OK, That's it... Soap box up (Poll: Muslims call U.S. 'ruthless, arrogant') - Page 2

302 LX Eric · 03-01-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Well, #1 my name is NOT Kelley. It's Kell (Kale).

Well, #1, I am sorry. It was an honest mistake. I had a good friend years ago that I used to work with named Kelley. And, well, I guess my brain sees "Kell" and thinks "Kelley."

E

Mr 5 0 · 03-01-2002, 12:37 PM

Kell:

Although I said I would leave off this discussion, your posts indicate that you seem to have a need to engage me in it and so, in the interest of fairness, I'll respond to you against my better judgement, as I have no intention of defending Christianity to someone with a closed mind who simply wants to justify his animus toward people who don't accept his view of what faith in God and belief really mean.

First; your arrogance in assuming that I'm unable to contend with your attacks on Christianity and religion stop just short of being amusing. Kell, it may surprise you tp know that I've debated this subject with many older and much better informed people than you many times, both in person and over the internet and I've heard all the rationales you trot out to justify your position.

It's not your tired arguments that annoy me, it's the clear lack of respect for others beliefs that I find distasteful. Kell, did you really believe - for one moment - that anything you could possibly type and post here will have any effect on what or how I practice my faith? Are you that conceited? 'My whole world is threatened' by what Kell says about Christianity?

C'mon! Let's be serious, O.K.? I'm a big boy and although I don't wish to spend hours responding to all the diatribes against religion 'agnostics' like you always go on about, I certainly find your lack of belief just as foolish as you seem to find my religious convictions. So what?

Christianity has been misunderstood and misused for as long as it's been around. Men will always want power and religion was a good way to get it; that's still happening now in the mid-east; witness the late Talliban/Muslim government in Afghanistan and it's many oppressions and violence. Same old same old.

Kell, I have no need to 'defend' Christianity to you; the bible - the book that you admit you know little about, but still dismiss - explains it all very clearly to those who seek to study and learn, not mock and reject.

Unfortunately, you choose to be your own 'god', make your own rules and do as you think best. Fine. Do so. Who is going to stop you and if you're so comfortable and serene in this choice, why the hostility toward Christianity? We're not trying to 'convert' you.

No, it's not simply your rejection of religion I take issue with, it's the sneering, patronizing ('I'm sure you're a good Christian doing the best you can") attitude that I find offensive coming from non-believers like yourself. Kell, I can almost feel the pats on my head from you as you mock the bible and spout cliches about the 'evils' of religion when, in fact, what you (and Chris) really object to is how people use religion.

Granted, religion is very often used as a weapon of oppression and also as a tool to keep populations in line with what some dictator wishes. This is news to - who? Not to me. The fact is - and I can only speak for Christianity - that bible you disparage so readily doesn't teach this and of course, Jesus never taught this; in fact, he warned his apostles against acting like the religious leaders of the day and 'lording it' over the people. He was clear; Christians are to be servants, not masters. They serve God through serving their neighbor (fellow man).

So, Kell, my disagreement with you (and Chris) is this: You point to the abuses of religion and say it's practically 'evil' but - that's not right. Religion is not evil, mankind is inherently evil and misuses religion - but not all men do this, as you know. Christians have done much good in the world and continue to do so every day, unannounced and unrewarded by the praise of men, as Jesus taught.

Christians are called to be the Light of the World by reflecting Christ, but we utterly fail, as a group - but not all. You see Christians abusing their religion now and in the distant past and you then decide to be your own God (as agnostics believe God is unknowable) and set your own moral code and basically reject Christianity, then point out it's failings as justification for what you choose to do.

Fine.

I posted a lengthy message pointing out that religion, as practiced in America, is a good thing and that our freedoms allow us to be as religious as we please - or not at all and we can even debate about it, as we've done right here, but you responded with a rather sneering and negative post that I found somewhat offensive and harsh, and I responded in kind, honestly.

Having watched your past responses to those you disagree with, I know that you can be hostile when opposed and while you need to be opposed, I wished to simply say so and leave, not keep it going on and on. However, your two posts addressed to me - while unconvincing in total - did give me the motivation to at least respond back to you and not allow you to hold the very mistaken belief that I was either too angry (nope, just annoyed by your arrogant tone) or unable to reply with a cogent message. Neither is true of course and I hope this confirms that for you.

That said, my time is limited and I'll not re-live the entire church history with you or attempt to defend spiritual matters with someone who dismisses these things out of hand as you and Chris do, as a 'crutch' for weak-minded people to hold on to. Really. How patronizing and arrogant is that? Talk about self-justification!

Enough. Life is too short for bickering.

You hold your belief that religion and Christianity are somehow detrimental to society and I say you're foolish to even begin to believe that. I know many lives that were turned around by a true conversion to Christianity and I'm sorry that you, in your agnosticism, fail to see the value of Christianity but instead mock it and patronize those who are faithful to it.

So be it, Kell. This is America and we are all free to do as we choose with religion.

That's my only real point and I believe I've made it, as have you, yours. Let's not push it.

silver_pilate · 03-01-2002, 08:58 PM

Well put, Jim. I, for one (and I know I'm not the only one here), completely agree with you.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people who claim to be Christians who really have no idea what it means to be so. I can't count the times I've asked someone if they were a Christian only to have the response, "No...I'm a Methodist (or insert any other denomination)." That very response tells me that they know very little about what being Christian means. Christianity involves a personal Spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, and through him, the Father...reguardless of your denomination.

