Fuel Prices

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by MEDIK418

I've watched this argument for many years now. It always goes the same way. Yes there are side tracks that some folks take in order to fix blame on this politician or that one but it's always the same. Poor lil us and our plight with the big oil companies.

You want gas prices to go down? Stop driving so much. Don't hand me the crap about the kid down the block who can't afford to commute to his job at Mikkey Dee's since gas costs so much. There's a McDonalds on every other corner and the thought that someone has to commute hundreds of miles a week to get to one is a load of hogwash. Young people as a rule blow through gas like it's like the air we breathe. . . free for the taking.

For more than 40 years now the federal and state governments have been legislating us into this mess we're in right now and the voters who keep these idiots in office are more to blame than the idiots themselves. The problem in this country with high gas prices has nothing to do with the price of crude oil. Most oil companies in this world produce as much crude oil and they buy. It's a kind of break even for most of the bigger companies.

I've heard all sorts of schemes on how we should all only buy gas on even days, or only on Tesdays and Thursdays. Everything in the book to bring the majors to their knees. Forget it! All you're going to do there is postpone the inevitable. If you don't buy gas on 5 of the 7 days that are in a week, all you do is leave the gas station attendants with some clean-up time 5 days a week. They buy gas in big tankfulls, they can go for a couple of weeks without you buying their gas and it will have no affect whatsoever on any oil company no matter how far up the food chain they are. Let's boycott Mobile gas stations. All you do there is punsih the owner/operator who just paid a rediculous price for the gas he can't sell now and pretty soon, we've run his mangy butt out of business. One more station for the major oil companies to take over or replace with one of their corporate minimarts.

You folks in California??? Congratulations. You've spent decades trying to get rid of the giant polluting oil refineries and now guess what? You've got the highest prices in the nation. Not just now but forever. San Diego typically has the highest gas prices in the nation. Wanna guess why? Because you people legislated yourselves into it!
How many refineries have we as a country built in the last 80 years? I'm not talking about state sponsored construction, I'm talking about refineries that have been built by Americans on American soil? Not one!

How many have we shut down in that same time frame? Hundreds! IT's easy for our government jackasses in state and federal houses of congress to legilate the latest anti-polluting laws on refiners. Unfortunately, ALL of the smaller refiners who didn't have the extra 10 million bucks in the bank to bring their refineries up to snuff had to either close down or, as is the case in most, they sellout to the bigger oil companies who have the deeper pockets and can afford the midifications. Unfortunately, any time a small oil company is taken over, more than 80 percent of their small refineries are sold for scrap bacause even the big guys have a limit to the amount of money they can throw at old technology.

By now you may start to suspect I work for an oil company. Yes I do. I've done so for 25 years now and hopefully will continue to do so for another 10 years or so. One ot the two refineries along the gulf coast that cannot start up for a few months is one of ours. We're looking at another 3 months before production can resume. There are over 700 additional people on site as we speak trying feverishly to get it back up and running. Every day the plant is down is costing the company 8.8 million dollars in lost opportunities. This is just lost sales. This doesn't even include the cost of tearing the entire plant down to clear the salt water and the 700 contractors they had to hire to do the work.

The bottom line is that we as a country are depending on a fraction of the refineries we once had to do the work of twice that number could do 40 years ago. We cannot build new refineries. . . period and that, coupled with our exhorbitant driving habits is why gas prices are so high.

You want gas prices to come down? Stop driving so much. Lose those gas guzzling hogs we drive and stop driving to a store two blocks away when it would do all of us good to walk that far once in a while. I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I drive an Avalanche that takes a hunnert dollar bill to fill up now and I'm building a Mustang right now that I'm sure will eat more gas than the truck but guess what. . .I'm not moaning and groaning and yes, my gas costs just as much as yours does.

Oil companies raise gas prices in times like these for many reasons and yes profit is one. Another is that they are trying to slow the depletion of a resource they can see is going to be in short supply for a while. Another still is the amount of money they stuff back into finding more crude and designing ways to make the refineries we have more efficient and productive. Legislation killed the refining capacity in this country. You want to blame someone? Go hang a politician who keeps voting to keep us out of areas where the oil is just to save a mud flat where virtually nothing lives. "but it's a wilderness" the argument goes. How many of you have ever gone to the Northern end of Alaska to visit the swamp there? That's what I thought.

Stern words? Yup! I've seen first hand how the government and liberal tree huggers have destroyed any hopes we have of lowering gas prices and it makes me sick to see so many people aiming their frustrations in the wrong direction. Want to hear something hilarious? Does the government realize that they have done this to us? You bet they do. Right now, due to the mess Katrina made, Congress is trying to pass legislation that will allow refiners to forgo the clean gasoline restrictions until the refining shortage is over. They know damn well they have caused this mess and this little stop gap measure won't help much at all. You see, to go back to making gasoline with a little higher sulfur content, they'd have to "unbuild" the newer technology that they threw away after the previous legislation Congress passed. What better way for our government to force refiners to spend more money at the whim of some politician in Washington. That will sure make gas prices go back down huh?

