simple solution to hijacking problem - Page 3

Mach 1 · 09-14-2001, 11:47 AM

Whats the matter with you touchy Canuks? Going through hockey withdrawl?

I didnt take a stab at your military? I simply made a comment about what I recently witnessed, to put in perspective what our high altitude bombers were capable of, which everybody already knows anyway from watching T.V. during the Gulf War.

And dont even start about you winning competitions. Maybe we havent won any Maple Flag exercises? Or maybe you havent? I really dont know what you are refering to, and dont care to get into a stupid debate over this anyway.

Our record speaks for itself.

Its not my fault your guys couldnt hit the target, as your own soldiers admitted to me as we watched the training exercise together.

Im not trying to flame anybody, including Canadas military. I know you guys participate and contribute to many of our military missions.

Peace.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

moponys · 09-14-2001, 12:38 PM

check this out...freaky stuff
http://www.pierfishing.com/msgboard/...&mode=all&row=

------------------
TFS twisted wedge heads, TFS street intake, Lunati cam .500/.510 218/226, BBK FPR, BBK shorties, BBK 70mm tb, Pro-m 75mm, ASP pulleys, FMS 3:73, Transgo shiftkit,Flowmasters, Bassani x-pipe, K&N FIPK, FMS 1.6 roller rockers, 9mm wires,24lbs injectors,
190lph fuel pump, MSD cap and rotor, 18" wheels w/street tires, JMS custom chip, Trickflow phenolic spacer. ETs soon to come...

2FastLX · 09-14-2001, 01:01 PM

I was thinking the same thing the other day about an impenetrable door to the cabin. But what I was thinking is that even the pilots couldn't open it. The only way the door could be opened was in the case of an emergency and could only be done via satellite from the ground. That would eliminate 2 things: The ability of the HiJacker to get to the cabin, and the abilty of the HiJacker to leave it up to the pilots who lives or dies on a plane. I think something along these lines needs to be on every commercial aircraft. Also, 2 very heavily armed guards standing at the front of the plane would do wonders especially if it were made clear to the passengers that these guards were to shoot anyone attempting to move from their seat for the first hour of the flight anyway.

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

USMC302 · 09-14-2001, 03:44 PM

(Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'. We worry more about homosexuals being comfortable in the armed forces than about building strength, loyalty and encouraging a sense of duty and honor into our young men serving the country as soliders and sailors. Now, it's just a job. I expect we'll have a soldiers union any day now. Collective bargining.
Sure, there are still real stand-up guys in the service, but they don't stay long and the officers are so afraid of their careers being stalled - or worse - they swallow all the PC B.S. and watch the services dwindle down in manpower and resolve, not to mention quality. If we ever have to fight a real war, not some fly-over war or a war where the enemy are so demoralized they surrender to TV crews as in Desert Storm, I'm worried. I hope I'm wrong.)

LET ME SAY ON BEHALF OF THE MARINE CORPS, YOU ARE SO WRONG. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITMENT ARE. DO YOU NEED A HISTORY LESSON OF THE MARINE CORPS? I WILL NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DEBATE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS WHOLE SUBJECT EXCEPT TO SAY SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE MILITARY AND IT'S FINE SERVICE MEMBERS.

------------------
88LX NOTCH, 88GT, 95 GT.

stoagman · 09-14-2001, 05:34 PM

Why not arm the pilot and co-pilot? Most commercial pilots are prior service and are perfectly capable of handling a fire-arm. While we're at it, we can issue stun-guns and mace to the flight attendants to help subdued poorly armed hijackers or extremely unruly passengers. These seem like logical and simple solutions to the problem.
It isn't fair to suggest that the passengers or flight crews could have or should have done more to prevent this tragedy. Prior to Tuesday, how many times had hijackers used commercial aircraft as missles? Never. The smartest thing a hostage could do was cooperate. Normally the worst that happens is they end up at a different destination.
This was truly unprecedented.We can all second guess after the fact but these poor souls, as the rest of the world, never could have dreamed this sort of fate. The game has definately been changed.
It is now time to stand together, support our leaders in Washington and erraticate this scurge from the face of the earth. There is no way to coexist with villians of this magnitude. It is either us or them and I choose us. Benjamin Netenyahu said it best, "They (meaning the terrorists) have the will but not the might, the U.S. has the might but not the will". Do we finally have the will?

