Iraqi prisoner abuse

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by 82 GT :

I get tired of hearing people saying "America holds itself to highter standards than the rest of the world"
Don't get me wrong...I'm all American through and through but that statement is total bullshit.

I disagree with that conclusion.

What is meant by the statement that America holds itself to a higher standard than the rest of the world refers to the fact that it is not our policy to mistreat prisoners in a war and that we generally are helpful and friendly to those whose lands we occupy, as in Iraq. The vast majority of other nations have no such 'standards' and simply murder prisoners or really torture them before killing them. In addition, our justice system - as in Iraq - reports abuses, investigates them fully and punishes those found guilty, after a trial. Other nations hide their crimes or just ignore abuses. A look at history will verify this, as in World War II when American forces liberated Europe and found thousands of starving people in German concentration camps or more recently, over 300,000 bodies in mass graves, some children, in Saddam's Iraq. Americans do not do this. That is why we make the statement (and get so angry at idiots who make us look like liars) that we hold ourselves to a higher standard. We do.

To respond to the other questions you raised:

If we(americans) have higher standard then why:

1) is the amount of justice one receives proportional to how much money he/she has. Any high profile case serves as a perfect example of this.

That is not always true and you should not use highly-publicized celebrity criminal cases on TV as the basis for making such a broad indictment of our justice system, one of the best in the world but - being run by human beings - not a perfect system. It's still better than most. One of the problems is that on the whole, the sheer volume of criminal cases outrun the various local, state and federal court' ability to handle them and so, plea-bargains are made and 'pure' justice is not always done. In addition, the vast majority of crimes committed in America, as everywhere, are by poor people, obviously, and they cannot afford high-powered attorneys and instead, get inexperienced and/or overworked Public Defenders who hardly know their case. That can result in bad outcomes for the defendent but I believe that the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals are guilty, even when represented by Public Defenders with weak defenses.

2) Why do we pour millions of dollars into foreign countries to rebuild them when we have homeless people right here in America?

Foreign Aid is tiny portion of the total federal government budget in any one year. While some of the aid is military, most is humanitarian; food and medicine, etc. Not a bad thing for the richest nation on the planet to engage in and another reason why we talk about holding ourselves to a higher standard. As for the homeless, they are a tiny number (about 3 million in a nation of almost 300 million) and most are either drug or alcohol addicted or simply mentally incompetent. Some work at menial jobs but can't afford housing. The federal and state government spend millions every year on various aspects of homelessness and many private charities also help a lot of homeless people. The number of homeless in America has dropped substantially over the past 20 years but homeless advocacy groups tend to downplay that fact. In the final analysis, some homelessness cannot be helped by anyone because the homeless person needs to seek help and some do not want it. That noted, this country has many programs in place to help the homeless. Ending foreign aid would not help it one iota. Linking the two is a non sequitur.

3) Why do farmers destroy crops to create a loss and gain profits from that loss?

Because they have a very strong lobby in Congress that allows this madness to continue. In fairness, America feeds not only itself but a large part of the world every year. Truth is, we're just too productive and many farms should go out of business - but they don't. Kept alive on federal money long after they have ceased their rationale for existing.

4) Why is America allowed to have as many nukes as they want but will not allow any others to have them or we threaten to "disarm" them?

First: no one 'allows' us to possess nuclear weapons. The U.S. possesses what we feel we need for national defense. The difference is that America has had massive amounts of nuclear weapons and since August 1945, has never used them. We have long proven that we're responsible where nuclear weapons are concerned. Do you think Kim Jong Ill of North Korea is sane and responsible? I don't...and his country has a nuclear weapons program running right now. I'm not so comfortable with Pakistan and India having nukes, either. Ot Egypt or many other nations that now possess nuclear weapons. The point is that America has shown great restraint with our nuclear weapons while some other nations leaders are clearly untrustworthy and dangerous with the same weapons. Like a four-year-old running around the house with a loaded gun. Nothing may ever happen but if it did, people could die. With a dangerous 'leader' having nuclear weapons capability millions could die should they decide to launch a nuke...anywhere. That's too dangerous to ignore and we have a responsiblility to try and contain those weapons and keep shakey dictators (as in North Korea) from having them. It's simple common sense, not some sinister plot to disarm the world.

I can go on and on but that's just an example.
I believe America is the best country in the world and the mightiest but we are not without our flaws.