Want to get some of that money back? Right now the oil field is rife with work for people wanting to actually work. I mean back-breaking, noisy, dirty work that pays a kid out of high school close to a hundred thousand dollars a year. It's not glamorous and you won't learn anything that will get you a white collar job later but it's there and it's going to be for some years to come. We're in another oil and gas boom right now folks. It's going to take years to reach the level of oil and gas production in this country to match what we are using every day.

Remember who you voted for come next election. Are they part of the poroblem or part of the solution?

I took the liberty of formatting your post for clarity only because it is so absolutely on the money and clearly explains many of the factors behind the price of gas in the U.S. and the effect of the environmental whacko-driven restrictions on new refineries. That it also delineates the constant of supply and demand on price is another reason that I hope many will read it.

Thanks for your insights.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by MEDIK418

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Maybe I forgot to finish part of my last quote. EVERYONE is going to have to stop driving so much. Did you know that we are driving MORE now than we were two years ago. On average Americans are driving more than when gas prices shot up two years ago. Not just the big rich SUV drivers (which by the way, I take tremendous offense with your reference that only rich people can afford to drive but I'll address that in a minute) but every one of the little buzzmobiles I see every time I visit San Diego.

The traffic never seems to stop 24 hours a day out there. Something else too, how many do you see in the express lanes? Not many. Phoenix, California, Washington DC, you name the place we as America are too self involved to share a ride with the people we work with every day. Oh, there are a few but there again, it seems the country wasted a lot of taxpayer money building carpool lanes that sit empty until after rush hour is over.

Theory? It's not a theory that we are running on one tenth the number of refineries we were in 1970. There wasn't a shortage then and there's none now. The plant I work in is running at maximum but our tanks are as full now as they were a month ago. The summer rush had more to do with inventories than Katrina did. Yes, there were spot shortages while the big pipelies were down but that should have corrected itself by now. And it has according to gas prices. Remember. . . .oil companies jack prices up in an attempt to make us drive less and use less gas bacause they forsee an opportunity for shortages later on down the road. It should be a harbinger of things to come, not a reason to gripe and blame politicians.

Let's address government stockpiles of crude oil. Do you actually know how much they have for us? Not even a day's worth of crude, that's how much. If you turned off the wells, the tankers coming from Russia, and the middle east, they government stockpile wouldn't last a day. It's a joke. The only reason they keep them around is that it makes politicians warm and fuzzy thinking that they have us convinced that we're safe relying on the spare oil they stocked up on. It's a joke. I'm not making this up, look in the business section of your local newspaper. It tells right there in black and white how much crude oil we go through each and every day of our lives and it makes the federal government look awful stupid when you consider how much oil is in this so-called government reserve. The only affect that releasing the oil they said they were going to was the same affect that 9/11 had on the price of gas. People THOUGHT there was going to be a shortage so they went into a panic-buying frenzy and caused spot shortages across the country. This time, with Katrina, the government said they were going to release some oil and people relaxed a little. The jobbers realized the panic was about over and prices started going down. It happens every time there's a hiccup in the oil industry nowadays.

Here's a little lesson to mull over. The plant I work at suffered through a series of really bad luck events beginning in January. Failed airfins, an explosion, a couple of fires. . .all contributed to our not being able to produce ANYTHING for 123 days. That was 144,000 barrels of crude that didn't get processed every day we were down. Did you see a jump in gas prices? Nope! not a one. Why? Because the press didn't get wind of it that's why. The good ole news media didn't have the opportunity to put America in a panic like they so love to do. We're so far back in the sticks, they didn't find out about us.

Now, let's talk about the people with the large SUVs who don't give a crap about how much we pay for gas. Your theory is full of bugjuice. Like I said, I drive one and I've had to shut down a lot of driving lately. My son who has a 120mile commute (one way) has opted to live in the town he works in for the 7 days he has to be there (7 on and 7 off) Why? Because we pay the same price for gas as everyone else and it hurts us just as much as the next guy. I've gone from driving about 3 tankfulls out every month to one. That's with two of us driving it to work. I've ressurected an old Suzuki 750 to get to work in a week or so. We look for ways to consolidate errands to make the most of the gas we have. I'm not sure how much you think a person has to make for a living to buy one of these things but it's not much more than most small cars on the market these days. (Besides that, California has more little cars running around the state than anyone and they use more gas than most other states.) I drive it because I like the room and yes, I choose to pay the penalty for doing so at the pump but don't tell me I don't hurt every time I fill up. You don't have a monopoly on cash limits here. I've got a Mustang in the driveway that's a clutch and a X-pipe away from being finished enough to drive but guess what? I spent most of the extra money on gas last month. I still stand by what I said.

