it. Profits are caused by selling something at more than it's worth to a LOT of people. oil companies are price gouging plain and simple.

No, they are not, plain and simple.

they're making MORE even though there's "trouble". I don't know how they get away with it or what it's doing because i'm not an econimic genius who has their cost margins in front of me, but SOMETHING wrong is occuring right now.

Oil company profit margins are at about 6%, far less than other industries, such as MicroSoft. The SOMETHING you refer to is a highly increased demand for gasoline and other oil products while the supply remains static or, as has happened, is interrupted. The oil companies are making bigger profits because - as the availability of gas shrinks and demand increases - they can raise the price - as well as sell more, which is what is occuring...not some 'conspiracy'. Generally, raising the price (of gas) lowers consumption but that hasn't happened, so, the oil companies make more profit. Despite what many folks believe, it's not illegal to make a big profit and there is no law that gas prices can never go up, as some seem to believe.

my second point:

screw oil companies, i'm going to apply for a permit from the federal government to produce ethanol as a fuel (real easy to do) and when i find a suitable car i'll just bypass the whole fuel cost thing, which is slightly offset by the equipment needed to produce moonshine. I haven't done this yet because i have other financial concerns that take priority over this "hobby".

I may start another thread about the whole ethanol thing if i find motivation, but i think it's the way to go since it's so easy to do and fairly easy to convert carbureted cars and it runs so clean.

That sounds like a fantasy but you are free to do whatever you wish in this regard. I hope it works out for you. I really do. I don't like high gas prices, either.