Iraqi prisoner abuse
 

What's people feeling about the situation about the Iraqi prisoners being abused and how the guards are being court marshalled?
I think that's total bullshit!! Why should we care about the same people who are killing our soldiers every day!
What about the abuse Jessica Lynch went through? What did America or Iraq for that matter do about that......nothing!!
What about that American civilian who's head got cut off? What did Iraq do about punishing those people....nothing!!
What's our goverment going to do about it.....nothing!!
We should get the hell out of there because they don't seem to want our help.
Iraq is nothing to be losing American solders over...at least not at this point. Sadam is captured and out of power. Job done...let's go home and handle bigger threats....like North Korea
My point is: If anyone feels sorry for the Iraqi POW's then I question his/her loyalty.

I wish they would just leave that country alone. Them towel head bastards wouldn't ever help us if we needed it. Which we won't. I say bomb the whole damn middle east and forget about it. But that would make some other country mad and then they would bomb us. That would suck. It would be cool if we could get away with it.

As a american soilder who has been there for over a year and a deputy sheriff who works in a prison I have my own views. Yes I agree most of the people in the prison would shoot us ina heartbeat if they had a chance. But I still feel that prisoneers should be treated with some respect. I do feel that in america the prisoners have more rights than the guards do allot of times. I feel they should not have the rights our prisoners have. But they still should not have been treated as they were. The job in Iraq for our soilders still there has gotten harder now. The force in Iraq oposing the U.S. being there now have a way of gathering more followers. The Iraq people don't see sex in the same way as the U.S. as we do. They are among the most uptight people I have ever met and they have been know to kill there own children if they get raped as it is sceen as a unaceptible act. So there it is I don't want anyone to think I by any means I am on there side as I am not but no matter who you are you deserve to be treated fairly. (AND THEY DON'T TREAT THERE PRISONERS ANY DIFFRENT)

As far as i'm concerned who gives a ****** about the middle east, get our soldiers out of there, no more need to die for those ungrateful s.o.b's. We should have sent a couple nuc's instead, level the desert, clean it up and call it our own (THANK GOD THEY DON'T ELECT PEOPLE LIKE ME FOR PRESIDENT LOL). Because the desert rats would be gone. With all that has happened starting on 9/11 it scary to think what are kids are in for, from birth these people teach there kids to hate the way the west lives, so no matter how much we try to help them they'll always hate us. And as far as the prisoner go i thought it was funny to see the pics of them being degraded, those soldiers had no problem killing the people in the north or our soldiers so ****** them. They should line them up against the wall and shoot them on national t.v. for us americans to see. Who gives a sh*t about the rest of the world it didn't happen to them it happened to us, they can say how bad the feel but in reality they saying we deserved it. Ever notice how we are the first to help out and then the rest of the world drag's on our coat tail.


LEVEL THE DESERT, CLAIM IT AS OUR OWN, THEN LOWER GAS PRICES

Preach on!!!!!!

OK I WILL............ LOL
How about do you ever notice that when we go to war with other countries after we blown sh*it up we help that country rebuild which cost's us money, If they wnat to ****** with the gods of war, rebuild your own damn country, don't count on the american people to help rebuild, we should just get back on your ships etc. and give them a big ****** you and leave. We should worry about our own country and take what we want, the rest of the planet doesn't matter!

Get our soldiers back to the US and BLOW THE IRAQ BASTARDS AWAY!!!!!

What America is about
 

I strongly supported the liberation of Iraq and I continue to support the democratization of that nation. Yes, it comes at a price - tens of billions of dollars and over 750 American lives lost - so far. The prisoner abuse scandal is a loss for our image but the actions of a few soldiers do not reflect the good work of the more than 130,000 America military personnel serving in Iraq. Much good is happening in Iraq that never gets reported. I know, because I have an acquaintance who is in Iraq helping to organize the prison system into a system that is humane and effective. He knew nothing about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison because he's a contracted civilian and wasn't involved in the military-run portion of the prison facility. What he does know is that 3,000 schools have been opened in Iraq (with more to come) and the Iraqi schoolchildren have new (Arabic) textbooks and supplies, thanks to the United States. Many new hospitals are operating and more Iraqis have electricity than during the Saddam Hussein era. The nation is functioning well, considering the fact that it was in the midst of a war just a year ago and suffered under dictators like Saddam for most of the 20th century. That never gets mentioned in the leftist media that only covers the bad news, with endless photos of abused Iraqi prisoners and grinning morons wearing the uniform of the U.S. military posing with them. That needs to be covered - but not for weeks on end.

As many have mentioned, these were detainees that were suspected of terrorism or terrorist ties, not jaywalkers or someone who was caught speeding. That doesn't make their abuse justified, just a bit more understandable. This national media-driven cry-fest and apology-orgy is getting beyond tiresome. Some American military personnel did bad things to suspected terrorists in their charge. It was found out, announced by the Army Command back in January, investigated and the perps are being Court-Martiled, as they should be. Some higher-ups may also be brought to account before it's over. There was no denial, no coverup. Yes, what happened violated the rules and makes the United States look bad, but we are dealing with it, quickly and efficiently, as we should. Both President Bush and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld have publically apologized to the Iraqi people for what occured in Abu Ghraib prison. We Americans admit our mistakes and deal with them.

Contrast our response to the prisoner abuse scandal to the recent beheading of the American civilian Nick Berg, a Jewish man. The barbaric criminals who did this were proud: praising their god while slashing off Berg's head - and threatened many more such deaths to Americans on the film they made of the execution. While there was some Arab condemnation for the act, it was nothing like the public handwringing we've seen in America because some Iraqi prisoners were humiliated in a U.S. military-run prison. The difference is stark - and so was the media coverage. While Berg's beheading was covered, it didn't stay on the front pages long. The leftmedia couldn't wait to get back to what 'we' did wrong at Abu Ghraib prison earlier this year. The media is attempting to make this look as if the entire war was wrong and in so doing, infer that President Bush was wrong for invading Iraq. He was not wrong.