Unit 5302 · 09-14-2001, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by USMC302:
LET ME SAY ON BEHALF OF THE MARINE CORPS, YOU ARE SO WRONG. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITMENT ARE. DO YOU NEED A HISTORY LESSON OF THE MARINE CORPS? I WILL NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DEBATE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS WHOLE SUBJECT EXCEPT TO SAY SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE MILITARY AND IT'S FINE SERVICE MEMBERS.

Well, for one thing you have completely and utterly missed the point. The point was not to show lack of respect for the military. It was to show mistreatment of the military. As far as the Marines go, I was shocked and sickened at the score I could get on the ASVAB and get in. The projected test was so fricken easy it was crazy. The recruiter was totally shocked when I completed it 15min faster than he'd ever seen. He figured I was dumb as a rock and that I got them all wrong or left them blank. He said, are you sure you're done? You can go back and check the answers if you like. I got one wrong that I accidentally bubbled in wrong, I corrected it as he went down the list and told him why.

He told me what I needed to get it. Now the score is a 31. I was projected at 93 because of my 1 error, which I corrected. An F'in 31??? Please, don't tell me the military is a little hurtin for quality people. BTW They non stop recruited me for 2 more years.

As far as physical assesment tests, I can't say for sure because I don't know, but I would be willing to wager they're easier than they should be.

Unit 5302 · 09-14-2001, 07:58 PM

Why not put a sealed door on the cabin, and carry Nitrous Oxide on board that can be pumped into the ventilation system or some other form of knock out gas? It would keep everybody out of it, including the terrorists until the pilots could land the plane.

Of course you could argue, maybe the terrorists would carry gas masks in their carry on luggage and access it. So as soon as the plane gets ready to taxi have the compartments lock electronically. Have better imaging systems at the xray machines as well.

In addition, a couple police on board, and tasers for the flight attendants located in password protected boxes should make it hard as hell.

How much additional cost there? A lot for the gas, obviously. A few thousand for a sealed cabin. For the electronic locks? A few thousand per aircraft. The Tasers are cheap. Having 2 armed officers on board? Maybe $300 per flight? Wow, an two or three dollars per ticket on large passenger aircraft. The smaller aircraft are much less wanted targets. They have short ranges, few hostages in comparison, and they can do much less damage.

Mach 1 · 09-14-2001, 11:38 PM

I dont think a sealed cabin and some kind of knock out gas is a real good solution. Too risky. One little sealed flight deck leak and knock out gas(is there even such a gas to knock people out temporarily?) taking out the pilot would be a great risk.

Air planes fly through the air at tremondous speeds and altitudes, with a lot of stress on the airframe. This causes flexing. Like your uni-body mustang if you will. Aircraft are of a "uni-body" design style. They have to save weight for obvious reasons, and I would bet this is where the automobile industry got the idea for uni-body style framework on cars. Just like aircraft have had anti-lock brake technology that the cars are using now for a long time already.

Anyway, it would be hard to seal off the flight cabin so tightly to elimante the risk of gassing yourself.

I think the best idea I have heard is arming the flightcrews with guns or stun guns. This isnt the definitive answer eithier, but certainly a start. I guess then everybody would say the risk of an armed crew member goping whack-o and taking some people, or the fact of the high-jacker could obtain the weapon and use it againt them.

How about a stun gun with a code needed to arm it?

2FastLX · 09-15-2001, 07:41 AM

Do you really think you're not going to tell the terrorist the code if he has a knife halfway embedded into your throat or the throat of a small child?

"GIMME THE COD OR DIE!!!"

