Need a classical guitar. Which one?

Fox Body · 09-10-2001, 09:04 PM

Fellow stangers, the ones that play guitar, throw me some advise.

I got a steel stringed and electric, I REALLY need a classical. So then, these are the criteria:

1) Out of sound quality from 1-10, I need 8.
2) Price $700 +/- $100 for guitar and hard (wood) case.
3) Good looking from 1-10, I need 6-7.
4) Playing/fingering ease/quality (I hate too much action and no buzzing-- other than one any simple intonation or truss rod adjustment won't fix) must be > 9.

---Don't need acoustic pickup, equalizer, cutaway, or anything like that on it.

So what brand would you suggest? Brands to shy away from? I'm looking at Alvarez. Don't have to be brand new as long as in good shape.

Let me know what you think and if a moderately high quality classical guitar + hard case can he had for the price listed above. *Let's see if anyone has any idea what I'm talking about*

-----------------------------------------
351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback
Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit
Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft
2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters
Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II
Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s
14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX begins!!!

"Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

tireburner163 · 09-10-2001, 10:19 PM

I have a friend who is REALLY into guitars, I'll ask him for you. I play a little. I've always like the vintage fender telacasters

------------------
THE SLO PONY
1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Mods: yanked air-intake silencer Future mods: V-8 or turbo 2.3 swap.

If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

09-11-2001, 01:35 AM

a good friend , of mine has , a 1958 feneder which he said i could have, when he's gone. i don't want it that bad! but one day it , will be mine ,i just hope not soon , at all it's they same style as the one on ted nugent's cat scratch fever ,album ,or oop' free for all album ., damm memory loss doh! it is a sweet piece of work but as i said before i am in no! hurry to get it, i don't know much about newer guitar's it's been a while but , good luck i'm no help i know.

------------------

matt cook · 09-11-2001, 08:09 AM

I have always had a thing for Yamaha Guitars - the quality from low $ to high $ is outstanding. I have a Yamaha classical that is at least 30 years old that is just awesome.

They get my vote!

------------------
1982 Mustang GT

84LX89GT · 09-12-2001, 03:12 AM

My personal favorite is Martin guitars. They have a nice mellow tone and are easy to play. I had a yamaha middle of the line classical guitar and didn't like it much, it was kinda hard to play. I gave that away to my dad, and i used to play my (now ex) girlfriend's Martin guitar, and i was impressed. You should be able to go to a guitar/musical store and test out any of the guitars that you may want to buy. I hope you find what you're looking for,

Fox Body · 09-12-2001, 04:28 AM

Yeah I went to test drive some classical guitars the other day (hey I was willing to spend over $200 for something other then my car!! *amazed*). One I really liked b/c it sounded WONDERFUL, but the visual quality of its woodwork was below my criteria (it looked cheaply done). The other guitar I considered that day looked good enough, but didn't sound as good as I would have felt satisfied to buy.

I'll keep looking and keep what you guys said in my mind. Thanks for your input.

-----------------------------------------
351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback
Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit
Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft
2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters
Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II
Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s
14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX begins!!!

"Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

2FastLX · 09-12-2001, 12:25 PM

I have to agree with 84LX89GT. Martin all the way. You won't find a nicer guitar for $4500. Oh wait, you said $700

They do some in the $1000 price range too I guess.

If you can find a used Martin for the price (highly doubtful) by all means GET IT! I was at a small music shop and picked up a $700 "copy" of a Martin and when I played it I couldn't believe the sound compared to my Fender Acoustic. The room I was sampling this guitar in was full of Martins that said "DO NOT TOUCH!!!!!". So, when the store owner wasn't looking I swapped out the "copy" for the real thing and kept picking thinking he'd never notice. As soon as I hit the first string it was like a sound from the heavens surrounded me. UNBELIEVABLE! The store owner looked up and I was busted. But he never came to throw me out. I guess he likes finger style on a nice guitar as much as I do

The hole point to this story is 1st of all, if you have never experienced a Martin guitar, DO IT! 2nd, go out and PLAY a guitar and choose one that sounds good to you. Don't buy it because of a name. Alvarez will be one of my choices, but it's up to you what sound you like best and how the guitar frets will be different for everyone as well. Play em all.

