Bush an Oil Tycoon, or a President?

[oldman]

"The oil industry has eliminated most of this by merging, so it allows them to price fix for a higher profit. (See record profits while most other industries are getting setbacks due to a slowing economy)"

This shows some confusion about the facts. Unlike the big ATT monopoly oil companies don't merge to fix prices. THey do it as a matter of survival. Too many opportunistic people are forever looking to make a quick strike in the stock market by making runs at small businesses and oil companies are no exception. Big oil is looking for smaller oil companies to take over. It's a cheap and esy way to obtain reserves, refining capacity and lower debt ratios. Phillips petroleum is in the process of buying Tosco in a wholesale buyout and it should benefit both companies. Phillips has already replaced 600 percent of it's oil production in 2000 alone. This means they don't have to rely on foreign oil for their bread and butter. Buying Tosco gives them one thing. . .refineries! Tosco has no E&P (exploration and production)division and relies on the market to buy oil from anyone who can sell it to them. True, combining the two will produce the third largest oil company in the country but more importantly it will assure their survival. THe biggest single reason for the mergers is cash. Very soon the whole country will require low sulfur fuels and this costs bilions to make happen. If your small oil company doesn't have the capital to make the modifications to the refineries they will go under. It's better to have some deep pockets backing your efforts when the time comes so that hopefully you don't go under. In a few years the federal government is going to require lower cetanes in diesel fuel and the present technology required to do this would cost several hundred million dollars to implement in one refinery. Believe me it's something they are trying to plan for and have been for some time.

"15 years to build a refinery? Just wait and see what happens when the demand goes through the roof. If they can build the Mall of America here in MN in just a couple years, they can certainly pump out a refinery in like time if so desired."

Wrong Kimosabe!
Building a mall is no comparison to the engineering and permitting nightmare a refinery is. We are in the middle of a de-bottlenecking project where I work that will ultimately allow us to increase our throughput from 130,000 barrels per day to about 150,000 bpd. The design stage took three years and all it entails is one column and a reactor bed. (no not nuclear. . just a term for a catalyst bed operation)Building the thing has been ongoing for two years. This is about one fiftieth of our refinery. Remember, the towers and assorted vessels you see poking up through the skyline at a refinery have to come from Asia, (Korea, JApan etc) and they have to hire a boat to haul one of these towers to the good ole US and then make 65 miles a day to deliver it down the road. Add to this the year it takes to manufacture one.
There's a reason they don't build refineries any more and it's because by the time they do the ribbon cutting on one we'll be riding horses again. What you WILL see is the refineries we have now running with their foot to the floor and doing it as efficiently as possible. Did you know it takes 20 years to get the proper permits to build a gas fired furnace in this country? This is what Good ole George Dubya has been talking about recently.

Oh. . .and by the way. . .in case you didn't notice, the demand went through the roof about a year ago.

It's like I said, you either quit using so much of the stuff or you pay the price. I will make one prediction. . .you aren't likely to see prices go down very much in this decade.

[Mr 5 0]

97snakedriver:

Thanks for the comments...good points.

Re: Population. Don't forget immigration, mostly illegal - and even illegals drive cars. Our highways are choked because not only are there more of us but everyone owns two or more cars. It adds up to lot of demand for fuel, along with other reasons offered, such as urban sprawl.
Demand means higher prices. Always does when the source is finite and you can't simply 'make more'. Simple.

I don't believe there is all that much 'price-gouging' going on, although profit-taking is a given and no crime, if not manipulated by secret agreement.
The oil companies have been 'investigated' time and again (last year in fact, by a liberal Democrat administration) and never found to be doing much of anything illegal.
If they had, you would have known it by now - trust me.

I think the cry of "price-gouging" becomes a straw man for politicians and the media, who need a villan to attack and blame, every time the gas price goes up. Bush has a reasonable plan but the Democrats have to reject it; it's a knee-jerk reaction for them. Lots of non-political folks just want the price to come down - "NOW, dammit!" - and have no concern with how we got here and how to insure long-term stability for our energy supply and pricing. This feeds the cycle.

As for China (sub-issue): They are a third-world country run by thugs with guns who are dangerous and no friends of ours.
I don't care what the Chinese 'leaders' think about anything, as long as they realize that they have no chance of winning a conflict with the U.S. and that we now have a President that will not kiss Chinese butt to avoid a conflict of any kind, while they do as they please. Again; China is a captive, third-world country run by gangsters and is not a 'partner' with the U.S., just because we buy Chinese goods. That could end if they push it too far, and they would lose way more than us. We're fortunate to have a President that knows his friends and knows who to keep an eye on at all times.
China is rich in soldiers but poor in every other area, including weapons, and they know it as well as we do. Don't help these thugs who murder their own people to stay in power and threaten neighbors, and us. Buy American.

[oldman]

Nuff Said!

