OK, That's it... Soap box up (Poll: Muslims call U.S. 'ruthless, arrogant')

Hammer · 02-27-2002, 02:10 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gal...ims/index.html

I'm officially fed up with just about all of this crap....

Quote:

Residents of nine Muslim countries called the United States "ruthless and arrogant" in a new poll

Hammer of the United States called the majority of the population of those 9 muslim countries uneducated, brainwashed, and easily lead like sheep

Quote:

Most Muslims surveyed expressed the view that the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States were not justified morally, but larger majorities labeled U.S. military action in Afghanistan "morally unjustifiable."

Oh, so its worse to kill hundreds (mostly armed) in self-preservation than to kill thousands (civilians) for religous zealotry, political gains, or just plain perversed pleasure.

Quote:

Sixty-one percent said they did not believe Arab groups carried out the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Oh yea, the good ol' Jewish ruled new world order conspiracy theory.... You guys are doin' a little too much of Afghanistan's best cash crop. (opium)

Quote:

Most respondents said they thought the United States was aggressive and biased against Islamic values. Specifically, they cited a bias against Palestinians.

I say that most Islamic fundamentalists are power-crazed nut jobs who get off on destruction. Oh yea, Me and Bob up here in the states can't stand those crappy Palestinians... We put on our Klan robes at night and burn an effigy of Yasser Arafat just for kicks...

Quote:

They also view American values as deeply materialist and secular and American culture as a corrupting influence on their societies, the poll found.

Well, I deem Islamic fundamentalist values as archaic, unjust, and bloodthirsty. Oh, our culture corrupts... but our money, food, and humanitarian aid can be cleaned up just enough for them to deal with... can't get those corrupt American cooties you know....

Quote:

Twenty-eight percent of Kuwaitis... surveyed had a favorable view of the United States.

WHOA! Didn't we save these rich, selfish butt-heads from total annihilation and hell not too many years ago? I distinctly remember sitting in the middle of that crappy Red Sea for 8 months saving their sorry behinds. They should be the most pro-American country in that whole dust bowl they call the middle east. And WE'RE arrogant... please...

At this point, I say we stop buying their crappy oil and say hi to our new friends in Northern Russia, they've got LOTS of oil and REALLY like American dollar bills....

Crazy Horse GT · 02-27-2002, 02:29 AM

i back that azz hammer after sitting in the iraq dustbowl for 6 months, & now i got gulf war syn, kuwait should be kissing our a-s,oh im mad

302 LX Eric · 02-27-2002, 09:21 AM

I say we quit intervening over there...just let them all kill themselves in civil wars/boarder wars/ethnic wars and then we'll go in and setup a more modern type government system that promotes equality, justice and a better way of life.

These freaking people crack me up. Their religion /culture/beliefs have been around for THOUSANDS of years over there in the "Dust Bowl" and all they can come up with is what? Oil. That's it. You got a bunch of starving, improverished, part nomadic, harsh, and sometime downright barbaric lifestyle (except for the wealthy top 0.00001%). In India they still have a caste system (even though the government "claims" that it is illegal.) They still poop in outdoor stalls where a person from the lowest caste has to clean it up with a board! Gives new meaning to 'poop' on a shingle!

Now, America has been around for about 225 years or so, and what have we accomplished? ALOT! The quality of life here is great, the average age of death has increased every year since records have been maintained. Food is plentiful. We share the longest friendly boarder in the world (Canada). And you know, for all the bitching these people do, where else in the world can Muslims, Jews, Christians, Afro-Americans, Asian Americans, Native American's, etc. live as neighbors without killing each other?

What's even more hypocritical is how they curse us one day and idolize us the next. Or, complain about our great country and then compete for their lives to be accepted into American or European Universities. Complete crap.

I'm all for oil exploration in the great Northwest and Russia too. I cringe knowing how dependent we are on Saudi area oil.

God Bless America.

I'm out.
E

Coupe Devil · 02-27-2002, 09:33 AM

Solution to our Problems This would solve it all.

Brad

Mr 5 0 · 02-27-2002, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by 302 LX Eric

I say we quit intervening over there...just let them all kill themselves in civil wars/border wars/ethnic wars and then we'll go in and setup a more modern type government system that promotes equality, justice and a better way of life.

Sounds good - doesn't work.

They have been at war for thousands of years - it's a 'tribal' thing - but since the establishment of Israel (1948) that tiny country has been the main focus of aggression, although Iraq and Iran went at it for quite some time and other mid-east countries have fought, they ALL hate Israel and by linkage, the U.S.

Even if your scenario was possible (U.S. leaves the area, Arabs kill off the majority of each other - U.S. then returns and imposes democracy) you cannot impose democracy and a Western culture on Arabs...it wouldn't work for a moment.
You would have to defeat them totally (think Germany and Japan after WWII) and not only give them no choice, but change the entire Arab/Muslim culture as Islam is a stifling religion that has had a lot to do with holding back the Arab world. They are not going to abandon it - no more than the U.S. is going to abandon Christianity. Any attempt to 'impose' anything like democracy would come to no good end.

These freaking people crack me up. Their religion /culture/beliefs have been around for THOUSANDS of years over there in the "Dust Bowl" and all they can come up with is what? Oil. That's it.

'They' didn't even 'come up with it', American oil companies did back in the early part of the last century. We found the oil, drilled for it, pumped it out and transported it and we naturally paid the Arabs a fee, a big fee, for doing this on their land. Worked well for a long time.
Then, in the early seventies, they formed OPEC and basically 'nationalized' (i.e. took ownership of the oil fields). We needed the oil so we went along or it was a war with the entire Arab world, which we were not prepared to fight (and still aren't).
That's when the price of gas started going up. If American (and British) companies hadn't found and extracted the oil, the Arab world would be much like Africa today; hell on earth, mostly. Instead it's more like a mitigated hell. They have modern conveniences but not many really own anything and your chances of making a better life are slim to none if you remain in your home country, which is why many try so hard to immigrate to the Great Satan....America, an irony that you and many others catch clearly.

