[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Yes, the God of Gods that we know of today did come from the Bible. But what of before that? Where did those Gods come from? How did man know that there was a Great Creator? Look at the sky, point in the air and tell me where it ends. Tell me how it came to be.

The bible tells us 'how it all came to be' in the first few pages of the Book of Genesis. You simply refuse to accept it. Your choice.

ALL mankind knows that there is a God of some sort. Some believe differently than others. Whether you worship Budda, Allah, Zues, whomever, the point stands that through out history, man knew that someone, or something created this Earth. That in and of itself is the basis of my belief.

If you didn't have the bible, that vague type of 'belief' would be sufficient, as it was for mankind for a very long time and still is for the very few who may not have ever heard of God, Jesus or seen, much less read, a bible. You and the rest of the civilized world have had the scriptures for a long time so there is no excuse. You simply deny God's Word as being, well, God's Word. Again: your choice.

God may be omnipotent, but He gave man free will. Believing that men are incapable of Changing the word of God is absurd, and you show your ignorance. King James himself changed the Bible in his version. In his translation, some words could not be translated, so in all his wisdom, he substitued what he thought should fit. Did God willfully allow this to happen, who knows. Maybe it is as God wanted it to be, but the word of God has been molested over the years to fit with what the writers felt it should mean. Get over it. Deal with it, and move along.

You've made the old atheist claims against the validity of the bible based on a total lack of knowledge, as your many sometimes ridiculous 'examples' have clearly shown to anyone reading this thread. The Word is still accurate and true. Nothing of consequence in the bible was ever changed due to translations, as atheists always try to claim, with no proof. Minor words changed in translations that do not affect meaning don't alter the truth of scripture, whether you like it or not. Deal with that and stop looking for loopholes to ignore what you don't want to face - the turth of the bible, including it's moral absolutes.

Show me where is says a woman shouldn't lie with another woman

Again, show me. Point to it. Post the chapter and verse. I really want to read it.

Your bibical ignorance undercuts your vain attempts at cleverness and sarcasm. Wake up! If homosexuality is forbidden between men, according to scripture, why would it be O.K. for women? That is illogical. Jesus (and the Apostles, later) admonished against allowing ANYTHING to 'master you'. That includes sex, money-love, power, drugs, booze, etc. Get it? Stop pretending that f scripture doesn't refer specifically to some behaviour or substance, it's O.K. That's playing games with God's Word. I see this kind of game played by two kinds of people: atheists and those who claim to 'believe' but want to excuse anything they want to do in life as O.K. because it isn't mentioned by name in the bible. That kind of nonsense may impress someone else but not me and much more importantly, not God.

So the Disciples were insulting Him too then? Did they not call Him the Great Teacher? Careful, your ignorance is showing.

No, yours is, as usual. You are way over your head here and you know it. Your bibical knowledge and lack of understanding is quite clear.

The disciples did not all immediately believe that Jesus was truly the Messiah or that He would die for the world's sins, then rise, alive again, after three days. Remember 'doubting Thomas'? He certainly thought that Jesus was dead and buried and had not risen until he saw the nail-holes in Jesus' hands. Judas betrayed Jesus so he obviously never thought Jesus was who He said He was (the Son of God). While many called Jesus 'teacher' (Rabbi) the disciples - before and after the resurrection - called Jesus 'teacher' but they also called Him 'Lord' and worshiped him, not as a mere 'teacher' but as the Son of God, which He was. To say Jesus was just a 'great teacher', which was your inference, insults His power.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this, just so that you will re-read that part in the Bible, and see what it says about the great flood. I'm begining to think that you just like to argue, and that you really just don't want to admit that I just might have a point.

I've read the bible many times and you really have no 'point' except that of one who seeks to put human limits on what God did with Noah and many others in the ancient world. That's your mistake and you can't see it (or won't). You sit there, like many others today, all smug in your 'scientific' knowledge, thinking that you have it all figured out while God laughs at your 'knowledge' that assumes anything Noah did had to be limited to what a mortal man could accomplish, even though God clearly directed Noah every step of the way preceeding the flood. The Old Testament is a history of God's working with mankind and you still want to pretend that if a mere man couldn't do something, it never happened. How shallow. How predictable. By the way, there is good physical evidence of a great flood in ancient times but naturally the secular scientific community dismisses it. That's why we do not rely on modern human conclusions regarding ancient events. Most scientists want to refute the bible and some religious zealots try to make any possible evidence found 'prove' what it often cannot, due to age and inconclusive data. I don't need some scrap of paarchment or some dubious ancient relic to secure my faith. No one should.

I don't 'like to argue', especially about the bible and Christianity, but I have to defend it and try to correct lies and vast distortions and misunderstands - as you put forth here - when I see them. To ignore your claims and often ridiculous assertations would be remiss of me when I know better. I have no illusions that anything I post will change your opinion. It never does with people who have made up their mind and rejected the bible as the Word of God. That's why I would really like to end this exchange but you won't let me as you keep posting more silly claims and playing atheist 'gotcha! games with scripture. I wish you would knock it off. I do have other sites I like to post on.