"Uh, no. I'd rather die than let you shock me"

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

Mach 1 · 09-15-2001, 10:07 AM

Thats the point. He doesnt know the code, the crew does. Somebody on the crew zaps his butt while he has no defense.

If he slices somebodys throat before we get to him, tough crap. One dead is better than this tragedy.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

RAGE_5.0 · 09-15-2001, 10:35 AM

see mach 1 the thing is that if the 1 person died there would still be poeple saying that they could hae brought the plane down safely and the swat team could have went in a nd got them

i hate that kind of person they don't think rationly......

JAMES

------------------
Black 1990 gt cobra bonestock
not for long

Unit 5302 · 09-15-2001, 01:21 PM

Respirators in the cockpit. Gas problem solved. Gas "Nitrous Oxide" It'll take a coule minutes to really take hold but it's odorless and colorless. They wouldn't know what was going on until they could no longer stand up.

That would obviously be a last ditch effort, after the stun guns/tasers were used. Some throw a stream of voltage like 15 feet. If the terrorist was holding a knife to a hostage, zap the **** out of both of them. Neither should experiance permanent injury.

In my example the terrorists would.
[LIST][*]Have to get concealed weapons on board.[*]Have the weapons stored on themselves because they can't access luggage.[*]Defeat 2 armed Police Officers[*]Defeat flight attendants armed with tasers.[*]Break through the sealed off cockpit door.[*]Do it all before the gas takes effect.

Now obviously, this is kinda like stealing a car. If they are good enough, and they want your car bad enough, and they plan well enough, you really can't stop them. You can; however, deter them, and make it much much harder.

rwhite65 · 09-15-2001, 04:12 PM

I think everyone has good ideas, I just wanted to point out some things.

Armed Officers, pretty good, i still think they should be plained clothed. Where are they on the plain, no one really knows (passenger wise)

Has anybody ever been trained with weapons of any kind? One of the most important rules to remember with any weapon, is that when you bring the weapon to the fight, you take the chance of losing it to the opponet, now they have a weapon that they would not have had.

I say this cause I am not sure your average flight attendant would want this responsibility nor be capable of handling some of these weapons. But everyone is definately on to something here.

I still say that the unbreakable door is the key. The too heavy argument just does not fly with me. You can make up for the weight in losing some of the planes capacity. For every passenger you lose, there went some luggage too.

Somebody made the comment about losing one hostage...and everybody saying that you could have maybe saved them. Maybe we could have, but did we save 199 lives in the process? When the plane gets on the ground, Swat teams have a chance of losing a hostage or two....or maybe more.

i think that the gas idea is pretty innovative, if it could be done. Having resperators in the cockpit would help be insurance that the pilots did not get gassed also.

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09-14-2001, 11:47 AM	#41
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	Whats the matter with you touchy Canuks? Going through hockey withdrawl? I didnt take a stab at your military? I simply made a comment about what I recently witnessed, to put in perspective what our high altitude bombers were capable of, which everybody already knows anyway from watching T.V. during the Gulf War. And dont even start about you winning competitions. Maybe we havent won any Maple Flag exercises? Or maybe you havent? I really dont know what you are refering to, and dont care to get into a stupid debate over this anyway. Our record speaks for itself. Its not my fault your guys couldnt hit the target, as your own soldiers admitted to me as we watched the training exercise together. Im not trying to flame anybody, including Canadas military. I know you guys participate and contribute to many of our military missions. Peace. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

09-14-2001, 12:38 PM	#42
moponys Registered Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Antioch, CA 94521 Posts: 181	check this out...freaky stuff http://www.pierfishing.com/msgboard/...&mode=all&row= ------------------ TFS twisted wedge heads, TFS street intake, Lunati cam .500/.510 218/226, BBK FPR, BBK shorties, BBK 70mm tb, Pro-m 75mm, ASP pulleys, FMS 3:73, Transgo shiftkit,Flowmasters, Bassani x-pipe, K&N FIPK, FMS 1.6 roller rockers, 9mm wires,24lbs injectors, 190lph fuel pump, MSD cap and rotor, 18" wheels w/street tires, JMS custom chip, Trickflow phenolic spacer. ETs soon to come...