You want to slow the price of gas down a bit? Stop driving so much. EVERYONE. If theres' no market for the stuff, it won't be worth as much. Another thing, next time there's a calamity like the one that happened to the Gufl coast, dont' cause the prices to shoot shy high by lining up at the pump in block long lines to get the last drop of gas before the next truckload shows up. This kind of crap feeds the media like a school of sharks. One front page headline with a picture of the morons sitting in line for gas is usually all it takes for the gasoline distributors to start seeing dollar signs. Why do I say this? Because I know several of them and they love this stuff. It would take weeks for an event like that to start affecting the gasoline and oil reserves in this country. OK, forget I mentioned reserves, insert the word inventories for that.

Anyway, I don't mean for this to be mean spirited but I'm sick of the lies that the national media is telling about anything that affects this country and on this subject, I can shed a little light. I've been in this business for over 25 years now and I laugh every time I see a story on the gas crisis. Not because of the effects but because of the lies I see in the news over it. Think of how many personal owned vehicles we have in this country. Millions upon millions. Think how much gas we would save for another day if each of those vehicles drove just 2 percent less each week. I don't have the answer buy can bet it would make a big dent in the price of gas in this country. Till then, I can promise that there are a lot of folks out there who are doing all they can to make as much gas as they possibly can with the equipment they have to work with and they'll continue to do so as long as we can.

Thanks again for another informational post.

I believe we have some 200 million vehicles on the road today and our driving population has also gone way up in the past 25 years. Something no one seems to take into account when talking about the availability and price of gas. Glad you brought it up.

The fact that the morons who instantly top off their gas tanks at the slightest indication of some possible slowing of the gas flow to the pumps has always been a problem, as far back as the 1973 gas 'crisis'. Nothing has changed and the media is as guilty as ever of promoting the 'panic' over gas 'shortages', then making alarmist noises (interviewing grumpy people complaining about the price of gas) when the price inevitably goes up. That so few folks seem to see the correlation between panic buying , some actual gas shortages - and the rise in price is a given.

I doubt this will change, but thanks for the attempt to shed some light on the subject from the point of view of one working inside the oil industry, the medias favorite whipping boy, right after President Bush.

BTW: formatting is your friend. It just reads so much easier.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

I've never met or talked to a person working for an oil company that wasn't brutally patriotic about their company or their industry. They always have a dozen really lame-o reasons why they're not to blame. How it's the government's fault. How it's the consumer's fault. How it's OPEC's fault. It's never the oil company's fault, though.

Big companies make big profits. Microsoft makes many billions every year and, except for some money-grabbing federal lawsuits from the Clinton administration, no one cries 'foul'!

MEDIK418 has brought out some very good, factual points surrounding the price of gas...as well as the cost of gas that cannot be waved away as simply loyality to the business he's employed in. Not if you are going to be honest and not give in to knee-jerk, anti-capitalist reflexes or buy into the media demonization of 'big oil' as inherently 'evil'. I trust this will not be the case here.

Comparing the costs today vs 20 years ago looks good on paper until you start seeing things like Exxon Mobil recording a $10 billion profit last quarter.... That's more than any company in the history of the world.

So what? Why should there be a cap on what a company earns? If the price of the product being sold can be justified, which it can, as Exxon Mobil stations were charging retail gas customers prices in the mid-two-dollar range during that last fiscal quarter you mentioned, I see no reason to take their profits , whatever they are, as some smoking gun indicator that they are 'gouging'.

The fact that, adjusted for inflation, we now pay only a bit more for gas than dad did years ago is a significent factor in understanding the reality of the cost - and the price - of gas. That it undercuts your contentions is probably why you are eager to dismiss it but it remains a fact.

The oil companies ARE price gouging. There is no competition in the industry since the monopolistic merger of Exxon and Mobil. The companies in that industry are recording record profits for their industry, and in the case of the aforementioned Exxon-Mobil, in any industry in the history of the planet. The comment that oil companies jack up the price to control our driving habits is ludicrious, and simply insulting. They jack up the price because they know our driving habits, and how to take advantage of them.

You state that as if these oil companies operated without any federal or state regulations whatsoever! That's absurd. The government has plenty of oversight of oil companies and they also tax gas to death, something you neglected to mention. The oil companies do raise pump prices ('jack up') to make a profit, as MEDIK418 stated, and an ancillary benefit is that higher gas costs can lower overall use to some extent. That is axiomatic and will happen whether the oil companies intend it or not.

Refineries routinely go down in this country. Having one or two down isn't uncommon. Especially around or just before a typical driving holiday. That creates a theoretical shortage and voila, a reason to jack up prices. I've seen it used on several holiday's especially Memorial Day and Labor Day.

Profit-taking is a staple of business and raising the price is not a crime. Think about that the next time you buy a $9.00 movie ticket - or a $32,000 Mustang. Watch your insurance rates climb next year when the insurance companies start paying out millions to Gulf Coast residents who lost homes, property and cars...by the hundreds. It's simply the way most companies make a profit in the face of increased costs and by doing so, keep our economy churning quite nicely.

The argument that you can find a good job just around the corner is positively uninformed. Many states in this country have urban sprawl models in place that limit the expansion of business into the suburbs or away from the existing major metropolitan areas. With housing costs rising in the 10-20% range for the majority of the US metro areas, it creates great pressure to move further away from the major employers and commute further to work.