There is one less large terrorist-friendly country in the middle east and 25 million Arabs have a chance at freedom for the first time in their lives. The U.S. has a base in the region and can withdraw from our shaky 'ally', Saudi Arabia and we'll eventually have another stable oil supply to buy from. Most importantly, Islamic terrorism is taking a big hit in Iraq and is losing, steadily, week by week. Yes, it's slow and tough and expensive in both lives and money, granted, but the war in Iraq is the best thing the president could have done to attack terrorism on it's home base, instead of here, in our cities and front yards. We will prevail, Iraq will be free and the Islamic terrorists have been decimated, if not defeated totally as yet.

America cannot simply 'nuke' other nations that annoy us but we cannot ignore them, either. We did that with Islamic terrorism for far too long. Pretending it didn't exist or didn't matter was a huge mistake. September 11, 2001 and the 3,000 lives lost in Manhattan were a wakeup call that had to be heeded, and President Bush did just that. He recognized the threat to our nation from Islamic terrorism and set about defeating it. He always said it would take a long time, would never be easy and would cost us in lives and money - but that we had no choice. This country cannot sit back and allow faceless terrorists to willfully murder thousands of Americans and do nothing or expect the useless United Nations to 'fix it'. They can't - and they wouldn't if they could. We're basically on our own here. Contrary to the media, we do have allies but America, as the strongest military power on the face of the earth and the richest nation in the world must shoulder the bulk of this burden that we've been confronted with. We're doing so in Iraq and the Islamic terrorist networks are being damaged big-time as they attempt to stop us in Iraq. Our military is effective and while restrained as to prevent civilain deaths or damaging holy sites, we are still killing many terrorists, day by day. We don't hear or read much about that, only the American deaths, which is understandable, but the fact that there are many more terrorists dying for Allah in Iraq than American servicemen should be reported and it usually is not, or minimized.

As I said; I've long been a supporter of the war in Iraq and the presidents policies to fight terrorism. I think George W. Bush has done a fantastic job in the few years he's had to do this. starting from (almost) scratch. I think Donald Rumsfeld, a 72-year-old multimillionaire - who needs his job as Secretary of Defense like a hole in the head - is a great SOD and we're fortunate to have him at this crucial period in our history, along with the rest of the Bush Senior Staff. I pray for every one of the brave men (and women) serving in our armed forces and especially for the servicemen and women in Iraq, doing a magnificent job under the worst conditions. I expect this war will be won and terrorism defeated to the point where it will no longer be a real and present threat to our nation. That may be years away but it will happen and this president - George W. Bush - was the match that lit the torch of freedom in that region.

I salute him - and to end this piece remind anyone bothering to read it that while a few nincompoops may have soiled our image in the middle east for a time, ours is a justifiably proud nation with a history of both ups and downs (WWII, slavery) but ultimately, we are a people of fairness and justice doing much more good than harm in the world, which is why so many immigrants, legal and otherwise, flock here, year after year. 'America' means 'freedom'. We covet no nation's land and we even help those we defeat after a time of war. We are Americans. I remain proud of that despite the leftmedia's attempts to make me feel ashamed of my country. I never have - and I doubt I ever will.

the only reason i say nuke them is because we are going to spend all this time, money and manpower and lives to change what happens in the middle east, but in all fairness it will never change, you watch we'll pull our soldiers out of there but we'll be back in a couple of years dealing with another dictator and the same problems over and over again. no matter what we do it never going to be enough. who really cares about the abuse! these soldiers are over there fighting and dying for us and our freedoms to help another country out, taken away from there family's they have a lot of stress on them let them take it out on the enemy(the people who cause this sh*it in the first place). You watch before this is over we'll be fighting the whole desert. We need to take care of this now and get it over with once and for all, what happens if the next time the sh*t hits the fan over there and we have a pu**y as a president( LIKE KERRY) then what? The other thing the president should do is deport them otu of this country(GOOD OR NOT) so we don't have to worry about the next type of transportation there going to use to kill american's.

ROFLMFAO!!! Well said!

TY
I think there is alot of people here in america that feel the same way but don't what to express it for fear they'll be called a raciest.

Personally, I believe that the liberal American media has blown this out of proportion. What is so 'cruel' about shaming them into submission, to get possibly vital information out of them that could save more lives? I suppose the liberal media deems making suspected terrorist thugs listen to Metallica and watch Sesame Street for hours on end as "cruel torture." I'm not going to agree with treating them as they treat us. Nations are judged by how they treat prisoners, and I just don't think we should lower our own standards too far.

But I digress; if it were ME, I'd be giving out hourly anal/testicular electrocutions, and then broadcast it live to the entire arab population of the middle east, while saying, "this is what we willl do to each and every one of you who have a problem with us and try to hurt us." I wish GW wasn't up for reelection this year, for the sole purpose he could just tell those idiots to go pound sand. I think he probably would, too! :D

Hey, if you want to see some shaming, go to collegehumor dot com. :p I think they should be getting these prisoners drunk, then sharpie and antique 'em.

The war on terrorism in Iraq
 

Originally posted by CHRIS75 :

Quote:

the only reason i say nuke them is because we are going to spend all this time, money and manpower and lives to change what happens in the middle east, but in all fairness it will never change, you watch we'll pull our soldiers out of there but we'll be back in a couple of years dealing with another dictator and the same problems over and over again.

I have to disagree with your presumptions here. I assume that you realize that 'nuking' any country is an absurd plan of action in an age when many nations in that region have nuclear weapons (Israel, Pakistan and India come to mind). The U.S. using even a limited nuclear weapon in Iraq (or any other Arab nation) would have disastrous results and probably serve to launch a nuclear war in the middle east, which would be catastrophic, making such an act by the United States simply untenable.

I will freely acknowledge that the middle east, with it's tribal feuds and centuries-old animosities and wars, is not exactly fodder for democracy and I do not believe we'll see anything close to a liberal democracy in Iraq but we will see a representative government and not a theocracy or a dictatorship - for a number of reasons. The main one being that Coalition forces (mostly American, of course) will be on occupation duty in Iraq for years to come, much as they were in post-war Germany and Japan. They won't be in charge of the government but they will be there to support the elected government from would-be dictators and those who would try to overthrow the elected representatives of the Iraqi people. Many once said that the war-like Germans and insular, aggressive Japanese would never be able to sustain a democracy, either, but they did and very well, too. Almost 60 years after the defeat of the Axis powers; Germany, Japan and Italy are all democratic nations, albeit with somewhat socialist economies. So, I do not buy the claim that the Iraqi people will never be able to sustain a democracy. I believe that the personal and economic benefits of a democracy will be readily apparent to most Iraqis, who are generally a rather sophisticated people, unlike some of their neighbors.

