Who else is fed up with car mag's? - Page 2

97snakedriver · 01-24-2001, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inferno:
. American car makers did it to themselves by selling $hitty cars. Now I am not calling all of the cars $hitty, but there are a good number of crappy vehicles produced by the Big Three.

I don't think too many would have issues with this. If they do I would sugest taking a ride in 3 cylinder Geo Metro.

Quote:

The thing that makes this even more sad is the fact that they have all been buying or purchasing controlling interest in a lot of different foreign car manufacturers that make superior products.

Why is this sad? Jaguar was on the ropes; Ford bought them; Now they make some seriosly smooth cars (using engines co-designed by Ford and Jaguar engineers), while turning a profit. Same with Ashton Martin. Mazda is still up in the air, but the RX-7 follow up looks pretty freakin cool. Engineers get to make cool cars. We get to look at cool cars that overwise wouldn't have been made, and the luckier of us get to drive cool cars that wouldn't have been made. Sounds like a pretty deal all around to me.

Quote:

Maybe Ford should ditch the Taurus for the Mondeo and give the Focus a Cosworth engine. Maybe Dodge should import the Lancer as a Colt again, but this time put the turbo 4wd car that the rest of the world got or at least give the public a turbo Neon based on the old Eclipse engine(rumor has it they might, but that was also said when the Neon first came out).

Fine with me, but I'm sure some marketing
guys numbers probably say different.

bigwhitecobra · 01-24-2001, 07:59 PM

The real problem with getting REAL cars here is not the law makers, but the American companys. If the Skyline was brought in, which there is a company in CA that does, The auto makers union would litagate and file injuntions to have it removed. Such is the fate of most cars. Like the Eclipse GS-X, an all wheel drive turbo, Ford and GM got together to have the power output reduced so that their cars would be more comparable.
The proud Mustang has even had it fair share of corprate down sizing. Why do you think we have the "wine and cheese" Cobra? Yes, it's fast, but not as fast as the new SS and WS6. It's my opinion that GM had alot to do with it. When the general public relizes the power we collectivly have, then maybe we will get the 400+ Mustang we all want and deserve.

Unit 5302 · 01-24-2001, 08:37 PM

bigwhitecobraI think you'll find standardized crash testing, EPA restictions, and limited demand for ultra high powered exotic cars to be more than enough to keep many out of the US, regardless of what the automakers unions think.

You also seem to state that Ford and GM got together to detune the Eclipse, but GM alone has enough power to control what Ford builds? Come on now. Why doesn't GM force Ford to build motors with no more than 200hp then? Maybe GM's quality control problems are directly related to Ford filing injunctions against GM making quality products?

You certainly can import the Skyline. Not a prob, but they cannot be mass marketed and released here, they need to go through all the tests and tormenting of the government nutballs. I'm not saying Ford and GM might not show up to the meetings and try to exert some pressure to keep the Skyline out, but ultimately the US government decides what comes in and what stays out.

Inferno you mentioned the Cosworth engine for the Focus, well that 2.0 twin turbo has been around since 1994 in the Ford Escort overseas. The motor was incapable of passing our emissions standards at that time, let alone now. Plus that Ford Escort Cosworth XB (the single turbo predicessor to the RS) would have cost about $35,000 if it were to be mass produced and relased to the US. Also you indicate that it's bad that the domestic auto makers have begun to purchase overseas manufacturers. Mazda was in a heap of trouble when Ford eye'd them up. Jaguar and Aston Martin were practically headed for the auction blocks. Now Jaguar and Aston Martin have booming sales figures and are back as upper eschelon auto makers. How did Ford do it? They made those manufacturers focus on quality, and got them to produce solid, reliable, high performance vehicles that were no longer the butt of everyone's jokes. I'm not asking the motor mags to review a 1991 Tempo, or a 1990 Grand Am with a quad-4, or even for them to predict long term reliability. I'd just like to see a little fair play on the testing and reviewing of new cars.

MiracleMax The HP law kinda works on the honor system for modified cars, but any car with over 500hp from the factory cannot be registered here in MN.

inferno · 01-25-2001, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unit 5302:
You certainly can import the Skyline. Not a prob, but they cannot be mass marketed and released here, they need to go through all the tests and tormenting of the government nutballs. I'm not saying Ford and GM might not show up to the meetings and try to exert some pressure to keep the Skyline out, but ultimately the US government decides what comes in and what stays out.