You take a job 30 miles away from your home with the full understanding that you will have to use a larger portion of your budget for gasoline to drive to and from work, as well as spend time on the road. It's a choice we all make. I've done this and so do millions of others. Buy an economical vehicle and you'll get around 30 MPG which will cost you - at today's $3.00-per-gallon prices, about $30. per week for gas to commute. If you can't even afford that, then the job must be part-time and pay minimum wage. Even then, at $6. per hour, you would be making over a hundred dollars a week on a 20-hour schedule. Paying $30. a week for gas would be a noticable bite from your paycheck, but you would still have over $60. per week, net, after gas and taxes. If that isn't enough, then either buy a motorcycle or find a job where you can get public treansportation. Many people do, Kell. I know some.

It's not the federal government keeping the oil industry down by not allowing more drilling in North America. It's the federal government pumping billions of dollars of tax breaks and grants into the industry as a political kick back in turn for the soft money under the table that our politicians get from big oil. The lame attempt at passing the buck along is just the average joe in this country speaking. Most people can't take responsibility for anything, and they simply pass the blame along. As if oil companies aren't a major part of the problem.

Whatever.

The big oil companies you seem to resent so much are owned by shareholders, many of them average Americans, and they want those companies to make a nice profit. The oil companies do make big money - but they are very regulated by government. A government that could cripple them if it really wanted to but won't, for obvious reasons: we need the gas and oil to survive as a nation. The oil companies, like every other big business in America, shovels big checks to both political parties to ensure they are not further regulated - and risk losing more money because of it. Granted, the deals the new federal energy bill gave to the oil companies seemed excessive, so I won't let them off the hook entirely. Money talks. However, I would check my congressman and senator's voting record to see if he or she approved this bill. If so, let them know you are displeased. Ask them to defend their vote. It's the American Way.

However, if government were less involved with the oil business, taxed the product a bit less (fat chance) and didn't place insane restrictions on building refinaries and drilling in frozen wastelands, it would benefit everyone. Unfortunately, that is not the case. So, the oil companies use their largess to influence politicians, as any government-regulated business has been doing for a hundred years. Take the politicians out of the game and the oil companies won't be sending millions to Washington, D.C. every year - because they wouldn't have to. Until then, the oil companies play the hand they are dealt. That we still have an abundent supply of affordable gasoline under the conditions MEDIK418 described is a testimony to the oil companies inventiveness and a temporary spike in gas prices is hardly a reason to demonize them once again, as the media and the anti-business crowd has done. However, this is an old game, promoted by the (mostly) anti-business media and so, will be going on a very long time.

I'm still pleased have gasoline readily available at an affordable price, even if some folks think they should be getting their gas at 1995 prices. Of course, these same folks don't see anything wrong in selling the home they bought in 1995 for three times the price they paid for it. Noooo. That's just 'taking advantage of the market'...when they do it. But let gas prices rise by 30 or 40%, even temporarily, it's 'gouging' and a 'rip-off'.

Whatever.

[MEDIK418]

Thank you Mr. 5.0 for the assist. I was taught long ago that if you want to write, then start writing. Don't think just write. Before you get too far, if you're truly passionate about the subject it will begin to make sense. I have to do this at midnight and only have about 15 minutes to do it. Thus, wysiwyg.
I will address some of the comments unit 5302 made. tomorrow evening. I will try to keep myself reigned in but he made some comments I would like to dispute. One thing I will say tonight though. I will never make an excuse for the prices oil companies are charging for gas right now. I think it's insane and in some cases downright criminal. I will however try to explain how some of the prices, and I'm referring to our everyday high prices got to where they are. Some won't believe it but I promise to be as truthful as I can be.

[ralph s]

praise God we live in the USA. supply and demand. i would rather be at the mercey of an industry then have hillary setting the price of my fuel. fact is i dont believe in price setting or our subsidation of foriegn oil, or any other commodity for that matter. capitolism is what made this nation great, not fed control, state control, or any other socialist notions.
Fact: fuel is expensive
fact: oil companies are in it for the money
fact: if it dont make dollars it dont make sense
change your habits or dont. the idea of blaming a corp that is in buisness to make money for making money is a bit .... at a loss for words. besides with a pressure cooker and copper tube we could make our own fuel. if you can replace floor pans, retrofit drivetrains, etc. you can make ethyl.
end of rant.

[Unit 5302]

So what? So what if big companies make big profits? That's not the point here. Capping profit is inherently against the concept of capitalism. So is the lack of competition, which in a capitalist environment can easily lead to corporate greed and price fixing.

The point is the profit has literally increased between 300%-600% since the merger of Exxon-Mobil. Their gas stations are not responsible for the dramatic increase in profitability.

Microsoft is a very poor example of a fine and upstanding company since they've been attacked in court and defeated for anti-trust violations. Even though I feel Microsoft has made it to its position largely by producing products very few people in the industry actually want or can compete with, growing their products and technology since the inception of the company.

On the other hand, Exxon-Mobil was created out of a merger between two giant corporations, allowed by the federal government despite significant risk to market competition.