I thank you for your patriotism and agree that we have our 'flaws'. I doubt anyone ever said we didn't.

We are not "above" abusing prisoners. We are all human beings. How can anyone say that when Americans kill each other every day?
Maybe we should spend more time fixing our own problem rather than trying to fix everyone else's.

This nation does far more than most any other to help other people around the world, every day, both privately and via the government. Our foray into Iraq is a national security matter and we're doing a good job there in building up that nation into something that will make every Iraqi proud and offer respect and freedom to all of it's people, including formally oppressed women in a nation that fairly represents it's people. Nothing to apologize for. That some morons acted like brutes is a shame and has given us a black eye in some quarters but overall, America military people have performed exceptionally well in Iraq and have made me proud to be an American, today and every day.

[Stang_Girl617]

No one ever said America was flawless... can you name a country that is flawless... it doesnt exist, and if it did... we would all be there right now.

[69fastback]

The soldiers that treated the prisoner wrong should be punished. I was invovled in capturing quit a few iraq soldiers and sometimes it can turn into a bad situation, but there is no reason to ever strip them down naked like in those pics. There are quidelines that the army puts out on how to treat prisoners and use of force. As long as you follow them there will be no problems. The soldiers being punished didn't not follow proper procedure. I can't believe those idots took pics of it I mean how stupid are you to take pics of yourself doing criminal acts. I just hope they don't get punished more because of it being world wide news.

[carlos.elliott]

Nice to hear from someone who was there and have a idea of what is hapening there. I spent a year in Iraq and got to know allot of the people they like the US and thank us for what we do. We had iraq men working for us making 4 dollars a day for hard labor. This allowed them to make in one day what they made in a week working at the base I was stationed at before we came over. Can you imagine making 4 dollars a week and not being able to say anything because you would get killed. I still think the prisoners should have been treated with more respect but still as prisoners or war as they were mostly the ones against us.

[1989GT]

69fastback and carlos nailed it. I was up at Freedom lake (formerly known as Saddam's lake) for 3 days of R&R and I talked to a high school teacher who made 7 dollars every three months. At the time that wasn't enough to buy a carton of cigs which would cost you 10 dollars. Of course we came under mortar attack the first night, so much for R&R.
-Ryan

[82 GT]

Just think about this for a second before you say how nice those prisoners should be treated.
First of all... you don't how the **** is good or bad over there.
Second....most of those prisoners that you are feeling sorry for have most likely killed a fellow soldier of yours or quit possibly someone that was a friend of yours. Think about that.

I also believe that our military should be divided into two seperate parts. One for the heavy combat, air strikes etc...and the other part that's designed for peace keeping operations...like we are trying to do now and not really geared for.
You can't expect a man conditioned for combat and expect him to be friendly towards that same people he's trying to kill!!
Not to get off the subject, but another policy I think we should put into effect is this: The only people that should have guns in Iraq right now are U.S and allied soldiers. Anyone else with a weapon should be considered hostile.
A policy like that would keep a lot more troops alive.

[MidNiteBlu 5.0]

the problem with what you said 82 GT is that over 60% of those in prisons are actually innocent. they just may have been at the wrong place at the wrong time or they were "suspicious" It is not necessarily true that every prisoner over there has tried to kill an american, though im sure a few have

[carlos.elliott]

Hey 82 the last post is true in arerica you have to be proven guilty of a crime to be in prison. Over there during this time a lot of the people in there are suspected to be guilty. So there are allot of people that shuldn't be in there. I also know that the guards are like the rest of the military each have there own jobs to support the war. The guards jobs mostly were to guard they didn't go around arresting all these prisoners. I still state that they shouldn't be treated like roality but like a human. I think the US should treat them as we would want our prisoners treated. We could argure all day that they don't treat our prisoners properly and we don't. But everyone knows almost all wars are political and we need the support of other countries and our own citizens. The facts are this has hurt our relationship with the citizens and the countries helping us. They had started pulling out some countries already before I had left. I talked to the soilders from a few of the countries and they talked about this prisoner abuse in a very negitive way. Yes everyone says well we are the US and don't need any help but all the help we get saves our solders allot of time there.

