Overweight passengers having to purchase 2 seats, fair or not fair

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by jimberg
Every seat should be designed to be comfortable for a 6 foot, male that weighs about 220 lbs.

Perfect!

Take care,
-Chris

[DRASTiK]

I have the exact same opion as WADS on the fact that it's fair, but then again it's not. Less seating, more room is the only solution that I think will solve the issue, but of course that probably won't happen due to money issues.

[2000stanggirl]

Originally posted by jimberg
Charging by weight may be fair because it would apply to everyone equally.......

This isn't entirely true. I have to pay full fare for 30 and 60 pound children. You aren't paying by weight, you are paying for the seat. I'm a small person (little bigger after kids LOL) and at one time I was traveling to Chicago quite a bit. I am 5'2" and at the time weighed around 100-104 pounds. The seats were uncomfortable for me, so I can only imagine how a large person must feel when trying to squeeze into the tiny space.

It's time for airlines to change their seating. People in America have progressively gotten larger over the past few decades in both height and weight. Some airlines have already done this, some have not.

Perhaps because of the battles I've fought for accessibility in other areas for my son, I can empathize with these individuals that are being told they are too fat, and must purchase more than one ticket. Hammer stated that "While there is truth in hereditary heavyness, the worst cases are almost ALWAYS self made. In these cases, the issue was self-made and CAN be corrected." This is half true. Morbid obesity is most often caused by medical conditions. You simply cannot look at an overwieght person and judge if this person is fat because of laziness, or fat because of uncontrollable medical issues. The airlines are not talking about generally overweight passengers. They are refering to the morbidly obese (BMI over 40) and this is considered a disability weither you want it to be or not.

[Dark_5.0]

The only people that would call obesity a disability/handicap are liberals. You can choose wether or not to be fat, Christopher Reeves cant choose wether or not to be shackled to a wheelchair.

I knew that Mr 5.0 and UNIT would agree with me, that was a given.

I had the pleasure of sitting by a really fat stank @ss women when I flew from Phoenix to Burbank. It was Gross no matter how close to the window I got she was all over me, I made the mistake of reclining my seat, even more of her poored into my chair.

Obese people dont fit in carnival rides, So they dont go to carnivals and try to ride the rides. "See my point"

Later,

[kiku2sleep]

Is it wrong to charge overweight people more? Maybe so but I don't really care; it is defiantly not right to charge me the same price for half a seat as someone taking up 1 1/2. Why should the people that don't have a weight problem have to give up half their seat and end up being the one to suffer? I say charge them more or charge us less.

[Hammer]

You simply cannot look at an overwieght person and judge if this person is fat because of laziness, or fat because of uncontrollable medical issues.

Exactly! The question I pose is that just because its hard to tell the difference, we should pay everyone's way?
I'm sorry, but without good evidence, your not going to convince me that a huge percentage of the morbidly obese are that way because of legitimate medical issues.

this is considered a disability weither you want it to be or not.

If I cut my arm off because my cult believed that an evil spirit lived in it, should you pay for my hospital bill, special car, or counseling?
Doesn't matter, I'm disabled right?

Its funny that we're speaking of this, as I just watched one of those news reports of fraudulant disability claims. It's sad because the money that could be helping folks with REALLY bad problems is going to some of these frauds...

Also, generally speaking, you can make anything a disability if you expand the definition enough. Some say diabetes is a disability. (I have a good friend stricken with this illness) Should we be forced to pay for his insulin if he can pay for it himself or make airlines provide blood monitors? I don't want to seem like I'm going too far with this, but although my points may be a bit extreme, they are generally the same issue.

We all have to put up and pay for things that we are born with or things that have happened to us, and I have no problems helping those who REALLY need help in this world. But there is a line we all must draw in our own minds. When does the "needs" of one infringe on the "rights" of another? How do you define what a "right" is? Things that may be morally correct don't necessarily become the "rights" of a disenfranchised individual.

Its a blurry line that we all must determine for ourselves.

[PKRWUD]

Six Pages.

I predict this thread is going to go six pages.