If you find an old guitar that is in mint condition - beware. Find an old guitar that is all beat up and that's the one that will probably be the better choice. If it hasn't been played, it must not play well.

Good luck.

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

fiveohpatrol · 09-12-2001, 01:48 PM

i agree with 84Lx89GT and 2FastLX on the Martins because I happen to own one, as does my father, they are however expensive, but in music just like car parts you get what you pay for, mine is on the middle-lower end of their line its the DM acoustic, lists for $900, it sounds awesome, my fathers is a 150th anniverary D-28 which sounds like heaven, its freakin incredible, it lists new for $2500 i believe, his was appraised at $4000, im not sure about the prices of their classicals but i KNOW they sound awesome
another high end brand is Taylor, very expensive but worth it if you got the money

if i were in your situation i'd look at Washburn, i have a friend with 2 washburn acoustics (not classical) and they sound great, and a high end Washburn classical is probably in your price range

Takimene (sp?) are also great guitars, so are Alvarez, and Gibson, Guild, and Fender

my advise to you is to play as many as possible until you find one you really love
theres a very cool music shop in Indy called Mars, im not sure if they are anywhere else, its a HUGE building and has all kinds of equipment and have great prices, i get chills everytime i go into their acoustic room, (about $50,000 worth of guitars), if you can find a Mars around you or something like it, go there asap, they incourage you to pick up the guitars and play, even provide pics and cords(for the electrics), really neat place
sorry i wrote so much, good luck with your hunt and let us know what you buy

------------------
88 Notch, B&M Ripper, 3.73's, Ported E7's, Explorer int. w/ ported lower, pulleys, 1.7RR's, BBK headers, off-road H-pipe, flowmasters, subframes, 65mm TB, March ram air ,MSD coil, U/L control arms, 155lph f/p, Crane Adj.FPR, Nitto drag radials, best 1/4--> 13.76@101.4 on a 2.17 60ft

fiveohpatrol · 09-12-2001, 01:56 PM

sorry, double post

[This message has been edited by fiveohpatrol (edited 09-12-2001).]

2FastLX · 09-12-2001, 02:35 PM

Oh yeah, Drew named a couple I was going to say something about but forgot. Takamini and Washburn are two fine acoustic guitar companies. Washburns have their own sound in my opinion and in the $700+ lines you will find very suitable offerings. I also have experience with some Takamini's which have all been very nice as well and you could easily find one of their guitars for the price range you are looking for that you would probably fall in love with.

I have a Fender Malibu ($395 new) which whenever people play it they comment on how good it sounds. I have picked up other Malibu guitars that I don't think sound as good as mine, but I use Martin #10 strings too which you won't normally find on a new Fender =)

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

Dark Knight · 09-12-2001, 02:40 PM

check out ovation too.. they have some nice stuff http://www.kamanmusic.com/ovation_20...s/ovation.html

------------------
84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer
3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties
stock cam, 1.7's
13.85@102.5
and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

09-13-2001, 05:51 AM

I've been playing for 9 yrs. I have an Ibanez rg550(electric - looking for a les paul) a Fender Acoustic(western) and a no name classical guitar that I bought at a Flea Market for $30. The one I bought at the Flea Market is one of the best Classical Guitars I've ever played. (I live in Germany - There's plenty of them around.)There is something much more important than price or brand -- how it feels and sounds to you. My advice is to take your time and look around - ask if you can play the ones that you think you'll like. Don't worry about brand names...and make sure you here at least hear the guitar before you buy it - and you can usually get a good idea of the quality just by taking a good look....Try your local pawn shops or flea market/yard sales...you never know

------------------
Speed makes the world a smaller place.