[m1tanker]

I must applaud MR 5 0's long, but accurate reply. I am also a soldier in the army, full time Wisconsin Army Guard. We are currently mobilizing one of our infantry units for service in Iraq. The scandal at the Iraqi prison both sickend and infuriated me, both as a soldier and an American.

Just because other countries in the world operate that way, we don't. A small number of misguided and morally weak soldiers has effectively undermined much of the U.S. credibility and has caused significant stratigic damage to this country's fight on terrorism.

That being said, the U.S. military force will continue to do a damned good job, do the right things and finish the job and get home. Iraq will be better for it, its people will be better for it and the world will be safer for it.

I despise the media. Much of the continued backlash is directly related to the fact that the media continues to focus so much effort on this story and by doing so has significantly contributed to undermining the war effort. In essence they are bringing comfort and aid to the enemy's war effort. The soldiers and military leadership directly involved in the prison mess have been and will be punished appropriately by the military system. Let the system do its job and lets move on.

Tank

[82 GT]

Originally posted by carlos.elliott
I still state that they shouldn't be treated like roality but like a human. I think the US should treat them as we would want our prisoners treated. We could argure all day that they don't treat our prisoners properly and we don't..

I can see your point but even if I did view it your way it would be damn near impossible now ever since they cut that American civilian's head off.
I'm sure you can understand how that barbaric act infuriated most Americans. When I heard about that, the slightest respect I did have for Iraq is completely gone.

You know what though? We have our special forces over there doing "dirty deeds", right now, that 99% of us will never hear about.
It's just that I would feel better if I could hear some of those stories. Since America doesn't hear about these secret "dirty deeds" then we tend to believe that Iraq is getting away with some of this bullshit.

[Dr. Weir]

It's pretty sad when the truth has to come from a daily comic strip...

The first thing I thought when I heard and read about the abuse in Iraq was "That's it?". Let me tell you all something. What we do to prisoners in the US is worse than anything I have seen in the papers going on in Iraq.

Whoever said prisoners here have rights is so far off base it isn't even funny. Perhaps people like Martha Stewart, who are in federal country club prisons, have it like this. Try spending a little time in a State or County jail. I think you would see things a whole lot different. Stop believing what the lying liberal media tells you.

And, whoever stated you have to be convicted of something to be in jail here: Please! You need to have your facts in order before you make statements like that. There are PLENTY of people in jail here who have been convicted of nothing. I myself was in jail for 4 months, only becuase a judge said that is where I should be. I was never convicted of anything, since I never DID anything.

If our hearts should bleed, it should be for the cruel treatment of our own people.

[carlos.elliott]

sorry another inocent person wrongly stuffed in jail. I hear this every day. You had to have done something wrong to be there. You also would have to be alseep your whole stay to not see the rights you had. The size of your cell, The amount of food, the amount of light, fresh air is all regulated. So yes if you get to spend time in jail you have rights mabye not the ones you feel you deserve like to get off scott free or strippers and beer in jail but you had rights. I gurentee you didn't get beat in jail every day or laid in a pile on top of other men. This is what makes america great is our rights to be treated fairly (like everyone else in the same place). I will not sit and say there isn't anyone in jail that shouldn't be there but I talk to 100's of inmates everyday and they all say they did nothing wrong ok not true

[Dr. Weir]

Originally posted by carlos.elliott
sorry another inocent person wrongly stuffed in jail. I hear this every day. You had to have done something wrong to be there. You also would have to be alseep your whole stay to not see the rights you had. The size of your cell, The amount of food, the amount of light, fresh air is all regulated. So yes if you get to spend time in jail you have rights mabye not the ones you feel you deserve like to get off scott free or strippers and beer in jail but you had rights. I gurentee you didn't get beat in jail every day or laid in a pile on top of other men. This is what makes america great is our rights to be treated fairly (like everyone else in the same place). I will not sit and say there isn't anyone in jail that shouldn't be there but I talk to 100's of inmates everyday and they all say they did nothing wrong ok not true

Let me ask you something... What do you base your statements on. What you have seen on TV? What other people have told you?

It is interesting to me you can comment on something you have never been through. You only recite the same statements that I have seen on TV, and the news my whole life. This fabrication that the police and courts are never wrong, and that anyone who is arrested, and/or is in jail MUST be guilty of something.

The statement that someone "has" to be guitly of something to be in jail, has to be the most ignorant statement I have ever heard, and I hear it alot. Now that DNA testing is being accepted as evidence, how many "guilty" people have been proven innocent of crimes they were accused of? I suppose they are guilty of something too.