09-14-2001, 01:01 PM	#43
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	I was thinking the same thing the other day about an impenetrable door to the cabin. But what I was thinking is that even the pilots couldn't open it. The only way the door could be opened was in the case of an emergency and could only be done via satellite from the ground. That would eliminate 2 things: The ability of the HiJacker to get to the cabin, and the abilty of the HiJacker to leave it up to the pilots who lives or dies on a plane. I think something along these lines needs to be on every commercial aircraft. Also, 2 very heavily armed guards standing at the front of the plane would do wonders especially if it were made clear to the passengers that these guards were to shoot anyone attempting to move from their seat for the first hour of the flight anyway. ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

09-14-2001, 03:44 PM	#44
USMC302 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Gallatin, Tn Posts: 1,326	(Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'. We worry more about homosexuals being comfortable in the armed forces than about building strength, loyalty and encouraging a sense of duty and honor into our young men serving the country as soliders and sailors. Now, it's just a job. I expect we'll have a soldiers union any day now. Collective bargining. Sure, there are still real stand-up guys in the service, but they don't stay long and the officers are so afraid of their careers being stalled - or worse - they swallow all the PC B.S. and watch the services dwindle down in manpower and resolve, not to mention quality. If we ever have to fight a real war, not some fly-over war or a war where the enemy are so demoralized they surrender to TV crews as in Desert Storm, I'm worried. I hope I'm wrong.) LET ME SAY ON BEHALF OF THE MARINE CORPS, YOU ARE SO WRONG. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITMENT ARE. DO YOU NEED A HISTORY LESSON OF THE MARINE CORPS? I WILL NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DEBATE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS WHOLE SUBJECT EXCEPT TO SAY SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE MILITARY AND IT'S FINE SERVICE MEMBERS. ------------------ 88LX NOTCH, 88GT, 95 GT.

09-14-2001, 05:34 PM	#45
stoagman Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1	Why not arm the pilot and co-pilot? Most commercial pilots are prior service and are perfectly capable of handling a fire-arm. While we're at it, we can issue stun-guns and mace to the flight attendants to help subdued poorly armed hijackers or extremely unruly passengers. These seem like logical and simple solutions to the problem. It isn't fair to suggest that the passengers or flight crews could have or should have done more to prevent this tragedy. Prior to Tuesday, how many times had hijackers used commercial aircraft as missles? Never. The smartest thing a hostage could do was cooperate. Normally the worst that happens is they end up at a different destination. This was truly unprecedented.We can all second guess after the fact but these poor souls, as the rest of the world, never could have dreamed this sort of fate. The game has definately been changed. It is now time to stand together, support our leaders in Washington and erraticate this scurge from the face of the earth. There is no way to coexist with villians of this magnitude. It is either us or them and I choose us. Benjamin Netenyahu said it best, "They (meaning the terrorists) have the will but not the might, the U.S. has the might but not the will". Do we finally have the will?

09-14-2001, 07:58 PM	#47
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Why not put a sealed door on the cabin, and carry Nitrous Oxide on board that can be pumped into the ventilation system or some other form of knock out gas? It would keep everybody out of it, including the terrorists until the pilots could land the plane. Of course you could argue, maybe the terrorists would carry gas masks in their carry on luggage and access it. So as soon as the plane gets ready to taxi have the compartments lock electronically. Have better imaging systems at the xray machines as well. In addition, a couple police on board, and tasers for the flight attendants located in password protected boxes should make it hard as hell. How much additional cost there? A lot for the gas, obviously. A few thousand for a sealed cabin. For the electronic locks? A few thousand per aircraft. The Tasers are cheap. Having 2 armed officers on board? Maybe $300 per flight? Wow, an two or three dollars per ticket on large passenger aircraft. The smaller aircraft are much less wanted targets. They have short ranges, few hostages in comparison, and they can do much less damage.