You got a bunch of starving, improverished, part nomadic, harsh, and sometime downright barbaric lifestyle (except for the wealthy top 0.00001%). In India they still have a caste system (even though the government "claims" that it is illegal.) They still poop in outdoor stalls where a person from the lowest caste has to clean it up with a board! Gives new meaning to 'poop' on a shingle!

Yes, the entire region is very impoverished and backward due to Islam and corrupt governments as well as a failure to move out of the 14th century. Pathetic.

Now, America has been around for about 225 years or so, and what have we accomplished? ALOT! The quality of life here is great, the average age of death has increased every year since records have been maintained. Food is plentiful. We share the longest friendly boarder in the world (Canada). And you know, for all the bitching these people do, where else in the world Muslims, Jews, Christians, Afro-Americans, Asian Americans, Native American's, etc. live as neighbors without killing each other?

Freedom is a wonderous thing and produces unbelievable results but those who despise freedom despise us because America's success just shows how corrupt and hopeless these dictatorships and the nasty, hatfeul tribal attitudes that keep people at war with each other forever pull down a people and quash hope.

What's even more hypocritical is how they curse us one day and idolize us the next. Or, complain about our great country and then compete for their lives to be accepted into American or European Universities. Complete crap.

You've noticed that too?

I'm all for oil exploration in the great Northwest and Russia too. I cringe knowing how dependent we are on Saudi area oil.

So do I. This is why we put up with them but as we work (and fight) to oust dictators from the mid-east and put the terrorists on the run, we're also aiming to make the region friendlier and to intimidate the little kings in places like Saudi and Jordan to play ball with us or find themselves deposed one fine day, king of nothing and 'in exile'.

The Saudi 'royal family' knows they are in power only because we allow them to be and they play ball with us or be gone. The Saudi's time is coming but American can't fight every Arab nation at once so we pick them off by importance and how much threat they are to us. The Saudi's pose little military threat but Iraq does, so Iraq is in the gunsights now. We'll deal with the Saudis and others in good time and the more dictators we topple, the easier the next dictator/king will be to either oust or have willingly be our sock puppet.

God Bless America.

Amen

Jeb_Bush_2000 · 02-27-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Oh yea, the good ol' Jewish ruled new world order conspiracy theory....

"Into the building, we fly a plane? Oi, such an idea!"

PKRWUD · 02-27-2002, 06:51 PM

Hammer for President 2004!

Got my vote.

Take care,
-Chris

Unit 5302 · 02-27-2002, 07:52 PM

I could say a lot on this topic, instead I'll say some.

We are arrogant. Ruthless, hardly. At least not enough for my taste. I think we should just eradicate the Taliban, not simply try them.

We are biased against their belief system. Why shouldn't we be? They are the ones justifying our eradication. I would say that's a pretty fricken good reason to be biased against them.

We are extremely materialistic. In many cases how you are judged in the society has to do with your material wealth. That's how a capitalist society works, and why it works I might add.

Russia doesn't want the US stepping in and setting up their oil fields and other aspects of their country. They are somewhat paranoid about outsiders. They are quite justified in that attribute if you look back into history and see how many times they've been invaded. They would much rather Japan help them out, but Japan has refused until Russia returns an island to Japan that is rightfully Russia's. The Japanese have to be about the dumbest people on Earth sometimes. Russia of course will not let the island go. They are a proud people, much like their American neighbors. Would we give up one of our states?

The primary religion in the United States has attempted to wipe the Earth of the "heathen" Muslims before, and is extremely corrupt and hypocritical. Christianity has been used to justify murdering people for millennia. Before we start comparing what they've accomplished in the last two hundred years vs what we have, you might want to consider our natural resources, and the fact we came here with technology from Europe.

It's true they'll never annihilate themselves. They breed like rabbits and treat women like baby production machines. A constantly regenerating population of ignorant young people, too young to gain the wisdom necessary to revolt, and the elders have lived such a hard life in most cases, justifying another war is probably pretty difficult. Of course, the extremely wealthy determine whether the poor live or die, and the rich like their society just fine.

Africa will not forever be doomed to 3rd world status in my opinion. The raw material necessary to produce today's computer chips is found there, along with diamonds, gold, and other natural resources. There will be somebody able to help that continent rise up to a higher level.

302 LX Eric · 02-27-2002, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Africa will not forever be doomed to 3rd world status in my opinion. The raw material necessary to produce today's computer chips is found there, along with diamonds, gold, and other natural resources. There will be somebody able to help that continent rise up to a higher level.

What do you think the DeBeers conglomerate has been doing over there for year and years? Helping the poor African folk? Please! They and other American and European companies have been mining diamonds, gold, copper, tin and just about everything else out of the place for ages. Has it helped the Africans? For the most part, absolutely not. If anything, it's kept most of the continent in 3rd world status and given rise to Western/European countries.

Quote:

Before we start comparing what they've accomplished in the last two hundred years vs what we have, you might want to consider our natural resources, and the fact we came here with technology from Europe.

I understand where you're coming from here, but I was referring more to the overall religous/cultural picture. Let me elaborate: Thousands of years ago the Fertile Cresent region was brimming with cultural prominence, popular religous views that worked, and scholars that contributed greatly to their society. As time progressed, their religous ways were not 'keeping up with the times' for lack of a better expression. To be blunt, they didn't adapt with the changing world. All religions went through (Crusades) and continue to go through changes and adaptations, however the Muslim faith appears to have been left behind in many respects. While many Muslims have progressed and adapted their religion to the 21st century, there is clear evidence that the majority of "Dust Bowl" countries have not.