I don't know if you are aware, but R34's, R33's, and R32's are now legal to be sold through a company called Motorex in the United States in all 50 states. Motorex went through all of the testing and bureaucratic bs to get these three gens of Skylines legal for sale in the U.S. Now do you really think that if a small company can get the current and previous two gens of Skylines legal for sale, that Nissan couldn't bring in the new R35 when it comes out if the really wanted to?

Quote:

Inferno you mentioned the Cosworth engine for the Focus, well that 2.0 twin turbo has been around since 1994 in the Ford Escort overseas. The motor was incapable of passing our emissions standards at that time, let alone now. Plus that Ford Escort Cosworth XB (the single turbo predicessor to the RS) would have cost about $35,000 if it were to be mass produced and relased to the US. Also you indicate that it's bad that the domestic auto makers have begun to purchase overseas manufacturers. Mazda was in a heap of trouble when Ford eye'd them up. Jaguar and Aston Martin were practically headed for the auction blocks. Now Jaguar and Aston Martin have booming sales figures and are back as upper eschelon auto makers. How did Ford do it? They made those manufacturers focus on quality, and got them to produce solid, reliable, high performance vehicles that were no longer the butt of everyone's jokes. I'm not asking the motor mags to review a 1991 Tempo, or a 1990 Grand Am with a quad-4, or even for them to predict long term reliability. I'd just like to see a little fair play on the testing and reviewing of new cars.

I know that motor was available since 94 in the Escort and I am not saying that all Foci should get a Cosworth engine. They have better performance out of the same engine in Europe. I am tired of people saying that certain motors wouldn't be smog legal in the U.S. because the truth is that there are very few changes that would need to be done to make them meet U.S. standards.

Also, I never said that it was bad for the Big Three to purchase all of these companies. I just said that since they have acquired these companies, they should use some of the technology in their U.S. model cars. A lot of American small cars have very little appeal because of a lack of quality when compared to other small cars which could change if the U.S. companies would use their new resources.

MrJo1094 · 01-26-2001, 01:32 PM

I say get over it. I aint buyin any stinkin ew car that is going to be worth 10k less in a year anyway. Buy an older venerable platform and build what you want. Dont get caught up in new cars. Unless you have megabucks to toss away. I am restoring an 83, 81, and 89 Fox Mustang. 89 daily driver. 83 Fuel injected racer/cruiser. and 81 Carbed stripped down bruiser. All coupes. 83,81 with 400+hp, and 89 around 300. All for less than 30K. Paid for, and insured for less than a new car per year. 89 newly painted, an the others this spring.

You subscribe to what you like. I dont take car and driver, or home and gardens, or freakin basket weaving monthly. Cause if it doesnt involve taking an old mustang apart, keep it. Thats just me. My wife thinks I am wasting my money on MMFF too, well, she needs her mags like I do. This is America. Buy what you want, and let me do it to. You want a new Skyline? Jump on in there and get you sum!! And bring it over, I would enjoy a ride!!!!!!!!!! P.S. Wanna race? we can 1094!!!!!!!!!

Unit 5302 · 01-26-2001, 04:06 PM

The only reason we state the engines won't pass emissions, is because it's the truth.

The 5.0 V-8 couldn't pass up coming emissions standards. Ford's top guys said the heads would need to be completely redesigned. Would you consider the development and production costs of an entirely new type of head an easy modification? Ford decided that the 5.0 would have to go, they couldn't justify keeping the pushrod motor when they had to invest about the same in it as they'd have to invest to make a Mustang specific 4.6.

What would happen if Ford were to put a significantly modified Cosworth engine (with different cams to pass emissions) into the Focus here? They'd have to bump the performance of the Mustang to maintain it's performance flagships reputation. Furthermore, since Cosworth is an F-1 engine designer and manufacturer, what makes you think enough of the Cosworth engines could be supplied if a mass production run was setup for the US? I think you'd also find people a little apprehensive about spending 35k on a Focus.

