Afford, don't those wrx's and eveloutions cost around 30k?

I

Rather flimsy?? Really?? I agree with alot of what you are saying but those imports don't have the backbone the american muscle does. Calling the mustang a falcon won't hurt our feeling. The thing is.. its Made in America by American owners. Will a Celica ever be worth anything of any value, no. A 95 Supra may, but it was a $40k+ car to start with. A ricer to us is not an import but a stickered up import that is trying to portray itself as being fast. An import with a huge wing and ground effects and/or a huge exhaust tip that pulls up to the light and runs 16sec 1/4 times and sounds like a sick chainsaw. Its not so much the car as it is the attitude the youngsters display. Sure there are some nice imports, no doubt about it. Some have good 1320 times and many handle very well. Will it replace my love for american iron, the torque of a V8.. the sound?? No. Before you think I'm prejudice, I also own a Honda VFR800. The good old USA don't make anything to compare with it but when they do..

You see... well.. to go alittle deeper... I know alot of imports are actually made here and it puts Americans to work, which is good as alot of people are buying the imports anyhow but.. I'd rather the good ol' US of A be owned by Americans as opposed by a Jap company. I'm crazy like that..

Also, I'm not bustin' on your european cars either. They have some fine cars, the 500sl probably being one of my favorite cars but.. we buys what we likes because.. well.. we likes it:)

Heck, my first two cars were rusted out old imports. That was before I could afford one made in the USA. So they do have thier niche.

blake usually if you smoke the leader the rest will leave you alone thats all im saying, they taught us just to get a rise and to see if there fast enough yet to brag to there friends that they smoked a 5.0. but if you dont want to race them then dont, but you can almost bet that they go back to there friendsand say that this guy in the 5.0 is a chickensh*t, and that ricer probably couldnt beat my kids powerwheels with the battery half charged.

Automotive heritage and it's value
 

Originally posted by Sketch :

Quote:

You know, I used to knock Ricers quite a bit, and some I still do. But as far as racing and modding goes, a lot of them have more heart in their car than the agerage classic enthusiast.

I tend to disagree but how much 'heart' any particular modifier has for his car is impossible to quantify so I can find compromise here by simply adding that I believe most car modifiers are fairly equal in their enthusiasm for their respective machines - and all modifiers bow at the altar of speed.

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Many Amrican muscle cars became the hots rods and classics of the world because they were cheap, and heavily customizable to a generation who whad fun with them, and put their heart and soul into them. Ricers do the same thing, just the cars have changed.

I agree completely.

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Most imports are more reliable than American-built economy cars today, so kids buy them, and then spend their after-school time suping them up, and making them their very own modern day hot rods. Just like the past, some are still just flash and fancy, but some are real troopers, and can whoop most classic muscle in a race, be it staightaway or curved track.

Reliability is a debatable issue when you compare an American V-8 to a Japanese 4 and talk about performance. While the Mustang V-8 was made for performance, most standard four-cylinder engines used by 'ricers' were not and adding turbos and nitrous oxide to the four-cylinder engine can often weaken and eventually destroy them while a V-8 has a lot more room for modification and power-adders without destroying itself.

As for the curved track issue: yes, American musclecars were never really designed to be road racers and have always lacked in that area of performance, but few Mustang or Camaro buyers give a rats patoot about circle track racing, anyway. This is a european sport that has never caught on with American street racers, although it is growing as the 'ricers' try to emulate the drifting craze of Japanese racers. In any case, with the right parts, a new-generation Mustang or Camaro can road race all day if necessary but a lighter Japanese car will always have a structural advantage here. I don't see that as critical but simply one of those built-in things that occur when you compare apples (American muscle cars) to oranges (modified Japanese econocars).

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It's not often the car I look at, but how much love and heart the owner has put into it. If I had the '76 Aussie Falcon XC Cobra GT that appeared in Mad Max, and a new Subaru WRX Impreza RT pulled up next to my engine, I'd race him. I don't care about car class or heritage. It's all about the people inside the car that matter.

I agree to a point - a race is a race - but to ignore the obvious rivalary between domestic and foreign muscle on the street would be naive.

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And on the topic of heritage. that's a rather flimsy ground to be standing on. I think we all know that the first Mustangs were nothing more than Falcons with a bit more power, and a better skin. You want heritage, you have to look back to the scrawny little '60 Falcons to see your Mustang roots. Imports have heritage, too. It might not be as long, but it's there. You go out to a rally track, you'll see a lot of Subarus and Audis. Why? They're good cars, can have a lot of power, and have earned professional respect.

Here's where I do disagree, and strongly. Heritage: Americans were modifying and racing (street, salt flats) those old '30's and 40's Fords and Chevys back in the days before World War Two, long before europeans had a clue as to anything other than open-wheel racing by rich dilettantes sponsoring daredevil drivers in expensive automobiles for the amusement of the wealthy. The concept of the 'drag race' is as American as apple pie and the hobby of modifying a stock Chevy or Ford is also a very American pasttime. Both street racing and drag track racing as well as NASCAR all go back to the 1940's and '50's. Europeans had road racing for a long time, back to the teens, but 'the drags' and racing for the quarter-mile are a pure American hobby.