09-14-2001, 11:38 PM	#48
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	I dont think a sealed cabin and some kind of knock out gas is a real good solution. Too risky. One little sealed flight deck leak and knock out gas(is there even such a gas to knock people out temporarily?) taking out the pilot would be a great risk. Air planes fly through the air at tremondous speeds and altitudes, with a lot of stress on the airframe. This causes flexing. Like your uni-body mustang if you will. Aircraft are of a "uni-body" design style. They have to save weight for obvious reasons, and I would bet this is where the automobile industry got the idea for uni-body style framework on cars. Just like aircraft have had anti-lock brake technology that the cars are using now for a long time already. Anyway, it would be hard to seal off the flight cabin so tightly to elimante the risk of gassing yourself. I think the best idea I have heard is arming the flightcrews with guns or stun guns. This isnt the definitive answer eithier, but certainly a start. I guess then everybody would say the risk of an armed crew member goping whack-o and taking some people, or the fact of the high-jacker could obtain the weapon and use it againt them. How about a stun gun with a code needed to arm it?

09-15-2001, 07:41 AM	#49
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	Do you really think you're not going to tell the terrorist the code if he has a knife halfway embedded into your throat or the throat of a small child? "GIMME THE COD OR DIE!!!" "Uh, no. I'd rather die than let you shock me" ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

09-15-2001, 10:07 AM	#50
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	Thats the point. He doesnt know the code, the crew does. Somebody on the crew zaps his butt while he has no defense. If he slices somebodys throat before we get to him, tough crap. One dead is better than this tragedy. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

09-15-2001, 10:35 AM	#51
RAGE_5.0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Leamington, Ontario, Canada Posts: 767	see mach 1 the thing is that if the 1 person died there would still be poeple saying that they could hae brought the plane down safely and the swat team could have went in a nd got them i hate that kind of person they don't think rationly...... JAMES ------------------ Black 1990 gt cobra bonestock not for long

09-15-2001, 01:21 PM	#52
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Respirators in the cockpit. Gas problem solved. Gas "Nitrous Oxide" It'll take a coule minutes to really take hold but it's odorless and colorless. They wouldn't know what was going on until they could no longer stand up. That would obviously be a last ditch effort, after the stun guns/tasers were used. Some throw a stream of voltage like 15 feet. If the terrorist was holding a knife to a hostage, zap the **** out of both of them. Neither should experiance permanent injury. In my example the terrorists would. [LIST][]Have to get concealed weapons on board.[]Have the weapons stored on themselves because they can't access luggage.[]Defeat 2 armed Police Officers[]Defeat flight attendants armed with tasers.[]Break through the sealed off cockpit door.[]Do it all before the gas takes effect. Now obviously, this is kinda like stealing a car. If they are good enough, and they want your car bad enough, and they plan well enough, you really can't stop them. You can; however, deter them, and make it much much harder.

09-15-2001, 04:12 PM	#53
rwhite65 Ride Hard Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wyoming IL Posts: 1,094	I think everyone has good ideas, I just wanted to point out some things. Armed Officers, pretty good, i still think they should be plained clothed. Where are they on the plain, no one really knows (passenger wise) Has anybody ever been trained with weapons of any kind? One of the most important rules to remember with any weapon, is that when you bring the weapon to the fight, you take the chance of losing it to the opponet, now they have a weapon that they would not have had. I say this cause I am not sure your average flight attendant would want this responsibility nor be capable of handling some of these weapons. But everyone is definately on to something here. I still say that the unbreakable door is the key. The too heavy argument just does not fly with me. You can make up for the weight in losing some of the planes capacity. For every passenger you lose, there went some luggage too. Somebody made the comment about losing one hostage...and everybody saying that you could have maybe saved them. Maybe we could have, but did we save 199 lives in the process? When the plane gets on the ground, Swat teams have a chance of losing a hostage or two....or maybe more. i think that the gas idea is pretty innovative, if it could be done. Having resperators in the cockpit would help be insurance that the pilots did not get gassed also.