POLL: Do we belong in Afgani?

[srv1]

do you think we should be over there? do you think it is going to make a difference when its all done?

[PKRWUD]

They have one of the largest untapped oil reserves in the world! Of course we should be there.

Take care,
-Chris

[Mach 1]

Dont you have anything better to do than make these polls up all the time?

Yes, we should be there, job security.

[Mr 5 0]

The U.S. long-range plan is to keep a small military and civilian diplomatic presence in Afghanistan for the long run but we do not intend to keep a huge military presence there.

Experience has shown that you cannot impose democracy, it must develop from within the population and we hope to eventually help lead Afghanistan in that direction.
May happen, may not.

For now, we just want a stable and non-terrorist-supporting government there, which we have. Women are no longer treated worse than dogs and we have pretty much destroyed the terrorists infrastructure and the terrorist leaders are dead or scattered elsewhere.
So far, so good.

We don't care if Afghanistan becomes the flower of the Muslim world, we want it to no longer be a base for terrorists. We've accomplished that. Now, we need to keep it terrorist-free, which we will.

From your poll questions, I get the impression that you're skeptical about the U.S. involvement in Afghanistan.

That pitiful country was a base for Osma bin Laden, the chief terrorist and architect of 9/11.
President Bush gave fair warning to the Taliban but they ignored us and held anti-American demonstrations in the streets in response. Three weeks later, we struck. The U.S. military took great pains to avoid bombing civilian population centers, even though the Taliban terrorists keep munitions and troops in mosques, schools and hospitals to protect them.

After we routed the terrorists and destroyed the Taliban, we helped install a coalition government of tribal leaders to administer the affairs of Afghanistan. Later, they'll hold elections.

Afghanistan will never become America but it will be friendly to us as well as stable, allowing us a mid-eastern military base and oil reserves to draw on. The fact that the Afghanistan people are about 50 times better off economically and have more freedom than they've had in decades is a nice bonus - for them.

Yeah, we should be there, it will make a difference and we won't just 'feel' more secure my friend, we'll be more secure, as will all the Afghan people.

[srv1]

AHH Mr 5.0. i value your opinion. you think the terrorism is going to stop after the war is over? think again..... ask others that are from other countries and see what they think about Americans. you would be surprised of the majority that dislikes us. rememeber, the media isnt always correct. We are funding the largest terrorist orginization:Isreal. tell me why.....

[Mr 5 0]

srv1:

Are you serious?

The Arabs don't like us? The French! Oh, Boo Hoo. The horror! I'm wracked with guilt and remorse! What will we do!

Right.

You've been reading too much anti-Israel propaganda and you seem to believe that you have some inside knowledge about the mid-east. You don't; not if you're attempting to claim that only if we abandon support of Israel will terrorism end. Fat chance. That's the easy answer Arab apologists want you to buy but the truth is that terrorists are cowards and once they are denied the protection of sponsoring countries (as Afghanistan was), they'll be weakened and their threat to the U.S. will diminish if not quite totally subside. Terrorism will not end, especially in the mid-east; it's too easy to accomplish when your life has no value, but our government is attempting to stop Arab national leaders from importing it to the U.S. (9/11) by aiding, sheltering and supporting terrorist organizations.

Israel is the only democracy in the mid-east. It is a tiny, tiny sliver of land surrounded by enemies that hate Jews - just for being Jews. America has always helped Israel by supplying them with guns and money. Israel supplies the soldiers, not us. Without our support, Israel would have been wiped off the map years ago by those who hate Jews. It's not about land, it's about blind hatred toward a people. Our aid to Israel is something to be proud of.

How many Jews have been killed, murdered by Arabs while eating lunch or attending a prayer service? Israel retaliates when attacked. Arabs can't take it so they send teenagers, dreaming of Islamic glory and 72 virgins awaiting them, to blow themselves up in malls and disco's, killing and maiming innocent civilians and Israel is the 'terrorist'? That's absurd to the point of lunacy and anyone outside of the Arab world and the anti-Jew/anti-Israel block knows it, which is most of the world's rational population.

You say you value my opinion?
Thank you. Then take this advice; do some real study about the mid-east and stop swallowing the pro-Arab, anti-Israel propaganda that calls that tiny little beseieged ountry 'terrorists'.

You're spouting a pro-Arab, anti-Israel propaganda line and I have the feeling that you don't even fully realize it but instead, believe you have the 'real' truth about the mid-east. Sorry, you don't. You are misinformed and being led astray by those who blindly hate Jews and by extension, the U.S., for supporting Israel. Old news.