How many people here have had traffic tickets, and went to court? And how many people have had the police outright lie to the judge? Happens all the time. The police have NO PENALTY for lying. They do it all the time. And I am not aware of 1 case ever of a police officer being fired for lying.

I am going to make this very short, because if I told everything, this would be the longest post ever on this BBS. What happened to me was simple. I was married, my X wife was harming my child (2 at the time). I was going around to her freinds and family, told them I was going to divorce her, and asked them to help me get custody. I still have the written statements that some of them wrote. Next thing I know one day I am at home (on a sunday evening), my X wife is not at home, as usual, and next thing I know the door opens and 4 cops are standing in my living room. This one tall cop asks me for my ID. I always try to cooperate with the police, even though I hate them, so I comply with this. He writes down some stuff in his book, then asks me if my X-wife can take some stuff. I said "no, she can't take anything". Then they left. I never asked them what they wanted, although I just figured she was leaving (and had found out what I was doing) and wanted them there for some reason.

3 days later (I have not heard from my X wife at all) I am cooking dinner, and I get a knock at the door. I open the door and the same cop and another guy comes in. He tells me he has to take me down to the police station, and asked me if I have $50. I say no. He tells me to call someone and have them bring $50 to the station. I called my dad (who is about an hour away) and told him to come and bring $50. On the drive, the tall cop explains to me that I am under arrest for "domestic violence" and that it is all just BS and I will be out as soon as someone brings $50 for the bail. So they let me sit in the station after doing fingerprints and all that until my dad comes down there. When I leave, they give me this piece of paper from the court that says I cannot contact to my x-wife and make me sign it.

2 weeks later my phone rings, remember, I have not heard from my X wife. It is her. Although my Lawyer has told me not to speak to her, I like a fool do it anyhow (this would be the biggest mistake of my life). She tells me she is sorry for calling the police on me but she was scared I would take our daughter and bla bla bla (which I would have). She asks me if she can come home and all this. I told her no, that I was going through with the divorce. She got mad, so I told her not to call me back and hung up. 20 minutes later the police call me back, and tell me I am going to be arrested (call me and tell me ???) for calling her and threatening to kill her????? I told them I had the caller ID that showed she called, and "I RECORDED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION". They then said that it would be up to the judge what would happen (at this point I was being charged with assult and battery, forgot to mention that).

A few days later, I am sitting around the apartment watching TV, and my door is broken off the hinges. Next thing I know I am on the ground with a 9 pointed at my head. The cop who is sitting on my back asks me my name. When I tell him that, he asks me if I have $50,000 dollars for bail. I say (gun still at my head) "yea, I got that right over here, by the Rembrant". So then he tells me I am going to jail. I ask to see the warrant, which I am told "We don't have to show it to you". I then ask him what I am being held for, and he says "the judge didn't say. He just put out a warrant". I was never read my rights either. I was hancuffed, and drug (not walked) out of my apartment, in shorts, with no socks, in the middle of winter. On my way down, I notice my X-wife and her family are outside on the sidewalk watching me. I ask the cop what they are doing there. He told me to mind my own business. In the car, the same cop (not the tall one, who was cool) told me "Mark told us what you did to his sister. We are going to take care of you". In case you are wondering, Mark is my X-wife's brother, who is a county sherriff. When I get to the police station, I was hit several times by the cop. Whether or not you belive me, I don't care, it is the truth. Then I was thrown in a cell, with no blanket, left to sleep on a block of cement. I was there about a day. No food the entire time either.

Next day I am taken to court. I was drug in front of the judge who is handling the "assult" case. Mind you, I am in shorts, no shoes or socks, in the middle of winter, without a shower (ever wonder why people on trial look so bad, now you know!). I looked pretty bad. Then the judge asks me "why are you calling and threatining your wife". I told him "the constitution says I have a right to counsel, I want to talk to my lawyer". The judge said "Don't go quoting the constitution in my courtroom!". He asked me again, and I said "She called me.." he cut me off and said I was a liar and this and that and that he could tell I was gulity (what does that mean?). Then he starts asking me about my tattoos. Let me ask you this: What the hell does that have to do with anything!!!!!!! I told him that me having tattoos has nothing to do with anything. He told me to shut up and that I would held in jail until April 16 which is when my trial was for assult. I was in county jail for about the next 2 months or so...