Good discussion, Guys.
E

Unit 5302 · 02-27-2002, 10:44 PM

I don't know as it should be a religious view. There are Muslims here as well. It's more of a societal problem. They are using a warped version of a religion to justify their society, though. Religion is probably the single most powerful weapon to persecute another people. I just think its hypocritical, especially of Christian's to talk about a different religion being bad. Of course, some of us like myself may not be religiously affiliated.

You don't have to go to far back to see the idea Christianity being used to justify killing witches, keeping the poor uneducated, hoarding wealth and power, directly controlling society (very much like the Middle East today), annihilating the Aztec, Native American's, and everybody else that stood in the way of hoarding wealth in the "New World."

My sister is studying at Discipleship Training School right now. Soon she will be departing for Brazil to help the people there. In my opinion, there is no amount of help the Christian's can provide to make up for annihilating and enslaving them. I just hope this isn't another crusade to save the poor heathens from death by manipulating them into following a new faith.

The US has been attempting such acts in the Middle East for a long time. Why do you think they're so pissed?

PKRWUD · 02-27-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unit 5302
I just think its hypocritical, especially of Christian's to talk about a different religion being bad. Of course, some of us like myself may not be religiously affiliated.

This is one time when Kell and are in complete agreement. My parents are both ordained ministers, and I do believe that organized religion has some merits, but for one to proclaim it's views are right, while all others are wrong, is just short of criminal. I have a very strong dislike for Catholocism, and the way it has used fear and ignorance to build it's following through the years. I am a spiritual person, and I have my own beliefs, but they are mine, and I usually try to keep it that way. Religion can be a very touchy subject, which is why I usually try to avoid the subject, but after reading what Kell wrote, I felt the need to add that I agree with him. This time.

Take care,
-Chris

302 LX Eric · 02-28-2002, 03:04 PM

Chris and Kelley:

Based on your latest responses, I think I need to clarify some things. Primarily, that I do not view the Muslim religion as bad or wrong. Likewise, I don't think that about any popular religions (the Jewish religion, the Christian & Catholic faiths, the Budist (sp?). etc, etc.)

I was merely trying to shed light on just one view of this very big issue. Again, in general, many Muslim countries in the "Dust Bowl" have been left behind. Period. Not because their religion/cultural views are wrong - but because they haven't adapted to the modern world , whatever that may be.

E

Mr 5 0 · 02-28-2002, 06:11 PM

Chris/Kell:

Originally posted by PKRWUD

I do believe that organized religion has some merits, but for one to proclaim it's views are right, while all others are wrong, is just short of criminal.

Whoa! Let's back this train up a bit, shall we?

This is America, not Iran. We're fortunate enough to live in a country that allows each religious community the constitutional right to proclaim it's view is the 'only' correct one, but unlike Muslim countries, we do not have the right to jail, torture or kill those who don't agree with our individual religious view.

America is not a theocracy and never will be - too many competing religions and a sizable atheist/agnostic contingent so I find nothing 'criminal' about believing in one religion as the 'only' one and as for calling other religions 'bad'. That's natural if you truly believe that your religion is the only way to God, heaven and a full life. Most religious people of any particular faith see other religions as corrupt and leading to hell or something like it. They see this as sad and wrong but again; unlike the mid-east, we don't kill each other over it and many, many religions prosper here in America.

Christians (of which I'm one - full disclosure here) has benefitted the world in many ways and continues to do so today. It isn't Christians who behead reporters in Pakistan or drive planes into the Pentagon or the World Trade Center, killing thousands for 'Allah' (the Moon God).

The entire mid-east is controlled by Muslim leaders; some devout, some 'Muslims' in name only (like many Christians) and look at the poverty and strife there. Yes, I object to Islam on 'religious' grounds (another discussion) and the fact that it's oppressive and automatically cuts out half the population (female) from having a full life and contributing to society. Islam has also proven to be quite harsh to non-believers. So, yes, I object to it, the same as I find liberal Democrats objectionable but would never do more that talk or write about my objections to either one. I have no need to harm a Muslim to validate my religious belief. Most Christians feel the same way. We find Islam harmful and wrong, even..gasp...'bad' but we don't want to murder or jail peaceful Muslims in America. Democrats are tempting but no, I don't want to jail them or kill them, just defeat them politically.
Isn't democracy grand?

Please don't give me 'The Crusades' in an attempt to make a moral equivalence between the Islam of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (and the rest of the middle east) and Christianity. It doesn't play.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has a somewhat sordid pre-Reformation history and Christianity has it historical flaws but this is America in 2002, not the Dark Ages or some other bleak historical period and we don't behead people or torture and kill you - or others - because you're a non-believer, nor does any Christian or other religion wish to have that power.

That's the beauty of America. You can be as 'religious' as you please - even a Muslim - and - for the most part - no one will bother you. You can also be an atheist and find all religion boring, or hypocritical or just unacceptable to you and that's fine, too.

No one asks what religion you are before you can rent an apartment, get a job, get a loan, etc. That's true religious freedom, instituted and upheld for 225 years in a 'Christian' country.

Kell seems to find Christianity responsible for most of world's problems and that's simply absurd, in my opinion.

Sounds like a common justification for the atheist posture to me but it's way off. The examples of killing and destruction Kell lists, while mostly true, had little to do with religion and a lot to do with greed and power, such as the slaughter of the American 'Indian' and the Aztecs. About 35 women in early New England were accused of being witches and executed. Hundreds were exonerated after being accused. Of course, none should have been executed but the claims of a bloodthirsty Christian community in early Massachusetts is way overblown by those not cognizant of the facts and wishing to attack Christianity and draw moral equivalences that simply do not exist, especially in the 21st century.