[Mustangbelle306]

Originally posted by oldman:
Look what happened when the EPA got into regulating the auto industry

har har...the Mustang II


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Elisha~5.0 HO Racing (ahem HIGH OUTPUT!)
1994 GT: Under top secret construction
Email: mustangbelle_306@yahoo.com
AOL name: GT306Chick

[Mustangbelle306]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0:
Buy American.

Amen!



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Elisha~5.0 HO Racing (ahem HIGH OUTPUT!)
1994 GT: Under top secret construction
Email: mustangbelle_306@yahoo.com
AOL name: GT306Chick

[jimberg]

Can you believe that lawmakers here in Minnesota are considering allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses?

[Power]

Did you know that you can take the drivers test in languages other than english? Funny, no road signs are ever in anything other than english however.

[95mustanggt]

Originally posted by 97snakedriver:
Actually that's bearly true. The US population growth is bearly above the rate of self sustention, and that will drop sharply as the last generation of baby boomers + 1 go beyond child rearing age, combined with a steady economic boom combined with the growth of the suburban spraw, which is in itself a product of the lessingly of the average house hold size, ie more single parents..

That maybe true in Canada and the US, but think about all the 3rd world countries out there are are starting to drive and enter into some industrial production. They all want and need fuel. And that number is MUCH larger than the growth in supply in the world (or people in North America for that matter )

[jimberg]

Power, I had no problems driving in Quebec where all the road signs are in French.

[Dark_5.0]

I did not here anyone complaining last year when the price of Gas was next to nothing. Noone stops to think of all the thousands of people that lose there jobs when the price of gas drops. The oil industry is up and down always has been and always will be. Just think about it if oil prices drop to thirty cents a gallon noone will bother drilling for oil in america a buttload of people would be unemployeed and then the middle East would have us by the balls. Us in the oilfield have had years of hard times its about time we can have security in our jobs. George Bush knows how the oilfield works. It was dumb @ss bill clinton that opened up the American reserves before he left office causing local prices to skyrocket. You dont get as successful as George Bush by being as stupid as the liberal media portrays him to be. Better him than Al gore wouldnt you love racing your 40 horsepower electric car.

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88 mustang gt convertible bored to 306 BBk equal length headers mac cold air fender kit cowl hood nitto drag radials ford racing clutch flow masters h-pipe 160* thermostat 16 degrees of timing electric fan off 94' t-bird jacobs electronics cap and wires

[Unit 5302]

Since I slipped and hit the clear fields on my giganto reply.

Oil companies are posting ALL TIME RECORD PROFIT's in what has been a slowing economy. This right after a huge merger in the industry.

It was found last fall that there was no reasonable explaination for fuel costs being so high. Our legislature also found no immediate need to intervene with a price gouging suit. Gas prices dropped almost immediately by $0.20 to $0.30 a gallon. They were right back to where they were a few weeks later.

There are 3 refinery's in the midwest that were shutdown unexpectedly along with a 4th that was producing bad gas. (Not Taco Bell)

CA blackouts have little to do with natural supply and demand. They have more to do with the power companies going under and not making their loans because they were forced into charging a certain amount by the Government.

Drilling for American reserves helps American oil companies. Are you really sure you want to argue that? It also allow us to control the price of our oil a little as well. I won't argue that.

Fuel is the cheapest for the US because we buy the most. It's like shopping at Wal Mart vs Snyders. I really hate that stupid comparision. Gas is cheapest in the US so we shouldn't complain. What an absolutely skewed comment. Would you like to compare our useage to another country? Maybe we should all be spazzing out because the US has crap for mass transit? Oh, wait, that's because most places in the US don't have similar population density's as the country's you are comparing us to. Say former West Germany, which is about the same size as MN and WI, but it's population was over 60 million. Comparing us to other countries is like comparing a Model T to an F360 Modena.

[crewzin]