Fox Body · 09-13-2001, 08:10 PM

Thanks for the advice guys, I am totally inspired now. To tell the truth, I am a little more crazy about my guitar than I am about my car (can you believe that?!!), but I spend way more $$$ on my car. Now's time to splurge a little towards my guitar. I am very serious about getting a relatively high quality classical guitar and do not want to settle for less.

Reconsidering my plan of action, I'd much rather do it right the first time, so if it costs me $1000, okay, I'm willing to spend it. But $1500 WILL be the limit for guitar AND hard shell case.

Yes, it's ALL about sound and quality so I will plan this out and do it right.

Thanks for giving me something to go on by mentioning those brand names and all the other advice mentioned-- really appreciate your advice 'cause I'm serious about this.

-----------------------------------------
351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback
Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit
Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft
2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters
Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II
Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s
14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX begins!!!

"Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

fiveohpatrol · 09-13-2001, 11:28 PM

glad to hear that your inspired now
as for the hardshell case thing, most reputable shops will price the guitar with the case included, they know that no one should be transporting or storing a $1000+ guitar without a case, good luck

------------------
88 Notch, B&M Ripper, 3.73's, Ported E7's, Explorer int. w/ ported lower, pulleys, 1.7RR's, BBK headers, off-road H-pipe, flowmasters, subframes, 65mm TB, March ram air ,MSD coil, U/L control arms, 155lph f/p, Crane Adj.FPR, Nitto drag radials, best 1/4--> 13.76@101.4 on a 2.17 60ft

Fox Body · 09-14-2001, 11:26 AM

Yes you're right. It's the cheaper guitars that leave the option open for buying a case with it, but higher quality ones where a case is automatically included.

BTW, I gotta show you all my hand crafted steel stringed (my other baby).

...and my broke down electric (but hey it's good for serious thrashing

)

-----------------------------------------
351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback
Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit
Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft
2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters
Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II
Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s
14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX begins!!!

"Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

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09-10-2001, 09:04 PM	#1
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Need a classical guitar. Which one? Fellow stangers, the ones that play guitar, throw me some advise. I got a steel stringed and electric, I REALLY need a classical. So then, these are the criteria: 1) Out of sound quality from 1-10, I need 8. 2) Price $700 +/- $100 for guitar and hard (wood) case. 3) Good looking from 1-10, I need 6-7. 4) Playing/fingering ease/quality (I hate too much action and no buzzing-- other than one any simple intonation or truss rod adjustment won't fix) must be > 9. ---Don't need acoustic pickup, equalizer, cutaway, or anything like that on it. So what brand would you suggest? Brands to shy away from? I'm looking at Alvarez. Don't have to be brand new as long as in good shape. Let me know what you think and if a moderately high quality classical guitar + hard case can he had for the price listed above. Let's see if anyone has any idea what I'm talking about ----------------------------------------- 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s 14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX* begins!!!* "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

09-10-2001, 10:19 PM	#2
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	I have a friend who is REALLY into guitars, I'll ask him for you. I play a little. I've always like the vintage fender telacasters ------------------ THE SLO PONY 1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Mods: yanked air-intake silencer Future mods: V-8 or turbo 2.3 swap. If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

09-11-2001, 01:35 AM	#3
mustang marty gt Guest Posts: n/a	a good friend , of mine has , a 1958 feneder which he said i could have, when he's gone. i don't want it that bad! but one day it , will be mine ,i just hope not soon , at all it's they same style as the one on ted nugent's cat scratch fever ,album ,or oop' free for all album ., damm memory loss doh! it is a sweet piece of work but as i said before i am in no! hurry to get it, i don't know much about newer guitar's it's been a while but , good luck i'm no help i know. ------------------

09-11-2001, 08:09 AM	#4
matt cook Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 449	I have always had a thing for Yamaha Guitars - the quality from low $ to high $ is outstanding. I have a Yamaha classical that is at least 30 years old that is just awesome. They get my vote! ------------------ 1982 Mustang GT