My point is that in America in 2002, we are constitutionally free to worship as we please or not worship at all. We are not a theocracy and the fact that you may not like a certain religion gives you no rights to do anything other than pray for the other person or talk to him/her IF they allow you to. No more.

To atheists, all religion is a threat and they always drag out some Medieval horror done under the 'name' of a religion or try to equate Islam's extremes with Christianity, which is absurd.

Religion has easily done as much good as it's done harm and we're all quite free to reject it but let's not allow our preconceived notions about religion, especially Christianity, keep us from viewing religion as a whole on a rational basis and not attempt to make it something it isn't and hasn't been for a long time.

I find atheism an empty and sad way to live but I don't attempt to 'convert' atheists or label them as evil. The atheist non-belief is no threat to me or my faith. They think Christianity is foolish and I find their denial of a creator to be foolish. So what?
It's amazing how a calm and respectful view of the other guy's belief or non-belief can keep things cordial. Same with Islam. I find it bad for the participants on pure religious grounds but again, so what? I don't tolerate abuse of peaceful American Muslims and I don't wish to harm any.

The whole 'problem' of religious intolerance in America is way overblown in my opinion.

Unit 5302 · 02-28-2002, 08:31 PM

Well, #1 my name is NOT Kelley. It's Kell (Kale).

Mr 5.0, I'm not an atheist, thanks. I'm agnostic. I'm not blaming all the worlds problems on Christianity. I'm blaming a lot of them on religion in general, just making sure the high and mighty Christian following doesn't get a big head. Not even religion, but the manipulation of a religion to suit greed. The only place in the cherished book of the Christian (bible) that says to go out and kill people that I know of is when god commands the Israelites to go and annihilate their enemies. Kill everything and everyone. But the Israelites didn't follow the command, instead they pillaged. You'll have to forgive me if I'm somewhat inaccurate. I've never bothered to read the old, corrupted, paperweight.

If you want to argue that Christianity wasn't used as justification to slaughter the people in the America's, the Middle East, at home and abroad, rape and pillage, oppress, hoard wealth, and to control people, be my guest. History pretty much speaks for itself on the subject.

I'm not going to argue that the Muslim belief is being manipulated to crash airliners into buildings, or kill reporters, or plot terrorist attacks.

I'm not going to argue that the very people the Conquistadors annihilated in the name of "god" didn't wage war and sacrifice based on their religion.

Like I stated above, tt's not generally the religion, it's the manipulation of it that is criminal. Alas, most religious people are nothing more than blind followers of their faith. A lack of personal knowledge and understanding of their chosen faith allows easy manipulation, and the corruption of the faith itself. People would rather be told what to believe than figure out what they are supposed to believe on their own. Giving people the idea that they are right by divine will is a powerful tool. They should follow their faith above all else. This world is not important compared to the afterlife. It all adds up to probably the oldest form of brainwashing known to man.

Quite frankly, I find it very translucent. The nastiest people I have ever known have been devout Christians. All people were of a lesser plane than themselves. Non believers were heathens practically unworthy to converse with. The hypocrisy of their attitude versus the book they so adamantly followed was sickening.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr 5.0:This is America, not Iran. We're fortunate enough to live in a country that allows each religious community the constitutional right to proclaim it's view is the 'only' correct one, but unlike Muslim countries, we do not have the right to jail, torture or kill those who don't agree with our individual religious view.

We have the right to do whatever the hell the loudest voice wants, and that concept is used everyday at the capital.

Mr 5 0 · 02-28-2002, 09:23 PM

Kell

I find your views on religion to be inaccurate, arrogant and sophomoric, at best.

Apparently you have little conception as to how to have a civil discussion with those who don't agree with you. You should learn.

Some day you may be able to admit that you could actually be wrong about religion or some aspect of it without exploding into vilification of the bible, Christianity and those who practice it.
I hope so.

For now, I'll simply let your skewed and offensive comments on Christianity stand alone to speak for you as they do, better than you realize.

I'll leave off the discussion at this point as it can go nowhere but down from here and that would be of no benefit to anyone.

fixer · 02-28-2002, 10:29 PM

Story off the AP:

57 Hindu Indians died in a fire set by Muslim Nationalists. The fire was on a train and was set by Muslims that were upset that the Hinus were chanting.

Unit 5302 · 02-28-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr 5 0
Kell

I find your views on religion to be inaccurate, arrogant and sophomoric, at best.

Apparently you have little conception as to how to have a civil discussion with those who don't agree with you. You should learn.

Some day you may be able to admit that you could actually be wrong about religion or some aspect of it without exploding into vilification of the bible, Christianity and those who practice it.
I hope so.

For now, I'll simply let your skewed and offensive comments on Christianity stand alone to speak for you as they do, better than you realize.

I'll leave off the discussion at this point as it can go nowhere but down from here and that would be of no benefit to anyone.

I find this to be the typical religious followers response when the most stable thing in their life is challenged. Their whole world and everything they know or think to be true is under fire. No logical arguments come back out of the response, because there is no logic to support their stand, or they are so enraged they can't think of any. They merely sit back and throw stones. I'm not the one directly insulting people here.

There is not one single thing that I have posted about the history of Christianity that can be argued false. That's the most brutal part isn't it?

You and many others may be a "good" Christian just trying to do the best they can to get through this world and pass through to the promised paradise by proving themselves worthy in God's righteous eyes. Following the written word of God, spelling out the path of what is good and beneficial to you is more difficult for some.

There are just as many who claim to be good Christians, and may infact attempt to be good, but are misled by false prophets and poor interpretations of a text translated time and time again.

I find a good many rules stated in the book are simply what I consider the makings of good moral charachter. What goes around most certainly does come around, and walking through life by following a good set of morals will certainly pay dividends along the way.

