Bush an Oil Tycoon, or a President?

[Unit 5302]

I'm terribly disappointed with his worthless plan.

It does absolutely nothing for the next 2 or three years.

Even the Republican's want nothing to do with it. Unless congress reacts and other Republican's step up and walk past Bush we will continue to be robbed by the American Oil Refinery's.

It's depressing to see how Bush is not acting as a President, and instead is protecting his own personal interests by allowing the ridiculous price of gas to continue to skyrocket. His plan also allows for brownouts and blackouts to continue. It's quite sad really. If his plan is enacted, the Democrats will control congress and the Presidency next term.

American oil companies are ALL posting RECORD profits. This price fixing that is going on is absolutely SICK. Bush should be beaten. I am seriously wishing I had not voted for him at this point. I should have penciled in Mr 5.0.

As fuel costs continue to soar in the Midwest due to the sudden and unexpected shutdown of 4 refineries, 1 due to problems with output control. Can this be anymore see-thru? It's incredible... They have blatently shut down refineries for no other reason than to intentionally cause a fuel shortage so that they can demand more money for their product. Once the artificial increase in fuel costs is in place, they will turn the refinery's back on and never drop the price. They are just buttering us up for the shaft.

If this is not price fixing I have no idea what is. Unless congress acts quickly and Bush get's his **** together we will be screwed!

They are soooooooooo stupid! It's unreal. The Middle East is finally becoming powerful and working together to control oil prices, and now is the time the ******* idiots want to screw around the American people??? What happens when the Arab nation's decide they are willing to work together to get $40 a barrel??? Are the refinery's going to keep piling on the charges? Will they have to? Most companies I know of try to budget their expansion based on revenue, is this not true? What happens when the oil industry decides to begin expanding it's interest's? When they actually need to keep a certain level of profit and the Arab's raise prices on oil the average people in this country will take it in the *** !!! Let's take advantage of the situation we have right now and use it to our advantage before the Middle East begins to demand huge increases for it's product and the American oil companies are so invested in their newfound revenue that they NEED to continue making a certain level of profit on the products they sell so that we CANNOT receive a price break even if they want to give us one.

[This message has been edited by Unit 5302 (edited 05-17-2001).]

[dinomite]

oil tycoon, and dumb as a brick!

[Power]

Originally posted by Unit 5302:

...They are soooooooooo stupid! It's unreal. The Middle East is finally becoming powerful and working together to control oil prices, and now is the time the ******* idiots want to screw around the American people??? What happens when the Arab nation's decide they are willing to work together to get $40 a barrel??? Are the refinery's going to keep piling on the charges? Will they have to? Most companies I know of try to budget their expansion based on revenue, is this not true? What happens when the oil industry decides to begin expanding it's interest's? When they actually need to keep a certain level of profit and the Arab's raise prices on oil the average people in this country will take it in the ***...

Uhhh....yeah. So then why is every democrat so against producing our own oil in our own country, i.e. Alaska drilling. Bush is making one mistake in that he is planning for the long run and its going to cost him if something doesn't change now. Thats proof to me that he cares more about the people than himself. But then again I'm a ditto-head so I'm lower than scum.

The only thing I'm disappointed in with Bush is the fact that I think he let China off a little too easy. But he might be waiting to get our plane back before taking action so I will wait and see.

Lib's just don't like Bush because he doesnt talk down on people like Willie. By the way, see that Bill got egged in Poland??

[GaryDawg]

Bush Jr. is just doing his daddy's bidding... And George Sr. turned into a Nazi while running the CIA...

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My '98 Vegas Pony


'98 Rio Red Clearcoat Convertible GT
Full black leather, K&N Filter, Kenny Brown Extreme Matrix Kit with Super Subs, 9mm FRPP ignition wires (RED), 5-speed, 3.27, All the options...
Great lookin' Blonde in the passenger seat!
Next to come...

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by Power:

Uhhh....yeah. So then why is every democrat so against producing our own oil in our own country, i.e. Alaska drilling. Bush is making one mistake in that he is planning for the long run and its going to cost him if something doesn't change now. Thats proof to me that he cares more about the people than himself.