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no matter what we do it never going to be enough. who really cares about the abuse! these soldiers are over there fighting and dying for us and our freedoms to help another country out, taken away from there family's they have a lot of stress on them let them take it out on the enemy (the people who cause this sh*it in the first place).

We only 'care' about the prisoner abuses because how we treat our prisoners are an indicator of who we are. Sinking to the level of barbarians is not how we do things. While most of the abuse was fairly mild as 'abuse' is generally thought of, it was still wrong and unnecessary. 'Taking it out' on your prisoners is the way of a brutal and ignorant people, something the U.S. is not and never has been. I will readily agree, as I've already stated, that the leftmedia has made this abuse scandal far more important than it deserves. I'm sick of the whining about it at this point. It happened. It was wrong. It was reported, investigated (and the investigation announced to the media in January) and the perps were accused and will be tried in a military court. No cover up, no denial, no excuses. Enough already with the endless hand-wringing and whining, which is really just using the scandal to attack both the war itself and of course, the Bush administration.

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You watch before this is over we'll be fighting the whole desert.

I doubt it. Most Arab armies are weak and relatively small. It's terrorists we're fighting, not Arab armies or even specific Arabs. While the U.S. is not loved in the middle east, many of the dictators, kings and Mullahs are not loved by their people, either, and those 'leaders' are worried that they'll be next to end up hiding in a hole somewhere if their people decide they've finally had enough of being oppressed and mistreated by a small group of unelected people. Note how former terrorist-lover Moammar Gadhafi of Libya decided to be a good citizen and willingly divest himself of his chemical and biological weapons and labs and to shut down his nuclear research. That happened because of the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the deposing of Saddam Hussein and his corrupt, brutally oppressive government. No, most Arabs don't really want to fight us, despite their anti-American bluster and bellowing. It's easy to get people out in the street to wave anti-America sighns on cue and yell 'Death to America' but getting the same people to actually put their lives on the line to support some nasty dictator or king is another story and one not likely to play out in the Arab world, especially when they see the positive beneifts of cooperating with the U.S. and establishing a representative government. While many Arab 'leaders' still cling to a fanciful pan-Arab vision, it's becoming clear that as we move further into the twenty-first century, that rancid dream is dead and trying to revive it (via Islamic terrorism) only brings misery and oppression.

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We need to take care of this now and get it over with once and for all, what happens if the next time the sh*t hits the fan over there and we have a pu**y as a president ( LIKE KERRY) then what? The other thing the president should do is deport them otu of this country (GOOD OR NOT) so we don't have to worry about the next type of transportation there going to use to kill american's.

I agree that we need to 'take care of this now' - and that's what we're doing. Unfortuantely, it's not quick and easy - like dropping a nuclear bomb - and Americans tend to get impatient. Still, the fact remains that despite the leftmedia attempting to make it look as if we're losing in Iraq, we most definitely are not. George W. Bush is president, will very likely continue to be president for another four years and in that time, not only will Iraq enjoy the benefits of democracy but the terrorist networks will be reduced to the criminal gangs they always really were and their threat will have diminished considerably by 2009 - when Bush's second term ends.

I tend to agree with the idea of deporting Arabs but if they're here legally that won't be possible short of some kind of martial law being imposed, which could happen if were hit again in anything close to what happened on 9/11. Our borders do need to be tightened considerably but for reasons I cannot comprehend, the government (the Bush administration) doesn't seem eager to do that. I don't see why not. I'm not too worried about another terrorist attack on the U.S. because that will only make things much worse for the terrorists and make President Bush's re-election a sure thing at that point. Of course, terrorists have never been known for their intelligence. They had the Bush administration on the ropes after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal broke - and then they decided to behead an innocent American civilian, Nick Berg and release the video of the act, quickly turning public opinion away from worrying about suspected terrorist prisoners posing naked in embarrassing positions to a national revulsion with Arab terrorists, despite the leftmedias attempts to change the subject back to the prisoner abuse story. That beheading video was powerful proof that our enemy - terrorists - are barbaric and hateful - and they must be defeated.

believe none of what you hear
 

thats what all of you back at home need to be thinking when you watch the news at night. I am a proud member of the Army, serving with 1st Infantry Division, based on FOB speicher in Tikrit. You know the things that my mother describes to me from what she sees and hears are apoling. I feel that the public will never truelly understand the great deeds that my fellow soldiers are doing over here. Since I have been here (feb 04) I have seen things that i never really wanted to in my entire life, but at the same time, I have also been witness to humanity at its best. Mr. 5.0 I applaud you for your thoughts on the war, cause you hit the nail right on the head. My battalion helps 4 local schools in the area. You all should see the smiles on their faces when we show up, it warms ones heart. Not only in the schools do you see the joy that we bring. Out side our gates there are dozens of farmers with a 3k radius, all of them give you a smile and a wave as you drive by. I have personally got to meet a few of them, and they are always eager to come up and shake your hand and practice their english, the stuff they have learned from the soldeirs before us.
It seems to me that the american people have forgoten their heritage. Americans through out the ages have fought and died not only for this country but for all the under privaleged people accross the world. Remember ww1 and 2, korea, vietnam, how about before that, the french revolution. It is the same battle that we're fighting today. These people need our help and yeah its going to be some time until my fellow soldiers and I get to finally leave this place for good. But if thats what it takes then thats what it takes. If we were to pull out now, then this country would fall under termoil and right back into the hands of another dictator, and we just cant have that now can we.
As far as the media trying to crucify the president for the actions of a few, that is the biggest bunch of s**t i ever heard. They keep asking him why were here, why are soldeirs dying? Well were here for all of the people who's lives are better now because we're here. They ask where are the weapons of mass destruction? I tell you they're right here, the two major components needed to make serin gas were found right here on this post.
Americans always talk about supporting our troops, but they don't really know what that means. Blasting the president and his cabinet is not supporting the troops. Trying to throw blame arround is not supporting the troops. I may not be the biggest supporter of the bush adminastration, but a dare the SOB who slanders him to welcome me home, because regardless of my opinions he is still my comander and chief. If there is one thing that this war has tought me this far, it is that America is full of whiners and hypocrites.
just the opinion of one soldier doing his time for his country!

