Vin Diesel

[jj_jonathon]

Originally posted by StreetPony
any homosexual knows......and i know because of my personal experiences with my brother. ask _any_ homosexual if it is a choice and show me _one_ that says he "chose" to be gay. they all say they were born gay....are they all liars?

...you aren't gay...so you can't rely on what your brother tells you or implies...you cant know if one is born gay if you arent....do you think you were born heterosexual? i dont think so...why was there a larger percentage of homosexuals back when it was acceptable then? hundreds of years ago when it was a preferred lifestyle for so many...these men wouldnt say they were born gay, simply that they prefer men...explain to me why today's society tends not to find larger women attractive? they used to be, because society made them attractive....now we all search for that supermodel look....so anyone who happens to like the look of a larger woman should be considered "born into it" as well? because you can't say that just one sexual preference could born unto (not that you did)....so if we are all born into lives and make small decisions along the way, then how can you be an atheist?...shouldn't you believe that there is no fate destined upon people?

and i never said i know your brother better than you do...but as a person you need to be able to accept the fact that no matter what your brother thinks he feels or knows, its all about his surroundings...children in rundown neighborhoods tend to be punks, children from rish neighborhoods tend to be stuck up, children from religious homes will tend to accpect their parents beliefs and questions anyone elses because you trust your parents, children from homes with an abusive parent tend to not voice themselves very well....of course every scenario has exceptions where special circumstances have arisen at one point or another that can reshape a person beyond the scope of the house...your brother could be considered that...

[Shelby428cj]

Originally posted by Dark_5.0
Hey, nice to see yall are having a good ol' boy rally. Can I play.

Fudge packer
Homo
Fag Fagget
pillow biter
fairy
rump ranger
butt pirate
turd burgalar
*** bandit
dick jockey
Damn I think I am all out of faggot slurs



Since the word Fag is acceptable lingo "since presumably none of them are present"

YOU FORGOT the best one......RICE BURNER!!!!!

I say anything goes,

YEEHAW!!!

[StreetPony]

Originally posted by jj_jonathon
you can't rely on what your brother tells you or implies

especially when what he tells me directly parallels what i already knew. again, i should have realized that you would know him better than i.


why was there a larger percentage of homosexuals back when it was acceptable then? hundreds of years ago when it was a preferred lifestyle for so many

lol......there are just as many today, only now they have to hide from people who ridicule them.


...these men wouldnt say they were born gay, simply that they prefer men

not only can you speak for my brother, not only can you speak for gays everywhere, now you can speak for men who have been dead for centuries?


...explain to me why today's society tends not to find larger women attractive? they used to be, because society made them attractive....now we all search for that supermodel look

lol.....you cant possibly be trying to compare a choice in fads with core sexual preference. im just not into big women but i would prefer a 600 pound woman to the best looking man you could find. sorry, your theorys just dont hold up.


if we are all born into lives and make small decisions along the way, then how can you be an atheist?...shouldn't you believe that there is no fate destined upon people?

what? i am born with 2 legs but that does not mean it is my "fate". you are confusing "fate" with human nature. as an athiest i dont believe in fate or fairy tales but that has nothing to do with my natural attraction for women.


and i never said i know your brother better than you do

yes, you did. you say i am wrong, that he was not born gay, and that he is gay because he chooses to be. that to me says you know him better than i. it also implies he is lying to me about being born gay.


children in rundown neighborhoods tend to be punks, children from rish neighborhoods tend to be stuck up, children from religious homes will tend to accpect their parents beliefs and questions anyone elses because you trust your parents, children from homes with an abusive parent tend to not voice themselves very well

but that has nothing to do with sexual attraction. your examples are based in behavior. homosexuality is a natural tendency for some.

anyway......<sigh>......i conceed to your vast knowledge.

[The Deuce]

i find it appauling that you would attempt to associate nambla with typical homosexuals. it is all too typical of the southern bible belt propoganda machine.

Street Pony, isn't North Carolina SOUTH of Conneticut? I guess you must be confused about some georgraphy. Having North in the name of your state doesn't mean that everything else is South of it.