Take care,
-Chris

[Mr 5 0]

O.K., I was kidding about airlines charging by the pound. I assumed that was apparent but, maybe not. It would be insulting and unacceptable to most folks, guaranteed. That's why I didn't mean for the suggestion to be taken at face value.

The obvious fair solution is to simply charge the obese person for two seats but as I stated in my first post on the subject, that can open the airlines up to the usual discrimination lawsuits, something they can ill afford right now.

What to do?

Realistically, make the seats bigger (as they once were). Barring that sensible approach (which would cut down on the amount of passengers that would fit into the plane) I don't see any other recourse other than to add the extra charge for another seat when an obese person cannot fit into the regular seat.

The whole ADA disability thing is a nightmare. Drug addicts are considered disabled! People who willingly ingest addiction-causing illegal drugs can get SSI, special treatment and even housing paid for by taxes. Outrageous, isn't it?

No one wants to deny help to the truly disabled and I know a few folks who get such help and need it. No problem. I'm glad to see a few of my tax dollars go to those who can't do for themselves because of something they were born with or otherwise had no hand in causing.

It's the people who become obese, drug-addicted or otherwise handicapped by their own actions that get most of us angry at a system that rewards foolish and destructive behavior, like overeating. The airline charging for two seats for the obese simply brings the issue out in the open.

I predict the airlines will win this one because it's not unreasonable and they have had the policy in place for some time but didn't advertise it. Yes, I know some overweight folks will be embarrassed and inconvenienced but as has been mentioned, flying on a commercial airline is not a constitutional right, it's a luxury. You can always drive, take a bus, train or a ship if necessary.

The problem we face today in our society is that no one wants to be held accountable for their actions in life. No matter how stupid or destructive the behavior, the taxpayers (also known as 'The Government') are expected to help pay for it in some form and the rest of us are supposed to excuse it, accomodate it and deal with it and never, never point out that it isn't our problem, they caused it themselves. No, that, you see, would be insensitive and judgemental.

This kind of liberal-directed-and-nutured nonsense is just a small part of the reason I'm a political conservative. I can think and use common sense and I know I'm not alone here by a long shot.

[paver one]

If their excess meat hangs over into another seat, then heck yes they should have to buy two or ride in the cargo section.........

[2000stanggirl]

Personally, I think the simplist and most cost effective solution would be to provide accessible seating for the morbidly obese. Perhaps a few rows of seats that instead of having three across, there are two larger seats. The airlines could certainly charge slightly more for these accomodations as they do for other accomodations for people with disablities (they charge out the @$$ for in flight oxygen) to counter their initial costs of replacing the seating. They wouldn't have to replace all seating, and they could have a restriction on the number of obese patrons to match the seating available.

I agree that it is not a "right" to fly, and that "wants" are often confused for "rights" but I also think that unless you have personally lived with a disabliity, you have no idea how difficult daily life is for these people. I certainly had no idea until I had my son, and expirenced first hand the struggle of living with a disablity. I see the world thru my sons eyes now, and have more compassion for those that struggle with daily life activities. Let me pose this situation to you. Is it a right or want for a child to play? What if it's a city playground? Does every child have the right to play? Or just able-bodied children? Does anyone have the right to demand that the city bring the park in compliance with ADA regulations and create an accessible park for ALL children? Or should everyone just look away because the majority of children are not disabled, so it's just a waste of money?

5.0 and Hammer, you guys are right, anything can be made to fit into the disablity catagory, and that is not right. The fact that drug addicts can collect SSI and other governments benefits absolutely enrages me, despite the fact that it is a mental illness. I've fought to just get basic medical help when no insurance company would give my son medical insurance. I certainly could not afford the $45,000 a month it was costing to keep him alive at one time. Was it fair to get government assistance (tax payers money) to keep him alive? Probably not, but he is my son, and I couldn't just watch him die because I didn't want him to be a burden on society. Fortunantely, his medical bills are far less now, and he has private medical insurance. Now I have to fight the school system for his right to education under IDEA (individuals with disabilities act)

Back to the airlines.....there is no way to make everyone happy. Tall people will still be cramped, orthopedically impaired people will still have difficulty navigating thru the narrow isles, and intolerant people will still have to deal with crying children. Let's face it, if your not flying 1st class, your flight may be miserable.