For those that just blindly follow what their preacher or church tells them, get a clue and learn about your religion from it's source. The book or script that is starts from. Make your own interpretations of it. Decide what is right and wrong based on those interpretations. If you seek guidence, talk to an expert, or two experts. If you feel the need to practice your faith in a church to be with people you feel of equal moral charachter, so be it. Just make sure you're not blindly following whatever you are told.

I don't think I've said anywhere in here that faith is to blame for the problems in this world. If you can't seperate faith from religion, maybe you're not as smart as I thought you were.

Crazy Horse GT · 02-28-2002, 10:34 PM

i wont get into the religion part but i almost lost it unit ,when you were called kelley ,haha ,not funny ,i know but it freaked me out. oh well gotta go my daughter is calling on the phone.

Unit 5302 · 02-28-2002, 10:57 PM

You could always try to argue the merits of religion.

Like the fact it's been an integral part of tying people together. It has allowed teamwork and acceptance of colleagues with the same views as another person. Throughout history religion has had a hand in making some of the greatest man made objects on this planet stand for ages.

The pyramids of Egypt wouldn't exist today if not for religion. Indeed much technology and knowledge has come from religious worship. Was there any reason to build temples or churches to worship gods? How about Rome? Would it have existed without gods? Cities dedicated to the support of temples and people expanding society through their dedication to their gods? One could argue that without religion we might still be hunter/gatherers. After all, there was no logical reason to do many of the things we did. We certainly could not have known the outcome of our actions 5000 or more years ago on today's world.

How about morals? Things I consider to be basic good moral character is founded in the Bible. If the Bible said that everybody should "be an *** to thy neighbor," what I consider good moral character may be an altogether different set of ideas. Now that is technically faith, and not religion, but religious followers over the last couple thousand years have dedicated themselves to preserving the text as accurately as possible. Without that religious group's effort, the Bible may very well read "Beat the crap out of thy neighbor at your earliest convenience."

There is always another side, another view, and a basis to support that view. In a topic as touchy as this I would have rather seen it instead of being called names.

It's just quite depressing when somebody of your caliber sinks to just rattling off insults, Jim

PKRWUD · 03-01-2002, 01:05 AM

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I believe Muslums have a better grip on thing than Christians. I think, in the simplest terms, that religion has always been a crutch of sorts for people to lean on when they feel lost. Virtually all religions were formed by the elders of that society as a way to instill morals and beliefs that apply to that culture to those that make up said culture, and as a way to explain the unexplainable. Offering this to those that seek it is admirable. Hunting down those that have other beliefs, and convincing them they are wrong, and that all the good they believed they were doing is worthless, is not admirable. It's despicable. The Catholic Church has made that their primary function for centuries. Go seek those that have not found our way, and convince them they are sinners if they don't change their ways. This didn't just apply to evildoers, who raped and pillaged villages. This applied to indian cultures around the world. Cultures that had thrived successfully in many cases longer than Catholocism. That's what bugs me the most. That, and the fact that it still happens, everyday, in every country in the world. Missionaries who will seek out cultures that are at their weakest, due to drought, floods, or starvation, and offer them assistance only if they give up the beliefs their ancestors nurtured for centuries, and accept those of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was directly responsible for delaying the spread of the printing press in the middle ages for the sole reason of keeping the Bible from the people. The way it was written prior to the King James version was full of love, and hope, and faith, and they feared people would start their own churches and communities without the rule of the Catholic Church to control them. They were right. Churches were formed, and communities developed with more liberal Christian views. The Catholic Church responded with with a Bible that instilled fear into it's followers. I don't know about you guys, but my God is about love and forgiveness, not fear. I was never taught to fear being "struck down" for doing something "wrong". I guess that's what I really meant when I said it was just short of criminal to proclaim absolute right and wrong when it comes to faith. Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. It's not being deceived into believing everything you ever knew was wrong, and your only chance at salvation is to follow someone else.

Take care,
-Chris

02-27-2002, 02:29 AM	#2
Crazy Horse GT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sale Creek, TN. C. S. A. Posts: 4,652	i back that azz hammer after sitting in the iraq dustbowl for 6 months, & now i got gulf war syn, kuwait should be kissing our a-s,oh im mad __________________ 95 gt vert, lot's of stuff, it aint slow. 04 sonic blue v - six my beater 89 rs camaro iroc turbo hood, other stuff, my wifes ride 84 lx stang cammed up 289 hi po, etc 65 falcon, maybe by the year 2020. black 00gt, gone but never forgotten. R H C- member # 1 o.b.c. da prez- member # 1 if your under 40 dont ask. goodbye for now odie,r.i.p. 11-27-03

02-27-2002, 09:21 AM	#3
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	I say we quit intervening over there...just let them all kill themselves in civil wars/boarder wars/ethnic wars and then we'll go in and setup a more modern type government system that promotes equality, justice and a better way of life. These freaking people crack me up. Their religion /culture/beliefs have been around for THOUSANDS of years over there in the "Dust Bowl" and all they can come up with is what? Oil. That's it. You got a bunch of starving, improverished, part nomadic, harsh, and sometime downright barbaric lifestyle (except for the wealthy top 0.00001%). In India they still have a caste system (even though the government "claims" that it is illegal.) They still poop in outdoor stalls where a person from the lowest caste has to clean it up with a board! Gives new meaning to 'poop' on a shingle! Now, America has been around for about 225 years or so, and what have we accomplished? ALOT! The quality of life here is great, the average age of death has increased every year since records have been maintained. Food is plentiful. We share the longest friendly boarder in the world (Canada). And you know, for all the bitching these people do, where else in the world can Muslims, Jews, Christians, Afro-Americans, Asian Americans, Native American's, etc. live as neighbors without killing each other? What's even more hypocritical is how they curse us one day and idolize us the next. Or, complain about our great country and then compete for their lives to be accepted into American or European Universities. Complete crap. I'm all for oil exploration in the great Northwest and Russia too. I cringe knowing how dependent we are on Saudi area oil. God Bless America. I'm out. E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