Is Vin Diesel gay? Who cares? Why do the big discussion just because your brother is? My old man is an A**hole. Was he born that way? Evidence says yes.(he always has been one, and showed the tendancy at a young age) Does that mean there is an a*hole gene? Its not his fault.

Get over it. Was just a comment, made in fun. And quit picking on Belle before you get beat down. Won't be a hate crime, even though it will be BECAUSE you are being a jerk.

[Dark_5.0]

Just let it go guys. Your not gonna change the world.

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by induction
Pic too big, working on it

Email it to me!

pkrwuds@pacbell.net



Take care,
~Chris

[StreetPony]

Originally posted by The Deuce
Street Pony, isn't North Carolina SOUTH of Conneticut?

yup. and north carolina sucks too.

And quit picking on Belle before you get beat down. Won't be a hate crime, even though it will be BECAUSE you are being a jerk.

lol.....dont bother trying to be an online superstar with me. i understand you want brownie points from her by pretending to rush to her aid but she is quite capable of handling herself just fine without your pitiful rescue attempt.

Originally posted by Mr 5 0
Nathan:


Yes, I'm a Christian, and this seems to instantly enrage many homosexuals and atheists, but that doesn't change facts or realities and your smarmy attempt to invalidate anything I may state about homosexuality as being 'hate speech' is a fraud. This is a favorite tactic of the homo lobby. When an unpleasant fact arises, just scream 'HATE!' loudly and shout down the opponent. You learned well. Attacking a mans faith is another tactic I see you use with aplomb. You even have a friend here who joins in the fun.

dude i'm a atheist and many of my friends are too. also i have many religious friends of many different religions and we all get along great. i have been torn in to by SOME not all religious folks because i'm atheist but hey thats there opinion and they can say all they want about it. i just nod my head and agree with them that they may be right, but i must learn on my know what the answers in life are. the only time people freak out about others beliefs or opinions is when they are closed minded. the only time that i have ever seen anyone bother another is when one side starts calling down ones beliefs of religion or atheistism. and before anyone says that i am intolerant i say this is what i believe --'i may not agree with what you say or believe in, but i will defend to my death your right to say it.'. if you don't like it i'm sorry to have bothered you, but thats life and you will hear many more things you don't like.

murray

[jj_jonathon]

Originally posted by StreetPony

especially when what he tells me directly parallels what i already knew. again, i should have realized that you would know him better than i.

of course you would share most of the same views, you are brothers...and im not saying i know your brother better than you do...find where i actually said that i know your brother better than you...just because your brother tells you something, doesnt make it true...trust me on this one...i as well do have 2 close brothers....and they can sincerely believe as much as they want, but sometimesthey are still not right...doesnt mean i probably wouldnt back them up though...


lol......there are just as many today, only now they have to hide from people who ridicule them.

thats true that they have to, but i was accounting for those estimated numbers...


not only can you speak for my brother, not only can you speak for gays everywhere, now you can speak for men who have been dead for centuries?

im speaking on my behalf of what i believe...ive studied history and french history...and the way these people thought was obviously different from today...they would not be "blaming or excusing" their habits, merely saying that they prefer it...nowadays homosexuality is frowned upon so they need to change their "blaming or excusing" on something beyond their control to try and limit the amount of reaction to them...


lol.....you cant possibly be trying to compare a choice in fads with core sexual preference. im just not into big women but i would prefer a 600 pound woman to the best looking man you could find. sorry, your theorys just dont hold up.

its not a fad, its a sexual preference...the majority prefers a slimmer woman to a larger woman, and a larger woman to a man (well put btw)


what? i am born with 2 legs but that does not mean it is my "fate". you are confusing "fate" with human nature.