thank god they dont elect some of you ppl to president. If that was the case we would be the equivilant of 1940 Germany! The people who violated those people should be court marshalled... and they are lucky thats all they get... they should be treated the same. yes they are killing soliders dozens by the day.. but that was the choice they made... to defend their country. I am so proud of the army but their are a few bad apples... i think maybe have just been over a little long or maybe just are lead by bad apples. I pray for our army everynight. And not everyone in IRAQ hates our guts.... you ppl watch FOX NEWS way to much. Most are happy to see us coming. My cousin was one of the first to be deployed to iraq. he was a member of the 3rd infantry. I am so proud of him. by what he discribed most iraqs would cheer when they came into the villages... and im glad to know the women have rights now... more than most women in the middle east have ever had. AND AMERICA did that. I wish some of you ppl would sit down and actully talk with a member of the amry or marines or navy... You would know that Iraq isnt what the news tells you. because you know... they make that crap up. I have found fox news to be the worst yet. I have family in the marines as well... when my cousin first wrote us he told us... whatever we did... just dont pay attentino to the news... and thats the truth... DONT

but everyone has their own personal opinon about the war... just wish some werent so tyrannical.:mad:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to be "court-martialed" is simply to be subject to trial in a military court for transgression of military law. Doesn't mean they're gonna be shot or anything. So if these soldiers did something wrong or against the law, they should be tried and if found guilty, punished. No one should be above the law. I don't care who they are. When we justify the abuse of prisoners (whomever they are) the same way that they (the Iraqis) do, we become just like (as bad as) them and therefore CANNOT criticize them for what they do (b/c that'd just make us a bunch of hypocrites, right?). So let's not become barbarians like them and lets do things right. Let's not let our anger degrade our nation into a big uncivilized street gang (with a ton of money). :D

I have to agree with mr 5 0 and stanggirl. As good as just nuking the entire area might sound theres no possible way the US could do that without every other country in the world severing thier ties with us because we would look like the tyrannical beast country that Saddams Iraq used to be. Not only that but it would prompt even more terrorist attacks from all over the world. Remember not all terrorists who dont like America are from the middle east ;)

I am in full support of this war, always have been but destroying the entire region is not an answer. Also I feel the prisoner abuse should be punished by those who did it as they have given the US a bad image to the iraqi people.

Oh God yes, it's a great thing I'm NOT in charge! :p

I'd run it like 37 A.D. Roman Empire, though. :cool:

Actually conviction by court martial is the same as a federal conviction. Maxium punishments depend on what they convicted of.
-Ryan

I get tired of hearing people saying "America holds itself to highter standards than the rest of the world"
Don't get me wrong...I'm all American through and through but that statement is total bullshit.
If we(americans) have higher standard then why:

1) is the amount of justice one receives proportional to how much money he/she has. Any high profile case serves as a perfect example of this.

2) Why do we pour millions of dollars into foreign countries to rebuild them when we have homeless people right here in America?

3) Why do farmers destroy crops to create a loss and gain profits from that loss?

4) Why is America allowed to have as many nukes as they want but will not allow any others to have them or we threaten to "disarm" them?

I can go on and on but that's just an example.
I believe America is the best country in the world and the mightiest but we are not without our flaws.

We are not "above" abusing prisoners. We are all human beings. How can anyone say that when Americans kill each other every day?
Maybe we should spend more time fixing our own problem rather than trying to fix everyone else's.

On having 'higher standards'
 

Originally posted by 82 GT :

Quote:

I get tired of hearing people saying "America holds itself to highter standards than the rest of the world" Don't get me wrong...I'm all American through and through but that statement is total bullshit.

I disagree with that conclusion.

What is meant by the statement that America holds itself to a higher standard than the rest of the world refers to the fact that it is not our policy to mistreat prisoners in a war and that we generally are helpful and friendly to those whose lands we occupy, as in Iraq. The vast majority of other nations have no such 'standards' and simply murder prisoners or really torture them before killing them. In addition, our justice system - as in Iraq - reports abuses, investigates them fully and punishes those found guilty, after a trial. Other nations hide their crimes or just ignore abuses. A look at history will verify this, as in World War II when American forces liberated Europe and found thousands of starving people in German concentration camps or more recently, over 300,000 bodies in mass graves, some children, in Saddam's Iraq. Americans do not do this. That is why we make the statement (and get so angry at idiots who make us look like liars) that we hold ourselves to a higher standard. We do.

To respond to the other questions you raised:

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If we(americans) have higher standard then why: 1) is the amount of justice one receives proportional to how much money he/she has. Any high profile case serves as a perfect example of this.

That is not always true and you should not use highly-publicized celebrity criminal cases on TV as the basis for making such a broad indictment of our justice system, one of the best in the world but - being run by human beings - not a perfect system. It's still better than most. One of the problems is that on the whole, the sheer volume of criminal cases outrun the various local, state and federal court' ability to handle them and so, plea-bargains are made and 'pure' justice is not always done. In addition, the vast majority of crimes committed in America, as everywhere, are by poor people, obviously, and they cannot afford high-powered attorneys and instead, get inexperienced and/or overworked Public Defenders who hardly know their case. That can result in bad outcomes for the defendent but I believe that the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals are guilty, even when represented by Public Defenders with weak defenses.

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2) Why do we pour millions of dollars into foreign countries to rebuild them when we have homeless people right here in America?

Foreign Aid is tiny portion of the total federal government budget in any one year. While some of the aid is military, most is humanitarian; food and medicine, etc. Not a bad thing for the richest nation on the planet to engage in and another reason why we talk about holding ourselves to a higher standard. As for the homeless, they are a tiny number (about 3 million in a nation of almost 300 million) and most are either drug or alcohol addicted or simply mentally incompetent. Some work at menial jobs but can't afford housing. The federal and state government spend millions every year on various aspects of homelessness and many private charities also help a lot of homeless people. The number of homeless in America has dropped substantially over the past 20 years but homeless advocacy groups tend to downplay that fact. In the final analysis, some homelessness cannot be helped by anyone because the homeless person needs to seek help and some do not want it. That noted, this country has many programs in place to help the homeless. Ending foreign aid would not help it one iota. Linking the two is a non sequitur.