[PKRWUD]

2000stanggirl-

Damn.

I'm sorry, I haven't introduced myself, my name is Chris.

You are a hell of a woman.

Hang in there!

Damn.

Take care,
-Chris

[2000stanggirl]

LOL, Hi Chris. My name is Jayna....don't think I've ever mentioned that to anyone here......no one has asked

I'm only strong because I have to be for my son. I am his voice for now, and if I don't fight for him, no one else will. Perhaps I am a little too passionate about disability rights....but someone has to fight for these people that cannot help themselves.

Someday, if anyone is interested, I will tell my son's entire story. It's a long and hard one, so I don't tend to go into great detail until asked. He may only be 4 1/2 years old, but he is the strongest human being I've ever known, and he is my hero, and I love to talk about him.....if you couldn't tell.

Attached is a picture of my hero when he was a month old.

[srv1]

Originally posted by 2000stanggirl

I agree that it is not a "right" to fly, and that "wants" are often confused for "rights" but I also think that unless you have personally lived with a disabliity, you have no idea how difficult daily life is for these people. I certainly had no idea until I had my son, and expirenced first hand the struggle of living with a disablity. I see the world thru my sons eyes now, and have more compassion for those that struggle with daily life activities.

Back to the airlines.....there is no way to make everyone happy. Tall people will still be cramped, orthopedically impaired people will still have difficulty navigating thru the narrow isles, and intolerant people will still have to deal with crying children. Let's face it, if your not flying 1st class, your flight may be miserable.

i couldnt say it any beter.....

[Mr 5 0]

2000stanggirl:

Jayna, I can certainly sympathize with your son's plight and your battles to make his life bearable and as comfortable as possible. You guys are fighting the good fight together and are to be commended.

When one is confronted with a child's disability of course you will fight for him, as I or any other parent would. Understood.

In my opinion the ADA law is fine until it's misused, as it has been. That doesn't make it a bad law, just a misused law. That should be changed.

As for making playgrounds and such conform, if it's physically possible to do this it should be done. It usually is and not many object. I certainly do not. Sometimes extreme measures are demanded to accomodate certain individuals with handicaps and those have to sometimes be compromised and dealt with one-on-one.

ADA has good intentions but like all well-meaning but sweeping new laws, it can have unintended consequences such as supporting and protecting drug addicts and such, eating up precious resources that could be used elsewhere for people who are truly disabled and need immediate help.

The mis-application of the ADA law is regrettable and I predict that if abuses continue it will be changed when we once again have a Republican House and Senate following the November elections.

[srv1]

Originally posted by Dark_5.0

I had the pleasure of sitting by a really fat stank @ss women when I flew from Phoenix to Burbank

you should have rolled down your window!

[PKRWUD]

Jayna-
I would love to hear the story about your son, and what you/he's been through. I really am very impressed. I worked in nursing for two years and x-ray for two years when I was working at St. Johns Regional Med. Center, from 1990 - 1994. I have a lot of respect for people like you. If you don't want to get into it here, feel free to email me.

pkrwuds@pacbell.net

Take care,
-Chris

[lysacat]

Well Said Jayna!!!!
As you know my son is disabled too. The road is hard but it has to be travelled and we're stronger for it.
C-ya, Melisa

[WyldeBLS]

I come from a family where my father and mother are both overweight. This is something they have fought both of their lives. Neither one has ever been "average" size, and it didn't come from being lazy or eating wrong. They don't "pour" into other seats.

Neither one of them fly, but if they did, it would probably be pretty embarrassing for them to have to pay for two seats. But how does the airlines draw the line where a person has to buy two seats? I think that they wouldn't agree with this rule, and I don't either.

As expensive as it is to fly, I think the airlines should just provide extra seating which is more comfortable. Hell, should the guy that is too tall have to pay for the seat in front of him because his knee is poking the other guy in the back? Hell no.

If the airline companys wern't so greedy, they would accomodate people with an obesity problem, as well as any other disability.