I'm not talking about drilling for American reserves. Bush is in favor of that for multiple reasons, including strenthening his investments. Bottom line is it would be WAY more cost efficient and in our best interest to set a deal up with Russia to provide them with the equipment to drill in Siberia. The Democrats oppose it because the Republicans don't. It's typical bi-partisanship.

I have no party affiliation, and read my post. I voted for BUSH.

About the China incident, they have every right in the world to be pissed and keep our plane. We kept their planes for YEARS after the they ticked us off with Taiwan, or Tianaman Square. I forgot which. Anyway, we had a contract to repair a few of their fighters, then when they pissed us off, we quit working on them, seized them, and sent them a bill for storage!! You really think they are gonna forget that?

[Capri306]

Personally, I really believe there's nothing GW can do for the here and now. His long-term plan is the only thing that's going to work for sure. You have to remember that gasoline is a free market product, part of our "free" capitalist economy. What would you have us do, revert to socialism and have the government run these types of businesses? Do you really want somebody from the fed setting the price of a gallon of gasoline? It'd start there, and then the next thing you know they'll be setting the prices on a pair of bluejeans. We have to keep the government's control as far away from the economy as possible to keep competition and a free market viable.

I do agree, however, the price gouging that the oil companies have been screwing us with need to be addressed. When the FTC (or whoever) went after Microsoft, I think they were going after the wrong guys. The government should've stopped Exxon and Mobil from merging. I think that's when we got really screwed over; talk about a virtual monopoly, man! That's a lotta refinement capacity between them.

The dumbocrats are arguing that they should listen to the people about what direction to take on the energy "crisis," which is idiotically stupid bull$hit if you ask me. How many people out of the American population are energy experts? Like less than 0.001%? Like we're going to know what the best decision is. They must have missed the day in Political Science 101 when the prof told us that we elect officials to make these decisions for us. Just an *** -kissing appeal if you ask me.

If you watched GW's speech on his energy plan today, he said the key words that will automatically drive gas prices down: conservation and increased supply (aka supply and demand). Using our petroleum more efficiently and cranking up refinery capacity is what it means, bascially. With all of the new powerplants preported to be built, I think we'll see the energy cost go down. But as said before, it won't happen overnight. We're only in this pickle because Clintler's administration left us with NOTHING to build on. No plan for the future, just tapping into our strategic oil reserves to band-aid a problem that will plague us in future years if some of the proposed measures are not developed.

I'm tired of the tree-huggers throwing a fit every time a new power plant or oil exploration comes around. There was some idiot with a "NO NUKES!" sign outside where GW was delivering his speech. Um, okay, we haven't built a single nuclear power plant since 1973, for God's sake!!! Hell, it's one of the most plentiful and environmentally clean sources of energy we can get! Even disposal won't be a problem in the future if the repeal on the ban of using plutonium (spent nuke fuel) goes through. The solar idea for households I do like, though. Free energy is cool.

Okay, I'm done. Just had to get that off my chest, hehehhe.

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Capri306, Moderator, The Mustang Works Online
1979 Mercury Capri, 5.0L -- C4 -- 2.73
1987 Mustang LX Notch

[Power]

Fusion is another form of energy that isn't being researched fast enough. And I think that has to do with Energy Companies scared by a new kind of power.

[95mustanggt]

Well I'm not an American, but I think that you guys are the ones who have to get there sh*t in order so your fellow muscle car buddies can also enjoy low gas prices.

If prices stay this high, that only puts more pressure on alternate fuels and more fuel efficient cars. Which is a good thing, but that will seriously harm these oil companies in the future. They should consider that.

I don't know squat about the US's plans for energy but I sure hope it's a good one, for all our sake.

[Hammer]

Boy, this is a good thread, so I'll have to Chime in on a few things....

1. We are DEFINATELY getting gouged on gas prices, and the oil companies are making record profits. Alternative fuel motorcars, although coming fairly soon, will not be viable soon enough to keep the issue from effecting auto makers. Just how much cash are the big 3 making from SUVs? You can be sure that you'll see the big auto makers fighting the high gas prices as much as us.

If you've ever been to Europe, you'll realise just how lucky we've been for so long as far as petroleum prices go, as expensive as it is here, its even more expensive there....

Give this stuff about another 6 months, and you'll see that many of the tree-hugger soccer moms who drive SUVs won't give a diddly-doo about the endangered Alaskan spotted turtle-nosed ferret when they're paying 3 bucks a gallon for unleaded.