02-27-2002, 09:33 AM	#4
Coupe Devil Moderator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Myrtle Beach SC Posts: 1,643	Solution to our Problems This would solve it all. Brad __________________ 1990 GT, 347, TFS TW Heads, TFS Cam, TFS Track heat, Twin turbos, FMIC, T5. Built Ford Tough Moderator

02-27-2002, 10:20 AM	#5
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Musings on the mid-east Originally posted by 302 LX Eric I say we quit intervening over there...just let them all kill themselves in civil wars/border wars/ethnic wars and then we'll go in and setup a more modern type government system that promotes equality, justice and a better way of life. Sounds good - doesn't work. They have been at war for thousands of years - it's a 'tribal' thing - but since the establishment of Israel (1948) that tiny country has been the main focus of aggression, although Iraq and Iran went at it for quite some time and other mid-east countries have fought, they ALL hate Israel and by linkage, the U.S. Even if your scenario was possible (U.S. leaves the area, Arabs kill off the majority of each other - U.S. then returns and imposes democracy) you cannot impose democracy and a Western culture on Arabs...it wouldn't work for a moment. You would have to defeat them totally (think Germany and Japan after WWII) and not only give them no choice, but change the entire Arab/Muslim culture as Islam is a stifling religion that has had a lot to do with holding back the Arab world. They are not going to abandon it - no more than the U.S. is going to abandon Christianity. Any attempt to 'impose' anything like democracy would come to no good end. These freaking people crack me up. Their religion /culture/beliefs have been around for THOUSANDS of years over there in the "Dust Bowl" and all they can come up with is what? Oil. That's it. 'They' didn't even 'come up with it', American oil companies did back in the early part of the last century. We found the oil, drilled for it, pumped it out and transported it and we naturally paid the Arabs a fee, a big fee, for doing this on their land. Worked well for a long time. Then, in the early seventies, they formed OPEC and basically 'nationalized' (i.e. took ownership of the oil fields). We needed the oil so we went along or it was a war with the entire Arab world, which we were not prepared to fight (and still aren't). That's when the price of gas started going up. If American (and British) companies hadn't found and extracted the oil, the Arab world would be much like Africa today; hell on earth, mostly. Instead it's more like a mitigated hell. They have modern conveniences but not many really own anything and your chances of making a better life are slim to none if you remain in your home country, which is why many try so hard to immigrate to the Great Satan....America, an irony that you and many others catch clearly. You got a bunch of starving, improverished, part nomadic, harsh, and sometime downright barbaric lifestyle (except for the wealthy top 0.00001%). In India they still have a caste system (even though the government "claims" that it is illegal.) They still poop in outdoor stalls where a person from the lowest caste has to clean it up with a board! Gives new meaning to 'poop' on a shingle! Yes, the entire region is very impoverished and backward due to Islam and corrupt governments as well as a failure to move out of the 14th century. Pathetic. Now, America has been around for about 225 years or so, and what have we accomplished? ALOT! The quality of life here is great, the average age of death has increased every year since records have been maintained. Food is plentiful. We share the longest friendly boarder in the world (Canada). And you know, for all the bitching these people do, where else in the world Muslims, Jews, Christians, Afro-Americans, Asian Americans, Native American's, etc. live as neighbors without killing each other? Freedom is a wonderous thing and produces unbelievable results but those who despise freedom despise us because America's success just shows how corrupt and hopeless these dictatorships and the nasty, hatfeul tribal attitudes that keep people at war with each other forever pull down a people and quash hope. What's even more hypocritical is how they curse us one day and idolize us the next. Or, complain about our great country and then compete for their lives to be accepted into American or European Universities. Complete crap. You've noticed that too? I'm all for oil exploration in the great Northwest and Russia too. I cringe knowing how dependent we are on Saudi area oil. So do I. This is why we put up with them but as we work (and fight) to oust dictators from the mid-east and put the terrorists on the run, we're also aiming to make the region friendlier and to intimidate the little kings in places like Saudi and Jordan to play ball with us or find themselves deposed one fine day, king of nothing and 'in exile'. The Saudi 'royal family' knows they are in power only because we allow them to be and they play ball with us or be gone. The Saudi's time is coming but American can't fight every Arab nation at once so we pick them off by importance and how much threat they are to us. The Saudi's pose little military threat but Iraq does, so Iraq is in the gunsights now. We'll deal with the Saudis and others in good time and the more dictators we topple, the easier the next dictator/king will be to either oust or have willingly be our sock puppet. God Bless America. Amen

02-27-2002, 06:51 PM	#7
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Hammer for President 2004! Got my vote. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

02-27-2002, 07:52 PM	#8
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I could say a lot on this topic, instead I'll say some. We are arrogant. Ruthless, hardly. At least not enough for my taste. I think we should just eradicate the Taliban, not simply try them. We are biased against their belief system. Why shouldn't we be? They are the ones justifying our eradication. I would say that's a pretty fricken good reason to be biased against them. We are extremely materialistic. In many cases how you are judged in the society has to do with your material wealth. That's how a capitalist society works, and why it works I might add. Russia doesn't want the US stepping in and setting up their oil fields and other aspects of their country. They are somewhat paranoid about outsiders. They are quite justified in that attribute if you look back into history and see how many times they've been invaded. They would much rather Japan help them out, but Japan has refused until Russia returns an island to Japan that is rightfully Russia's. The Japanese have to be about the dumbest people on Earth sometimes. Russia of course will not let the island go. They are a proud people, much like their American neighbors. Would we give up one of our states? The primary religion in the United States has attempted to wipe the Earth of the "heathen" Muslims before, and is extremely corrupt and hypocritical. Christianity has been used to justify murdering people for millennia. Before we start comparing what they've accomplished in the last two hundred years vs what we have, you might want to consider our natural resources, and the fact we came here with technology from Europe. It's true they'll never annihilate themselves. They breed like rabbits and treat women like baby production machines. A constantly regenerating population of ignorant young people, too young to gain the wisdom necessary to revolt, and the elders have lived such a hard life in most cases, justifying another war is probably pretty difficult. Of course, the extremely wealthy determine whether the poor live or die, and the rich like their society just fine. Africa will not forever be doomed to 3rd world status in my opinion. The raw material necessary to produce today's computer chips is found there, along with diamonds, gold, and other natural resources. There will be somebody able to help that continent rise up to a higher level.