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3) Why do farmers destroy crops to create a loss and gain profits from that loss?

Because they have a very strong lobby in Congress that allows this madness to continue. In fairness, America feeds not only itself but a large part of the world every year. Truth is, we're just too productive and many farms should go out of business - but they don't. Kept alive on federal money long after they have ceased their rationale for existing.

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4) Why is America allowed to have as many nukes as they want but will not allow any others to have them or we threaten to "disarm" them?

First: no one 'allows' us to possess nuclear weapons. The U.S. possesses what we feel we need for national defense. The difference is that America has had massive amounts of nuclear weapons and since August 1945, has never used them. We have long proven that we're responsible where nuclear weapons are concerned. Do you think Kim Jong Ill of North Korea is sane and responsible? I don't...and his country has a nuclear weapons program running right now. I'm not so comfortable with Pakistan and India having nukes, either. Ot Egypt or many other nations that now possess nuclear weapons. The point is that America has shown great restraint with our nuclear weapons while some other nations leaders are clearly untrustworthy and dangerous with the same weapons. Like a four-year-old running around the house with a loaded gun. Nothing may ever happen but if it did, people could die. With a dangerous 'leader' having nuclear weapons capability millions could die should they decide to launch a nuke...anywhere. That's too dangerous to ignore and we have a responsiblility to try and contain those weapons and keep shakey dictators (as in North Korea) from having them. It's simple common sense, not some sinister plot to disarm the world.

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I can go on and on but that's just an example. I believe America is the best country in the world and the mightiest but we are not without our flaws.

I thank you for your patriotism and agree that we have our 'flaws'. I doubt anyone ever said we didn't.

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We are not "above" abusing prisoners. We are all human beings. How can anyone say that when Americans kill each other every day? Maybe we should spend more time fixing our own problem rather than trying to fix everyone else's.

This nation does far more than most any other to help other people around the world, every day, both privately and via the government. Our foray into Iraq is a national security matter and we're doing a good job there in building up that nation into something that will make every Iraqi proud and offer respect and freedom to all of it's people, including formally oppressed women in a nation that fairly represents it's people. Nothing to apologize for. That some morons acted like brutes is a shame and has given us a black eye in some quarters but overall, America military people have performed exceptionally well in Iraq and have made me proud to be an American, today and every day.

No one ever said America was flawless... can you name a country that is flawless... it doesnt exist, and if it did... we would all be there right now.

The soldiers that treated the prisoner wrong should be punished. I was invovled in capturing quit a few iraq soldiers and sometimes it can turn into a bad situation, but there is no reason to ever strip them down naked like in those pics. There are quidelines that the army puts out on how to treat prisoners and use of force. As long as you follow them there will be no problems. The soldiers being punished didn't not follow proper procedure. I can't believe those idots took pics of it I mean how stupid are you to take pics of yourself doing criminal acts. I just hope they don't get punished more because of it being world wide news.

Nice to hear from someone who was there and have a idea of what is hapening there. I spent a year in Iraq and got to know allot of the people they like the US and thank us for what we do. We had iraq men working for us making 4 dollars a day for hard labor. This allowed them to make in one day what they made in a week working at the base I was stationed at before we came over. Can you imagine making 4 dollars a week and not being able to say anything because you would get killed. I still think the prisoners should have been treated with more respect but still as prisoners or war as they were mostly the ones against us.

69fastback and carlos nailed it. I was up at Freedom lake (formerly known as Saddam's lake) for 3 days of R&R and I talked to a high school teacher who made 7 dollars every three months. At the time that wasn't enough to buy a carton of cigs which would cost you 10 dollars. Of course we came under mortar attack the first night, so much for R&R.
-Ryan

Just think about this for a second before you say how nice those prisoners should be treated.
First of all... you don't how the **** is good or bad over there.
Second....most of those prisoners that you are feeling sorry for have most likely killed a fellow soldier of yours or quit possibly someone that was a friend of yours. Think about that.

I also believe that our military should be divided into two seperate parts. One for the heavy combat, air strikes etc...and the other part that's designed for peace keeping operations...like we are trying to do now and not really geared for.
You can't expect a man conditioned for combat and expect him to be friendly towards that same people he's trying to kill!!
Not to get off the subject, but another policy I think we should put into effect is this: The only people that should have guns in Iraq right now are U.S and allied soldiers. Anyone else with a weapon should be considered hostile.
A policy like that would keep a lot more troops alive.

the problem with what you said 82 GT is that over 60% of those in prisons are actually innocent. they just may have been at the wrong place at the wrong time or they were "suspicious" It is not necessarily true that every prisoner over there has tried to kill an american, though im sure a few have

Hey 82 the last post is true in arerica you have to be proven guilty of a crime to be in prison. Over there during this time a lot of the people in there are suspected to be guilty. So there are allot of people that shuldn't be in there. I also know that the guards are like the rest of the military each have there own jobs to support the war. The guards jobs mostly were to guard they didn't go around arresting all these prisoners. I still state that they shouldn't be treated like roality but like a human. I think the US should treat them as we would want our prisoners treated. We could argure all day that they don't treat our prisoners properly and we don't. But everyone knows almost all wars are political and we need the support of other countries and our own citizens. The facts are this has hurt our relationship with the citizens and the countries helping us. They had started pulling out some countries already before I had left. I talked to the soilders from a few of the countries and they talked about this prisoner abuse in a very negitive way. Yes everyone says well we are the US and don't need any help but all the help we get saves our solders allot of time there.

I must applaud MR 5 0's long, but accurate reply. I am also a soldier in the army, full time Wisconsin Army Guard. We are currently mobilizing one of our infantry units for service in Iraq. The scandal at the Iraqi prison both sickend and infuriated me, both as a soldier and an American.

Just because other countries in the world operate that way, we don't. A small number of misguided and morally weak soldiers has effectively undermined much of the U.S. credibility and has caused significant stratigic damage to this country's fight on terrorism.