how can you actually sit there and compare apples with oranges? when you are born and are homosexual you dont have a physical "H" imprinted on your forehead (if you are born homosexual)..of course you are going to have two legs when you are born, but you are not definetly going to enjoy the company of men, of course you will have two eyes when you are born, but you are not definetly going to enjoy the game of croquet...a baby doesnt understand croquet...it will chew on the mallet....so a baby doesnt understand sexual preference...how are you born with something and dont understand it? that should mean that you have developed that skill or learned/experienced something new that you like....i cant remember before the age of 6, most dont remember past 4....because most human beings arent developed enough to remember at that age....te only things they remember are things that have been constantly pressed on by his/her parents...repetition is the only way to make a baby learn something, its like teaching a dog a trick...they arent as smart as us...so i dont understand how if babies are basically unintelligent how they could realize that they were just born into a world where they like males more than females? the only things that affect you when you are young are diseases...you can be born with downs syndrome....not with homosexual tendencies....


yes, you did. you say i am wrong, that he was not born gay, and that he is gay because he chooses to be. that to me says you know him better than i. it also implies he is lying to me about being born gay.

that doesnt mean i know what his favorite color is, etc...im using your brother as a generality...i never said he was lying or that he chose to be homosexual..he may believe it with a passion taht he was born gay because he always remembers liking men...but memories get clogged as you get older...you remember less and less back, so he could be confused and both of you could have forgetten something, or just convinced yourselves of it years ago...youd be surprised what people can lock away and actually make themselves forget in stressful situations, and especially if you have served in the military and seen horrific scenes like you discussed earlier, then how can you be 100% sure about your childhood when you are trying to block out mental pictures that get in the way?


but that has nothing to do with sexual attraction. your examples are based in behavior. homosexuality is a natural tendency for some.

and hating people can be a natural tendency for some, look at those children over in the middle east who absolutely hate the united states...they think they were born to hate us....

but sexual activity is a behavior....its all in the same category, you cannot discuss homosexuality as being something you are born into without saying that whose who practice beastiality (as gross as THAT is) werent born into that preference....

[blue00gt]

Have to add my 2 cents here (****, might as well add to my post count since there are so many posts here The way I see it, those fag comments were meant in the same way that a comedian would mean them in a stand-up routine. So are you going to get all worked up every time you see a comedian make fun of stump jumpers on TV, StreetPony? I'd say save your energy for the folks that actually are hatemongers. I'm half Japanese but I don't go telling folks here that they are bigots because they use the word Jap referring to cars, because I know it's not their intent to insult or hurt me.

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by blue00gt
I'm half Japanese but I don't go telling folks here that they are bigots because they use the word Jap referring to cars, because I know it's not their intent to insult or hurt me.

Yeah it is.

Take care,
~Chris

[The Deuce]

Originally posted by StreetPony

lol.....dont bother trying to be an online superstar with me. i understand you want brownie points from her by pretending to rush to her aid but she is quite capable of handling herself just fine without your pitiful rescue attempt.

Brownie points? Umm, yeah that's what I'm looking for.

Hey, I think its time to step it up a notch.

StreetPony:


Now that's offensive.

[StreetPony]

Originally posted by PKRWUD
Yeah it is.

lol......_you_ are just to tough! :-)

[StreetPony]

Originally posted by The Deuce
Now that's offensive.

and real mature.

[Dark_5.0]

Damn Duece, I am offended by your lack of originality. That pic is old as hell.

Now here is a good one

[The Deuce]

My sincerest apologies Dark. Your pic is quite choice. Why didn't we think of this four pages ago?

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by Dark_5.0
Damn Duece, I am offended by your lack of originality. That pic is old as hell.

Now here is a good one

LOVE the license plate on that Buick!!! Too cool!



Take care,
~Chris

thats a good one dark 5.0

[Dark_5.0]

[Mr 5 0]

Nathan:

while i use my personal experience as a source of firsthand data, my stance against intolerance is consistent with any group of oppressed people.

Then your brother's homosexuality has no part in your strong objection to the word 'fag'? I rather doubt that's true, but I'll accept it just to move along here.

the extremists you see trying to cram their agenda down your throat are a small minority indeed.