I can go on and on forever, but there you go. To sum it up real quick, I was tried, and found guilty on NO evidence whatsoever other than my X-wifes word. That's all it takes to get convicted, is one witness saying you did it. And I suppose you think a witness can't lie? Forget I have everything on tape. That I can prove what I am saying is true, I couldn't use it, as I did it without her knowledge. Oh, and there were no marks on her either. How do you try and kill someone and leave no marks? She said I choked her and punched her and threw her down. I would think there would be some marks, don't you?

Oh, and I have a recording of her on tape, talking to a friend, admitting she lied, and did it to "get even" with me and make sure I did not get custody. Would you like me to digitize it so you can hear? Oh, I guess I made that up too, since I must have done something wrong!

Let me say something before someone says I am lying. Why would I come here and type all this? I have no motive, this was all 7 years ago and is long done. I gain nothing. In fact, you are all probably wondering now if I am in fact a beater of women. So again, if I did this, why not keep my mouth shut? I have a box at home, full of papers and stuff from my ordeal. This is for my daughter when she turns 18. I want her to know the truth about her mother and the lies she is being told about me. I can prove everything I say to her. I have the tapes, the papers, courtroom transcriptions, police reports, everything.

On to your second statement, about how nice and cushy our jails are. Try spending some time there. I don't think you would make it too long!

Let me start. I was denied food for 3 days (the crap they call food). I was beaten by guards at least 7 times I can think of for no reason. I was threatened with death by guards sever times. Several times i saw inmates stripped and humiliated (I assume most prison guards are homosexual based on the number of times they did this, and seemed to enjoy it). I saw them rub an imates face in his own vomit after he threw up, then made him sleep in it. I saw them beat several people for taking back (no freedom of speech in jail). I never talked back or was rude to any of the guards, I did as I was told. Didn't help, they enjoy pushing people around. I guess you think I am lying about all this too.... Well, believe what you want.

As far as regulations on jails, thats all nice and pretty. However, who is going to turn them in if they don't do what they are suposed to? You think anyone is going to believe the criminals? I have seen it firsthand. Call me a liar or whatever you want. I know what I saw. And it was very different than the rosy picture you paint. And what I have saw from Iraq isn't any worse than what I saw being done here.

Carlos: let me be clear about something. I have nothing against you. However, you do not have the facts straight. If you want to think our prisons are country clubs (and I am sure the ones that the rich go to are) then you are just wrong. I once believed as you. I thought everyone in jail deserved it. That jail was a free ride. I considered myself (and still do) a law and order conservative. However, what I saw changed that. Believe me or not. I can't make you believe me. But I hope, and this is not some BS line, that you never wind up in jail. You will find out that I am not joking. I don't wish that on anyone.



Humiliating people and beating them isn't going to "change" them. We don't seem to want to tolerate this in Iraq, so why do we tolerate it here?

Oh, here is my tattoo. Please tell me how this makes me a criminal.

[carlos.elliott]

I base my opionions on the fact that I work every day in a jail. I was in Iraq and watched allot of the arrest take place. Few of the ones I witnesed were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also stated there are cases of people being wrongly jailed and I feel allot of people are given sentences that are unfair. I don't give out the sentences. My job is to supervise the inmates while they are in our county jail. I want to also state I don't have a problem with inmates I get along with most of them beter than the other deputys. Most are there for minor stuff and are really nice guys. My whole statement is this there are allot or rules and regulations the jails are soposed to abide by. I also know there might be jails that don't do this. I am sorry if you were wrongly jailed but I wasn't arguing with you about that. I just feel that all people in any type of prison or jail should be treated with a certain level of respect. I don't think they should be as strict as the jails in the US are soposed to be. What I was saying is in the US someone can't be jailed because there brother is a suspected criminal and there they can be arrested for questioning to determine if they are too. I wish I could say the system is perfect but as long as we got people here and there who don't abide by the rules in the prison system there will be people who fall through the cracks. I am sorry if I sounded like a ass hole just wanted to state my opinion which is probably wrong but I stand by it and as far as your tattoo looks fine to me I didn't say if you had tattos you were a criminal. Sounds like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and you did say you did answer the phone. By the way what state are you in as the laws here might vary a little

[StangFlyer]

My only comment on this thread is that I know Dr. Weir personally. In fact, he lives 15 minutes from me and we have been good friends since high school. I can personally vouch for everything he said. His story is completely true. His x-wife and her brother, the police officer and his cop co-worker buddies, screwed him bad. Although he is a somewhat strong willed and an opinionated person (so what?), I have never seen one bad or violent or even dishonest bone in his body. He's one of the cooler people I know in life. Also, we are in Michigan, which has some of the strongest (worst) domestic violence laws in the country (i.e. if she says you did it... you are guilty until proven innocent for all intense purposes).

