Life

[KiltedBanshees93GT]

Well, normally I stay out of debates, but its been a while so what the heck
*Please understand that I take none of this personally, nor is it ment personally, but in the spirit of debate and learning only*
As to the question of life on other planets in the universe: Absolutly. Statistically, its inevitable. Also, you have to apply the correct definition of "life" which as was noted earlier was the ability to grow, reproduce, (and some might add have a survival instinct). That leaves the field open for anything from single cell organisims to sentients.
Now as to why it hasent flown in and landed on the white house lawn: If you were advanced enough to travel the stars, would you really want to come to the home planet of "The Jerry Springer show"?
As to the other theological questions, I AM the agnostic that your mother warned you about<g>
My framework of "spiritual" belief is based in science, with a little intuition mixed in, a bit of practicality,and a dash of gut feeling.
I believe in the spirit/soul, its energy we have not been able to quantify. So is all matter. (Matter is just energy slowed down to a measurable state) Energy cannot be destroyed, just transformed. Therefor, that part of us, the thing that makes us sentient doesent "end" or dissolve or go away at death. it is merely "disbersed" or transformed to a higher frequency.
As to what this is like to the recently dead soul, I have no firm idea, but it may depend on what that person believed. (Making heaven and hell a self fulfilling prophecy)

As to God: I dont believe that there is a humaniod figure watching over the universe, like Zeus on olympus, waiting for folks to slip up, etc.
Personally, I think that if there is any type of sentient force in the universe that meets the requirements of "godhood" it wouldnt care less what were doing. It would be like us worrying about what a single atom composing a single molicule in a single blood cell was doing.

As to Holy books across the board, I think its a case of blind men and elephants. The big drawback to them, especially monotheistic ones, are that they tend to promote an "us vs them/I'm right, your wrong" mentality amongst the followers, and by nature are perfectly suited for gaining and maintaining control over large groups of people.
Even the best of intentions can be, over time perverted, and the true nature lost.
A classic example of this would be the KJV. Lets think about that for a sec, this is the King James Version of the bible. It is a fact that when James comissioned a "retranslation" of the bible from (I believe latin) some of the scripture was changed.
The line "Suffer not a witch to live" is famous ,but wrong. The original word ment "poisioner" or corruptor. Meaning someone who used power to do evil. It was changed to cover any type of "Pagan", since James was having a bit of trouble at the time with the Heathens who werent keen on his being their king.
The Catholic church co-opted Mithrinism [sp?] and most of their symbology and holidays whole to gain more control of conquered lands.
Anyway, \rant, enough for right now
Some quotes I'd like to refer to before I go.
Mr 5.0:
[The Christian belief is that God orchestrated the creation of the universe. We cannot know the exact process involved as the bible only tells us that God 'declared' the 'heavens' into being. That may have been accomplished instantly but it could have taken 10 billion years.]

Its refreshing to see a christion that recognizes that point.

bo55:
dont take life to seriously................... you'll never get out alive
AMEN, and remember, "On a long enough timeline everyones survival rate drops to zero".

bigredgt:
I believe that when we die, we just continue to go about our daily lives , not realizing we are dead. Why do you think people see ghosts doing ordinary, everyday activities, as though they are still alive. As far as they know, they are.

Personally I think that most ghosts are just "echos" of the energy they had when they were alive, hence why they keep doing to same thing over and over. A true ghost (as opposed to apprition) are those rare ones that are seen to react to the current world/ do different things.

Rbatson:
To think there isn't life on another planet just goes to show how humans are natured to feel self important. Its rediculous!

We are. I guess it started as a survival trait. Then it became a security blanket.

Mr 5.0
As a fundamentalist Christian, I cannot speak to Catholic doctrine or history except that I reject most of what I know of it, including the manipulation of scripture in centuries past.

The books Bigwhitecobra was referring to are called the Gnostic gospels. An interesting read. They cover the rest of Jesus' life.

Fox body:
I believe in God as well and that He created everything in the universe and that He has always been. Hard to fathom. I also believe that people have created their own "gods". For every true thing, there is a counterfeit. However, those gods are only figments of imaginations and meaningless idols.
See us vs them mentality

bigwhitecobra
I have no idea as to what makes one man want to have sex with another. I think it's best to forget this part and move on, as long as we realize that even in the church there is MAJOR homosexual activity, involving the Priests. If they feared hell as the Bible states it, you'd think that would be enough to deter them, again just guessing here.

That would be assuming that the believed what they professed, instead of using it as a control device.

Fox Body:
This is not fantasy, it is absolute reality.

According to a 2000+ year old book, whos various authors are not concretely identified, that has gone through several alterations. There are several other 2+k year old books out there that claim the same thing.
Whos right?
Reality is a very subjective thing.

Mr 5.0:
I find it interesting that while we take history about the great names and deeds of the ancient past almost without question, so many find the bible, one of the greatest books ever written that has survived many attempts to ban it, destroy it and condemn it for two thousand years, 'questionable' because it was written by human beings.

The difference is that most of us are not willing to stake ours and/or others lives on historical fact. "relegious fact" tends to get those that dont believe it killed by those who do. Hence why relegious doctrine should be scrutinized a bit more.

And a quote about humanity in general:
"Nobodys perfect. (Well there was this one guy, but we killed him. )"

Anyway folks, thats it for me right now,

J

"Boy, you're just pissin' everybody off today!"---MIB

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Ok, that sounds good in theory. The problem with that is if I wrote the Bible and didn't want anyone to dispute it, I'd just say it was the word of God. How can you argue with God? How can we prove or disprove what someone wrote thousands of years ago?

We can't. All we can do is look at human nature and guess. I hate to use that word, but that's what it is. Guessing. Some call it faith, whatever the word, the end is the same........you'll find out when you die. Live your life as best you can, enjoy your life, and do the best you can.

You are confusing what you call 'guessing' with real faith, which I am beginning to doubt that you fully comprehend. My point is that if you wish to buy into the atheist's position that the bible is just a bunch of nice words written by mere men trying to 'establish a religion' (or whatever) then Christians are all fools and have been for 2,000 years, accepting a pack of lies as the Word of God. I don't think so. How about we put aside the atheist position and look at scripture from the other side: the Christian view. The Bible was put together over the years by men with the inspiration and guidance of God. Is Almighty God, the Creator, not able to do this? Is He not able to protect His Word from lies and distortions for the 2,000 years it's existed? Is God not able to keep the bible from becoming extinct - as many governments and men have tried to do to it over the centuries? Of course he can! If you profess God and Christ you came to your decision based on what is in the bible, where Christianity has it's basis, as God intended. If you then say: "Yes, but maybe the bible isn't really the 'Word of God' after all" (as atheists do) then you have just undercut your own faith, whether you think so or not. You are saying that the basis for what you claim to believe is probably flawed, not true and a tool of those who wanted to fool people. That makes no sense to me, but have it your way. It should be noted that all but one of the original Disciples - not counting Judas, who committed suicide - were killed in brutal ways by the authorities of the time). Most of the authors of the bible were murdered. They died for what the believed, as have many, many other Christians over the past 2,000 years. They did not die for a lie, especially the Twelve Apostles who lived with Jesus for three years and saw everything He did and were taught by Him. Yes, they all fled when He was arrested but following the Resurrection they went on to serve Him and expand His kingdom until they were killed. From the day Jesus appeared on earth as an infant, He began to change the world. The bible records that and expounds on it in the New Testament. To reject it as all a falsehood, concocted by devious men for some momentary advantage just seems foolish, to me. Of course, millions think my faith is foolish, too.