As far as using the technology, Ford already has all their technology. Ford has been manufacturing DOHC V-8's since the 1960's, and they are currently selling most vehicles quite well. Why fix it if it's not broken? Toyota seems to agree with Ford. Basically all they do is look at a Ford product, then figure out a way they can build something almost exactly the same, usually right down to the styling, add a couple mods and market it. Adding different technology adds expense. Adding expense to a lineup aiming at keeping decent cars price competitive is a way to force yourself right out of the market.

Actually I'd say you're mostly correct if you were speaking of Chrysler, but they have their own problems dealing with an overbearing Daimler group.

Anyway, what tech could Ford gain from Mazda (which Ford has no rights to), or Volvo, or Aston Martin, or Jaguar?

GM would no doubt have problems doing anything with tech from SAAB.

bigwhitecobra · 01-27-2001, 06:40 PM

Unit 5302, I agree with what you are saying, I just think that there is more to the story than simple emissions testing. I personally, would love to see a real HP compitition between Ford, Chevy and the rest of the world for that matter. But concidering we live in the most conservitive country in the world, it's not likely to happen. So, for now, I'll retract my last statement, and rethink my approach.

If it ain't broke, why bother fixing it? (the 5.0 power plant)

------------------
1989 GT- Vortech blown 306, Anderson 3" power pipe, Vortech S-Trim 14# boost, MSD-6BTM, black wrinkle finish Cobra valve covers(woohoo), world class T-5, 3.55 gears, custom sub-frame connectors, Cobra grille insert and rear valance, Saleen "whale" wing, 4 wheel disc conversion, est 1/4mile time of 10.5+/-
1994 Cobra- MAC cold air fender kit, Motorsport underdrive pulley's, MAC 21/2" off-road H pipe, SVO mufflers, 3.73 gears, E-303 cam, 13.417@101.335mph

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01-24-2001, 07:59 PM	#22
bigwhitecobra Huh? Whatcha said? Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,073	The real problem with getting REAL cars here is not the law makers, but the American companys. If the Skyline was brought in, which there is a company in CA that does, The auto makers union would litagate and file injuntions to have it removed. Such is the fate of most cars. Like the Eclipse GS-X, an all wheel drive turbo, Ford and GM got together to have the power output reduced so that their cars would be more comparable. The proud Mustang has even had it fair share of corprate down sizing. Why do you think we have the "wine and cheese" Cobra? Yes, it's fast, but not as fast as the new SS and WS6. It's my opinion that GM had alot to do with it. When the general public relizes the power we collectivly have, then maybe we will get the 400+ Mustang we all want and deserve.

01-24-2001, 08:37 PM	#23
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	bigwhitecobraI think you'll find standardized crash testing, EPA restictions, and limited demand for ultra high powered exotic cars to be more than enough to keep many out of the US, regardless of what the automakers unions think. You also seem to state that Ford and GM got together to detune the Eclipse, but GM alone has enough power to control what Ford builds? Come on now. Why doesn't GM force Ford to build motors with no more than 200hp then? Maybe GM's quality control problems are directly related to Ford filing injunctions against GM making quality products? You certainly can import the Skyline. Not a prob, but they cannot be mass marketed and released here, they need to go through all the tests and tormenting of the government nutballs. I'm not saying Ford and GM might not show up to the meetings and try to exert some pressure to keep the Skyline out, but ultimately the US government decides what comes in and what stays out. Inferno you mentioned the Cosworth engine for the Focus, well that 2.0 twin turbo has been around since 1994 in the Ford Escort overseas. The motor was incapable of passing our emissions standards at that time, let alone now. Plus that Ford Escort Cosworth XB (the single turbo predicessor to the RS) would have cost about $35,000 if it were to be mass produced and relased to the US. Also you indicate that it's bad that the domestic auto makers have begun to purchase overseas manufacturers. Mazda was in a heap of trouble when Ford eye'd them up. Jaguar and Aston Martin were practically headed for the auction blocks. Now Jaguar and Aston Martin have booming sales figures and are back as upper eschelon auto makers. How did Ford do it? They made those manufacturers focus on quality, and got them to produce solid, reliable, high performance vehicles that were no longer the butt of everyone's jokes. I'm not asking the motor mags to review a 1991 Tempo, or a 1990 Grand Am with a quad-4, or even for them to predict long term reliability. I'd just like to see a little fair play on the testing and reviewing of new cars. MiracleMax The HP law kinda works on the honor system for modified cars, but any car with over 500hp from the factory cannot be registered here in MN.