Refineries: We need em, let's get them (responsibly)

2. Electrical Energy:
Nuclear fusion is the future and more resources should be put into research toward this goal. We can use more Hydro-electric, solar, and wind power stations to get enviro friendly electricity for our MP3 players.
I would suggest fission power as a stop-gap measure until other sources become realistically viable\widespread.
Spent nuclear rods? Send them into the sun. A little cash from the power companies could certainly help the space program....

3. China:
Speaking as a pilot and veteran, anyone who thinks that a P-3 recon plane on autopilot could intentionally ram or accidentally clip even a 60's designed fighter aircraft is just plain high....

China has a right to be angry? For what?
For losing a pilot who was performing dangerous maneuvers next to a slow, cumbersome turboprop on autopilot in international airspace?

For having their "feelings" violated because of the presence of a recon aircraft in international airspace?
One more time... INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE...
Their territorial sovereignty was never threatened and their airspace was never crossed until AFTER the collision. By this time the crew just wanted to find an airfield ANYWHERE to land the stricken aircraft. If I were that commander, would I have made the same decision to land in communist China? Maybe not, but I wasn't there. So I'm not going to try to make a judgement.
Folks, unless you live under a rock, you must realize that everyone spies on everyone else..... Secrets are held and espionage is done every day even between FRIENDLY COUNTRIES! Do you really think that the Chinese government is not aggressively spying on the United States? I guarantee you that they are. The only reason they are not using a similar aircraft for the same use is that they don't have the capability.
Russia and the US have been doing these games for years and continue today. One country will fly a recon plane in international airspace, the other will send "escorts" to monitor the first plane.
99 percent of the time, that's all that happens. If you add an irresponsible butt-head who thinks he's Maverick from Top Gun into the mix.... Aircraft get messed up and people die.
China needs to figure out how to play well with others in the sandbox, including their own people...
maybe then there will be less of a need for intelligence\data from that part of the globe.

Rant over...

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"The Yellowjacket"
Ricer 1: What the heck was that!?
Ricer 2: I don't know. It looked kind of like a yellow SN95 Mustang.
Ricer 1: Nah, fast SN95 Mustangs don't exist... Must have been a mirage or something...

[13sec95vert]

if you want to know what i think click here politics




[This message has been edited by 13sec95vert (edited 05-18-2001).]

[oldman]