09-12-2001, 03:12 AM	#5
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	My personal favorite is Martin guitars. They have a nice mellow tone and are easy to play. I had a yamaha middle of the line classical guitar and didn't like it much, it was kinda hard to play. I gave that away to my dad, and i used to play my (now ex) girlfriend's Martin guitar, and i was impressed. You should be able to go to a guitar/musical store and test out any of the guitars that you may want to buy. I hope you find what you're looking for,

09-12-2001, 04:28 AM	#6
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Yeah I went to test drive some classical guitars the other day (hey I was willing to spend over $200 for something other then my car!! amazed). One I really liked b/c it sounded WONDERFUL, but the visual quality of its woodwork was below my criteria (it looked cheaply done). The other guitar I considered that day looked good enough, but didn't sound as good as I would have felt satisfied to buy. I'll keep looking and keep what you guys said in my mind. Thanks for your input. ----------------------------------------- 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s 14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX* begins!!!* "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

09-12-2001, 12:25 PM	#7
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	I have to agree with 84LX89GT. Martin all the way. You won't find a nicer guitar for $4500. Oh wait, you said $700 They do some in the $1000 price range too I guess. If you can find a used Martin for the price (highly doubtful) by all means GET IT! I was at a small music shop and picked up a $700 "copy" of a Martin and when I played it I couldn't believe the sound compared to my Fender Acoustic. The room I was sampling this guitar in was full of Martins that said "DO NOT TOUCH!!!!!". So, when the store owner wasn't looking I swapped out the "copy" for the real thing and kept picking thinking he'd never notice. As soon as I hit the first string it was like a sound from the heavens surrounded me. UNBELIEVABLE! The store owner looked up and I was busted. But he never came to throw me out. I guess he likes finger style on a nice guitar as much as I do The hole point to this story is 1st of all, if you have never experienced a Martin guitar, DO IT! 2nd, go out and PLAY a guitar and choose one that sounds good to you. Don't buy it because of a name. Alvarez will be one of my choices, but it's up to you what sound you like best and how the guitar frets will be different for everyone as well. Play em all. If you find an old guitar that is in mint condition - beware. Find an old guitar that is all beat up and that's the one that will probably be the better choice. If it hasn't been played, it must not play well. Good luck. ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

09-12-2001, 01:48 PM	#8
fiveohpatrol I'd rather be basketweaving Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,551	i agree with 84Lx89GT and 2FastLX on the Martins because I happen to own one, as does my father, they are however expensive, but in music just like car parts you get what you pay for, mine is on the middle-lower end of their line its the DM acoustic, lists for $900, it sounds awesome, my fathers is a 150th anniverary D-28 which sounds like heaven, its freakin incredible, it lists new for $2500 i believe, his was appraised at $4000, im not sure about the prices of their classicals but i KNOW they sound awesome another high end brand is Taylor, very expensive but worth it if you got the money if i were in your situation i'd look at Washburn, i have a friend with 2 washburn acoustics (not classical) and they sound great, and a high end Washburn classical is probably in your price range Takimene (sp?) are also great guitars, so are Alvarez, and Gibson, Guild, and Fender my advise to you is to play as many as possible until you find one you really love theres a very cool music shop in Indy called Mars, im not sure if they are anywhere else, its a HUGE building and has all kinds of equipment and have great prices, i get chills everytime i go into their acoustic room, (about $50,000 worth of guitars), if you can find a Mars around you or something like it, go there asap, they incourage you to pick up the guitars and play, even provide pics and cords(for the electrics), really neat place sorry i wrote so much, good luck with your hunt and let us know what you buy ------------------ 88 Notch, B&M Ripper, 3.73's, Ported E7's, Explorer int. w/ ported lower, pulleys, 1.7RR's, BBK headers, off-road H-pipe, flowmasters, subframes, 65mm TB, March ram air ,MSD coil, U/L control arms, 155lph f/p, Crane Adj.FPR, Nitto drag radials, best 1/4--> 13.76@101.4 on a 2.17 60ft

09-12-2001, 01:56 PM	#9
fiveohpatrol I'd rather be basketweaving Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,551	sorry, double post [This message has been edited by fiveohpatrol (edited 09-12-2001).]