Moses lived at the same time as Ramesis(sp?), right? Well, we've seen the evidence of him having ran around the Earth. We've seen the evidence that his civilization was in the desert. Even after thousands of years. Now the Egyptians didn't keep records of thier faults, so I don't expect to hear or see anything from them that Moses and the Jews escaped from Egypt. However, there is no record of the Egyptians ever having Jews as slaves, other than the Bible, of course. Ignorance. it's really a shame that you are so narrow minded that you aren't capable of rational thought, or logical thought, rather. We learn more when we ask questions, they may be questions we can't answer, but we still learn from them. It's mind numbing that you are that self diluged(sp?), that you can't see the world before you. Calling me an atheist is not only the single most incoherant thought in the history of man, but it is just plain silly.

Your 'questions' are those that every atheist 'asks' and they are meant to refute the bible - but they do not, especially when the whole of Christianity is based on faith, not some fossil or relic that would really prove nothing. If I could prove Moses lived, you would then say, "O.K., but did he do what it says in the bible? Prove that"! You see, there is really no end to the 'questions' when you don't want any answers you don't like. As for calling you an atheist: I say that only because you make the exact same arguments - word for word - that atheists make. I see God's presence in the world around me as well as in my heart. Obviously you do not. Calling someone who mimics atheist talking points verbatim, as you do, has no reason to resent being called an atheist.

Again, you have got to take the blinders off sometime. I am not calling the Bible the work of the devil. I am trying to understand more about God. I am trying look at all the "evidence", if you will, and decide for myself what is and what isn't. My statement concerning the Bible being the work of the devil, was more of a statement to make you think, rather than accept. I know that of all people to have written the Bible, Satan is the least likely "person". I use that term loosely.

I'm so relieved.

You are undoubtably the most hard headed person I have ever come across.

No, I'm simply stedfast in my faith, have years of bible study to draw on and know what I believe and why. Few people do. I also have had many debates - on the internet and in person - with atheists so I've heard and seen it all before. You posted nothing that was new to me.

I am willing to bet that you are Catholic. It's just a guess, but are you?

No. I'm a Protestant. Fundamentalist Christian variety.

There is no reason to argue with you anymore. I have alot to learn aout scripture, I'll admit. You have absolutly no concept of free thinking. You must be the type of person that takes everything at face value. I may not believe the Bible to be what it, and you, claim it to be, but if by divine intervention, or my own recognisince(sp?) I find the answers to my questions, and it brings me closer to God, then isn't that worth my time?

Ah, a Free Thinker. I once was just like you and at 17, although I believed in God as Creator and Jesus as Savior, I started to doubt the bible. All those Old Testament stories. the harsh commands. The wars, the killing, the weird rules, the mysteries of the Book of Revelation. What is true and what isn't? Well, I re-read the bible (King James version then, NIV now) carefully and with an open heart, not 'looking for loopholes'. I prayed for guidance. I worked at it, a little at a time. Frankly, it took me a long time to reconcile everything and I don't - to this day - pretend to understand every single thing in scripture or about God but the biggest awakening I had was when I finally understood that God is truly omnipotent and as He created the universe, the earth and man, to doubt that He can do anything He chooses to do with it - and us - is silly. There are many good books on bible study that directly answer most of the usual 'how come..." questions on the bible. Any good Christian bookstore has them and I suggest you spend more time reading and learning than debating the bible on the internet. That would be much more productive in your 'search for truth'.

I am not concerned whether or not I am a "Christian" by your present deffinition of that word. I am concerned with what my relationship with God is, and no one can tell me how to worship Him, not even the Pope. Until God speaks to me and tells me in His human voice that I am 180 degrees out, I will continue believing what I feel I am supposed to believe.

Oh dear. I could quote scripture that addresses what happens when a man tries to decide how to worship God on his own, absent what God tells us in the bible, but you don't accept the bible so, you see, we have nowhere to go.

You twist everything I say, making yourself feel like I am denouncing everything you believe in. This is far from the case. Careful that you do not judge what you don't understand. I can understand you questioning my methods, or questions, even my comments, but you don't have the right to call me something I am not.

I wish you well on your journy through life. May you be right and I be damned, for your sake. Take care. Later.

I only call you what you appear to be, based on your own words. I am glad to know that you are not an atheist but I fear that your resistance to the truth of the bible as God's Word will lead you into becoming one some fine day. It isn't hard to do these days. I pray that I'm wrong. Really. I exchanged messages with you, not to win an argument or antagonize you but to show you the folly of dismissing the Word of God, without which your 'faith' is very likely to crumble sooner rather than later. I do not want to see anyone 'damned'. Neither does God, which he why he gave us both Jesus and the bible. I pray that you decide not to ignore or dismiss it as you grow in your Christian walk. If I have been at all offensive here, I apologize. It's my passion that sometimes overrules my better judgement and it's all too easy to be sarcastic on the internet. I meant well and wanted to instruct, correct and maybe add some bibical knowledge to your understanding of scripture and God's plan for our lives. I tried.

I wish you well too and if you must have a 'last word', which is fine with me, please don't make it one that forces me to respond because we'll never end this exchange that way and I think we're both weary of each other by now.