The population of Israel is about 5.8 million. The population of the surrounding, hostile Arab world is about 350 million. Yet Arabs claim that Israel is a dire threat that must be eliminated? Please.

Arabs hate Jews - it's tribal. Always have, always will.
The U.S. keeps Israel alive by supplying money and arms so that Israel can protect itself against overwhelming odds, surrounded by a sea of sworn enemies with modern weapons and the oil money to buy and develop lots more. Only U.S. economic and military aid and the determination of the people of that tiny Jewish state to 'never again' be pushed out of their land is doing the rest and you call them 'terrorists'?

Please open your eyes to the reality of the situation and don't be swayed by anti-Jewish propaganda that asserts if only the U.S. would abandon Israel all the Arabs would love us and the world would be set right again.

That's the Arab/Muslim fantasy they have pushed for decades. The U.S. media generally goes along, too, always finding a non-existent moral equivalence between the Palestinians and the Israelis, which is why I do not 'get' my information from TV , as most do. It's biased and often inaccurate toward Israel, as I've pointed out.

Terrorism as we now know it (since September 11th) begins and ends with Arab Muslims and attempts to stick the 'terrorist' label on Jews defending their homeland after being attacked for decades and having to fight two Arab-instigated wars in the past 35 years, is simply false.

[Mach 1]

Right on Mr 5.0!

I'm no foreign affairs expert but they way you described it is the way I understood it.

I often wondered how Israel could defend itself while being so small and surrounded by the enemy completely.

Turns out the Israeli's can fight like a rabid dog...they don't take no crap..and they don't hesitate to bring it when they need to.

Sure, our weapons help, but those are some of the most courageous soldiers in the world. What was the war where they were going to be totally destroyed by a huge Arab buildup completey surrounding them? The 6 day war? So what did they do? They said "Lets rock" and proceeded to take names and the Egyptians, Palestines, and Arabic buildup was retreating within days.

[mean81GT]

Deep breaths. you struck a nerve here. I live 40 miles from NYC. I worked there for years, until recently. My father is retired NYPD. My uncle started his elevator career in the World Trade Center. My cousin and my best friend were working on church street, litterly one block from the towers when the tragedy took place.

This tragedy has hit me very deeply. I have to see the skyline almost on a daily basis, and to see the towers gone, it feels like a piece of my heart is gone with them. Many people I know died in that event, and many more people I know were directly affected by it.

It is fact that Osama Bin Laden not only planned the attack, but funded it as well. He laughs about the event, happy to have caused so much horror and pain for America. We are a sympathetic country. We are always running to the aid of a less fortunate nation, always playing big brother for everyone else. We form a band of allies, and work together to make the world a better place for everyone, not just the people we get along with. We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the Pearl Harbor attack and WWII, and then what do we do? We help fund their rebuilding.

We should be in Afghanistan. We are protecting our interests, and helping the Afghan people at the same time. By helping them now, they will be around in 100 years to help our grandchildren's grandchldren. If a country harbor's terrorists, that country is a terrorist. America is the most powerful nation in the world. Certain groups have problems with that, because with us around, they can't push around nations like they are bullies. So, they attack us to make us afraid. They want to make us afraid of them, and then maybe we won't object when they want to take over the Gaza strip.

One last thing. If the state of California wanted to expand, and they took over Oregon, would you expect Russia to come over here and stop them? NO!. What if Mexico wanted to take Texas, will China send tropps to help us fight them off? Hell No! We are responsible for our own futures, and I trust in our leaders ability to protect our interests in the mid-east, and anywhere else in the world. I am not a politics nut, i don't even vote. But i feel strongly in my beliefs, and so does the rest of America. Why don't you?

[mean81GT]

now we get into a religion debate. ok, i'll play a little. where was jesus born? jerusalem. where is that? in israel. jesus was a jew, therefore jerusalem was jewish, therefore the jews belong heir. (they belong anywhere they want to be, as does everyone else, but that's different)

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by mean81GT
now we get into a religion debate. ok, i'll play a little. where was jesus born? jerusalem. where is that? in israel. jesus was a jew, therefore jerusalem was jewish, therefore the jews belong heir. (they belong anywhere they want to be, as does everyone else, but that's different)

I am 100% in support of Israel in this ongoing "disturbance", but I had to reply to your post.

You do realize that Israel proper is only 53 years old? It will turn 54 this May. When Jesus was alive, Jerusalem was ruled by Rome. With your logic, I guess Italy should be there now?

I'm on your side, but you need to think some of these things through first.