02-27-2002, 10:44 PM	#10
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I don't know as it should be a religious view. There are Muslims here as well. It's more of a societal problem. They are using a warped version of a religion to justify their society, though. Religion is probably the single most powerful weapon to persecute another people. I just think its hypocritical, especially of Christian's to talk about a different religion being bad. Of course, some of us like myself may not be religiously affiliated. You don't have to go to far back to see the idea Christianity being used to justify killing witches, keeping the poor uneducated, hoarding wealth and power, directly controlling society (very much like the Middle East today), annihilating the Aztec, Native American's, and everybody else that stood in the way of hoarding wealth in the "New World." My sister is studying at Discipleship Training School right now. Soon she will be departing for Brazil to help the people there. In my opinion, there is no amount of help the Christian's can provide to make up for annihilating and enslaving them. I just hope this isn't another crusade to save the poor heathens from death by manipulating them into following a new faith. The US has been attempting such acts in the Middle East for a long time. Why do you think they're so pissed?

02-28-2002, 03:04 PM	#12
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	Chris and Kelley: Based on your latest responses, I think I need to clarify some things. Primarily, that I do not view the Muslim religion as bad or wrong. Likewise, I don't think that about any popular religions (the Jewish religion, the Christian & Catholic faiths, the Budist (sp?). etc, etc.) I was merely trying to shed light on just one view of this very big issue. Again, in general, many Muslim countries in the "Dust Bowl" have been left behind. Period. Not because their religion/cultural views are wrong - but because they haven't adapted to the modern world , whatever that may be. E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

02-28-2002, 06:11 PM	#13
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Losing your religion Chris/Kell: Originally posted by PKRWUD I do believe that organized religion has some merits, but for one to proclaim it's views are right, while all others are wrong, is just short of criminal. Whoa! Let's back this train up a bit, shall we? This is America, not Iran. We're fortunate enough to live in a country that allows each religious community the constitutional right to proclaim it's view is the 'only' correct one, but unlike Muslim countries, we do not have the right to jail, torture or kill those who don't agree with our individual religious view. America is not a theocracy and never will be - too many competing religions and a sizable atheist/agnostic contingent so I find nothing 'criminal' about believing in one religion as the 'only' one and as for calling other religions 'bad'. That's natural if you truly believe that your religion is the only way to God, heaven and a full life. Most religious people of any particular faith see other religions as corrupt and leading to hell or something like it. They see this as sad and wrong but again; unlike the mid-east, we don't kill each other over it and many, many religions prosper here in America. Christians (of which I'm one - full disclosure here) has benefitted the world in many ways and continues to do so today. It isn't Christians who behead reporters in Pakistan or drive planes into the Pentagon or the World Trade Center, killing thousands for 'Allah' (the Moon God). The entire mid-east is controlled by Muslim leaders; some devout, some 'Muslims' in name only (like many Christians) and look at the poverty and strife there. Yes, I object to Islam on 'religious' grounds (another discussion) and the fact that it's oppressive and automatically cuts out half the population (female) from having a full life and contributing to society. Islam has also proven to be quite harsh to non-believers. So, yes, I object to it, the same as I find liberal Democrats objectionable but would never do more that talk or write about my objections to either one. I have no need to harm a Muslim to validate my religious belief. Most Christians feel the same way. We find Islam harmful and wrong, even..gasp...'bad' but we don't want to murder or jail peaceful Muslims in America. Democrats are tempting but no, I don't want to jail them or kill them, just defeat them politically. Isn't democracy grand? Please don't give me 'The Crusades' in an attempt to make a moral equivalence between the Islam of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (and the rest of the middle east) and Christianity. It doesn't play. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has a somewhat sordid pre-Reformation history and Christianity has it historical flaws but this is America in 2002, not the Dark Ages or some other bleak historical period and we don't behead people or torture and kill you - or others - because you're a non-believer, nor does any Christian or other religion wish to have that power. That's the beauty of America. You can be as 'religious' as you please - even a Muslim - and - for the most part - no one will bother you. You can also be an atheist and find all religion boring, or hypocritical or just unacceptable to you and that's fine, too. No one asks what religion you are before you can rent an apartment, get a job, get a loan, etc. That's true religious freedom, instituted and upheld for 225 years in a 'Christian' country. Kell seems to find Christianity responsible for most of world's problems and that's simply absurd, in my opinion. Sounds like a common justification for the atheist posture to me but it's way off. The examples of killing and destruction Kell lists, while mostly true, had little to do with religion and a lot to do with greed and power, such as the slaughter of the American 'Indian' and the Aztecs. About 35 women in early New England were accused of being witches and executed. Hundreds were exonerated after being accused. Of course, none should have been executed but the claims of a bloodthirsty Christian community in early Massachusetts is way overblown by those not cognizant of the facts and wishing to attack Christianity and draw moral equivalences that simply do not exist, especially in the 21st century. My point is that in America in 2002, we are constitutionally free to worship as we please or not worship at all. We are not a theocracy and the fact that you may not like a certain religion gives you no rights to do anything other than pray for the other person or talk to him/her IF they allow you to. No more. To atheists, all religion is a threat and they always drag out some Medieval horror done under the 'name' of a religion or try to equate Islam's extremes with Christianity, which is absurd. Religion has easily done as much good as it's done harm and we're all quite free to reject it but let's not allow our preconceived notions about religion, especially Christianity, keep us from viewing religion as a whole on a rational basis and not attempt to make it something it isn't and hasn't been for a long time. I find atheism an empty and sad way to live but I don't attempt to 'convert' atheists or label them as evil. The atheist non-belief is no threat to me or my faith. They think Christianity is foolish and I find their denial of a creator to be foolish. So what? It's amazing how a calm and respectful view of the other guy's belief or non-belief can keep things cordial. Same with Islam. I find it bad for the participants on pure religious grounds but again, so what? I don't tolerate abuse of peaceful American Muslims and I don't wish to harm any. The whole 'problem' of religious intolerance in America is way overblown in my opinion.