Unfortunately for all those shy homosexuals, the extremists seem to represent the homosexual 'community' to many straight folks. They really should tell them to cool it. Wonder why they don't?

i choose to be ahthiest

Which was instantly apparent when you went ballistic about my being 'religious', even though I never mentioned religion, morality or anything connected to Christianity. You give it away, Nathan. I've seen this before.

i know its easy to dismiss what i have said to you so easily but im curious......so just how far _can_ you go without it being hate? where do you draw the line?

Nathan, you used the word 'hate', not I. I simply pointed out that this is a common tactic used by homosexuals to kill any discussions that are negative toward them. It's a debate-killer and you must be aware of that. I doubt this is the first time you've engaged in this type of discussion, on the net or in person.

Ridicule through the use of some otherwise tame lable such as 'fag' is certainly not 'hate'. That homosexuals choose to call it that does not make it so. I do not like being called intolerant but because you call me that does not render your judgement as actual truth, it's just your opinion.

True 'hate', to me, is wanting someone dead, which is why the homosexual's overuse of the word has rendered it almost meaningless when a tame little word like 'fag' is portrayed as 'hate'. No sensible person is buying that concept. It's simply overkill. Worked the first few thousand times, but now no one but over-sensitive homosexuals and their advocates see it that way. Oh, and the media, of course. To them, anything remotely negative aimed at a homosexual is also considered 'hate'. BS in a bucket.

show me anywhere i have attacked your faith???? i question any scientific study thats based in religious doctrine, but thats not attacking your faith.

Rather coy of you - but I'll play. When you sneeringly dismiss my opinions of homosexuality with statements such as: i seriously doubt you know anything about homosexuals other than what theyve told you to think and believe in church....... then you attempt to claim that my opinions come from what is, in your opinion, ignorance - church teaching - and so, you attack my faith, but never mind. In the interest of brevity and eventually concluding this discussion, I'll accept your premise that you never actually attacked my faith...just derided it's teachings and my knowledge of homosexuality. How's that?

i ask you to show me where i have been a hypocrite, or retract that statement.

You base your entire argument on the position that the use of the word 'fag' is 'intolerant' yet when others attempt to defend it as a legitimate (negative) opinion, you call it 'hate speech' and dismiss the defense out of hand, based on your personal judgement.

That's intolerance for others POV and yet - you proclaim your tolerance! You make judgements about who is 'oppressed' (homos) and then you make a judgement about what is 'hate speech' (fag) and from there you take it upon yourself to use your personal judgements to criticize and lecture us about 'tolerance'. That's hypocrisy.

There will be no retractions. You're as intolerant of folks who occasionally make some mild ridicule of homosexuality as we are of those who may practice it while posing as macho. That's hypocrisy on stilts - whether you accept it or not. Your assertations of sensitivity, decency and whatever other attributes you awarded yourself are your opinion and not shared by all, Nathan. Good intentions don't count here in the real world.

<sigh>....please show me any hysteria or angry rants. please back up your statment with a firm example of what you claim. i have been just as calm and polite as you have been

Please stop sighing, Nathan. Try to stay with us here. Your whole post was one long rant, but, to be fair, so are mine. Hysteria is when you take a little word like 'fag' and turn it into an long-winded 'issue' about so-called tolerance. That's hysteria....much ado about very little.

you claim to have studied homosexuality so i am simply asking for an example of your courseware. if you cant quote an example of your courseware thats fine but dont attempt to turn it into something else to side track my request. it is my _belief_ based upon your statements that you have no experience with impartial, scientific data by which to study homosexuality. surely you dont believe that religious doctrine would be impartial on a topic such as homosexuality?

Quote:i find it appauling that you would attempt to associate nambla with typical homosexuals. it is all too typical of the southern bible belt propoganda machine.

The 'bible belt propaganda machine'? Would that be anything like the homosexual propaganda machine that always denies anything to do with NAMBLA while they never denounce them forcefully? Just wondering.

Your assumption that university 'studies' are totally impartial is mistaken. The fact that you constantly refer to them and smugly accord them total impartiality is your choice but not a proof of anything but that you believe what you want to believe and use other's like-minded 'studies' to bolster your belief. It's circular but you already know that so let's move on, shall we?

tolerance is a two way street but there is no such thing as free speech without responsibility!