01-26-2001, 01:32 PM	#25
MrJo1094 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Holly Springs MS Posts: 5	I say get over it. I aint buyin any stinkin ew car that is going to be worth 10k less in a year anyway. Buy an older venerable platform and build what you want. Dont get caught up in new cars. Unless you have megabucks to toss away. I am restoring an 83, 81, and 89 Fox Mustang. 89 daily driver. 83 Fuel injected racer/cruiser. and 81 Carbed stripped down bruiser. All coupes. 83,81 with 400+hp, and 89 around 300. All for less than 30K. Paid for, and insured for less than a new car per year. 89 newly painted, an the others this spring. You subscribe to what you like. I dont take car and driver, or home and gardens, or freakin basket weaving monthly. Cause if it doesnt involve taking an old mustang apart, keep it. Thats just me. My wife thinks I am wasting my money on MMFF too, well, she needs her mags like I do. This is America. Buy what you want, and let me do it to. You want a new Skyline? Jump on in there and get you sum!! And bring it over, I would enjoy a ride!!!!!!!!!! P.S. Wanna race? we can 1094!!!!!!!!!

01-26-2001, 04:06 PM	#26
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	The only reason we state the engines won't pass emissions, is because it's the truth. The 5.0 V-8 couldn't pass up coming emissions standards. Ford's top guys said the heads would need to be completely redesigned. Would you consider the development and production costs of an entirely new type of head an easy modification? Ford decided that the 5.0 would have to go, they couldn't justify keeping the pushrod motor when they had to invest about the same in it as they'd have to invest to make a Mustang specific 4.6. What would happen if Ford were to put a significantly modified Cosworth engine (with different cams to pass emissions) into the Focus here? They'd have to bump the performance of the Mustang to maintain it's performance flagships reputation. Furthermore, since Cosworth is an F-1 engine designer and manufacturer, what makes you think enough of the Cosworth engines could be supplied if a mass production run was setup for the US? I think you'd also find people a little apprehensive about spending 35k on a Focus. As far as using the technology, Ford already has all their technology. Ford has been manufacturing DOHC V-8's since the 1960's, and they are currently selling most vehicles quite well. Why fix it if it's not broken? Toyota seems to agree with Ford. Basically all they do is look at a Ford product, then figure out a way they can build something almost exactly the same, usually right down to the styling, add a couple mods and market it. Adding different technology adds expense. Adding expense to a lineup aiming at keeping decent cars price competitive is a way to force yourself right out of the market. Actually I'd say you're mostly correct if you were speaking of Chrysler, but they have their own problems dealing with an overbearing Daimler group. Anyway, what tech could Ford gain from Mazda (which Ford has no rights to), or Volvo, or Aston Martin, or Jaguar? GM would no doubt have problems doing anything with tech from SAAB.

01-27-2001, 06:40 PM	#27
bigwhitecobra Huh? Whatcha said? Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,073	Unit 5302, I agree with what you are saying, I just think that there is more to the story than simple emissions testing. I personally, would love to see a real HP compitition between Ford, Chevy and the rest of the world for that matter. But concidering we live in the most conservitive country in the world, it's not likely to happen. So, for now, I'll retract my last statement, and rethink my approach. If it ain't broke, why bother fixing it? (the 5.0 power plant) ------------------ 1989 GT- Vortech blown 306, Anderson 3" power pipe, Vortech S-Trim 14# boost, MSD-6BTM, black wrinkle finish Cobra valve covers(woohoo), world class T-5, 3.55 gears, custom sub-frame connectors, Cobra grille insert and rear valance, Saleen "whale" wing, 4 wheel disc conversion, est 1/4mile time of 10.5+/- 1994 Cobra- MAC cold air fender kit, Motorsport underdrive pulley's, MAC 21/2" off-road H pipe, SVO mufflers, 3.73 gears, E-303 cam, 13.417@101.335mph