Obesity a disability? Maybe..in fact...yes.

Drug addiction a disabilty? HELL NO.

Most people are out for the "What's best for me is the only way." Those people need to get their head out of their *** and realize there are different types and kinds of people in this world, and there is no excuse for prejudicity(if thats a word.)

[Unit 5302]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with almost everything said here.

I wasn't talking about charging via poundage. That doesn't exactly make a lot of sense, since anybody from say 0-250lbs will be able to squeeze into a single seat. I'm talking about an additional surcharge. It would allow the airlines to place a certain number of enlarged seats in coach, and force anybody who doesn't fit into a normal seat to pay a surcharge. If that were to fill up, they could have the option of a first class ticket, or two seats, or the next flight.

Being fat is not a disability in my opinion. Not in any way shape or form. Battling with being overweight, lol. Uh-huh. What a battle. Don't eat the ding dong. Drug abuse a disability? Nope. These examples are lifestyle choices. You choose to eat too much or not to exercise. You choose to take drugs, other than medical prescription abuse, which should be paid for by the appropriate party.

I don't know where I ever said to deny access to the public airlines? I just said it needs to have fair access.

People in this thread seem to think the airlines make money???? Wake up and smell the coffee, it's been brewing all morning. The airlines have never been very profitable. I know how all big business is evil (most of them pay for your jobs, and your standard of living). Why should big businesses, which generally make MUCH less than a smaller business per unit sold, have to foot the bill? It certainly would be great if the airlines increased seat size wouldn't it? Maybe the folks in here would like to pay 20% more for airfare? There is a profitability model to follow. The airlines must follow it or they'll fold. Many already have, and I'm dumbfounded when they attempt to secure money and start back up in an industry that has proven to be unprofitable.

The bleeding heart syndrome in this country is destroying OUR standard of living. The increase in the cost of living and taxes can be directly traced back to uncontrolled government spending and the US citizen's undying desire to right any wrong, and help everybody. I'm not saying it's bad to be generous. I think people in the US are good people, for the most part. What I am saying is we need to budget ourselves and control our spending. Not give till it hurts, and then criticize when businesses don't do the same, and instead seek reasonable profits. That's what our system is founded on. Profit. Supply and demand. This unceasing desire to make everything bad in the world somehow personal needs to end. It's not personal, and you don't need to feel as though you owe another person for them making a mistake or consciously making life difficult on themselves.

Jayna, please don't take my sentiments in the above post to somehow include your son. He didn't choose his condition. It just happened. I don't have the wisdom to properly analyze right and wrong in your situation. All I can do is hope somehow the technology, and the skills of people can learn how to heal the wrongs that are inflicted upon innocent people by life.

[Hammer]

This is obviously going to be one of those topics where we will have to agree to disagree....

Neither one of them fly, but if they did, it would probably be pretty embarrassing for them to have to pay for two seats.

I'm pretty short, and its kind of embarassing to have someone else help a grown man get an item from a high shelf.
I guess the taxpayers should buy me some stilts...

As expensive as it is to fly, I think the airlines should just provide extra seating which is more comfortable.

I agree that coach seating is too small, but as far as prices go, I can't remember them being as reasonable as they are right now...

If the airline companys wern't so goddamn greedy, they would accomodate people with an obesity problem, as well as any other disability.

Oh yes... the EVIL, GREEDY companies...
The same companies that have created the largest economy and wealthiest nation in the world. The same companies that provide jobs to Americans throughout the 50 states. The same companies that provide the best standard of living in the world....
Its just terrifying...

Obesity a disability? Maybe..in fact...yes

Should obesity be a disability under certain conditions? Yes
Should it be a disability under ALL conditions? No


I want to help those in need as much as the next guy. In fact, I make it a point to give what I can to several Veteran's assistance programs every year... But in this case, for every person you know that has a legitimate weight problem not of their control, I can name one that has never seen a gym.
Like I asked before, where do you draw the line?
and how much do you want to pay?

Also, I just noticed something.... I'm agreeing with Unit again!!
I must be in some alternate universe or something...