Take care,
-Chris

[Mr 5 0]

A very brief history of modern Israel:

Over the centuries, many nations ruled Judea/Israel including the Egyptians, Turks, Syrians and finally, during WWII, the British.

In 1917 the British passed a law known as the Balfour Declaration that approved of an independent Jewish state in the area known as Palestine. The Jewish presence increased over the years and helped bring modern civilization to the area.

in 1946, The United Nations recognized that both Jews and Arabs had a legitimate claim to a homeland and partitioned the area. The Jews accepted the partition plan of the UN. and the Arabs did not. The Arabs threatened to destroy Israel on the day she announced her birth. In 1948 Israel became an independent nation. No less than 5 Arab armies attacked Israel. These armies were comprised of or supported by the following nations: Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

Israel not only survived the attack but became victorious. Due to this war however, many of the local Arabs were displaced from their homes. Though they were told to evacuate Israel by their mother lands, Those same nations then refused to house them after they lost their homes in the war they initiated. These displaced people were placed in camps and kept there (as political pawns) by the enemies of Israel. Their descendants are known today as the Palestinians.

Arabs continued to attack Israel on and off over the years. A massive attack was formed in 1967. By May 17th, the troops of seven Arab nations gathered around Israel. Not long after a naval blockade by Egypt in the Gulf of Aquaba the Israeli's pre-emptively attacked. This war only lasted 6 days because Israel caught her enemies jet fighters while they were still on the ground. She annihilated the air forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. During this war Israel took what is known today as the Golan Heights, The West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem. Israel said she would keep Jerusalem but would return the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as soon as the Palestinians were serious about peace.

Israel has fought war on and off within her borders and without ever since.


Not comprehensive but a good overview of the history of modern-day Israel that I thought might be helpful to those who have some interest in the mid-east and needed some background.

[srv1]

Mr 5.0 deleted it yesterday cause he couldnt read between the lines and got offended when he was put in his place! he figures what HE SAYS goes, and if someone wants to point out the FACTS so be it. so MR 5.0 you may be an intellectual individual, but YOU DONT KNOW EVERYTHING and certainly dont know when to let someone to explain their views and facts. you may want to invest in a glass stomache! anti-american my A S S! you need to get a better scapegoat than that my friend! as for the flame wars, you need to pick up some better resources than your local news paper or CNBC! you can shut down this thread cause evidentally you cant take someone actually KNOWING MORE THAN YOU to be correct! you may be the administrator to this board, but that is all you are to me! live it up, cause your high horse is about to keel over and die!

We also reserve (and will use) the right to remove any member who is in violation of the rules regarding forum posting. .......cant think of a better way to respond to that post you deleted? hmmm......

[Mach 1]

Mr 5.0 usually holds his own in debates and is reasonable. There must be some other reason he deleted it?

[Mr 5 0]

All:

srv1, apparently unable to discuss the issues on his own, brought a ringer into the discussion and this person posted an anti-American, pro-terrorist diatribe about a mile long, full of inaccurate and outright false statements regarding American interests and Israel's role in the mid-east.

He ridiculed my former responses on this thread and name-called left and right, attempting to bait me into a pointless argument that simply would give his pro-Arab, pro-terrorist rants more visibility.

Sorry, no deal, Mohammad.

I'm willing to debate reasonable people in a reasonable manner but not to let some pro-Arab, America-hating ringer come on this website and rant all day about how brave the terrorists are and how evil the U.S. and Israel are.


Srv1 is free to hold contrary opinions of course but as he is unable to do much more than stomp his foot and yell silly, unfounded accusations at me about how little I know, there is no point in further discussion on this topic. Maturity comes later to some folks than to others, as thios thread now demonstrates.

Any Mustang Works member is quite free to express his/her views elsewhere but no one has any 'right' to abuse the MW messageboard privileges, as this poster did.

Considering the fact that this volitile topic has been discussed thoroughly here and has now disgressed into pointless sputtering from srv1 (apparently with no end in sight), the thread is (mercifully) closed.

I've left srv1's message up in the interest of fairness and to demonstrate the type of response that his pro-Arab buddy posted and that I found necessary to remove.

Sorry boys, Mustang Works isn't a democracy. You get a voice but not a vote on what is permissible on the forums.
When you spend the time and money to develop your own website you'll have the same options and we'll see how 'democratic' you are then
Meanwhile, you're a guest here. Act like one. and you'll always be welcomed, act like a jerk - and you're not. Simple.

Thanks to all who participated in a mature and thoughtful manner. Appreciated it.