Hello again, this is medik418, had to get a new nickname since I disappeared for so long but alas, here I is.
so much for formality.
I gotta go on record on this one. Yes, we have every reason to be mad at the oil companies for the high oil prices but put the blame where it belongs, there's a lots of folks responsible for the energy mess the country is in and it ain't all the big refiners that are gouging us. Each of us is partially to blame.
Bu now you might guess I'm sympathetic to the big oil boyz, sorta. . .they feed my family and yes they do it well.
I will address as many concerns posted here as I know how and the rest will just have to remain a mytery until someone with more oil savvy comwes along.
1. The oil refiners are to blame for the high gas prices: One of my partners in crime likes to compare the price of Nike shoes to gas prices. Nobody gripes about paying 130 bucks for an 8 dollar pair of shoes but don't get em started on gas prices. Anyway, look in your local papar in the business section where it lists all of the stocks and stuff. Somewhere in there you will find the price of gasoline "out the door" from them refineries. I promise, it's there. Right now in the Texas panhandle where the average price for regular unleaded is arounf $1.65, it's goig out of the refineries at 94 cents a gallon.
this same 94 cents a gallon is within a dime of what refined gas has been selling for for the last ten years. Once the jobbers take delivery the gas prices are controlled solely by their greed and the market demand. One of the firemen I work with leases a gas station here in town and through him I have learned a lot about unscrupulous jobbers. For those who are not familiar with the jobber moniker, they are the guys who buy the gas from the refineries and transport it to the gas stations. True there are some refiners that still deliver their own gas but they are few and far between. Anywho, my buddy's jobber keeps hasseling him to raise his prices which are already the highest in town, (it's a really small place) He usually does this when questioned as to why his delivered price is so high. The station owner adds 5 cents a gallon by the way. The station owner is at the complete mercy of the jobber and his price fluctuates weekly. Figure the jobber is going to make a 5 cent change for every penny the refiner changes. You want to complain about the price hikes, clobber the jobbers, who by the way are also calling themselves "oil companies"
2. The refiners have all posted record profits for this year: Yes they have! I cannot speak for all companies but the one I work for made lossa money. Part of the reason is that they have been sitting on oil reserves they bought way back in 1972, I'm talking millions of barrels of cheap oil that they have been storing since the days when oil was cheap and they had the forsight to put some back for a rainy day. Once the market was ripe they used these reserves and made millions off it. See, there isn't any shortage of oil, OPEC has decided to control the production to raise the price but it's still there. A lot of companies don't drill for their own oil and rely heavily on exploration and production companies to supply them with oil. Problem is many of them rely too much on OPEC countries to supply it.
Big oil companies don't rely on gas prices for their profit margins, there's a whole grocery list of products in a barrel of oil that bring in a lot more money than gas. It goes like this, buy a barrel of oil (42 gallons) for 29 bucks and refine it until you get everything you can out of it. the profit you end up with after everything is factored in, (costs of refining, final prices of products, etc.) is called the "Crack Spread" (it's an old refining term) Historically, the crack spread has run around 2 to 3 dollars a barrel. This is what refiners call profit, for the last year the crack spread has remained above 9 dollars a gallon and peaked at close to 13 a few times. It's not all about gasoline, we make products in our chemicals division that sell for a couple of thousand bucks a gallon. But that's another story.
All in all gas is still a bargain when you consider how much it costs to make now compared to twenty years ago. We have to buy electricity and water and fuel gas just like everyone else and believe me it isn't cheap. An example: we have one furnace in our plant that uses 15 million standard cubic feet per day of natural gas as feed which it converts to hydrogen for use in sulfur removal(yes this is all the result of environmental regs) it also uses 30 million scfd of the same gas to fire the burners (all 194 of them). This is purchased from another company and we pay through the nose for it. This is from ONE furnace and there are dozens in the plant. Look at your gas bill and compare your usage to this.

You want to lower gas prices? Bottom line, stop driving so much. Get rid of the gas guzzling SUV's and start using less gas. Big oil companies are suffering from a lack of refining capacity and the solution is still years away even if they do get permission to build more refineries. It takes ten to fifteen years to build one refinery so that idea for a solution just flew south. As long as there is a demand for the stuff like we are seeing now it's going to continue to rise.
In last year's American petroleum Institute meeting, it was predicted that by the year 2006, you will not be able to buy a new vehicle that is not a hybrid of some sort. This was backed up by the major auto manufacturers by the way so get ready. Why? Because we are using too much gas, PERIOD! After the big scare in the seventies, there was a major effort to increase fuel economy and people started actually using less gasoline, well, it worked. Refineries started closing as a result of lower demand and the trend lasted long enough that oil companies bulldozed the refineries that were mothballed and sold others to smaller companies who could not compete with the newer, larger, more efficient refineries and eventually shut down. then all of a sudden gas got cheap again and SUV's got a stranglehold on the market and the whole world started using boatloads of gas again. The only hitch is the refiners got caught with their collective pants down and can't keep up. Like I said, there's lots of oil, just not enough capacity to make gas out of it. Until there is, you and I will have to be the answer. There's no magic cure, and there ain't gonmna be one for a lotta years. Did you ever think that if a big oil company could get a rediculous price for a product they would be jumping through hoops to make more of it? The bottom line is that they are jumping through those hoops as I write this but it's going to take time to realize the results. Rest assured they are counting on our continued high usage to finance these projects.
sorry, for the long winded post, but I had to vent. I'll try to answer any questions you guys might have since I know this is going to fire a lot of you up.
thanks for listening

[95mustanggt]

Originally posted by Hammer:
If you've ever been to Europe, you'll realise just how lucky we've been for so long as far as petroleum prices go, as expensive as it is here, its even more expensive there....

...We can use more Hydro-electric, solar, and wind power stations to get enviro friendly electricity for our MP3 players....

Just to add to this thought...
Europe and North America should never be compared with prices. We are two very different places, culturealy and geographily (sp?).