For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. - 1 Cor 1:18 How true.

So what to think? Is the Bible the word of God, or is it ebellished to fit what the church want you to think is the word of God? Either way, what's the difference, right?

As I've just explained: if you think 'the church', whoever that is to you, has 'made it all up' then you have zero basis for what you say is your 'faith'. You are taking mortal men's word for something you obviously can't comprehend and calling it faith but, as you say, it's not. That's the difference - and it's huge. If you can't grasp that fact, I can't help you, then. You are claiming Christ as your Savior but doubting the very basis for where we come to learn about Christ. That doesn't work for me. I don't trust my eternal life to 'guesses'. Atheists do that. They 'guess' what you claim: the bible is a lie and 'made up' by mere men so, ipso facto: there is no God, no Jesus, no 'salvation' and of course, what so many wish to believe: no heaven, no hell. If that's the crowd you feel more comfortable with, it's your choice. I suspect that you know better but for some reason you haven't shared here, you have started doubting the bible and so, whether you see it or not, undermining your own faith. That's sad - but it happens.

I mean, does the church endorce slavery? If not, then why is it that slavery was so common a few hundred years ago? During that time the church had such a huge influence on people's lives, it's hard to think that the church just sat idlely by and let thier congregation buy and sell slaves.

The bible never condemns slavery. It urges those who are slaves to be good one's and for masters to treat their slaves well. You didn't know that already? Do some reading, especially the 13 books in the NT written by the Apostle Paul. The bible is focused on individual behavior and living a life pleasing to God, not what governments should do or how the King should act. Scripture tells us to respect authority and unless it contradicts the bible, to obey the law and pay our taxes, etc, but it is not a manual for social justice, except as it applies to our own behavior as Christians.

Homosexuality is another issue that has been around since the beginning of time. All throughout history there has been homosexual activity. It probably started out as being a asertation of social stature. This is guess as of the mind set, seeing as how I am not gay, I have no idea as to what makes one man want to have sex with another. I think it's best to forget this part and move on, as long as we realize that even in the church there is MAJOR homosexual activity, involving the Priests. If they feared hell as the Bible states it, you'd think that would be enough to deter them, again just guessing here.

Not necessarily. The 'church' is full of hypocrites, including you and me, some days. No one is sinless or flawless - which is why we needed a savior - but some continue to sin against God, year after year, while still claiming to be his 'servants'. They are lying to both men and God at that point. Look what Jesus says about it (in the book you doubt):

Not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers.' - Matthew 7:21-23 RSV

The point in that scripture is that simply acting 'religious' and saying the 'right' words or doing the 'correct' rituals means nothing to God, who see's what's in our hearts and judges us by that, not our superficial acts or our pious words. Those who claim to 'represent' God and sin against His commands, such as pedophile priests, have much to answer for on Judgement Day. I would not wish to be them on that 'Great and Mournful Day' as the old hymn calls it.

I don't know the answer, nor do I claim to know. I just like to ask questions and be asked questions. I like to learn as much as I can. If I end up teaching someone something, it is merely by accident, and not intended. Probably as much as you don't intend on teaching.

I'm not a teacher and I certainly don't 'know' all the answers either - but God does. Many of them are right in scripture, where I go for the answers I need. I trust Him with my mortal and more importantly, my eternal life, as He has promised to love and care for me and make a place for me with Him, in heaven, as his 'adopted' son, as He will for all those who follow His Word and accept Christ as Savior. I know that because it says so in God's Word: the bible. If you choose to reject it as little more than an interesting book, then you have nothing but 'feelings' and some vague emotional tie to a God and a Savior that you cannot see. Christian believers have more than emotions, they have faith, not a 'guess'. We trust our lives to the Lord and do not believe His Word is a pack of lies someone called the 'Word of God' to sell books or gain some power over people. I regret that for some reason you reject or want to question scripture as the inspired Word of God and compare your 'faith' to a 'guess' and so, really have little to stand on when it's attacked, as it will be, in one way or another, I can assure you. That kind of faith is going to fade fast one of these days. I've seen it happen. You have no basis for what you claim you believe if you reject and question the bible. You are depending on other's teachings and your emotions and intellect, all of which will fail you in some measure, at times. God will not fail you - but you have to trust His Word for what it is. authentic and real. If you cannot bring yourself to do that then you have little to base your 'belief' on but yourself. A poor vehicle in which to carry your soul into eternity.

This is why I try to avoid debates, in person or on the web, with atheists. They reject the bible as a lie and claim Jesus is/was a fraud. We have nothing to say to each other at that point. I receive what I know about God and Christ from scripture: His Word. If you reject it, then we are just going to debate small points and as I cannot produce God on demand and the atheist cannot prove He doesn't exist, we just frustrate each other and nothing is gained by the debate.

I wish you well in your search for truth and I trust that you'll come back to the bible one day and realize it is what it has always been: the inerrant Word of God.

[Mercury]

Wow..Been a while since I've surfed the Blue Oval Lounge. Jut my kind of debate, having a strong science back ground, and just as strong on intrest in astronomy I feel I must chime in.

Mr 5.0 made the comment about Life and its proxomity to us (earth). The Hubble Telescope was not designed for searching for extra terrestrial life (Single Cell, civilazations, what ever).

There are several places in our solar sytem alone that could possibly have life on them. One is Europa, an icy moon of Jupiter. Below its surface ice lays Briny oceans and slush. Europa has constant tidal forces stretching it. The jupiter and the sun constantly causing a tug of war which creates heat (Jupiters moon IO is very strong visual evidence of that process). They believe Europa has volcanic vents deep in its oceans that may spawn, and feed life such as our own oceans have and do. Some beleive, though fancifull thinking in my book, that it may be beyond simple celled organsims and have progressed to aquatic life similar to that that is in our seas.

Titan, a moon of Saturn is the only moon in our system to have an atmoshpere (Mostly methane..dont light a match =) )..and its in between the pressure of earths and venus (Quite a range there). It has mysetrious reflective spots on its surface that can be attributed to lakes of natural gas. The gasses, and presence of storms also lead to the possibility of life..simple life. There are missions on the slate to go to titan..infact one is on its way there now.

I am personally excited by such things.

As for the hubble being used to detect life as mentioned earlier...has anyone here seen a picture of Pluto taken by the Hubble??? You'd be surprised. No details are resolved, for the Hubble does not have the optic ability to resolve details of such a small object at such a distance. It is not going to see a planet directly thats around another star..no matter how close it is. It can detect the tug that a planet does on the star, because the star will woble, it can also detect when a planet gets between the star, and us by a change in light emitions, and spectroscope readings (Thats how they can get an idea of what the planets atmosphere is)...other than that..thats it.

I believe that there is life out there..and intelligent life at that. I am willing to bet money on it...now if we ever contact it in my life time..thats another thing.

We dont know as much as we could, or as much as most people think. We can blame funding and budgeting for that.

Well, I would love to type more, but I have to get back to work now.

