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#41 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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![]() As far as the tax discussion..
I just got off a 13hr shift and really should have gone to bed but I just have to check the internet first, for some reason. I started making searches on the Bush tax plan and I find the whitehouse site and the "Citizens for Tax Justice" site. They both have figures up.. some the same, some different. I study it for a little while and try to figure out what each is trying to hide. I found it.. the truth. It hit me in the face like a brick! Here's the truth: The rich do benefit the most. The republicians are trying to hide the fact that the rich will benefit the most from the tax cuts and they will be saving more than what "The U.S. median income for a family of four" makes in a year. Actually the top one percent, folks who make over $373k, will be saving an average of $53,123. While those making between $15-27k are saving an average of $364. That's what the CTJ is proclaiming and its the truth. Its a hard pill to swallow for the general public, seeing as the general public is the working class. I personally will be saving 14.5% while someone in the top 1% will be saving 37.6%. That is what the Republican party is trying the hide. The white house site shows the top percentage as anyone making over $166,500. That's close to what my parents bring in and they are far from what I consider rich, my friend. What the Democrats are trying to hide: That those in the top tax bracket pay more of a percentage in taxes than the rest of us. The folks making over $297,350 pay 39.6%, they try to side track us from this fact. After the tax cuts the folks who pay over $166,500 will still be paying 33% of thier income(on average). For some reason the Republicans have that as the top tax bracket. I'm not done but I'm tired as hell.. I guess I could try to debate the rest with ya. And yes, I do think you are close minded and set in your ways. I don't think I could change your mind with a gun to your head. |
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#42 | ||||||
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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![]() Originally posted by Mr 5 0
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I'll tell you just how bad it is Jim.. Many folks are out of work and out of unemployment benefits. The home market is hopping right now. One reason is because the mortgage rate is low, that is why its low.. to stimulate homeownership. Many folks have lost thier home and that contributes to the home sales frenzy as well. Personally, my retirement has gone to hell. It happened just last November. My benefits suffered as well. Know why? Because the economy is so bad. You can't deny it Jim, Bush doesn't. Do I need to post a link? I was looking at retiring at the age of 52 and now I have to work until the age of 62.. That's 43 yrs to get my retirement Jim. I'd have worked for UPS from the age of 19 to the age of 62. What the hell am I going to do at the age of 62 Jim? Go surfing? Quote:
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While being open to new thought.. It really pisses me off to be called a communist. |
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#43 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 360
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![]() Who called you a communist? Socialist maybe. Most of Europe is socialist. I can't see that it has done much for them.
I am still wondering what you are going to do with all this extra tax money from the rich. Are you going to pay less personally? Give it to someone who makes less than you? Let the government doll it out to whoever has a good story about how burdened they are having to pay all those bills especially since they put so much down the slot machine last night. It sure sounds like you are unhappy with what you are paying and want someone else to pay it for you. Its not fair that those rich sobs can affort a better car when we are all struggling to make notes on a V6 Mustang. I think the people that know how to make money know a lot more about how to spend it wisely than the goverment does. Ever work with a nonprofit group to raise money? Guess who not only pays the most taxes but also gives the most to chariety. Maybe we ought to close that loophole too. It makes a great campaign speech to sock to those rich B*st*rds but until someone has a better idea of what to do with the money other than to redistribute unearned wealth. I am for letting the ones that know how to make it spend it on earning more and if they get a better car than me, a better house, better doctors, etc. out of the deal they earned it.
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2003 3.8 Mineral Gray, MAC CAI, K&N, Chin Spoiler |
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#44 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 360
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![]() The town I live in had two or three very very wealty families. They made their money in oil, timber, etc. and were definitely not taxed as they would have been today. They built a couple of large churches, an art museum full of the some of the worlds best art, a first class theater for the performing arts, one of their placial homes is now part of the local university and serves the public in many ways like wedding receptions, etc (my kid worked there). They built two country clubs with golf courses that are open for memebership today. They created a park in the middle of the city that is about one hundred acres and a county airport. They left a foundation that is still very well off that funds a number of beneficial functions. All of this employs workers and brings visitors to the area.
Lets tax the hell out of these type folks... It just ain't fair not to mention the devistated self esteem of all those folks who have to look at this and feel inadequate because they can't do it too. Yeah we ought to break this up and dole out the money to those who really deserve it. Those rich sobs were only paying 39% when it should have been at least 80%. I am sure the government would have done all this for the community had they collected more taxes.