The Mustang was based on the lowly Falcon, as we all know, but that misses the point. All American Muscle cars of the 1960's were simply stock sedans with huge engines, either transplanted in a smaller chassis (GTO) or built for racing (the Ford 427) and then plunked into a Galaxie and modified (at the factory) to run on the street. The original 1964 1/2 Mustang was a genius of design, using available parts and a simplistic mechanical layout over a brilliantly designed new body that offered sports car cachet at a very affordable price. From the lowly Falcon six cylinder to the then-impressive 271 HP V-8, the original Mustang had it all - and everyone could own a Mustang, unlike european sport cars that were either a joke (the hapless MG) or overpriced and unreliable (Jaguar). We could ohh and ahhh at a Ferrari or even a Jaguar XKE but most Americans wanted a Corvette 327 (or later, a 427) or if they couldn't afford one, a Mustang V-8. Many a hit pop song was recorded about American muscle, from 'Rocket 88' in the late 1940's to 'Hot Rod Lincoln' to GTO and 409 back in the early to mid 1960's, an indication of Americas love affair with fast 'street' cars.

America has long had a love affair with cars that europe and Japan never had, partly due to the war devastation and then, high gas prices Americans never had to face. From early on, we've also had a smaller but more intense love affair with fast cars, especially ones that were fast from 0 to 60 and in a quarter-mile run. Japanese and european cars simply do not have that kind of 'heritage'. No lines of muscle cars like America produced in the cheap-gas 1960's era and certainly no love for acceleration as we Americans do. Road racing is great but not the same as a quarter mile race and you need a very well balanced car to do it successfully. American muscle - represented by the Mustang these days - offers great straight-line speed, high end power and a very respectable degree of handling, too, and all for under 30 large at your local Ford dealer. That's 'heritage' and the Mustang V-8 embodies it in a way no 'ricer', no matter how fast it is - can duplicate for the average American.

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Go ahead and disagree if you want, I'm jsut stating what I've observed from years and years of going to car shows, both classic and modern, and talking to owners and modders. Though you might not want to admit it, that next three-year-old WRX that pulls up next to you with the racing mods is some kid's own "Mustang" or "Camaro" of sorts. It's a car he could afford, and has spent his time and energy turning into the ride he wanted, just like you all have done with your various cars.

I've gone to many car shows and spoken to modders too, and I've taken you up on your offer to 'disagree if you want' only to emphasize the thingss that separate American muscle cars from the modified Japanese econocars and 'new' musclecars coming off the Japnese and european assembly lines. I've already stipulated that a lot of young guys are totally into the Japanese cars and have abandoned the American muscle cars, probably for good. I regret that but I've admitted the reality of it, for better or worse. America is a big country and with our once-cheap gas, we built an automobile heritage based on relatively big cars with big engines that run fast. This is why I don't buy the: 'a car is a car' rationale. Times have changed but we're still proud of our long history of modifying cars and racing that some kid's Honda Civic, no matter how lovingly modified or how fast, cannot match in the minds and hearts of many Americans. We can respect them for their performance and the work that went into them, as you ask, but they just can't match the history and the attachment we have with a Ford Mustang. I have little interest in a four-cylinder car as a street racer but lots of interest in a modified Mustang. Maybe I'm a dying breed - but I doubt it. The Mustang is still popular and draws much interest and comments and will be around for years. So will modified Civics and Jettas and Corollas, I'm sure, but the Mustang is still the Gold Standard for many street racers and the car to beat - if you're a ricer. That says it all.

American muscle cars where already hot rods from the factory. With engines like 428s, 427s and even 454s for the chevy guys. Hell ford put out an 11 sec car from the factory back in 64 from the factory. If that is not a hot rod or a muslce car nothing is When a japanesse car maker makes an 11 sec NA car from the factory I will be impressed. Until then they will just be the slow 4 clyc they always are. I just can never see a japanese car ever going for 100k 20 years from now

As far as road racing the boss 302 and the gt 40 did pretty good at road racing as I recall.

rice attitude
 

I will agree with the fact that a lot if import guys have the same pride and work invested in their cars, and to them its the same dedication that a lot of the domestic rodders have. I think a lot of the old hardcore tuners started as domestic folks who got bored and wanted to try modding something else, something different (in the same general spirit as the racers in the 40's previously mentioned) Just a personal theory.
I think that the thing that has held them (Import drivers) back from general acceptance/respect the most has not been the technological side, tho lacking those other 4 cylinders is a bit of a handicap:D, but the taste and attitude of a smaller but obnoxious subculture (i.e. ricers).
These guys have no respect for anything that is not from across the water, and dont seem to grasp basic physics. They are loud in their pronouncements of asian superiority, and have managed to alienate the rest of the car community with their boorish behavior, lack of general taste (How many fog lights do you really need?) and refusal to give respect even in the face of just having their butt whipped. (I dont know about you, but if I get into a race and get my hindquarters handed to me, I'm much more likely to give you a thumbs up when I catch up, than the finger. I've been known to pick races with much faster cars just to see them run. )
Its this attitude that has driven a wedge between the crowds, IMHO. Otherwise, we would just smile and pat them on the head
:rolleyes:
Just my .02,
J

I`m sorry, but I cant feel proud of running a 4cyl honda no matter how much crap he has. Imports are for beaters and trips to the grocery store in my opinion. The thing I hate is seeing fewer and fewer American V 8 cars out there worth running.

4 banger challenge
 

I once apollogized for smoking a 4 banger (was a Toyota Celica with a wing and pipes, thought it was a surpra).

Now, I'll race most anything in a safe situatiion. I do look for cops though. Many cars that I don't immediately recognize can be fast.

I do hope they will give a good rev to get my attention as I'm about half deaf now, LOL.

Rev