I HAVE TO SAY THAT I ALSO WORK IN THE OIL INDUSTRY AND THERE ARE LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE PISSED ABOUT THE GAS PRICES AND DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT WHATS REALLY GOING ON! IT DOES'NT MATTER WHO IS IN OFFICE BECAUSE HE IS GETTING HIS STRINGS PULLED BY THE PEOPLE YOU DONT READ MUCH ABOUT. HE HAS SOME POWER BUT ITS REALLY HARD FOR A NEW PRES TO JUST WALK IN AND KICK DOWN THE DOORS. OIL RUNS THIS COUNTRY, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT REALLY HARD EVERY THING HAS SOME TIE-IN WITH OIL. IF THE OIL COMPANIES DONT MAKE PROFITS THEY LAY OFF WORKERS AND IT BEGINS A SNOBALL EFFECT THAT KEEPS GOING UNTIL THE COUNTRY REALIGNS ITSELF. DONT LET ANYONE FOOL YA INTO THINKING WE HAVE TO BUY OIL FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY CUS WE DONT! ITS CHEAPER UP FRONT BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD A PRODUCTION ORGANIZATION AND THE MONEY THAT IS NEEDED TO KEEP IT GOING. SOME DONT REALIZE THAT CONSTANTLY PEOPLE ARE USING NEW TECHNOLOGY TO FIND OIL. THEY KNOW WHERE IT IS, THEY JUST DONT WANT TO TAP INTO IT UNTIL THE PRICE IS UP SO THEY CAN MAKE A PREMIUM PRICE. JUST LOOK AROUND AT THE DRILLING RIGS EVERWHERE. COMPANIES ARE ON LISTS WAITING TO DRILL BECAUSE ONCE THE FIX WAS ON THE PRICES, THEY WERE READY TO MAKE A BUNDLE. HOW BETTER TO SLOW DOWN THE ECONOMY THAN HIT PEOPLE IN A WAY THEY CANT CONTROL. ALSO THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH STORAGE FOR OIL. IF THE DEMAND GOES UP THEY DONT ALWAYS PULL FROM THESE STORAGE FACILITIES, THEY JUST BRING IN OIL FROM THE PRODUCERS. ITS A GAME THEY ARE GETTING CLOSE TO PERFECTING. WHEN THEY DO LOOK OUT! FINDING YOURSELF COMPARING US TO EUROPE. YOU BETTER. FIRST COMES THE HIGH PRICES THEN COMES THE LITTLE WIMPY CARS AND MOTORCYCLES EVERWHERE. BUT THEY STILL RUN THE PRICE OF GAS UP TO FOUR AND FIVE DOLLARS A GALLON. THE DEMAND DROPS SO THEY COMPENSATE WITH PRICE. I DONT KNOW WHERE THE WHEEL WILL STOP, BUT ITS NOT GOING TO STOP UNTIL EVERYONE HAS BEEN RUN OVER. THANKS FOR READING THIS @#$T!

[joe4speed]

Originally posted by jimberg:
Can you believe that lawmakers here in Minnesota are considering allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses?

That could be a scary thing!!!

[97snakedriver]

Originally posted by 95mustanggt:
That maybe true in Canada and the US, but think about all the 3rd world countries out there are are starting to drive and enter into some industrial production. They all want and need fuel. And that number is MUCH larger than the growth in supply in the world (or people in North America for that matter )

Between 3-4%, which means they double in population every 15-20 or so years. But the population growth is pretty much inversely proportional to economic growth. Take India for example. Their middle/upper class is roughly the same size as ours (US). But their lower (very lower) class is many many times larger. The lower class is growing rapidly, while the upper classes aren't. It skews the results. Also the lower class is such countries have hard enough time finding something to eat, much less driving. Lets all count our blessings.

by Unit
CA blackouts have little to do with natural supply and demand. They have more to do with the power companies going under and not making their loans because they were forced into charging a certain amount by the Government.

Hmm... What I said... But also what I said, this has to do with what CA politions have been doing for the last 20 years really (but more so in the last 8 or so), not what Bush (either actually) has done, which was the point of my original reply.

It does have to do with supply and demand when the supply is cut-off for political reasons while demand continues to grow until demand out grows supply and here we are... You have 5 apples and six friends and daddy won't let you have any more apples...

Drilling for American reserves helps American oil companies. Are you really sure you want to argue that?

I wasn't. I don't think anyone was...

Fuel is the cheapest for the US because we buy the most. It's like shopping at Wal Mart vs Snyders. I really hate that stupid comparision. Gas is cheapest in the US so we shouldn't complain. What an absolutely skewed comment. Would you like to compare our useage to another country? Maybe we should all be spazzing out because the US has crap for mass transit? Oh, wait, that's because most places in the US don't have similar population density's as the country's you are comparing us to. Say former West Germany, which is about the same size as MN and WI, but it's population was over 60 million. Comparing us to other countries is like comparing a Model T to an F360 Modena.

Wow. Subtract the taxes charged on gas in Germany (or Europe in general) and compare again... That ~$4 a gallon in taxes makes a bit of difference. Plus not everybody driving in Europe is pimping around in exotics, the vast (vast, vast, vast) majority of those have cars, have cars like the Ford Kai which makes a 3 cylinder Geo Metro look Pimp Daddy Fabiouslo!

Anyway, what exactly are you bitching about? Artificial price raises? Fair enough. But lack of mass transit? Too low of taxes? Whatever. And very little of this has to do with Bush (as of yet).


[This message has been edited by 97snakedriver (edited 05-22-2001).]

[Power]

Originally posted by jimberg:
Power, I had no problems driving in Quebec where all the road signs are in French.

I agree with you. Pretty much anybody with some common sense should be able to do ok with different language road signs. I just thought it was funny that we give the test in different languages but no signs in different languages. Last time I checked the USA was and English language country. So when you go to parts of Texas why do they look at you with a dirty look when you don't speak spanish. Or the dirty looks you get in "Little Cuba" in Florida. I believe the undoing of this country will be the lack of action on Illegal immigrants. We all know that anybody can get in this country if they try hard enough. How long before someone drives acrosss the Mexican or Canadian border with a nuclear weapon in the back of a van?? Not if......but when.