We can't just go using all the so-called "good power sources".
The flooding from hydro power destroys massive amounts of wildlife habitat and is argueally just as bad as other source.
Wind Power stations require massive enviromental damage when they are established (needs lots of land to create the required power)
Solar Power...ever wonder what goes into the making of solar power panels? I bet the energy and chemicals that get put into making them and no better for the environment than anything else.

simple fact: Power is not clean or evironmentally safe.

Sorry for going so off topic, and my spelling...I am really do crappy right now, time to go home.

[Mr 5 0]

Unit 5302:

Good thread and I have little to add to the cogent comments already posted, although I do disagree with some of them, especially the fatuous ones that accuse President Bush of promoting an energy policy that was designed simply to enrich him or his 'friends'. That's wrong, as are the naive, 'Daddy' remarks that some seem to swallow whole from liberal media shills. But these are small points in a pretty wide-ranging discuassion.

I don't have the time right now to get into this in depth, but anyone who believes government price controls on gasoline are some sort of solution, are seriously misguided. Think 1973. Price controls do not work in an otherwise free economy and are not a viable response. We don't want to go there.

One simple reason for our gas shortage is obvious...more people. Our population (America) is growing and so is our vehicle ownership, which means bigger demand for gas, despite the huge advances in gasoline efficiency of todays vehicles.

Finally; taxes on gas are very high. They are not coming down. My state (Connecticut) has one the highest gas taxes in the nation.
We also are required to use the reformulated gas, which adds to the price. It all hurts.

The Bush energy plan (and I haven't studied it in detail) has over 40 conservation measures and is a plan for the future, not a quick fix, ala Clinton. There is no quick fix and I don't want the government trying to provide one and screwing up the situation.
This what usually happens when a bunch of self-serving politicians get in the way.
We cry for somebody to 'fix it' and they come out of the woodwork, like roaches.
Six months later you're paying still more and nothing is fixed, while the Republicans and Democrats try to pin the blame on each other and everybody wants to blame the President.

I may have a few more thoughts at a later date, but I've enjoyed the input on this subject which affects us all, liberal or conservative, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian or Independent. I don't believe the Bush plan is all that bad, and the fact that he was bold enough to propose one at all (unlike Clinton) is impressive, in itself.

[oldman]

I agree wholehertedly on the issue of government price controls on ANYTHING! Have you EVER heard of a government program that worked? Better yet, have you ever seen any form of industry in the world that benefitted from government intervention? Look what happened when the EPA got into regulating the auto industry. True they are finally getting vehicles close to a harmonic balance concerning emissions and performance but it took 25 years to undo what our Bozos in Washington caused. Look what happened to California when the good ole gub'ment decided to help the power industry. . .can you say "Disaster"?
By the way, the results were released this week. . . today's cars average the worst mileage in 20 years.

[Try Me]

You would think a high demand would mean lower costs to the buyer.

It's the taxes man, that's what's hurtin' us!
Stupid taxes.

[Unit 5302]

As far as China having a right to be pissed off, that has more to do with us basically stealing their fighters a few years back, keeping them and then billing them for storage. Not their idiot pilots losing flight time because MS Flight Simulator crashed again, LOL.

Bush's long term goals are not bad, there just aren't any short term one's like holding a session on Price Gouging.

The refinery's and American Oil company's are making record profits, big mergers have enabled them to Price Fix. This needs to be addressed, now.

The problem we have with nuclear fusion is exactly the opposite of superconductors. To create fusion, the temperature needs to be close to the Sun. Am I not correct in my statement when I say halogen headlamps burn hotter than the surface of the sun?

As far as the oil companies making more gas because it's so profitable, it's not. Neither is sugar, or wheat, or many other products used in the huge quantities like gas is. What causes this is competition. The oil industry has eliminated most of this by merging, so it allows them to price fix for a higher profit. (See record profits while most other industries are getting setbacks due to a slowing economy)

15 years to build a refinery? Just wait and see what happens when the demand goes through the roof. If they can build the Mall of America here in MN in just a couple years, they can certainly pump out a refinery in like time if so desired.

Tryme, ever heard of supply and demand? The more people that want something, the more it's worth.

[MidnightBlue]

Can I just say...I told you so?

I remember when Bush was being elected a huge debate on the board about how everything was going to heck in a handbasket with environmental regulations at the hands of the democrats that could be elected?

I find it ironic now that everyone has issues with the president they voted for not caring about power outages and gas prices.

That is all.