FYI: I have a great respect for law enforcement in general and believe the majority of those who do that job are honest and dedicated. However, in this case there definitely was a serious abuse of power and position for personal purposes by his x-wife's brother, and some others in the system.

[82 GT]

Originally posted by Dan McClain
My only comment on this thread is that I know Dr. Weir personally. In fact, he lives 15 minutes from me and we have been good friends since high school. I can personally vouch for everything he said. His story is completely true. His x-wife and her brother, the police officer and his cop co-worker buddies, screwed him bad. Although he is a somewhat strong willed and an opinionated person (so what?), I have never seen one bad or violent or even dishonest bone in his body. He's one of the cooler people I know in life. Also, we are in Michigan, which has some of the strongest (worst) domestic violence laws in the country (i.e. if she says you did it... you are guilty until proven innocent for all intense purposes).

F

I, myself, never had any doubts whatsoever about Dr. Weir's story. I believe it 100% and I don't even know the man.
I know we are getting off topic here, but I want to add my 2 cents on this matter.
Dr. Weir , your ex did that only so that you couldn't get custody of the kids when you filed for divorce. That was the whole purpose behind that stunt she pulled.
Domestic violence laws are not any better in Pa. In fact, I'm willing to bet they rank right up the with Michigan.
Let me tell you a quick story about my one friend and his now ex-wife.
One night they had a really bad argument. She got really pissed off and came after him with a knife from the kitchen!!
Not wanting to confront her or do anything stupid he ran out the door only in his underwear and came to my house at about 2am.
He told me he needed to borrow a pair of pants and shirt so he could go to the police and report her.
He went to the station, told his story and returned home with the officer.
His ex is one of those people who can suddenly get a nose bleed.
My friend and officer go into the house where she is crying and upset(all fake) and tells the officer he hit her causing her nose to bleed. The cop then turns to my friends and says "Since she's bleeding and you're not, I'm going to have to arrest you!"
He took him off to jail that night and he spent the next 24 hrs. there until his dad came and bailed him out.
Can you believe that crap!! He did go to court but I don't remember what happened there besides the fact he got screwed even more. This happened quite a number of years ago.
I honestly believe that women have way too much power anymore and some reforms are needed.
Women will claim the opposite but we all know that's just not true....right guys?

[Fox Body]

Originally posted by Dr. Weir


It's pretty sad when the truth has to come from a daily comic strip...

Ouch. Truth can hurt sometimes.

BTW, I don't disbelieve anything you said about your ordeal with the X. What I don't understand is why reciprocate action was not taken against her and the officials who treated you unlawfully. Maybe you tried and decided it wasn't worth it? I dunno.

[Mr 5 0]

Abusing prisoners, in an American jail or an Iraqi jail, by civilian guards or miliary guards is morally and legally wrong but, sadly, all too common, as Dr. Weir has clearly testified. His story is chilling and belies any comforting notions that: 'as long as you don't break any laws you have nothing to worry about from the police'. If only. I'll add that while Dr. Weir was clearly mistreated by the police and the courts, which is inexcusable, he was open enough to freely admit that he made a gigantic mistake in talking to his obviously vindictive wife - with a brother in local law enforcement - after being visited by the police and had he not done so, - maybe - his ordeal could have been avoided. Maybe not. At this late date neither he or any of us will ever know. I'm also quite sure others could add their own horror stories to his on this BBS.

I agree that the police and courts, who once ignored womens domestic abuse complaints or treated them as minor, have gone way too far in the opposite direction and now make otherwise decent men criminals and ruin their lives because a jealous or vindictive soon-to-be ex-wife cries and lies on cue to the police and the judge. It's not right and this abuse of men in divorce cases must be curbed. Not wanting to be married anymore, often for good reasons, shouldn't end up putting a man in jail and bankrupting him.