I don't know why you keep attempting to go back to the inflation argument. It has almost nothing to do with my complaint. I'm not complaining about the price of oil or gas in itself. I'm complaining about the price of gas that is directly related to the profit the oil companies are making, which also throws out your argument about gas taxes. While profits would need to increase with inflation in order to continue the same adjusted profit, that's hardly reason for a 300-600% increase over the past few years or an 80% increase in the last reported quarter.

I maintain that oil companies do not raise prices to control consumption, and that any person making that argument is naive. I would also wager that the oil companies have not raised their profit component enough at any one period to discourage consumption as that may begin to impact their profitability curve.

Onto government regulation..... Our government, led by a president with huge ties to oil companies decided to give billions of dollars of new tax breaks to the industry. Our government allowed a merger to create the world's second largest oil company despite the great concern of many analysts and consumers. Our goverment hints at an investigation of gas prices, and suddenly prices plummet for a few days quieting the unrest as prices slowly edge back up. You raising this issue is a bit like a prosecutor objecting to an admission of guilt.

Don't get condescending with me. I'm not arguing that people that choose to live further from work shouldn't do so without considering the consequences. I live 3.5mi from my job and own two motorcycles which I use to commute frequently for a reason. Okay, I admit, I own the motorcycles for recreational purposes, but I have begun commuting much more frequently with them because it's so much cheaper.

I realize $100/mo may mean little to the majority, but it does mean something to quite a few people that aren't just making minimum wage or working part time. I'm sure a lot of people that are significantly impacted by the price of fuel are thinking "If I buy another car, that'll fix my budget issue." What do you suppose the average household making $40-60k/yr has for expendible income at the end of the month? Most people I work with have household incomes of around $80k/yr or so. From their net paychecks probably 35% is used to pay for the mortgage, 15% is used to pay for childcare, 15% goes for the car payment, 15% pays for food, leaving 20% of their maybe $52k take home for all other payments. By the time all the bills are paid, that $100 change may be a 10% impact on expendible income. Now, that being said, my model is probably a little conservative with more money being left over, but not every family makes $80k/yr.

Love the shareholder argument. Tell me what percentage of people can invest in a natural resources portfolio within their 401k plan? Seriously. How many average middle class or lower income people have investments in traditionally risky companies? Exxon-Mobil is buying back $5 billion of stock per quarter, and that where the stock is. The company, its employees and especially its high level executives. Of course, there are also a lot of very wealthy shareholders that also like the stock to go up. Few shareholders are middle class non-employee's.

I'm not sure why you were coming after me. My problem is not necessarily with the points MEDIK418 made, but rather with the points he didn't make. He addressed that in his last post, and I'm satisfied.

As for your points, I don't see as they are necessarily relevent to my complaint or even correct under close examination.

[scootro]

dammmmm bloodsuckers

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

So what? So what if big companies make big profits? That's not the point here. Capping profit is inherently against the concept of capitalism. So is the lack of competition, which in a capitalist environment can easily lead to corporate greed and price fixing.

Which is investigated and prosecuted by the Justice Department. You seem to believe that the oil companies simply do as they please and that they are practically unregulated, which is about 180 degrees from the truth. This is 2005, not 1905.

The point is the profit has literally increased between 300%-600% since the merger of Exxon-Mobil. Their gas stations are not responsible for the dramatic increase in profitability.

Because they sell a lot more gas now and costs have gone down over time due to the merger. Cost control and higher profits were the reason for the merger.

Microsoft is a very poor example of a fine and upstanding company since they've been attacked in court and defeated for anti-trust violations.

Which I mentioned. Their profits are also very large, which seems to be what upsets you the most.

Even though I feel Microsoft has made it to its position largely by producing products very few people in the industry actually want or can compete with, growing their products and technology since the inception of the company.

At least you recognize Microsoft's reason for success. Giving people what they want and doing it better than anyone else is the age-old route to business growth and high profits. Henry Ford did it 100 years ago and so have many others, since. When that happens, profit will soar. That some find this natural economic occurrence some symptom of evil intents is rather pathetic.

On the other hand, Exxon-Mobil was created out of a merger between two giant corporations, allowed by the federal government despite significant risk to market competition.

That 'significent risk' is one view and is not shared by all observers.

I don't know why you keep attempting to go back to the inflation argument. It has almost nothing to do with my complaint. I'm not complaining about the price of oil or gas in itself.

I am not at all surprised that you want to dismiss the very real fact that - adjusted for inflation - gas now costs only a bit more than it did 20 or 30 years ago, even though we use a lot more of it, now. That is a significent fact, whether you wish to deal with it, or not.

I'm complaining about the price of gas that is directly related to the profit the oil companies are making, which also throws out your argument about gas taxes.

Not at all. Gas taxes add to the cost of every gallon of gas we put into our vehicles and that is another signigicent factor when discusssing gas prices.

While profits would need to increase with inflation in order to continue the same adjusted profit, that's hardly reason for a 300-600% increase over the past few years or an 80% increase in the last reported quarter.