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2003 3.8 Mineral Gray, MAC CAI, K&N, Chin Spoiler |
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#45 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 360
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![]() Oh yeah and I forgot they opened a savings and loan and funded many peoples mortgages, including mine. Sure they made money off of it but again employed many people at the bank over the years.
Money is like energy. It can really do things when it is concentrated. The question is where should it be concentrated. In the government or in the hands of individuals. I vote for individuals for the most part. If all us working folks want to get together and fund our own retirements and medical coverage with some left over for defense and roads that fine. But look what happens to us when the government collects that money and manages it for us. Social Security is a good example. Nearly bankrupt. We would have been better off letting some rich banker manage the money and make some for himself while he was at it like everybody does with 401 K and IRA money or would you have the goverment manage that too. I will get around to Bush and Iraq when I get back from a trip I am going on. Hope by then you will have decided what to do with all the extra tax money you want to collect from those rich sobs only payng 39%.
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2003 3.8 Mineral Gray, MAC CAI, K&N, Chin Spoiler |
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#46 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 360
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![]() Quote:
We got a lot more to talk about. Like the perception that foreign labor is just cheap and that is why it is taking our jobs. In my mind it is tied in to the other post on gay marriage. If you aren't bored with this conversation, I will tell you why I think that.
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2003 3.8 Mineral Gray, MAC CAI, K&N, Chin Spoiler |
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#47 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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![]() First, I associate socialism with communism and if I misunderstood you and Jim, I need to apologize.. I apologize.
Second, I think you didn't get my point on the tax issue. After looking at both sides I've come to the conclusion that folks making over $166,500 are paying too much tax. One problem is that the president says the tax breaks are giving the poor and working class some much needed break, while the Democrats point out that the rich are benefitting the most. They are and they are paying too much of a percentage. Just don't say its in place to help the poor. If you don't want someone to call you on it. The poor are only saying 0.9% but they don't pay much(if any) taxes to start with so how are they going to save. The problem is.. its kind of hard to raise a family on $25k a yr. I also agree with you on the welfare issue. Some folks get it that don't need it. The main reason I usually don't get into discussions about religion and polotics is because it seems to explode and folks get upset and no one comes away with anything.. usually. I still consider Jim a friend and probably always will. That being said, I think its time for me to take a break from the internet. |
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#48 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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My self esteem is intact, thank you. My feelings aren't hurt either. Are you trying to antagonize me? |
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#49 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 360
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![]() Quote:
I think we are reaching some common gound. Yes it is damn hard to raise a family on $25K but more subsidy, more wealth transfer, via the tax code is not the answer. Our only way out is education, real education. Not gay day and cultral studies or books like King and King or it takes a village to raise a child. Science and math and business education along with a dose of political science or what used to be called civics. Our jobs are going out of this country not just because the labor is cheap but cheap and SMART. The cheap part will work itself out ovre time as the standard of living improves around the word. The smart part is up to us. And as long as we let the education system be used as a tool for driving political correctness and reaching the lowest common denominator we are doomed. Vouchers are a great idea. Let people choose where they can get relevant education. (maybe they could teach me to spell). To me this is how the gay marriage issue ties in and a multitude of other immorale themes. They are not productive and are not things the competition is focusing on. Put them on the back burner and lets get on with staying competitive from a strong fundamental educational base. And we have not even touched on morales and how this keeps the rich in line and causing them to want to do good things as opposed to rip us off because they are smarter than we are. But this is a Mustang site after all and maybe we ought to stick to that.