[bigwhitecobra]

I love these kinds of discussions. There is no way of proving any of these arguements. Proof. Concrete evIdence. At least as of now. None of us can die and tell the rest what happens and whether or not there is a heaven, hell, God, etc.

Who knows, we may be really far off with this whole God thing.

Chances are we aren't. Someone, or some thing had to "spark" this whole thing into motion.

Why are we so dead set on believing that we are the only life in this universe?
Let me refrase that.....Intelligent life. Evolved life.

If another planet has life on it at the same level of sophistiation as us, wouldn't that add to God's spender? And where does it say in the Bible that God didn't create life on other planets? Uh, I'm gettng off subject yet again. I gotta stop writing when I'm tired.....really.

Maybe we were meant to look for other life, and teach it about God.

New question.......if and whe we find another civilization on another planet, and we begin teaching them about God, are we supposed to teach them about Christ?

Did he come to Earth to die for thier sins too?

Or do you think God sent His son to that planet to die for thier sins?

Or does he have more than one Son? The Sons of God. Kinda creepy.

Yeah, too many beers today.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

I love these kinds of discussions. There is no way of proving any of these arguements. Proof. Concrete evIdence. At least as of now. None of us can die and tell the rest what happens and whether or not there is a heaven, hell, God, etc.

That's why it's called 'faith'. If God made himself physically known to every one of us in some concrete manner that was undeniable, I doubt there would be an atheist left in the world.

Who knows, we may be really far off with this whole God thing. Chances are we aren't. Someone, or some thing had to "spark" this whole thing into motion.

It's sometimes called the "Intelligent Design Theory" and while science won't acknowledge God as Creator, it does acknowledge that the universe and earth was 'designed' (planned) and not brought into being by random chance.

Why are we so dead set on believing that we are the only life in this universe?
Let me refrase that.....Intelligent life. Evolved life.

We're not really, that's why science fiction has been popular for over 100 years. The fact remains that if there is intelligent, evolved' life in the cosmos, they haven't found us and we certainly haven't found any sign of them, but for many, hope springs eternal.

If another planet has life on it at the same level of sophistiation as us, wouldn't that add to God's spender?

A bit. He's pretty splendorous right now, in my opinion.

And where does it say in the Bible that God didn't create life on other planets? Uh, I'm gettng off subject yet again. I gotta stop writing when I'm tired.....really.

You can never prove a negative and the bible doesn't specifically say what God did not create. Only that He created the 'heavens and the earth'. You can easily assume that since God created 'the heavens' that means he could just as easily have created life on another planet - but the bible doesn't actually say that anywhere.

Maybe we were meant to look for other life, and teach it about God.

Anything is possible but so far, our search for intelligent life in the universe has come to naught. We'll keep looking, though as we've only been at it for 30 or 40 years, now.

New question.......if and whe we find another civilization on another planet, and we begin teaching them about God, are we supposed to teach them about Christ?

Whoa! First, we have to actually find sentient life on another planet. Then, we have to be able to get to where they are. No easy feat - if it's even possible. Then we have to have a common language or means to communicate, etc. It's fun to speculate but the reality of the complications of space travel are huge. 'Star Trek' - where we can flit around the galaxies at warp speeds while sipping coffee in the mess hall is still science fiction in 2004. Maybe in 2104 or 2204 this will all be possible - and feasible. I wouldn't be concerned with teaching alien beings about God. If they exist, I'm certain they would know about their creator, just as we do. God would take care of that. He doesn't depend on his creation to do what He can do.

Did he come to Earth to die for thier sins too?

Or do you think God sent His son to that planet to die for thier sins?

Slow down. You're trying to fit square pegs into round holes here. Understand this: the bible was God's communication with his creation, mankind on the earth he created for us. It was not intended for other species on distant planets in some other galaxy. Jesus died for the sins of mankind, not other species on other planets. I suggest you stop attempting to transplant scripture that was intended for human beings and extrapolate it into some imaginary alien species you believe may exist somewhere in space.

Or does he have more than one Son? The Sons of God. Kinda creepy.

No, God does not have more than one Son. If you would study the bible and accept it as God's Holy Word, inspired by Him, you would not have these kinds of 'what if' questions. While I do not think there is sentient life elsewhere in space, I can't know that for certain. I do know that the bible was intended for men, not other beings and if other creations of God exist, I'm sure He has taken care of their spiritual needs, as He takes of ours.

While it's fun to speculate a bit, wasting too much time on the 'what if's' of possible other worlds and beings and God's interaction with them and not enough on what we already know about God, Christ and the plan of salvation is not productive. God is in charge and He takes care of all the details of running the universe and our world. Our job is to love and serve Him and not be concerned with what we cannot know, much less have any effect on, such as other beings on other planets 'out there'.

Yeah, too many beers today.

That explains a lot. Stop trying to understand God while under the influence of alcohol. Sober reflection is best.

[bigwhitecobra]

As a general response to your post, I was merely getting some questions off my mind. It helps me concentrate. As funny as that sounds, it's true. In all the confusion and noise in my mind, the truth tends to stand out. Kinda like a multiple choice question. You get a certain numbers answers, two are usually just plain bizarre. One is close, but you can still the fecal matter drying. And then there was one. That's gotta be it, right?

Ok so this isn't a good example, but you get the point.

As far as the rest goes, I still feel like there is someother way to God other than the Bible. Now before everyone gets that little vein in thier forhead thumping, hear me out, and this time, listen.

The Bible is, to a certain extend, The Word of God. I don't believe that it is word for word, exact truth. It's the word of God, just not in the literal since. The basics are there, and in that, it is the truth. As God meant it to be. People take it too far and put thier two cents worth in. By that I mean in the Bible itself. Not anyone here, ok? We cool? Sweet!

Take for instance, Did Jesus walk on water, calm a storm, and calm his disciples? No.
I get the message though. Without Jesus in your life you're like a ship in a storm. Tossed about the waves of life, about to drown. But Jesus can calm the seas of your life and bring you safely to your destination.....Heaven and everlasting peace.

If Jesus had actually walked on the water, calmed the storm, and so forth, wouldn't that be the same as when he was tempted by the devil? I mean certainly, He could have, being the Son of God, but would He? Would that not be against all of His teachings?(the use of His power, or whatever)

Now, I can't think of anything as an arguement about the people He healed or Lazerus, but hey there is one somewhere....lol(just kidding there). Anyway, I gotta go study for school before my girlfriend kicks my arse.

Later.

[Mercury]

Heres an interesting Tid Bit of info. Relatively new.

Okay.. They found Methane in the atmosphere of mars. Its source due to parts per atmosphere is thought to be still active.

Now, there are a few things that can count for Sulphur in the martian atmosphere.

1. Volcanism. Which is intersting because mars has thought to have cooled off. To find that its still somewhat volcanically active would be facsinating to me.

2. Bioligical activity. Methane is the biproduct of every bioligical creature (No Fart Jokes) Even bacteria.

Hmmmm...either way..be it we find Microbial life, or if Olympus Mons blows its top (Wont happen, there are no signs..but.) Its fascinating in my book.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

As a general response to your post, I was merely getting some questions off my mind. It helps me concentrate. As funny as that sounds, it's true. In all the confusion and noise in my mind, the truth tends to stand out. Kinda like a multiple choice question. You get a certain numbers answers, two are usually just plain bizarre. One is close, but you can still the fecal matter drying. And then there was one. That's gotta be it, right?