That being said, the U.S. military force will continue to do a damned good job, do the right things and finish the job and get home. Iraq will be better for it, its people will be better for it and the world will be safer for it.

I despise the media. Much of the continued backlash is directly related to the fact that the media continues to focus so much effort on this story and by doing so has significantly contributed to undermining the war effort. In essence they are bringing comfort and aid to the enemy's war effort. The soldiers and military leadership directly involved in the prison mess have been and will be punished appropriately by the military system. Let the system do its job and lets move on.

Tank

I can see your point but even if I did view it your way it would be damn near impossible now ever since they cut that American civilian's head off.
I'm sure you can understand how that barbaric act infuriated most Americans. When I heard about that, the slightest respect I did have for Iraq is completely gone.

You know what though? We have our special forces over there doing "dirty deeds", right now, that 99% of us will never hear about.
It's just that I would feel better if I could hear some of those stories. Since America doesn't hear about these secret "dirty deeds" then we tend to believe that Iraq is getting away with some of this bullshit.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfinne...s/bo040510.gif

It's pretty sad when the truth has to come from a daily comic strip...

The first thing I thought when I heard and read about the abuse in Iraq was "That's it?". Let me tell you all something. What we do to prisoners in the US is worse than anything I have seen in the papers going on in Iraq.

Whoever said prisoners here have rights is so far off base it isn't even funny. Perhaps people like Martha Stewart, who are in federal country club prisons, have it like this. Try spending a little time in a State or County jail. I think you would see things a whole lot different. Stop believing what the lying liberal media tells you.

And, whoever stated you have to be convicted of something to be in jail here: Please! :mad: You need to have your facts in order before you make statements like that. There are PLENTY of people in jail here who have been convicted of nothing. I myself was in jail for 4 months, only becuase a judge said that is where I should be. I was never convicted of anything, since I never DID anything.

If our hearts should bleed, it should be for the cruel treatment of our own people.

sorry another inocent person wrongly stuffed in jail. I hear this every day. You had to have done something wrong to be there. You also would have to be alseep your whole stay to not see the rights you had. The size of your cell, The amount of food, the amount of light, fresh air is all regulated. So yes if you get to spend time in jail you have rights mabye not the ones you feel you deserve like to get off scott free or strippers and beer in jail but you had rights. I gurentee you didn't get beat in jail every day or laid in a pile on top of other men. This is what makes america great is our rights to be treated fairly (like everyone else in the same place). I will not sit and say there isn't anyone in jail that shouldn't be there but I talk to 100's of inmates everyday and they all say they did nothing wrong ok not true

Let me ask you something... What do you base your statements on. What you have seen on TV? What other people have told you?

It is interesting to me you can comment on something you have never been through. You only recite the same statements that I have seen on TV, and the news my whole life. This fabrication that the police and courts are never wrong, and that anyone who is arrested, and/or is in jail MUST be guilty of something.

The statement that someone "has" to be guitly of something to be in jail, has to be the most ignorant statement I have ever heard, and I hear it alot. Now that DNA testing is being accepted as evidence, how many "guilty" people have been proven innocent of crimes they were accused of? I suppose they are guilty of something too.

How many people here have had traffic tickets, and went to court? And how many people have had the police outright lie to the judge? Happens all the time. The police have NO PENALTY for lying. They do it all the time. And I am not aware of 1 case ever of a police officer being fired for lying.

I am going to make this very short, because if I told everything, this would be the longest post ever on this BBS. What happened to me was simple. I was married, my X wife was harming my child (2 at the time). I was going around to her freinds and family, told them I was going to divorce her, and asked them to help me get custody. I still have the written statements that some of them wrote. Next thing I know one day I am at home (on a sunday evening), my X wife is not at home, as usual, and next thing I know the door opens and 4 cops are standing in my living room. This one tall cop asks me for my ID. I always try to cooperate with the police, even though I hate them, so I comply with this. He writes down some stuff in his book, then asks me if my X-wife can take some stuff. I said "no, she can't take anything". Then they left. I never asked them what they wanted, although I just figured she was leaving (and had found out what I was doing) and wanted them there for some reason.

3 days later (I have not heard from my X wife at all) I am cooking dinner, and I get a knock at the door. I open the door and the same cop and another guy comes in. He tells me he has to take me down to the police station, and asked me if I have $50. I say no. He tells me to call someone and have them bring $50 to the station. I called my dad (who is about an hour away) and told him to come and bring $50. On the drive, the tall cop explains to me that I am under arrest for "domestic violence" and that it is all just BS and I will be out as soon as someone brings $50 for the bail. So they let me sit in the station after doing fingerprints and all that until my dad comes down there. When I leave, they give me this piece of paper from the court that says I cannot contact to my x-wife and make me sign it.

2 weeks later my phone rings, remember, I have not heard from my X wife. It is her. Although my Lawyer has told me not to speak to her, I like a fool do it anyhow (this would be the biggest mistake of my life). She tells me she is sorry for calling the police on me but she was scared I would take our daughter and bla bla bla (which I would have). She asks me if she can come home and all this. I told her no, that I was going through with the divorce. She got mad, so I told her not to call me back and hung up. 20 minutes later the police call me back, and tell me I am going to be arrested (call me and tell me ???) for calling her and threatening to kill her????? I told them I had the caller ID that showed she called, and "I RECORDED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION". They then said that it would be up to the judge what would happen (at this point I was being charged with assult and battery, forgot to mention that).

A few days later, I am sitting around the apartment watching TV, and my door is broken off the hinges. Next thing I know I am on the ground with a 9 pointed at my head. The cop who is sitting on my back asks me my name. When I tell him that, he asks me if I have $50,000 dollars for bail. I say (gun still at my head) "yea, I got that right over here, by the Rembrant". So then he tells me I am going to jail. I ask to see the warrant, which I am told "We don't have to show it to you". I then ask him what I am being held for, and he says "the judge didn't say. He just put out a warrant". I was never read my rights either. I was hancuffed, and drug (not walked) out of my apartment, in shorts, with no socks, in the middle of winter. On my way down, I notice my X-wife and her family are outside on the sidewalk watching me. I ask the cop what they are doing there. He told me to mind my own business. In the car, the same cop (not the tall one, who was cool) told me "Mark told us what you did to his sister. We are going to take care of you". In case you are wondering, Mark is my X-wife's brother, who is a county sherriff. When I get to the police station, I was hit several times by the cop. Whether or not you belive me, I don't care, it is the truth. Then I was thrown in a cell, with no blanket, left to sleep on a block of cement. I was there about a day. No food the entire time either.