09-12-2001, 02:35 PM	#10
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	Oh yeah, Drew named a couple I was going to say something about but forgot. Takamini and Washburn are two fine acoustic guitar companies. Washburns have their own sound in my opinion and in the $700+ lines you will find very suitable offerings. I also have experience with some Takamini's which have all been very nice as well and you could easily find one of their guitars for the price range you are looking for that you would probably fall in love with. I have a Fender Malibu ($395 new) which whenever people play it they comment on how good it sounds. I have picked up other Malibu guitars that I don't think sound as good as mine, but I use Martin #10 strings too which you won't normally find on a new Fender =) ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

09-12-2001, 02:40 PM	#11
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	check out ovation too.. they have some nice stuff http://www.kamanmusic.com/ovation_20...s/ovation.html ------------------ 84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.85@102.5 and a '68 stang that WAS nasty ;-)

09-13-2001, 05:51 AM	#12
Mustank the Destroyer Guest Posts: n/a	I've been playing for 9 yrs. I have an Ibanez rg550(electric - looking for a les paul) a Fender Acoustic(western) and a no name classical guitar that I bought at a Flea Market for $30. The one I bought at the Flea Market is one of the best Classical Guitars I've ever played. (I live in Germany - There's plenty of them around.)There is something much more important than price or brand -- how it feels and sounds to you. My advice is to take your time and look around - ask if you can play the ones that you think you'll like. Don't worry about brand names...and make sure you here at least hear the guitar before you buy it - and you can usually get a good idea of the quality just by taking a good look....Try your local pawn shops or flea market/yard sales...you never know ------------------ Speed makes the world a smaller place.

09-13-2001, 08:10 PM	#13
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Thanks for the advice guys, I am totally inspired now. To tell the truth, I am a little more crazy about my guitar than I am about my car (can you believe that?!!), but I spend way more $$$ on my car. Now's time to splurge a little towards my guitar. I am very serious about getting a relatively high quality classical guitar and do not want to settle for less. Reconsidering my plan of action, I'd much rather do it right the first time, so if it costs me $1000, okay, I'm willing to spend it. But $1500 WILL be the limit for guitar AND hard shell case. Yes, it's ALL about sound and quality so I will plan this out and do it right. Thanks for giving me something to go on by mentioning those brand names and all the other advice mentioned-- really appreciate your advice 'cause I'm serious about this. ----------------------------------------- 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s 14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX* begins!!!* "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

09-13-2001, 11:28 PM	#14
fiveohpatrol I'd rather be basketweaving Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,551	glad to hear that your inspired now as for the hardshell case thing, most reputable shops will price the guitar with the case included, they know that no one should be transporting or storing a $1000+ guitar without a case, good luck ------------------ 88 Notch, B&M Ripper, 3.73's, Ported E7's, Explorer int. w/ ported lower, pulleys, 1.7RR's, BBK headers, off-road H-pipe, flowmasters, subframes, 65mm TB, March ram air ,MSD coil, U/L control arms, 155lph f/p, Crane Adj.FPR, Nitto drag radials, best 1/4--> 13.76@101.4 on a 2.17 60ft

09-14-2001, 11:26 AM	#15
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Yes you're right. It's the cheaper guitars that leave the option open for buying a case with it, but higher quality ones where a case is automatically included. BTW, I gotta show you all my hand crafted steel stringed (my other baby). ...and my broke down electric (but hey it's good for serious thrashing ) ----------------------------------------- 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang notchback Stock 5.8L under custom made 4" cowl, C4 w/ shift kit Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, Al driveshaft 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 255/60/15 Eagle GT II Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s 14 x 4” K&N air filter. Only a couple of weeks b4 Project FOX* begins!!!* "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body