[97snakedriver]

Originally posted by Unit 5302:
I'm terribly disappointed with his worthless plan.

It does absolutely nothing for the next 2 or three years.

Can't do it. Its not possible. Jimmy Carter proved this over and over and over. Bush NOT saying this will be fixed in a couple years, which would be politically to his advantage to do so, is more of a promising sign then anything else.

Even the Republican's want nothing to do with it. Unless congress reacts and other Republican's step up and walk past Bush we will continue to be robbed by the American Oil Refinery's.

Oh come on. Sure the CEOs of oil companies make **** loads of money, but even now we also have the cheapest gas in the world.

This is goes for CA power crisis also. Refineries and power plants are big dirty things that no one wants in their back yard. Lots of polititions took advantage of this by saying, "I won't build power plants". Well **** , populations grow (in some areas, such as CA) and fuel demands increase. All of a sudden supply excedes demand and well, here we are. This situation is a product of what people DIDN'T DO 6-10 years ago, not what has happened in the last year. This is NOT anything new to anyone that actually follows or studies this.

Of course the media has the attention span of a gnat and complicated issues like this don't generate ratings until they bite you in the *** .

It's depressing to see how Bush is not acting as a President, and instead is protecting his own personal interests by allowing the ridiculous price of gas to continue to skyrocket.

Still the cheapest...

His plan also allows for brownouts and blackouts to continue. It's quite sad really.

You have 5 apples and 6 of your friends want apples. Somebody ain't getting an apple.

You can produce X amount of power. The demand is X+Y. Y ain't getting power. Power plants don't grow on trees or run on good intentions.

If his plan is enacted, the Democrats will control congress and the Presidency next term.

Maybe, but I hardly blame this on Bush trying to fix an inherited problem the RIGHT way despite the short sightedness of the American public.

They are soooooooooo stupid! It's unreal. The Middle East is finally becoming powerful and working together to control oil prices, and now is the time the ******* idiots want to screw around the American people???

Wait... I thought this was the evil American cooperations... Now its the middle east?

What happens when the Arab nation's decide they are willing to work together to get $40 a barrel??? Are the refinery's going to keep piling on the charges? Will they have to?

Hmmm... Maybe we should take steps to make ourselves more self sufficient? But oh wait! That would be making money for those evil American oil tycoons.

Let's take advantage of the situation we have right now and use it to our advantage before the Middle East begins to demand huge increases for it's product and the American oil companies are so invested in their newfound revenue that they NEED to continue making a certain level of profit on the products they sell so that we CANNOT receive a price break even if they want to give us one.

Yep. Lets kill them all and take their oil. They aren't very nice people, so its okay.

[This message has been edited by 97snakedriver (edited 05-19-2001).]

[97snakedriver]

Originally posted by Unit 5302:

About the China incident, they have every right in the world to be pissed and keep our plane. We kept their planes for YEARS after the they ticked us off with Taiwan, or Tianaman Square. I forgot which. Anyway, we had a contract to repair a few of their fighters, then when they pissed us off, we quit working on them, seized them, and sent them a bill for storage!! You really think they are gonna forget that?

Bull **** !

Hey, guess what? China flies, has flown, and will continue to fly the SAME sorts of flights over INTERNATIONAL WATER as we do. The USSR has done the same thing and continues to do so. There was NOTHING illegal or COVERT about that flight. The only catch China has is that they claim a 200 mile cost line terratory. The only reason they do so is because they, Vietnam, and Korea all have claims to the Spratley Islands which are uninhabided, but appear to have large oil reserves.

[97snakedriver]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0:

One simple reason for our gas shortage is obvious...more people. Our population (America) is growing and so is our vehicle ownership, which means bigger demand for gas, despite the huge advances in gasoline efficiency of todays vehicles.

Actually that's bearly true. The US population growth is bearly above the rate of self sustention, and that will drop sharply as the last generation of baby boomers + 1 go beyond child rearing age, combined with a steady economic boom combined with the growth of the suburban spraw, which is in itself a product of the lessingly of the average house hold size, ie more single parents.

The Bush energy plan (and I haven't studied it in detail) has over 40 conservation measures and is a plan for the future, not a quick fix, ala Clinton. There is no quick fix and I don't want the government trying to provide one and screwing up the situation.

Couldn't agree more.