A few people calling a 'suspected' homosexual man who has generally portrayed tough-guys, as Vin Diesel has, a 'fag' is not irresponsible. This isn't a national TV show or a newspaper, Nathan. It's simply a Mustang messageboard, nothing more. I seriously doubt 'ol Vin would care much what he was called here.

i have asked for proof (indirectly through requesting your courseware) that you have studied homosexuality but thats not the same thing. please remain on track here.

I'm quite on track and that is what seems to frustrate you.

I didn't take any university courses on homosexuality and my brother isn't a homosexual. That you have and yours is does not impart some sort of superior knowledge to you on the subject. We're making generalizations here, Nathan. You assume way too much. I've read much literature on the subject (no, not in those much-derided church publications) and I have a reasonable understanding of the subject of homosexuality. Having a course credit or two in a very ambiguous field of study doesn't accord you the 'expert' status that you seem to award yourself by virtue of the fact that you constantly refer to these studies. Your brother's homosexuality may actually color your perceptions of what's 'hate speech' and what's simple joking at another's expense, which is human nature, like it or not.

lol.....man on man is _quite_ natural for homosexuals. they get turned on by other men. it isnt a "choice", its the way they are. could you chose to be turned on about anything that didnt naturally turn you on? i think not.

Then pedophiles 'can't help' being attracted to children, either? Especially the homosexuals? Hmmmm. Sure we want to go there, Nathan? Where is that elusive 'gay gene' anyway? lol.

<sigh>....of course you do! but having an opinion is not the same thing as expressing it irresponsibly. as i asked another, would it be ok for the kkk to ralley in front of 1st graders? would that be simply a matter of free speech?

This discussion seems to tire you out Nathan with all that sighing. Maybe you need a nap.

Equating the KKK holding a rally 'in front of 1st graders' to calling a suspected homosexual a 'fag' on an internet Mustang messageboard is quite a stretch, Nathan, even for you. Try again. Never mind, don't, it's a lame argument. I love the way 'Nazi's' are always brought in these conversations in some form. I thought we had moved on to the 'Taliban' when smearing people these days. Keep up, Nathan.

i strongly disagree with you. it (fag) is a derrogatory term used to hurt a socially oppressed group of people. it is indeed one in the same.... the church will teach you its different because homosexuals are "sinners" but thanks to a separation of church and state, as citizens of this country we arent governed by religious doctrine.

Well, now. "A socially oppressed group of people"? Is this an attempt at humor? What a crock, Nathan and you should know it. Who do you think you're discussing this with, a junior-high school kid? Homosexuals are far, far from 'oppressed'. They have laws protecting them from every possible form of discrimination possible and they are quick to avail themselves of those laws as they have a right to do.

The median income of homosexual men is usually quite high. They are 'out' everywhere you look, especially in the media (TV, movies, music). Homosexuals are oppressed? Tell that to a black person sitting in a ghetto. Using 'oppressed' when referring to homosexuals is an insult to those here and elsewher who are truly oppressed.

That's simply your skewed view, based on gay propaganda and your sympathy for your brother's homosexuality talking... or sheer ignorance. Hopefully, the former. Dragging in the church views on homosexuality is a straw man that you knock down quite well. (clap clap). I've never mentioned the church (what church, anyway?) or even touched on the morality issue so why do you keep wanting to go there? So you can attack it? Don't bother. While I have moral views on the subject, they are not relevant here, as you well know, so please stop trying to inject them into the discussion. It's cheesy.

many blacks regularly refer to one another as "******". that doesnt make it right for you or me to use that same word in a derrogatory manner.

Blacks who use the 'N-word' to each other but object to a non-black using it are galloping hypocrites, as are homosexuals that throw all the words for 'gay' around between themselves but want to file a lawsuit if a straight person uses it. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-C-Y Nathan, pure and simple. You can't have it both ways, even though many try.

yes. since this thread has begun i have heard from a handful of homosexuals. i havent quoted anything because the "email" excuse is a weak one but ill mention it now since you asked directly.

they dont want to be ridiculed further in a forum where the forum moderator has already publically stated that ridicule is ok and acceptable. their privacy is more important than an internet message board so they say nothing. i can understand why.