There are many reasons for the profit increase, as you already know. That rate of profit will not be sustained as expenses will go up and other factors will also impact on the oil companies profits. You must know that, too.

I maintain that oil companies do not raise prices to control consumption, and that any person making that argument is naive. I would also wager that the oil companies have not raised their profit component enough at any one period to discourage consumption as that may begin to impact their profitability curve.

They raise prices when supply is insufficient to demand. So does every other business. C'mon! I have already stated that the fact that high gas prices normally drive down consumption is an ancillary effect of those higher prices and would occur whether the oil companies wanted it to, or not.

Onto government regulation..... Our government, led by a president with huge ties to oil companies decided to give billions of dollars of new tax breaks to the industry. Our government allowed a merger to create the world's second largest oil company despite the great concern of many analysts and consumers. Our goverment hints at an investigation of gas prices, and suddenly prices plummet for a few days quieting the unrest as prices slowly edge back up. You raising this issue is a bit like a prosecutor objecting to an admission of guilt.

The Bush Energy Bill was far too pliant toward the oil companies interests, as I have already stated. Do you even read anything I post or do you just skim and look for points to oppose?

Every time gas prices go up sharply members of congress and the public demand an investigation. They usually get it and no 'gouging' is ever found, no matter who does the investigating.

Don't get condescending with me. I'm not arguing that people that choose to live further from work shouldn't do so without considering the consequences. I live 3.5mi from my job and own two motorcycles which I use to commute frequently for a reason. Okay, I admit, I own the motorcycles for recreational purposes, but I have begun commuting much more frequently with them because it's so much cheaper.

Stating realities is not 'condescending', Kell. We all make our choices and those who choose to commute a long distance 5 days a week and then cry when gas prices go up sharply are somewhat naive.

I realize $100/mo may mean little to the majority, but it does mean something to quite a few people that aren't just making minimum wage or working part time. I'm sure a lot of people that are significantly impacted by the price of fuel are thinking "If I buy another car, that'll fix my budget issue." What do you suppose the average household making $40-60k/yr has for expendible income at the end of the month? Most people I work with have household incomes of around $80k/yr or so. From their net paychecks probably 35% is used to pay for the mortgage, 15% is used to pay for childcare, 15% goes for the car payment, 15% pays for food, leaving 20% of their maybe $52k take home for all other payments. By the time all the bills are paid, that $100 change may be a 10% impact on expendible income. Now, that being said, my model is probably a little conservative with more money being left over, but not every family makes $80k/yr.

Gas prices certainly do have some impact on the economy as a whole, beginning with each citizens household budget. I never said that they didn't. In our generally affluent country, we still pay less for gas than many, less-affluent country's drivers do, which is great, in my opinion. How much the current rise in U.S. pump gas prices will actually impact our overall economy remains to be seen.

Love the shareholder argument. Tell me what percentage of people can invest in a natural resources portfolio within their 401k plan? Seriously. How many average middle class or lower income people have investments in traditionally risky companies? Exxon-Mobil is buying back $5 billion of stock per quarter, and that where the stock is. The company, its employees and especially its high level executives. Of course, there are also a lot of very wealthy shareholders that also like the stock to go up. Few shareholders are middle class non-employee's.

Perhaps, but whomever owns that Exxon-Mobil stock has a reasonable expectation that it will perform well, as any stockholder does, regardless of their income level or sophistication. To imply that if a stockholder is not solidly middle-class they don't count is ridiculous. I thought you respected and understood capitalism?

I'm not sure why you were coming after me. My problem is not necessarily with the points MEDIK418 made, but rather with the points he didn't make. He addressed that in his last post, and I'm satisfied.

I simply disagreed with some of the things you posted and wanted to give another point of view. That your screen name is on the posts is irrelevant. I would have made the same replies to anyone who held the same opinions on the same issues.

As for your points, I don't see as they are necessarily relevent to my complaint or even correct under close examination.

I think they are clearly relevant and your opinion of their accuracy is open to debate, which is what the forum is for, isn't it? However, I am getting tired of going over the same basic ground and am quite willing to give you the last word here in order to conclude our exchange, as the price of gas has dropped and the issue is becoming stale at this point...at least, for me.

[82 GT]

Mr.5 0 , I'm going to venture a guess that you were on the high school debate team

[Unit 5302]

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Which is investigated and prosecuted by the Justice Department. You seem to believe that the oil companies simply do as they please and that they are practically unregulated, which is about 180 degrees from the truth. This is 2005, not 1905.



Because they sell a lot more gas now and costs have gone down over time due to the merger. Cost control and higher profits were the reason for the merger.



Which I mentioned. Their profits are also very large, which seems to be what upsets you the most.



At least you recognize Microsoft's reason for success. Giving people what they want and doing it better than anyone else is the age-old route to business growth and high profits. Henry Ford did it 100 years ago and so have many others, since. When that happens, profit will soar. That some find this natural economic occurrence some symptom of evil intents is rather pathetic.



That 'significent risk' is one view and is not shared by all observers.