Next day I am taken to court. I was drug in front of the judge who is handling the "assult" case. Mind you, I am in shorts, no shoes or socks, in the middle of winter, without a shower (ever wonder why people on trial look so bad, now you know!). I looked pretty bad. Then the judge asks me "why are you calling and threatining your wife". I told him "the constitution says I have a right to counsel, I want to talk to my lawyer". The judge said "Don't go quoting the constitution in my courtroom!". He asked me again, and I said "She called me.." he cut me off and said I was a liar and this and that and that he could tell I was gulity (what does that mean?). Then he starts asking me about my tattoos. Let me ask you this: What the hell does that have to do with anything!!!!!!! I told him that me having tattoos has nothing to do with anything. He told me to shut up and that I would held in jail until April 16 which is when my trial was for assult. I was in county jail for about the next 2 months or so...

I can go on and on forever, but there you go. To sum it up real quick, I was tried, and found guilty on NO evidence whatsoever other than my X-wifes word. That's all it takes to get convicted, is one witness saying you did it. And I suppose you think a witness can't lie? Forget I have everything on tape. That I can prove what I am saying is true, I couldn't use it, as I did it without her knowledge. Oh, and there were no marks on her either. How do you try and kill someone and leave no marks? She said I choked her and punched her and threw her down. I would think there would be some marks, don't you?

Oh, and I have a recording of her on tape, talking to a friend, admitting she lied, and did it to "get even" with me and make sure I did not get custody. Would you like me to digitize it so you can hear? Oh, I guess I made that up too, since I must have done something wrong!

Let me say something before someone says I am lying. Why would I come here and type all this? I have no motive, this was all 7 years ago and is long done. I gain nothing. In fact, you are all probably wondering now if I am in fact a beater of women. So again, if I did this, why not keep my mouth shut? I have a box at home, full of papers and stuff from my ordeal. This is for my daughter when she turns 18. I want her to know the truth about her mother and the lies she is being told about me. I can prove everything I say to her. I have the tapes, the papers, courtroom transcriptions, police reports, everything.

On to your second statement, about how nice and cushy our jails are. Try spending some time there. I don't think you would make it too long!

Let me start. I was denied food for 3 days (the crap they call food). I was beaten by guards at least 7 times I can think of for no reason. I was threatened with death by guards sever times. Several times i saw inmates stripped and humiliated (I assume most prison guards are homosexual based on the number of times they did this, and seemed to enjoy it). I saw them rub an imates face in his own vomit after he threw up, then made him sleep in it. I saw them beat several people for taking back (no freedom of speech in jail). I never talked back or was rude to any of the guards, I did as I was told. Didn't help, they enjoy pushing people around. I guess you think I am lying about all this too.... Well, believe what you want.

As far as regulations on jails, thats all nice and pretty. However, who is going to turn them in if they don't do what they are suposed to? You think anyone is going to believe the criminals? I have seen it firsthand. Call me a liar or whatever you want. I know what I saw. And it was very different than the rosy picture you paint. And what I have saw from Iraq isn't any worse than what I saw being done here.

Carlos: let me be clear about something. I have nothing against you. However, you do not have the facts straight. If you want to think our prisons are country clubs (and I am sure the ones that the rich go to are) then you are just wrong. I once believed as you. I thought everyone in jail deserved it. That jail was a free ride. I considered myself (and still do) a law and order conservative. However, what I saw changed that. Believe me or not. I can't make you believe me. But I hope, and this is not some BS line, that you never wind up in jail. You will find out that I am not joking. I don't wish that on anyone.



Humiliating people and beating them isn't going to "change" them. We don't seem to want to tolerate this in Iraq, so why do we tolerate it here?

Oh, here is my tattoo. Please tell me how this makes me a criminal.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfinne...ics/Tattoo.jpg

I base my opionions on the fact that I work every day in a jail. I was in Iraq and watched allot of the arrest take place. Few of the ones I witnesed were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also stated there are cases of people being wrongly jailed and I feel allot of people are given sentences that are unfair. I don't give out the sentences. My job is to supervise the inmates while they are in our county jail. I want to also state I don't have a problem with inmates I get along with most of them beter than the other deputys. Most are there for minor stuff and are really nice guys. My whole statement is this there are allot or rules and regulations the jails are soposed to abide by. I also know there might be jails that don't do this. I am sorry if you were wrongly jailed but I wasn't arguing with you about that. I just feel that all people in any type of prison or jail should be treated with a certain level of respect. I don't think they should be as strict as the jails in the US are soposed to be. What I was saying is in the US someone can't be jailed because there brother is a suspected criminal and there they can be arrested for questioning to determine if they are too. I wish I could say the system is perfect but as long as we got people here and there who don't abide by the rules in the prison system there will be people who fall through the cracks. I am sorry if I sounded like a ass hole just wanted to state my opinion which is probably wrong but I stand by it and as far as your tattoo looks fine to me I didn't say if you had tattos you were a criminal. Sounds like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and you did say you did answer the phone. By the way what state are you in as the laws here might vary a little

My only comment on this thread is that I know Dr. Weir personally. In fact, he lives 15 minutes from me and we have been good friends since high school. I can personally vouch for everything he said. His story is completely true. His x-wife and her brother, the police officer and his cop co-worker buddies, screwed him bad. Although he is a somewhat strong willed and an opinionated person (so what?), I have never seen one bad or violent or even dishonest bone in his body. He's one of the cooler people I know in life. Also, we are in Michigan, which has some of the strongest (worst) domestic violence laws in the country (i.e. if she says you did it... you are guilty until proven innocent for all intense purposes).

FYI: I have a great respect for law enforcement in general and believe the majority of those who do that job are honest and dedicated. However, in this case there definitely was a serious abuse of power and position for personal purposes by his x-wife's brother, and some others in the system.