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2003 3.8 Mineral Gray, MAC CAI, K&N, Chin Spoiler |
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#50 | ||||||||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
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![]() Originally posted by RBatson :
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5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
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#51 | |||||||||||||
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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Mortgage rates have already started to climb. I just explained why homes are selling. Quote:
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"These are the basic ideas that guide my tax policy: lower income taxes for all, with the greatest help for those most in need. Everyone who pays income taxes benefits — while the highest percentage tax cuts go to the lowest income Americans. I believe this is a formula for continuing the prosperity we've enjoyed, but also expanding it in ways we have yet to discover. It is an economics of inclusion. It is the agenda of a government that knows its limits and shows its heart." Now, who benefits from the tax cuts the most? I'm wondering if you work for the president, I know you are a supporter. You seem to be so much a supporter that you'll even contradict him, to support him. You speak with a forked tongue, white man. Heeh. ![]() |
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#52 | |||||||||||||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
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![]() Originally posted by RBatson :
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Bankruptcies are rising, partly due to high credit card debt among other things but if - as you claim - new jobs are mostly low-end, how is it that the median income in America keeps rising every year? That should really give you a headache! Fact is that most jobs pay well and the 'low paying new jobs' myth is a creation of Democrat politicians trying 'talk the economy down' in 2004, as they did in 1992. "The worst economy in 50 years"...according to Bill Clinton. It wasn't even close, then or now and politicians trying to make it appear so seem to have a willing audience in folks like you who think that because they have financial setbacks the whole country is going broke. Nonsense. The numbers prove that a lie. Quote:
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You're worth responding too Rick and I try to remain civil when I do but as I frustrate you, the feeling is sometimes mutual. Still, you're posts are a good paltform for me to correct some myths and explain a few facts. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do so but I won't keep this exchange going very much longer as I have little time to spend here and this just eats it up. Carry on. ![]()
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5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
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#53 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Staging lane
Posts: 4,337
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![]() Mr 5.0- I am overjoyed to see that someone in California of all places shares my political views.
I also disagree with Bush's immigration policies. I wish I could put my thoughts into words as convincingly and as sharply as you do. Run for office, I'll vote for you ![]()
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92' LX-Big brakes, Lots and lots of suspension, GT40X heads, Ported cobra intake, stock cam, Vortech SC trim. 00' Lightning-Stock 88'CRX-13 second ego killer |
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#54 |
Get down.....
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Room 103
Posts: 2,095
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![]() Mr 5 0, your spewing off figures and some stuff you call facts. All I want is some resources on where you get your figures and facts from. State them cause for all I know you can be making all this up.
James ![]()
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Cobra brakes are on! Finally..... ------------------------------------------------ |
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#55 |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
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![]() (April 27, 2004) -- Existing single-family home sales rose strongly in March to the second-highest level on record, according to the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS®.
Existing-home sales increased 5.7 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate* of 6.48 million units in March from an upwardly revised pace of 6.13 million units in February. Last month's sales activity was 12.7 percent above the 5.75 million unit level in March 2003; the record is 6.68 million in September 2003. David Lereah, NAR's chief economist, said low interest rates get most of the credit for last month's performance, but he noted interest rates are now rising modestly. "The housing needs of a growing population timed nicely with historically low mortgage interest rates and a rebounding economy in March," Lereah says. "Although interest rates are rising modestly, an improving job market is creating a favorable backdrop for home sales, but at a somewhat slower pace in the months ahead." According to Freddie Mac, the national average commitment rate for a 30-year, conventional, fixed-rate mortgage was 5.45 percent in March, the second lowest on record, down from 5.64 percent in February. It was 5.75 percent in March 2003; the record low is 5.23 percent set in June 2003. The national median existing-home price was $174,100 in March, up 7.4 percent from March 2003 when the median price was $162,100. The median is a typical market price where half of the homes sell for more and half sell for less. Source: www.realtor.org *********************************************** Household Income MOST RECENT STATISTIC: $42,409 PERIOD COVERED: 2002 Date Released: Sept. 2003 Next Release: Sept. 2004 2002 2001 2000 1999 Median 42,409 $42,228 $41,990 $40,696 1998 $38,855. 1-Yr. Change, nominal 0.4% 0.6% 3.2% 4.7% 5.0% 1-Yr. Change, real (1.1%) (2.2%) (0.2%) 2.5% 3.6% Source: U.S. Census Bureau
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5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
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#56 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1997
Posts: 3,028
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![]() Jim, do you realize your real estate source is supporting my argument? Homes sales are up because of the interest rates. The national median price of a home is up because those with jobs can afford more home than they could when the rates were high. I can't see what is so difficult to understand about that. I'll give you an example.. A $100k home loan at 8.5% is $768.91 a month, at 5.5% the same loan is $567.79 a month. So if you could afford $768.91 then the $100k you could afford at 8.5% now becomes a loan in the amount of $135,421.78 that you could afford at 5.5%. Alot of people have sold thier old homes and bought a nicer one, get it? That is the reason the national median home price is up.