Ok so this isn't a good example, but you get the point.

Sort of.

As far as the rest goes, I still feel like there is someother way to God other than the Bible. Now before everyone gets that little vein in thier forhead thumping, hear me out, and this time, listen.

The Bible is, to a certain extend, The Word of God. I don't believe that it is word for word, exact truth. It's the word of God, just not in the literal since. The basics are there, and in that, it is the truth. As God meant it to be. People take it too far and put thier two cents worth in. By that I mean in the Bible itself. Not anyone here, ok? We cool? Sweet!

All finished? Good.

I've been listening to all the various and sundry versions of 'The Bible isn't literally true' for most of my life. You have nothing new to offer to that proposition here. I hope you don't think your questioning is something original. The bible has been called 100 different versions of a lie and a 'fairy tale' for 2,000 years. Usually by those who don't wish to follow it's commands and instructions. Sound familiar? The atheists generally claim that Jesus was a nice man with good ideas about loving others, yada yada, yada but of course, He was not God in the flesh. That denies both God and Christ - which is why they are atheists. When you claim to believe the bible is the Word of God, then say it's full of fake stories disguised to fool people to believe things that are 'good for them', you mock the Word you claim you believe is from God. Trying to have it both ways: saying you 'believe' in God, Jesus Christ as Savior and the Bible, then deny a lot of what the bible says is in any way literally true. This is not uncommon with the conflicted that want to believe in God and Jesus but don't want to really obey either one. It's disingenuous and renders your claims of 'belief' rather hollow when you deny the source those beliefs stem from.

Take for instance, Did Jesus walk on water, calm a storm, and calm his disciples? No.
I get the message though. Without Jesus in your life you're like a ship in a storm. Tossed about the waves of life, about to drown. But Jesus can calm the seas of your life and bring you safely to your destination.....Heaven and everlasting peace.

How sad. You deny God's power and try to make miracles - Jesus' proof of who He was - some kind of fairy tale for the ignorant to receive soime vague message about 'life'. That insults almighty God and makes you look absolutely preposterous in your denial. You're trying to claim the mantle of Christianity yet deny the power of God and Christ. It won't work. You're simply fooling yourself by trying to have it both ways.

If Jesus had actually walked on the water, calmed the storm, and so forth, wouldn't that be the same as when he was tempted by the devil? I mean certainly, He could have, being the Son of God, but would He? Would that not be against all of His teachings?(the use of His power, or whatever)

You are terribly confused and need some serious bible study. Jesus did not yield to temptation in the desert because the temptation came from Satan, who had no hold on Jesus (as he does on us). For Jesus to use His power because Satan challenged Him to do so was wrong, and Jesus did not yield. For Jesus to simply calm a storm that frightened and threatened to drown his disciples and to walk on the water (and save Peter from sinking) was an example of Jesus' power. Not for Satan's benefit, but for the disciples's benefit. No one told Jesus to do what He did, unlike during His temptation in the desert. The other lesson was that when Peter doubted Jesus, he started to sink, but when Peter begged Jesus to save him, Jesus did so - immediately. He still does, today.

Now, I can't think of anything as an arguement about the people He healed or Lazerus, but hey there is one somewhere....lol(just kidding there). Anyway, I gotta go study for school before my girlfriend kicks my arse.

Later.

As I said, you can believe whatever you wish but as a professed Christian, you appear very confused about what you really believe, and why. I think you have a long way to go in your study and understanding of both the bible and the power of Jesus. I suggest you work on it.

[bigwhitecobra]

Wow, looks as though I hit one hell of a nerve there.

I'm not calling the stories from the Bible a fairy tale, or some other fantasy writing. I was merely stating that I don't personally believe that he walked on water. Unless you count mud puddles with a depth of less than 1/4". I am saying that I understand the story, and it's meaning. And for the meaning intended, it is truth. But not in the way it is written. You are confusing magic with physics. I'm not asking for Jesus to come back to Earth just to show me that he can walk on water. It would help, but I'm not asking. I think that in the story of the storm and the walking on water thing, it gives us the message that Christ can and will be there for us no matter where we are in the world, no matter the time, no matter the place. He will come to us if we ask Him to. For those that ask HIm to come, and then doubt that He is with you, you begin to sink, and yet He will still save you.

I, at no time, said that the Bible was a great piece of fiction. Or some grand Fairy Tale. I believe the Bible is, in it's basic sense, the word of God. The truth is there, you just have to get around all the HUMAN errors.

Look at it this way. When Jesus was asked about adultry, He only stated that for a woman to remarry while her husband was still alive, divorced or not, she was an adultress. Nothing was said of man. Could it be that men are meant to go aout and screw as many women as possible? No. I'm going off of memory, so this is not word for word. So if I am wrong, and I'll find out as soon as I get home from school, I will be the first to post it.

In the mean time, feel free to pick me apart. You were going to anyway, but at least now you are invited.

Have a good day. And don't forget to wash your brain....uh I mean hands. Heh heh, couldn't resist, I'm sorry for that, but I have ot leave it. It's just funny.

Really, have a good day, and I mean no ill will. Later.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Wow, looks as though I hit one hell of a nerve there.

What you 'hit' was the same note that atheists use, only coming from a professed Christian person, you sound ridiculous doing so. I'm simply trying to point out the fallacy that is inherent in what you say about scripture. If you go around saying you're a Christian and yet deny the truth of the bible, I'm very surprised many others have not already called you on the hypocrisy of that position.

I'm not calling the stories from the Bible a fairy tale, or some other fantasy writing. I was merely stating that I don't personally believe that he walked on water. Unless you count mud puddles with a depth of less than 1/4". I am saying that I understand the story, and it's meaning. And for the meaning intended, it is truth. But not in the way it is written. You are confusing magic with physics. I'm not asking for Jesus to come back to Earth just to show me that he can walk on water. It would help, but I'm not asking. I think that in the story of the storm and the walking on water thing, it gives us the message that Christ can and will be there for us no matter where we are in the world, no matter the time, no matter the place. He will come to us if we ask Him to. For those that ask HIm to come, and then doubt that He is with you, you begin to sink, and yet He will still save you.

You, my friend, are confusing human limitations with the unlimited power of God. When you dismiss the possibility of Jesus walking on water, you're putting human limitations on the Son of God. That makes no sense. If Jesus can save us by His sacrifice on the cross as both the perfect man as well as a Divine entity, why is He not able to perform miracles? He made the water and He can certainly walk on it if He chooses. Your denial of this miracle undercuts the rest of what you say here. You're making up personal interpretations of holy scripture and denying it's power by denying Jesus the ability to do miracles, simply because you don't 'personally believe it'. That indicates you have no faith. You may think you do but when you deny Jesus' ability to perform miracles, then you reduce Him to a mere mortal man, unable to save anyone from anything, even Himself. That is not any kind of faith at all.

I, at no time, said that the Bible was a great piece of fiction. Or some grand Fairy Tale. I believe the Bible is, in it's basic sense, the word of God. The truth is there, you just have to get around all the HUMAN errors.