02-28-2002, 09:23 PM	#15
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Making friends wherever he goes Kell I find your views on religion to be inaccurate, arrogant and sophomoric, at best. Apparently you have little conception as to how to have a civil discussion with those who don't agree with you. You should learn. Some day you may be able to admit that you could actually be wrong about religion or some aspect of it without exploding into vilification of the bible, Christianity and those who practice it. I hope so. For now, I'll simply let your skewed and offensive comments on Christianity stand alone to speak for you as they do, better than you realize. I'll leave off the discussion at this point as it can go nowhere but down from here and that would be of no benefit to anyone.

02-28-2002, 10:29 PM	#16
fixer Registered Member Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: mesa,az,usa Posts: 457	Story off the AP: 57 Hindu Indians died in a fire set by Muslim Nationalists. The fire was on a train and was set by Muslims that were upset that the Hinus were chanting.

02-28-2002, 10:34 PM	#18
Crazy Horse GT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sale Creek, TN. C. S. A. Posts: 4,652	i wont get into the religion part but i almost lost it unit ,when you were called kelley ,haha ,not funny ,i know but it freaked me out. oh well gotta go my daughter is calling on the phone. __________________ 95 gt vert, lot's of stuff, it aint slow. 04 sonic blue v - six my beater 89 rs camaro iroc turbo hood, other stuff, my wifes ride 84 lx stang cammed up 289 hi po, etc 65 falcon, maybe by the year 2020. black 00gt, gone but never forgotten. R H C- member # 1 o.b.c. da prez- member # 1 if your under 40 dont ask. goodbye for now odie,r.i.p. 11-27-03

02-28-2002, 10:57 PM	#19
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Instead of insuling and storming off You could always try to argue the merits of religion. Like the fact it's been an integral part of tying people together. It has allowed teamwork and acceptance of colleagues with the same views as another person. Throughout history religion has had a hand in making some of the greatest man made objects on this planet stand for ages. The pyramids of Egypt wouldn't exist today if not for religion. Indeed much technology and knowledge has come from religious worship. Was there any reason to build temples or churches to worship gods? How about Rome? Would it have existed without gods? Cities dedicated to the support of temples and people expanding society through their dedication to their gods? One could argue that without religion we might still be hunter/gatherers. After all, there was no logical reason to do many of the things we did. We certainly could not have known the outcome of our actions 5000 or more years ago on today's world. How about morals? Things I consider to be basic good moral character is founded in the Bible. If the Bible said that everybody should "be an * to thy neighbor," what I consider good moral character may be an altogether different set of ideas. Now that is technically faith, and not religion, but religious followers over the last couple thousand years have dedicated themselves to preserving the text as accurately as possible. Without that religious group's effort, the Bible may very well read "Beat the crap out of thy neighbor at your earliest convenience." There is always another side, another view, and a basis to support that view. In a topic as touchy as this I would have rather seen it instead of being called names. It's just quite depressing when somebody of your caliber sinks to just rattling off insults, Jim**

03-01-2002, 01:05 AM	#20
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I believe Muslums have a better grip on thing than Christians. I think, in the simplest terms, that religion has always been a crutch of sorts for people to lean on when they feel lost. Virtually all religions were formed by the elders of that society as a way to instill morals and beliefs that apply to that culture to those that make up said culture, and as a way to explain the unexplainable. Offering this to those that seek it is admirable. Hunting down those that have other beliefs, and convincing them they are wrong, and that all the good they believed they were doing is worthless, is not admirable. It's despicable. The Catholic Church has made that their primary function for centuries. Go seek those that have not found our way, and convince them they are sinners if they don't change their ways. This didn't just apply to evildoers, who raped and pillaged villages. This applied to indian cultures around the world. Cultures that had thrived successfully in many cases longer than Catholocism. That's what bugs me the most. That, and the fact that it still happens, everyday, in every country in the world. Missionaries who will seek out cultures that are at their weakest, due to drought, floods, or starvation, and offer them assistance only if they give up the beliefs their ancestors nurtured for centuries, and accept those of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was directly responsible for delaying the spread of the printing press in the middle ages for the sole reason of keeping the Bible from the people. The way it was written prior to the King James version was full of love, and hope, and faith, and they feared people would start their own churches and communities without the rule of the Catholic Church to control them. They were right. Churches were formed, and communities developed with more liberal Christian views. The Catholic Church responded with with a Bible that instilled fear into it's followers. I don't know about you guys, but my God is about love and forgiveness, not fear. I was never taught to fear being "struck down" for doing something "wrong". I guess that's what I really meant when I said it was just short of criminal to proclaim absolute right and wrong when it comes to faith. Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. It's not being deceived into believing everything you ever knew was wrong, and your only chance at salvation is to follow someone else. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!