Quote Jim- "This year, inflation may creep up and increase the mortagage interest rates a bit but to claim that the rates are low because no one can afford a home and then see home sales climbing beyond any previous numbers is to ignore reality, something you are free to do on your own, but don't try to sell it here." I never said people who couldn't afford homes were buying homes, that doesn't make sense, none. What I said was.. People with jobs are buying houses they weren't able to afford, previously.. because of the rates. The economy is slowly recovering, something else I already stated. Rates will follow, said that too. I don't know where you get that I personally am starving or anything of that nature. I never said I was losing money on my 'investment' rental house, its actually doing quite well.. in rent and value (as is the house I live in). I don't know where you got that from. ![]() Now, I am done with this because I can't see that this is going anywhere.. I did pick up something on the tax discussion, thanks. I think this just goes to prove that 2 people can be given the same facts and interpret them 2 completely different ways.. and that I'm right and you are wrong ![]() Check out this link- http://www.suntimes.com/output/busin...in-rate28.html Be sure to read the very last Q&A. Looks like I'm right again... BTW, I figured you would like this post and that, along with trying to wake this place up, is why I started it. Quote Jim- "I won't keep this exchange going very much longer as I have little time to spend here and this just eats it up." Who are you kidding?? ![]() ![]() |
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#57 | |||||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
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![]() Originally posted by RBatson :
I'll cut to the chase here. Homes sales are booming which indicates a robust economy, not a weak one, as you've inferred. There is a ton of ignorance and misinformation regarding economics out there and while I'm no economist (neither are you) I fail to see the validity of some of your arguments. Quote:
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As for spending time here: I can't. This thread did get my interest but I usually post other places and prefer those sites as the audience is much larger, if nothing else. I'll bite on a juicy topic but not always and not that often. I haven't posted this much here in many months. Thanks for the opportunity to kick it around but remember, Rick: on the internet, everyone is a genius and everyone is always right about everything. ![]()
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5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
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#58 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 5,246
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![]() While avoiding the need to finish my review of the Prescott core Pentium 4 vs Northwood C core Pentium 4, I shall address this.
As of March 2004, the Business Consumer Confidence Level is the highest it's been since March of 1989. Individual consumer confidence rose sharply this month citing strong job market conditions and a positive outlook over the next 6 months. Consumer Confidence Index In regards to home sales, it's quite simple. People buy what they can afford. With interest rates being so low, they are able to get into a house with a price tag much higher than they would have. At the same time, the housing market has seen huge increases in the final sale prices of homes in the recent couple of years. The bottom line is that people are spending just as much as they would have, but more of them are buying homes. While I share concerns over the economy in general, more specifically in the moving of good jobs moving overseas or out of the country. Putting the blame on the Bush administration is hardly fair or logical in regards to such accusations. The Clinton Administration left this time bomb sitting in the oval office for the next president. The too often noted concept that the United States is so wealthy that we can directly enhance the 3rd world status of all poor nations is ludicrious. The United States has a population of about 300 million vs the Earth's population of 6 billion. Nearly 2.5 billion of that living in India and China, which are not exactly the wealthiest nations. It's like trying to cool a gallon of boiling water with a pint of 40* water. In regards to taxes, the "rich" pay far more in taxes than the average citizen. Related NCPA Report Ever notice that your net pay increases little with your salary increases because it moves you up into another tax bracket? Maybe you notice that you only get about 1/2 of your annual bonus or profit sharing net of taxes? The "rich" pay that tax under normal circumstances. While there are definitely instances of blatent abuse of tax codes by some businesses and wealthy individuals, there are just as many by low and middle income workers who file "zero" tax returns IMHO. While the proposed tax cuts do favor "wealthy" individuals, the lower income bracket citizens also see a decrease in taxes. There is most definitely a huge problem with the current pay structure in corporate America. Higher level executives are seeing pay levels that are completely unwarranted, and irresponsible. Steve Jobs is probably the most blatent abuser of corporate pay I've seen in recent years. The average major corporation's CEO makes 500x the base wage in the company. Japan is the next country in line for CEO pay based on the base worker's wage. It's 12x more. See a problem there? I do. That being said, I'm not entirely sure how to fix the problem in a free market, capitalist economy. Maybe if more American's actually paid attention to their investments and economic issues, this wouldn't have happened, but instead, they'd rather blather on about rehashed, inaccurate, politically motivated articles released by our obviously biased media corporations. |
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