That position presupposes that God, the inspiration and source for the bible, is unable to prevent mortal men, who, through evil intent or sheer stupidity, have distorted His Word. Made it a lie, full of 'mistakes' and 'errors' (but somehow 'true' all the same). That's an untenable position and one that atheists use to dismiss the bible as garbage. It assumes that Almighty God, the creator of all that exists, simply allowed His Word - the truth you say you believe is 'in there' - to be made very difficult to find and understand because mere men have screwed around with it. How ridiculous is that? You must assume God is helpless to make certain His Word is true and not distorted or changed in ways that make it's truth easy to mock, as so many do. Sorry, millions of Christians don't buy that and neither do I. If that's what you choose to believe, no one can stop you, but it's false and indicates a very shallow 'faith'.

Look at it this way. When Jesus was asked about adultry, He only stated that for a woman to remarry while her husband was still alive, divorced or not, she was an adultress. Nothing was said of man. Could it be that men are meant to go aout and screw as many women as possible? No. I'm going off of memory, so this is not word for word. So if I am wrong, and I'll find out as soon as I get home from school, I will be the first to post it.

Oh boy. More bibical ignorance here. The bible condemns adultery - period.

‘If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge this evil from Israel.’ - (Deuteronomy 22:22)

Jesus described adultery in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus said: "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-30). Notice that Jesus said anyone, not just married men. This is all men, married and unmarried. So if Jesus said that an unmarried man looking lustfully upon a woman has committed adultery in his heart, would it not be safe to say that a unmarried man who has sex with a woman has committed adultery? Sex is to be between husband and wife. That's all. Too bad many who take the name 'Christian' refuse to accept, much less honor this command, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

In the mean time, feel free to pick me apart. You were going to anyway, but at least now you are invited.

Have a good day. And don't forget to wash your brain....uh I mean hands. Heh heh, couldn't resist, I'm sorry for that, but I have ot leave it. It's just funny.

Really, have a good day, and I mean no ill will. Later.

I mean no ill will to you, either. I'm simply pointing out the glaring fallacies you base your 'belief' on, including your denial of the inerrancy of scripture and your choice to put your own interpretation on them; one that denies the scriptures are literally true and that both God and Jesus performed many, many miracles, simply because you, personally, refuse to accept God's power and believe that men changed scripture for some vague purpose that makes the bible now a sham. That's ridiculous. Either the bible is true - or it isn't. Take it or leave it. Playing around with private 'interpretations' that suit what you wish to believe is a huge mistake and will eventually undermine your 'faith'. I doubt you'll remain a Christian long with that kind of outlook on the very source of what you claim to believe about God and Christ. I hope I'm wrong - for your sake, just as I hope you one day re-think your rejection of God's Word for what it is. Not a distorted or altered bunch of words that mere men messed with and changed to suit their purpose thus, thwarting God's purpose - something man cannot do - but the very Power of God to save mankind, if only they will listen - and stop doubting.

[bigwhitecobra]

That position presupposes that God, the inspiration and source for the bible, is unable to prevent mortal men, who, through evil intent or sheer stupidity, have distorted His Word. Made it a lie, full of 'mistakes' and 'errors' (but somehow 'true' all the same). That's an untenable position and one that atheists use to dismiss the bible as garbage. It assumes that Almighty God, the creator of all that exists, simply allowed His Word - the truth you say you believe is 'in there' - to be made very difficult to find and understand because mere men have screwed around with it. How ridiculous is that? You must assume God is helpless to make certain His Word is true and not distorted or changed in ways that make it's truth easy to mock, as so many do. Sorry, millions of Christians don't buy that and neither do I. If that's what you choose to believe, no one can stop you, but it's false and indicates a very shallow 'faith'.

If God in all His glory, was to interfere with the creation of the Bible, doesn't that deny the greatest gift of all? The gift of Choice? Men were given the the power to choose right from wrong, left from right, front from back, and so on. God made us to mess up. He knows we are going to mess up, so how can you tell me that God made sure that His word, the Bible, was unmolested? Especially when man was taking notes?

I never said that the Bible was a lie. Nor did I say that it was Garbage. I said that I believe that it is exagerated. No more no less. I don't deny that Jesus performed miracles. But you have to take a look at the time period that these miracles took place and how desprated these people were to have something to believe in. Jesus promissed that when they died, they would assend into heaven, where the streets were paved with gold, and so on. Hell, I'd want to follow Him to the ends of the Earth and then some. I do now. But let's be a little more realistic. Jesus turned water into wine, cool. Magicians do that same trick today, and people believe that the guy on stage is really doing it. Hell, I can turn water into Kool-Aid in mere seconds, doesn't make it a miracle. I don't deny that Jesus turn water into wine in front of a bunch of people at a wedding. All I am saying is that there are plenty of ways to do the same thing, in front of a live audience.

Doctors bring people back from the dead everyday, granted, they don't just touch them and bam they're healed. But they do heal people. Miracle or not, it happens. Not to take anything away from Jesus. He gave the blind sight, the crippled could walk, the lepors were healed, you know it better than me.

All that I am saying is that from a certain point of veiw anything is a miracle. You just have to sort through the non sense to find true meaning. Does that mean that I am completely wrong in regards to the Bible? I don't know. Maybe. What I believe is based partly on faith, and partly on human history.

People believe what they are told to believe. Who killed JFK? Was it Oswald? Was it the FBI? Personally, I say it was the guy that pulled the trigger, whom ever it was. So why should the Bible be any different? It's a way of controlling the masses, as it is written. The church wants you to concentrate on what they want you to concentrate on. The church doesn't like gay marrage, so you shouldn't either. The church doesn't like abortion, so you better not either. History is filled will religious fanatics forcing thier will on others. Some of the bloodiest, most brutal wars were fought based on religious hatred. All because someone gave the wrong answer to the God Question.
"Do you believe in God?"
"No"
bang dead
"Do you believe in God?"
"Yeah"
"Do you believe in MY God?"
"No"
bang dead

Religion isn't so much about believing in what a book tells you to believe, but believing that God loves you, and created everything for you. He gave His Son for you. His Son loves you, and wants you to love Him for the grace He so freely gave to us. Get caught up in a book if you want to, but you might miss the whole point of being here. Books come and go, but God is here forever.

Later.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

If God in all His glory, was to interfere with the creation of the Bible, doesn't that deny the greatest gift of all? The gift of Choice?

Men were given the the power to choose right from wrong, left from right, front from back, and so on. God made us to mess up. He knows we are going to mess up, so how can you tell me that God made sure that His word, the Bible, was unmolested? Especially when man was taking notes?

I can tell you that because God inspired the bible to be His instruction manual for His creation: mankind. His. God's. It was not left to mere men to decide what to say in God's name, right or wrong while God sat back and watched men lie about Him and His instructions for us. Can't you grasp that? The bible is God's creation, not man's. Because it was written by men and the Catholic religion fooled around with it in the early centuries of Christianity many think that the bible is simply a creation of man - with all the errors man would be prone to. It is not. If it was simply a book by men about God, it would be useless and worthless. It isn't, because the bible is a book from God to men - not from men about God. You are denying the bible's Divine inspiration. A common error.

I never said that the Bible was a lie. Nor did I say that it was Garbage. I said that I believe that it is exagerated. No more no less. I don't deny that Jesus performed miracles. But you have to take a look at the time period that these miracles took place and how desprated these people were to have something to believe in. Jesus promissed that when they died, they would assend into heaven, where the streets were paved with gold, and so on. Hell, I'd want to follow Him to the ends of the Earth and then some. I do now. But let's be a little more realistic.