That stipulated, I maintain that the Iraqi prisoner abuses by American military personnel at Abu Ghraib prison have been wholly overblown by a (mostly) liberal media in order to inflict as much harm to the reputation of our military as possible with the additional goal of decreasing American citizens support for the occupation of Iraq and by association, the president and hs chances for re-election. In short: it's political. Humiliation, even male sexual humiliation by female soldiers is not 'torture' and these were not all innocent people brought in to the prison for nothing. There is a low-level war going on in Iraq and intelligence is sorely needed by the Coalition forces to find and eliminate the residual terrorists still trying to kill Americans and subvert the birth of a democratic Iraq. No, that excuses nothing illegal but it does put what happened in some sort of context, a context that has been missing in most of the media stories that continue to this day, even though the abuses happened over six months ago and have long since been stopped, investigated, the offenders charged and military trials scheduled with one accused soldier already sentenced to jail time.

I use to know the former Garrison Commander of the military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and I can tell you that he was a straight shooter who brooked no abuse of prisoners or any other illegal actions under his command. He's now a Sheriff in a bedroom community of a large midwestern city and even there, he runs a tight ship - but a clean one. Maybe he's the exception but most law enforcement people I've dealt with (not many, to be honest) have been O.K. and not sadistic manaics or Nazi wannabe's, although I know these kinds of people do exist in some of the larger police departments. Police work is necessarily negative in nature and a tough job that's not for everyone, obviously. I assume being a prison guard is worse. I can't imagine being locked in with a bunch of criminals day after day, no matter how much it paid. With those observations, I'll leave the thread and stand by my previous comments, while thanking others for theirs.

[bigred90gt]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0



That is not always true and you should not use highly-publicized celebrity criminal cases on TV as the basis for making such a broad indictment of our justice system, one of the best in the world but - being run by human beings - not a perfect system. It's still better than most. One of the problems is that on the whole, the sheer volume of criminal cases outrun the various local, state and federal court' ability to handle them and so, plea-bargains are made and 'pure' justice is not always done. In addition, the vast majority of crimes committed in America, as everywhere, are by poor people, obviously, and they cannot afford high-powered attorneys and instead, get inexperienced and/or overworked Public Defenders who hardly know their case. That can result in bad outcomes for the defendent but I believe that the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals are guilty, even when represented by Public Defenders with weak defenses.

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While I agree that it is not ALWAYS true, it is mostly true. More often than not, money plays the biggest part of any case. I have a friend who was charged (I cant remember the actual charges brought against him) for running over his x-girlfriend (she didnt die, and he is a dumbass for doing it). While in court, throughout various stages of his trial, he spent about $12k trying to stay out of jail. That money drastically reduced his sentence to 1 year (he did 6 months cause of 2 for 1 in county here). If he had another $1k to spend at the time of the trial, he would have never spent a day in jail.

As far as being in Iraq to fight terrorism, that is all fine and dandy, AFTER we eliminate the people who came here and crashed our planes into the towers and the pentagon. I say we should have gone into Afghanistan with the force and intention that we went into Iraq with, as long as you want to use the war onterror as your justification for the Iraq war. Saddam has never came here, and killed thousands of citizens, on our land. He didnt blow up our ebassies. He didnt put a hole in the side of the USS Cole. Guess who did, the towlie who is still living in the mountains of Afghanistan. I say we should have eliminated the real threat to our freedom.

As far as the abuse goes, boo freakin hoo. Cry me a freakin river man. Aside from the guy with the electrodes on his hands (puttin god only knows how many volts into him) that the "abuse" is well overplayed. Forcing them to listen to Metallica and watch puppets. Ya, ounds real painful. Stripping them down and humiliating them, ooh, real abusive there. If those actions provided information that was otherwise un-attainable (without beating them to near death) then so be it. Get over it and move on. Dont prosecute the soldiers for using non-violent methods of getting information, applaud them. We could have beaten their fingers, toes, and other body parts with sledge hammers till they opened their mouths, but we didnt. We instead subjected them to music, and naked men. Ouch.

[82 GT]

I'm curious to see what Japan thinks of this prisoner "abuse" after
how they abused American and Phillipean soldiers during WWII
Anyone that know their history, knows what kind of shit they pulled with POW's.