Are they Mustang Works members? If so, I would appreciate hearing from them via a PM or e-mail. Then, I can not only validate your claim but respond to the complaints, if there are any. If they are non-members giving you 'moral' support, that doesn't count for much with me. Like-minded people naturally support each other.

im a bit taken back by your statements (particularly since as a moderator you are looked at as the voice of reason), but im perfectly calm.

Good, and yes, I am a voice of reason but not everyone likes my reasoning.

dude......you think ive "attacked" you? thats being a bit dramatic is it not? should i just agree with everything so that none of you are called to task when you say something i disagree with?

Right back at you...dude. My disagreements with your philosophy regarding the use of words are as valid as your disagreements with me. It's form that matters. You've given as much as you've received and have no basis for any claims to being silenced. Not that you would, of course. Your 'calling me to task' is intellectually valid and I'm responding to you as specifically as I can. I could have just told you to lighten up and get over it, but I'm taking the time and effort to give you a complete reply and while I'm at it, challenge many of your assumptions and empty allegations in the process, something you're probably not used to hearing. You know, this may actually be good for you Nathan. Maybe you'll learn something.

where have i called you any names? where have i called ANYONE "names"?

'Intolerant' comes to mind.

what does being gay have to do with being tough? ... the assumption and belief that homosexual males are all feminine is a clear demonstration of the overall level of ignorance concerning them.

Then someone should tell all the millions of homosexuals doing the high voice, feminine gestures and generally acting like girls in men's clothing (and sometimes in girls clothing) to knock it off. That guy who plays 'gay' on the TV show 'Will & Grace' should be told that he doesn't represent homosexuals and he's ignorant. I wonder how he gets away with it? You would think that the homosexual organizations would be all over this by now. All I hear is silence. Maybe that's because they approve of the portrayal he presents? Think about that a moment before calling everyone who sees 'gay people' as men acting effeminate, 'ignorant', no matter how many push-ups they can do in the gym.

To attempt to claim that the majority of homosexual men are big, tough, macho types simply flies in the face of almost everyones actual experience with homosexuals. Your flawed perceptions of homos as 'Just like us in every way - except who they love' is right out of the homosexual debating handbook (if there was such a thing). I've seen it before and it's a lame argument because it clashes with everyday reality.

I never considered this debate to be a flame war and in fact im quite impressed that no one has accused me (yet) of being an in the closet gay myself with a hidden agenda. we have core differences but id still shake your hand and say "nice to meet you".

And I'm quite impressed that you haven't accused me of being a 'latent' homosexual. Good for both of us.

Yes, we certainly do have core differences but I hold no animus toward you for any disagreement. That said, I don't know where else to go with this thread, Nathan.

I don't have time to continually debate the same issue over and over and deconstructing each others posts is interesting but ultimately gets rather boring.

Mustang Works maintains a high level of quality and has for the seven years it's been on the web. We have a (deserved) good reputation. That we allow 'fag' and a few other words to be used about homosexuals is a fact and while we don't allow heavy profanity, racism or personal attacks, everyone is offended by something and we have to draw lines on both sides; both for and against.

Some here believe we're way too restrictive on what we allow - so you simply can't please everyone. Obviously, we didn't please you. I'm sorry if the use of a few words that characterize homosexuals in a somewhat negative way annoys or surprises you but we will not change the policy and while it's been an interesting discussion, it's getting really old. I suggest we both retire from the debate - but in order to not be accused of being dictatorial I'll leave the thread open awhile for any final words you may wish to add, but please, let's not continue the same discussion. Been there, done that.

If you wish to make a final statement and have it uncontested, as long as it's civil and not personal, it will stand unanswered by me (I cannot vouch for other members).

Beyond that, I have nothing more to add, Nathan.

Nice meeting you, too. Drop by again sometime, hopefully under friendiler or at least less intense circumstances.