When people talk about the Holy Bible and Jesus, then say: "let's be realistic" I know what's coming. A denial of the power of God. How sad that someone taking the name 'Christian' denies God's power and calls the bible an 'exaggeration'. You should be ashamed to be using the name of Jesus with one breath while you deny His power with the next and defame holy scripture, which is what the Christianity you profess is based on. Something I think you are clueless about.

Jesus turned water into wine, cool. Magicians do that same trick today, and people believe that the guy on stage is really doing it. Hell, I can turn water into Kool-Aid in mere seconds, doesn't make it a miracle. I don't deny that Jesus turn water into wine in front of a bunch of people at a wedding. All I am saying is that there are plenty of ways to do the same thing, in front of a live audience.

So Jesus was basically a fraud and little more than a magic act? You are coming close to blasphemy here and I regret that you can't even see what you're doing with your casual dismissal of the miracles of Christ. How about the raising of the dead, like Lazarus, who had been dead for days and was beginning to decompose? Another trick from that crafty Jesus? Magic act stuff? What an entertainer! This is the being you claim to follow? A fake doing tricks to entertain people? God help you in your disbelief. I mean that.

Doctors bring people back from the dead everyday, granted, they don't just touch them and bam they're healed. But they do heal people. Miracle or not, it happens. Not to take anything away from Jesus. He gave the blind sight, the crippled could walk, the lepors were healed, you know it better than me.

You so miss the point that it's ridiculous. Jesus raised the dead. Doctors can't do that, not when the dead person has been dead for days. Doctors can't heal people who have been paralyzed since birth, or the blind from birth, as Jesus did, many, many times. When Jesus healed it was instant and permanent, not a 'maybe' or a 'let's hope'-style healing. To even begin to compare - on any level - the miracles of Jesus with modern-day doctors and magicians is simply absurd. Stop. Please. It's just pitiful.

All that I am saying is that from a certain point of veiw anything is a miracle. You just have to sort through the non sense to find true meaning. Does that mean that I am completely wrong in regards to the Bible? I don't know. Maybe. What I believe is based partly on faith, and partly on human history.

No part of the bible is 'nonsense'. I believe the 'faith' part you refer to is woefully small in your case. It's unfortunate that you rely more on 'human history' than the power of God and Jesus, which is the focus of the bible.

People believe what they are told to believe. Who killed JFK? Was it Oswald? Was it the FBI? Personally, I say it was the guy that pulled the trigger, whom ever it was. So why should the Bible be any different?

How sad. You're talking just like every angry atheist I've ever known. That's because you refuse in any way to accept the bible as the Word of God and want to take it as a mere book written by men. Look at the tangent you get off on here:

It's a way of controlling the masses, as it is written. The church wants you to concentrate on what they want you to concentrate on. The church doesn't like gay marrage, so you shouldn't either. The church doesn't like abortion, so you better not either. History is filled will religious fanatics forcing thier will on others. Some of the bloodiest, most brutal wars were fought based on religious hatred. All because someone gave the wrong answer to the God Question.
"Do you believe in God?"
"No"
bang dead
"Do you believe in God?"
"Yeah"
"Do you believe in MY God?"
"No"
bang dead

Ah. The old: 'religion kills more people than anything else' argument. You MUST be a 'closet atheist', right? Look, my non-believing friend: more people have died under God-less regimes run by brutal men than have died under any 'religious' war in human history. It's clear that you don't really understand what you are saying here. Josef Stalin's communist regime murdered some 60 million people. Communist China's Mao Zedong murdered some 50 million and that death toll keeps going up. Both were hardcore atheists who did not allow any hint of any religion to exist while they were in power, which was decades. No 'religious' war ever came close to taking that many lives, so don't tell anyone who knows a bit of even recent history about how 'religion' has killed more people than anything else. That's a lie. Stop spreading it. Atheists have killed more than anyone else when they had the power to do so, as in Communist Russia and China.

Religion isn't so much about believing in what a book tells you to believe, but believing that God loves you, and created everything for you. He gave His Son for you. His Son loves you, and wants you to love Him for the grace He so freely gave to us.

Get caught up in a book if you want to, but you might miss the whole point of being here. Books come and go, but God is here forever.

Christianity isn't a 'religion', it's a lifestyle, and all the things you just mentioned; God's love, his role as Creator and the fact of Jesus' birth, ministry,voluntary suffering and death on the cross asa well as His resurrection and the God's grace of offering Jesus as exculpation for our sins, all the knowledge you have of those things come from the bible. The sacred book you claim is 'an exaggeration' written by mere men to 'control' people. What hogwash. You only know the things you know about God and Jesus because - no matter who told originally taught them to you - they came from God's Word...the bible. That book you foolishly claim we shouldn't be 'caught up' in - which makes no sense at all. Your denial of it's power as the Holy Word of God is truly sad and shows a gross misunderstanding of what scripture is and what it means. From where do you derive your basis for what you claim to believe about God and Christ, not to mention your moral code? Your own 'personal interpretation' of scripture? Good luck. I don't see you lasting long as a 'Christian' in a world that is openly hostile to what you claim you believe. You have no real basis for your beliefs and you won't even admit that obvious fact but instead, make ridiculous comments about what a miracle is. Here's a hint: it's doing something beyond human limitations to do. Jesus did that regularly, including raising the dead, curing every type of disease known at the time and even providing food for 5,000 people from a few loaves of bread and a few fish. Wise up.

I've attempted, as a Christian believer, to point out your unfortunate error in dismissing the validity of the bible, as atheists do (you sound just like them in many ways...you've obviously been influenced by them at some point) but you choose to blithly ignore whatever doesn't fit what you've chosen to believe and what you're obviously now comfortable with. You apparently think that Christianity is just God wanting everyone to 'be happy' all the time, as long as you acknowledge Him, which is naive and again, shows almost no understanding of what Jesus taught. I can't change what you've chosen to buy into but I can tell you that it's in very sharp conflict with fundamental Christianity, to put it mildly. You deny the supremacy of God's Word and try to compare Jesus' miracles to modern-day entertainers and doctor's operations. How sad - and how bibically ignorant that is. I don't wish to insult you but some of your statements here are simply bizarre and I cannot comment on them with anything less than incredulity and amazement at your shallowness in your understanding of scripture.