I am not at all surprised that you want to dismiss the very real fact that - adjusted for inflation - gas now costs only a bit more than it did 20 or 30 years ago, even though we use a lot more of it, now. That is a significent fact, whether you wish to deal with it, or not.



Not at all. Gas taxes add to the cost of every gallon of gas we put into our vehicles and that is another signigicent factor when discusssing gas prices.



There are many reasons for the profit increase, as you already know. That rate of profit will not be sustained as expenses will go up and other factors will also impact on the oil companies profits. You must know that, too.



They raise prices when supply is insufficient to demand. So does every other business. C'mon! I have already stated that the fact that high gas prices normally drive down consumption is an ancillary effect of those higher prices and would occur whether the oil companies wanted it to, or not.



The Bush Energy Bill was far too pliant toward the oil companies interests, as I have already stated. Do you even read anything I post or do you just skim and look for points to oppose?

Every time gas prices go up sharply members of congress and the public demand an investigation. They usually get it and no 'gouging' is ever found, no matter who does the investigating.



Stating realities is not 'condescending', Kell. We all make our choices and those who choose to commute a long distance 5 days a week and then cry when gas prices go up sharply are somewhat naive.



Gas prices certainly do have some impact on the economy as a whole, beginning with each citizens household budget. I never said that they didn't. In our generally affluent country, we still pay less for gas than many, less-affluent country's drivers do, which is great, in my opinion. How much the current rise in U.S. pump gas prices will actually impact our overall economy remains to be seen.



Perhaps, but whomever owns that Exxon-Mobil stock has a reasonable expectation that it will perform well, as any stockholder does, regardless of their income level or sophistication. To imply that if a stockholder is not solidly middle-class they don't count is ridiculous. I thought you respected and understood capitalism?



I simply disagreed with some of the things you posted and wanted to give another point of view. That your screen name is on the posts is irrelevant. I would have made the same replies to anyone who held the same opinions on the same issues.



I think they are clearly relevant and your opinion of their accuracy is open to debate, which is what the forum is for, isn't it? However, I am getting tired of going over the same basic ground and am quite willing to give you the last word here in order to conclude our exchange, as the price of gas has dropped and the issue is becoming stale at this point...at least, for me.

Stale. Simply because you have no way to actually debate me, this is becoming stale is it? After making it more than abundantly clear what my main issue was with the cost of gasoline, you simply ignored it and continued babbling on about irrelevent material. Perhaps you were hoping that innundating myself and other members with naive opinions and unrelated debate topics would present a more powerful position than what you actually had. For most people, you probably did. Changing the subject is what many politicans do when they're beat. You're not a very gracious loser, are you? Well then, since you have nothing relevent to my points that you'd like to address, I'm going to leave this political game.

[82 GT]

Well, I may not know as much about politics as you and Mr. 50 do but I did understand the point you were trying to make.
Having said that, anything that I tried to point out early in the thread was considered mute.
I quit because Mr. 5 0 has a servere superiorority complex and ego.

[nastyn8]

haha master debater.......... you guys argue like little kids man. sometimes you got to know when to just let something go.
Heres a little joke for mr 50. "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.... even if you win your still retarded".

Are you trying to talk shit about flipping burgers? Well ive worked at Hardees for almost 4 years now and when I started minimum wage was at 5.15, now at 6.50. I make over $10 an hour now so I can't complain much other than I hate most ppl I work with. Everytime I see someone thats overweight I think to myself now thats job security. If fast food is the only thing available or the only thing flexible with school (which works for me) you might as well do it.

I know there's job security in the insurance business but honestly who likes an insurance salesman. Insurance ppl are on the food chain right next to bankers and car salesmen.

Anyway off from the personal shit... I was shocked by fuel prices, not depressed.
I immediately decided I am going to cut down on my fuel usage. Although I dont even average 20 miles of commuting a day. I drive 12 miles round trip for school and not even 4 miles to work and back. Then I got to thinkin there are back roads I can take from my house to college so I decided to ride my fourwheeler I bought in May. I road it to school 6 days and didnt even burn a half a tank. Then i got tired of goin to class with my hair filled with gravel dust and bugs in my teeth so I decided to start driving my truck again.

Are any other areas limiting their police potroling? Here and a few other towns are limited to 20 miles a day per officer and they are not allowed to drive the cruisers home at night. something they should have come up with years ago. HAHA

Its just money, to hell with it. Some people should stop and think American Currency doesn't mean dick in Hell.

Well guys 2 cents is your change, thank you and have a nice evening ,.|..

[Capri306]

Honestly, I was hoping for over $5/gal, but it's already heading below $60/barrel for crude, so that dream is gone.

[nastyn8]

I was too. The day it jacked up a whole buck here there was like 40 people at every gas station in town. $3.69 was the tallest it got here. A whole bunch of old people were filling their cars up and they all had a couple of cans with them. It was some what amusing to.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by nastyn8

haha master debater.......... you guys argue like little kids man. sometimes you got to know when to just let something go.
Heres a little joke for mr 50. "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.... even if you win your still retarded".