I, myself, never had any doubts whatsoever about Dr. Weir's story. I believe it 100% and I don't even know the man.
I know we are getting off topic here, but I want to add my 2 cents on this matter.
Dr. Weir , your ex did that only so that you couldn't get custody of the kids when you filed for divorce. That was the whole purpose behind that stunt she pulled.
Domestic violence laws are not any better in Pa. In fact, I'm willing to bet they rank right up the with Michigan.
Let me tell you a quick story about my one friend and his now ex-wife.
One night they had a really bad argument. She got really pissed off and came after him with a knife from the kitchen!!
Not wanting to confront her or do anything stupid he ran out the door only in his underwear and came to my house at about 2am.
He told me he needed to borrow a pair of pants and shirt so he could go to the police and report her.
He went to the station, told his story and returned home with the officer.
His ex is one of those people who can suddenly get a nose bleed.
My friend and officer go into the house where she is crying and upset(all fake) and tells the officer he hit her causing her nose to bleed. The cop then turns to my friends and says "Since she's bleeding and you're not, I'm going to have to arrest you!"
He took him off to jail that night and he spent the next 24 hrs. there until his dad came and bailed him out.
Can you believe that crap!! He did go to court but I don't remember what happened there besides the fact he got screwed even more. This happened quite a number of years ago.
I honestly believe that women have way too much power anymore and some reforms are needed.
Women will claim the opposite but we all know that's just not true....right guys?

Ouch. Truth can hurt sometimes.

BTW, I don't disbelieve anything you said about your ordeal with the X. What I don't understand is why reciprocate action was not taken against her and the officials who treated you unlawfully. Maybe you tried and decided it wasn't worth it? I dunno.

Prisoner abuse: domestic and foreign.
 

Abusing prisoners, in an American jail or an Iraqi jail, by civilian guards or miliary guards is morally and legally wrong but, sadly, all too common, as Dr. Weir has clearly testified. His story is chilling and belies any comforting notions that: 'as long as you don't break any laws you have nothing to worry about from the police'. If only. I'll add that while Dr. Weir was clearly mistreated by the police and the courts, which is inexcusable, he was open enough to freely admit that he made a gigantic mistake in talking to his obviously vindictive wife - with a brother in local law enforcement - after being visited by the police and had he not done so, - maybe - his ordeal could have been avoided. Maybe not. At this late date neither he or any of us will ever know. I'm also quite sure others could add their own horror stories to his on this BBS.

I agree that the police and courts, who once ignored womens domestic abuse complaints or treated them as minor, have gone way too far in the opposite direction and now make otherwise decent men criminals and ruin their lives because a jealous or vindictive soon-to-be ex-wife cries and lies on cue to the police and the judge. It's not right and this abuse of men in divorce cases must be curbed. Not wanting to be married anymore, often for good reasons, shouldn't end up putting a man in jail and bankrupting him.

That stipulated, I maintain that the Iraqi prisoner abuses by American military personnel at Abu Ghraib prison have been wholly overblown by a (mostly) liberal media in order to inflict as much harm to the reputation of our military as possible with the additional goal of decreasing American citizens support for the occupation of Iraq and by association, the president and hs chances for re-election. In short: it's political. Humiliation, even male sexual humiliation by female soldiers is not 'torture' and these were not all innocent people brought in to the prison for nothing. There is a low-level war going on in Iraq and intelligence is sorely needed by the Coalition forces to find and eliminate the residual terrorists still trying to kill Americans and subvert the birth of a democratic Iraq. No, that excuses nothing illegal but it does put what happened in some sort of context, a context that has been missing in most of the media stories that continue to this day, even though the abuses happened over six months ago and have long since been stopped, investigated, the offenders charged and military trials scheduled with one accused soldier already sentenced to jail time.

I use to know the former Garrison Commander of the military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and I can tell you that he was a straight shooter who brooked no abuse of prisoners or any other illegal actions under his command. He's now a Sheriff in a bedroom community of a large midwestern city and even there, he runs a tight ship - but a clean one. Maybe he's the exception but most law enforcement people I've dealt with (not many, to be honest) have been O.K. and not sadistic manaics or Nazi wannabe's, although I know these kinds of people do exist in some of the larger police departments. Police work is necessarily negative in nature and a tough job that's not for everyone, obviously. I assume being a prison guard is worse. I can't imagine being locked in with a bunch of criminals day after day, no matter how much it paid. With those observations, I'll leave the thread and stand by my previous comments, while thanking others for theirs.

Re: On having 'higher standards'
 

While I agree that it is not ALWAYS true, it is mostly true. More often than not, money plays the biggest part of any case. I have a friend who was charged (I cant remember the actual charges brought against him) for running over his x-girlfriend (she didnt die, and he is a dumbass for doing it). While in court, throughout various stages of his trial, he spent about $12k trying to stay out of jail. That money drastically reduced his sentence to 1 year (he did 6 months cause of 2 for 1 in county here). If he had another $1k to spend at the time of the trial, he would have never spent a day in jail.

As far as being in Iraq to fight terrorism, that is all fine and dandy, AFTER we eliminate the people who came here and crashed our planes into the towers and the pentagon. I say we should have gone into Afghanistan with the force and intention that we went into Iraq with, as long as you want to use the war onterror as your justification for the Iraq war. Saddam has never came here, and killed thousands of citizens, on our land. He didnt blow up our ebassies. He didnt put a hole in the side of the USS Cole. Guess who did, the towlie who is still living in the mountains of Afghanistan. I say we should have eliminated the real threat to our freedom.

As far as the abuse goes, boo freakin hoo. Cry me a freakin river man. Aside from the guy with the electrodes on his hands (puttin god only knows how many volts into him) that the "abuse" is well overplayed. Forcing them to listen to Metallica and watch puppets. Ya, ounds real painful. Stripping them down and humiliating them, ooh, real abusive there. If those actions provided information that was otherwise un-attainable (without beating them to near death) then so be it. Get over it and move on. Dont prosecute the soldiers for using non-violent methods of getting information, applaud them. We could have beaten their fingers, toes, and other body parts with sledge hammers till they opened their mouths, but we didnt. We instead subjected them to music, and naked men. Ouch.

I'm curious to see what Japan thinks of this prisoner "abuse" after
how they abused American and Phillipean soldiers during WWII
Anyone that know their history, knows what kind of shit they pulled with POW's.