I believe you are trying to combine what you claim to believe about God and Christ with the world's jaded and negative view of 'religion' and the bible. That never works. Jesus warned that you cannot serve Two Masters. You can't buy into the secular world's rejection of the bible as a book with no real power, much less being directly from God, and still try to claim Christ as your savior when you deny the one, original place He is always called Savior and where He claims the nature of God: the bible. Both Jesus and the bible are take-it-or-leave-it propositions. Jesus isn't 'sort of' our savior and the bible isn't half-true and really just a book written to 'control' us. How can a book you reject as written by mere men 'control' anyone? It cannot, unless you acknowledge that it's power is from God, not a bunch of long-dead men trying to 'control the masses' - classic atheist dogma - and you willingly repeat it here, just like any hardcore atheist would. It's sad but we all make our choices as people with Free Will. Your's denies the bible - the very source of Christianity - yet you continue to claim to be a 'Christian'. How, I don't know, as you deny the basis of what Christianity was founded on. You're kidding yourself here but I can see you will remain unswayed in your non-belief so I won't burn up any more of the site's bandwidth to keep telling you the same things while you reply with ridiculous comparisons and inane statements about scripture and Jesus' power. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. You've honestly made your beliefs known and I've attempted to show you the error of those beliefs and bibical denials. I can do no more. That being the case, you are free to have the 'last word' in this lengthy exchange as I have nothing more to add other than to hope (and pray) that someday before it's too late you'll awake to the folly of your denials and accept the bible for what it is and what it says. As always, that will be your choice and someday when you stand before God, as we all will, you will have the opportunity to answer for it - as we all will answer to Him for our acceptance or rejection of Him and His Word.

I wish you well as you - one fervently hopes - grow in your faith.

[bigred90gt]

With all the talk of god (as he is represented in the bible) and Jesus, and how the bible is right in all accounts, where does that leave the other religions of the world? Islam, Budhism, so forth and so on? Are they all a bunch of bs, because they are not the word of your god? What about the gods of the Native Americans? Are they a bunch of crap too because they are not your god? If that is how you feel, I must say you are narrow minded and will hopefully one day see the truth for what it is. (Jim, thats not aimed directly at you, but, all those claiming that the bible is the only word to live by and that the god represented therein, is the one, the only almighty god).

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigred90gt :

With all the talk of god (as he is represented in the bible) and Jesus, and how the bible is right in all accounts, where does that leave the other religions of the world? Islam, Budhism, so forth and so on? Are they all a bunch of bs, because they are not the word of your god? What about the gods of the Native Americans? Are they a bunch of crap too because they are not your god? If that is how you feel, I must say you are narrow minded and will hopefully one day see the truth for what it is. (Jim, thats not aimed directly at you, but, all those claiming that the bible is the only word to live by and that the god represented therein, is the one, the only almighty god).

It may not be 'directly aimed at me' but I'll respond to it, all the same. How's that?

The Bible is God's Word and yes, you either accept it as such and thus, Christianity, or you do not. Jesus was either the Son of God and mankinds one and only savior - or a liar and a madman. He either died and was resurrected or it's all a big fat lie. You cannot half-heartedly 'accept' the bible, or God or Jesus Christ. It's all or nothing. God outlines this many times in scripture.

As for the religions you mention: yes, they are false. They all conflict mightily with both each other and Christianity. They can in no way all 'lead to God' as they make vastly different claims about God and other spiritual issues. That conflict renders them false, no matter how big their membership may be. Christians do see 'the truth': the bible, the Word of God. Not the Koran or some other 'sacred' book. We all make a choice: you can't subscribe to all the world's religions at one time. That's ridiculous if you have even the slightest knowledge about 'religion' and what they claim to be 'the truth'.

The habit of calling those who accept the bible as the Word of God and so, freely accept Jesus as the Son of God and, as He stated: "The way, the truth and the life" (the ONLY way to God) as 'narrow-minded' is lame. Are Muslim's 'narrow-minded'? How about those Native Americans you mentioned who worshiped nature? Are they 'narrow-minded', too? Get real. All religions claim to be exclusive. I stand on the bible and in a broader sense, Christianity, based on Jesus Christ as savior - the ONLY savior for mankind given by God. That is my right and my choice to make, as we all do. To mock it as somehow too 'exclusive' (not including other religions as equal) simply demonstrates a lack of understanding the very faith you dismiss as 'narrow-minded'. You can believe what you want, of coures, but if you think every major religion is somehow equal, you obviously know very little about any of them and are simply speaking from ignorance here. It happens a lot when 'religion' comes up.

[bigwhitecobra]

I was actually going to call it quits on this discussion until the last two posts. It brought up a good point, but with the wrong question. Christianity is obviously the one and only correct, if you will, religion. But which denomination is the right one? Catholic, Babtist, Morman, Chruch of Christ? Yada yada yada.

One of them has to be more right than the other ones. Am I the only one that thinks this is all just bunch of crap? This religion is right and the rest are crap, but inside that religion are other more complicated sectors of said religion, each believing the way they believe is the correct way and the others are crap.

What is going on here? Someone figure it out and let me know which is the correct one, so I don't have to waste anymore time with it. I'd hate to get it wrong and suffer the punishment because I was Catholic, instead of Babtist. (For example)


See my point here? I know......they are all the same. God says all that believe in Him and His Son dying for us shall be saved.

Romans 10:9 and 10: That if thou shalt confess of they mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Now since I am not an educated man, please explain this to me. I have my opinion of this verse, but I am batting 0 right now, and would like to hear someone else's idea.

Later.

[bigred90gt]

"We are all atheists, some of us just believe in fewer gods than others. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen F. Roberts

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

I was actually going to call it quits on this discussion until the last two posts. It brought up a good point, but with the wrong question. Christianity is obviously the one and only correct, if you will, religion. But which denomination is the right one? Catholic, Babtist, Morman, Chruch of Christ? Yada yada yada.

One of them has to be more right than the other ones. Am I the only one that thinks this is all just bunch of crap? This religion is right and the rest are crap, but inside that religion are other more complicated sectors of said religion, each believing the way they believe is the correct way and the others are crap.

I'll respond to this because it's a different subject than your previous one and the question seems honest and so, deserves an answer.

No 'denomination' is the 'right one'.

Basic Christianity - fundamental Christianity, if you will, is based totally on scripture and accepts the bible as the literal Word of God, as I've already explained here, in detail. Within Christianity are many factions, all with differing doctrines and those are all man-made. That is, they are man's interpretations of scripture. One will say that a certain bibical passage forbids using musical instruments in a worship service, another will say that this or that passage really means this or that about modern-day life, etc, or as you would say: yada, yada, yada. They are basically just human opinions on the meanings of scripture and how we should worship and follow Christ. Some churches offer the Lord's Supper every week, others once a month, others, only once a year. On and on it goes.

What is going on here? Someone figure it out and let me know which is the correct one, so I don't have to waste anymore time with it. I'd hate to get it wrong and suffer the punishment because I was Catholic, instead of Babtist. (For example)

See my point here? I know......they are all the same. God says all that believe in Him and His Son dying for us shall be saved.

Romans 10:9 and 10: That if thou shalt confess of they mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Now since I am not an educated man, please explain this to me. I have my opinion of this verse, but I am batting 0 right now, and would like to hear someone else's idea.

What is going on here is man choosing to interpret scripture instead of taking it at face value. Men have the compulsion to make rules and in other ways put burdens on people that God never intended to be there. Some so-called 'Christian' churches even ordain (and celebrate) practicing homosexuals as Bishops while others will disfellowship a member for openly practicing homosexuality that is not eventually repented of and ceased.

You are quite correct that to be saved (from eternal separation from God - hell) one only has to accept God as sovereign, renounce sin and acknowledge Jesus as Savior and Lord in your heart and mind as well as to other men, in public, be baptized and then live as Jesus taught, bringing your sins and burdens to Him from that point on. That's far too 'easy' for some folks. Sadly, for some folks, salvation seems to be to 'easy', so they add on to it and make rules for others to follow. This is generally unscriptual. Every 'rule' we need is in the bible and a majority of them come from Jesus. After the Gospels the remainer of the new Testament is a clarification of how we should live and addresses problems in the first-century Christian church, many of which can still be applied, today.