Why did you bother reading the posts if it's all so 'retarded' to simply exchange opinions? You apparently missed the raison d'être for the political forum...which is to discuss issues of national and cultural interest. Sorry if you're not up to doing so but foolishly trying to belittle those who do is lame. That Unit 5302 gets all huffy and dismissive when he can't dominate a discusssion here is old news for those of us who have debated him on many previous occasions. I expected the discussion to end with his pouting. Nothing new.

Are you trying to talk shit about flipping burgers? Well ive worked at Hardees for almost 4 years now and when I started minimum wage was at 5.15, now at 6.50. I make over $10 an hour now so I can't complain much other than I hate most ppl I work with. Everytime I see someone thats overweight I think to myself now thats job security. If fast food is the only thing available or the only thing flexible with school (which works for me) you might as well do it.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us.

I know there's job security in the insurance business but honestly who likes an insurance salesman. Insurance ppl are on the food chain right next to bankers and car salesmen.

You are making false assumpions about someone you do not know from Adam. Your mistake.

Anyway off from the personal shit... I was shocked by fuel prices, not depressed.
I immediately decided I am going to cut down on my fuel usage. Although I dont even average 20 miles of commuting a day. I drive 12 miles round trip for school and not even 4 miles to work and back. Then I got to thinkin there are back roads I can take from my house to college so I decided to ride my fourwheeler I bought in May. I road it to school 6 days and didnt even burn a half a tank. Then i got tired of goin to class with my hair filled with gravel dust and bugs in my teeth so I decided to start driving my truck again.

Well, all actions have consequences in one form or another.

Are any other areas limiting their police potroling? Here and a few other towns are limited to 20 miles a day per officer and they are not allowed to drive the cruisers home at night. something they should have come up with years ago. HAHA

Its just money, to hell with it. Some people should stop and think American Currency doesn't mean dick in Hell.

I must write that one down. It's so darn elegant.

However, we are not in 'hell' and American currency means quite a lot to us, the living, thank you.

Well guys 2 cents is your change, thank you and have a nice evening ,.|..

Did you say something?

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

Stale. Simply because you have no way to actually debate me, this is becoming stale is it? After making it more than abundantly clear what my main issue was with the cost of gasoline, you simply ignored it and continued babbling on about irrelevent material. Perhaps you were hoping that innundating myself and other members with naive opinions and unrelated debate topics would present a more powerful position than what you actually had. For most people, you probably did. Changing the subject is what many politicans do when they're beat. You're not a very gracious loser, are you? Well then, since you have nothing relevent to my points that you'd like to address, I'm going to leave this political game.

Awww, Kell. You disappoint me. I had hoped you would have adequately matured by now to be, at least, gracious enough to take the 'last word' I offered and not use it to launch pathetically lame attempts to belittle me when you cannot dominate the thread or legitimately dismiss my cogent responses to you. I guess I should have known better. You always go into a pout when you cannot dominate. Nothing has changed. How sad.

The price of gas is dropping daily and that does render the original discussion points - that oil companies are 'gouging' and make obscene profits...in your opinion...moot, whether you can admit or not. Give it up.

[82 GT]

It's amazing how someone can claim a "victory" in a totally objective discussion. How does that work Mr. 5 0?
A debate is like an argument with your girlfriend or wife....neither side ever capitulates. Both sides continue believing that their views are the correct ones.
Remeber that superiority complex I was telling you that you had?
It has shown it's ugly head multiple times during this thread.
I have also observed you "belittling" unit and others throughout this thread.

Also, how is it that you dislike people judging you who "don't know you from Adam", but it seems perfectly ok for YOU to judge others that "you don't know from Adam"?
Most of us have never met you but you're painting an ugly picture of yourself.

[Capri306]

I dunno about you guys, but I can feel the love in here.

[nastyn8]

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Did you say something?

yeah i said something, you're a lame p.o.s. and I could care less what you think or say about me or any other of these guys.

You come up insulting everyone with just what they think may be what is happening. There's a big difference between correcting someone and insulting someone. I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore b/c you're all talk.

[HoodStrype]

I like birds... they are pretty. Birds come in many shapes sizes and colors. I especially like big birds. Birds fly in the air. They build nests in trees, and sometimes in my house.

Birds are good for the environment because they die. After a few million years under many layers of sediment they give way to the heat and pressure and are transformed into oil. I hope my doggy Scruffy will be turned into oil too. He likes antifreeze.

My mommy says oil costs too much. But I told her it had to drilled and sucked out of the earth. Then it had to be taken by way of boat and/or truck hundreds of miles to get here. Then it had to be refined by taking the lightest of the gases and skimming them of of the top. There is very little that actually becomes gas. Then it has to captured and trucked once again to wholesalers, then to gas stations and to you. Yet a gallon of gas doesn't cost anymore than two bottled waters... unless you're at Disney Land and I here gas is cheaper than bottled water.

If you add in the fact that inflation means a dollar isn't what it used to be, gas cost even less.

I like birds, they are cool.