The Christian churches are not 'all the same' by a long shot. For instance: the Espiscopal Church is very 'liberal' and hardly bother to use scripture as a guide anymore. The Methodists are also very 'liberal' and make a lot of 'allowences' for behavior that the bible condemns. The Catholic Church is very rules oriented and puts much stock in symbolism and rituals, which I think just get in the way. Baptists believe in a 'once-saved always saved' doctrine which is very controversial in some quarters. My point is that they all have flaws and questionable practices, in some cases. Like any human institution, they all have 'hypocrites' in their body, too. Every church does so get used to it because you are going to be one of those, sooner or later. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3: 23)

My advice to any new Christian or one seeking guidance is to seek out and attend a fundamentalist Christian church that makes a point of basing their worship and studies on scripture, not some man's doctrine. They are often called 'bible-based' churches. That let's out the bigger, so-called 'mainline' churches which have become basically moribund and mired in trying to conform to secular values to attract members instead of trusting in God's Word to add to their number. Numbers are not the point, of course, preaching the truth of God is. Many Christian, Protestant churches seem to have forgotten that. While some doctrine (such as not using musical instruments in a worship service) are basically harmless, others are less benign. A so-called Christian church that puts more stock in it's man-made doctrines and allows things that the bible calls sin are not worthy of the name: Christian. Unfortunately, they're in abundance. Stick with a non-denominational bible-believing, fundamentalist Christian church that relies on scripture and not some man's doctrine and you'll be fine.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigred90gt :

"We are all atheists, some of us just believe in fewer gods than others. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen F. Roberts

You misquoted the original statement made by Mr. Roberts in an internet debate in 1995.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

It's a good line - if you're an atheist. Unfortunately, that's all it is: a snappy comeback with little substance. The evidence for a Creator is all around us and most of the 'gods' atheists like to compare to the God of the Bible are simply human inventions. No founder of any religion ever claimed to be God incarnate, as Jesus did and no founder of any religion that matters anymore (I'm discounting Greek myths which most sentient people understand are myths) ever rose from the dead, was seen by hundreds and offered Himself as a living sacrifice for man's sin, then ascended into heaven to prepare a place for us. Most 'gods' some people worship - or used to - are either just a part of creation ('nature') or a fabrication. While the bible was written by man and contains much that a hardened non-believer can mock and dismiss (as they do, regularly) the true atheist never believed in any 'god' and their attempts to pretend that they do and that all 'gods' are somehow equal is simply foolish, but all too common in those never-ending debates, which are usually a big waste of time.

[bigred90gt]

I actually took that quote from someones signature on another site. If it was incorrect, I appologize.

I realize that the bible and religion is for those who have faith in it. I cant make myself live my life by a book, that has no concrete evidence that anything in it is true. The only reason you say:

"The evidence for a Creator is all around us and most of the 'gods' atheists like to compare to the God of the Bible are simply human inventions. No founder of any religion ever claimed to be God incarnate, as Jesus did and no founder of any religion that matters anymore (I'm discounting Greek myths which most sentient people understand are myths) ever rose from the dead, was seen by hundreds and offered Himself as a living sacrifice for man's sin, then ascended into heaven to prepare a place for us."

is because that is what you were told, and what you have read. There is no proof that any of the events in the bible ever took place. I cant see how any competent person can live there lives based on a book and blind faith. There are too many important, life altering decisions that are made on a daily basis for me to make them based on something that was written in a book, that has no backgroung. And as has already been said, this debate will never end, and usually leaves those involved with a bad taste in their mouths. I have had many debates on the subject, and when the time comes for evidence, and proof of events, the answer is always "because the bible says". And that answer gets no one anywhere.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigred90gt :

I actually took that quote from someones signature on another site. If it was incorrect, I appologize.

I realize that the bible and religion is for those who have faith in it. I cant make myself live my life by a book, that has no concrete evidence that anything in it is true. The only reason you say....is because that is what you were told, and what you have read. There is no proof that any of the events in the bible ever took place. I cant see how any competent person can live there lives based on a book and blind faith. There are too many important, life altering decisions that are made on a daily basis for me to make them based on something that was written in a book, that has no backgroung. And as has already been said, this debate will never end, and usually leaves those involved with a bad taste in their mouths. I have had many debates on the subject, and when the time comes for evidence, and proof of events, the answer is always "because the bible says". And that answer gets no one anywhere.

I believe that when atheists dismiss the bible as poppycock ('a book') they do so at their own spiritual peril - and they are quite free to do so. That's the beauty of Free Will. You make your choice and you eventually will answer for it. Or, as atheists believe, you don't. One day we'll all find out and there will no longer be doubt and futile arguments. I look forward to thyat day.

The proof of God's creation is right in front of us - in so-called 'nature' - which screams 'intelligent design' - yet most atheists ignore it as it upsets their well-nutured 'non-belief'. Of course, the atheist cannot for one second prove that God does not exist, so the old 'evidence' and 'prove it' argument is moot, in my view. "Nature' proves an intelligent design and that begs a designer. The rest is easy to figure out.

I believe that most non-believers simply do not wish to bow to anything or anyone other than themself. It's common. They make up their own moral rules and by dismissing even the existence of God, much less Jesus, they consider themselves unaccountable to anything but human laws and their own personal decisions on what is fair, right and moral. Sort of the adult version of the standard, rebellious teen-age attitude of: "Nobody tells ME what to do!" I can actually understand that attitude on some levels, but it denies the very real spiritual nature of man and ignores many realities, while dismissing God and Christ as unnecessary and even a lie and a fraud because they won't dance on the table for them at the atheists command. How sad I find that willful ignorance.

Most atheists I've known that weren't raised as atheists (rare) were brought up in either a strict religious environment that they rebelled from when they discovered the carnal pleasures of the opposite sex, booze and drugs or a wishy-washy, Easter-and-Christmas type of 'religious' family that never really seemed to believe much of anything about the religion they professed. In both cases, around the teen years the rebellion occured and they were told by atheists how 'narrow-minded' and 'exclusive' their parent's religion was and how it was all a big sham, anyway, yada, yada, yada. They ate this up and looooved feeling grown-up and sophisticated by renouncing 'religion'. In the case of the person raised by devout parents, the thrill of throwing their parents faith back in their face was an added bonus for the really angry rebel.

So, today, we have about 5% of the population claiming to be atheist and a few diehard activists who feel slighted trying to drive Christianity out of public life altogether, even though America was born of Christian principles that endure today, although tattered and torn for the constant assaults on them since the 1960's. I believe we'll survive this period of anti-Christian attitudes and the pseudo-sophistication of the young atheists mocking and denouncing 'religion', smugly full of distorted history and non-facts, pretending to fear an imminent theocracy in America if George W. Bush is re-elected and screaming that the religious folks 'prove it' or STFU. Times have certainly changed, when atheists were well enough respected but the religious were equally so, to now, when the religious are openly mocked and ridiculed in some quarters while the atheist is celebrated and considered the epitome of intelligence and wisdom on the face of the earth. They have no equal. They are 'enlightened', you see. God need not apply.