It involves accepting things on FAITH. I, for one, HAVE studied the Bible. I have searched my own heart, mind, and experiences, and have found Truth in the Bible, and I find it offensive that people call me weak-minded for believing in something other-worldly (I'm not necessarily referring to any comments made here...but rather things I have heard from those claiming to be athiests).

I've had people tell me that I use religion as a "crutch"...that I can't accept a world without some "blind faith" in a "mythical" God. They call ME weak minded for believing in God, and yet they use the name of my God in curses everyday.

I ask who it is that has the weak mind...one who can rationally believe in something unseen, or one who flatly refuses to accept something that he/she doesn't understand? There are a great number of things in this world of which we have no understanding. There are things that exist that science cannot explain. Science itself is based soley on theories. Even scientific laws stand only as long as they are not disproved by the newest crunching of the numbers. And yet they tell me that God cannot exist. Yeah....

Anyway, I've had the fortunate opportunity to study both the scientific and the spiritual aspect of life. Many people think that science and religion contradict each other. On the contrary, I believe that they work hand-in-hand. I've been there and done that in science. I've been through the entire human body with a scalple, scissors, and forceps. If it's there, I've seen it, touched it, held , or cut it. And in all of my experiences, everything I've seen has only served to strengthen my beliefs.

Well, anyway...I've probably said way more than I needed to say. I merely wanted to express my opinion on the matter of religion and not leave Jim to pick up the whole bill by himself. I, like Jim, am not going to try and "convert" you (unless you wanna talk....if so...give me a call

). You are free to believe as you wish to. That is the beauty of America, and that's the main reason why we haven't torn this nation apart with religious/ethnic wars as has happened in certain other regions of the world. This post wasn't meant to attack anyone...just to defend what I believe.

--nathan

PKRWUD · 03-02-2002, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silver_pilate
This post wasn't meant to attack anyone...just to defend what I believe.

--nathan

More power to you!

BTW, the whole "life" thing is pretty amazing, isn't it? Living, breathing, thinking cells. Pretty gnarly.

1965GTO · 03-04-2002, 02:50 AM

Not belonging to any religion I consider myself as being neutral and objective on the subject. However I am not an expert either. But from my experiences having lived in other countries etc. I would have to say that the Buddhist religion appears to be the most contented and non-interfering. The Muslims seem to really bother people as was seen in Yugoslavia and India. All the Middle Eastern countries seem to have an extraordinary amount of a**es. I don't need a religion that can't except anyone elses or their lack of any religion. Israel is going to get fed up and twist off one of these days. As far as muslems or anyone else not liking the U.S. who cares? I've heard that before and it wasn't true. Most countries watch our TV and movies and want to be just like us.

03-01-2002, 12:37 PM	#22
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	The quality of faith Kell: Although I said I would leave off this discussion, your posts indicate that you seem to have a need to engage me in it and so, in the interest of fairness, I'll respond to you against my better judgement, as I have no intention of defending Christianity to someone with a closed mind who simply wants to justify his animus toward people who don't accept his view of what faith in God and belief really mean. First; your arrogance in assuming that I'm unable to contend with your attacks on Christianity and religion stop just short of being amusing. Kell, it may surprise you tp know that I've debated this subject with many older and much better informed people than you many times, both in person and over the internet and I've heard all the rationales you trot out to justify your position. It's not your tired arguments that annoy me, it's the clear lack of respect for others beliefs that I find distasteful. Kell, did you really believe - for one moment - that anything you could possibly type and post here will have any effect on what or how I practice my faith? Are you that conceited? 'My whole world is threatened' by what Kell says about Christianity? C'mon! Let's be serious, O.K.? I'm a big boy and although I don't wish to spend hours responding to all the diatribes against religion 'agnostics' like you always go on about, I certainly find your lack of belief just as foolish as you seem to find my religious convictions. So what? Christianity has been misunderstood and misused for as long as it's been around. Men will always want power and religion was a good way to get it; that's still happening now in the mid-east; witness the late Talliban/Muslim government in Afghanistan and it's many oppressions and violence. Same old same old. Kell, I have no need to 'defend' Christianity to you; the bible - the book that you admit you know little about, but still dismiss - explains it all very clearly to those who seek to study and learn, not mock and reject. Unfortunately, you choose to be your own 'god', make your own rules and do as you think best. Fine. Do so. Who is going to stop you and if you're so comfortable and serene in this choice, why the hostility toward Christianity? We're not trying to 'convert' you. No, it's not simply your rejection of religion I take issue with, it's the sneering, patronizing ('I'm sure you're a good Christian doing the best you can") attitude that I find offensive coming from non-believers like yourself. Kell, I can almost feel the pats on my head from you as you mock the bible and spout cliches about the 'evils' of religion when, in fact, what you (and Chris) really object to is how people use religion. Granted, religion is very often used as a weapon of oppression and also as a tool to keep populations in line with what some dictator wishes. This is news to - who? Not to me. The fact is - and I can only speak for Christianity - that bible you disparage so readily doesn't teach this and of course, Jesus never taught this; in fact, he warned his apostles against acting like the religious leaders of the day and 'lording it' over the people. He was clear; Christians are to be servants, not masters. They serve God through serving their neighbor (fellow man). So, Kell, my disagreement with you (and Chris) is this: You point to the abuses of religion and say it's practically 'evil' but - that's not right. Religion is not evil, mankind is inherently evil and misuses religion - but not all men do this, as you know. Christians have done much good in the world and continue to do so every day, unannounced and unrewarded by the praise of men, as Jesus taught. Christians are called to be the Light of the World by reflecting Christ, but we utterly fail, as a group - but not all. You see Christians abusing their religion now and in the distant past and you then decide to be your own God (as agnostics believe God is unknowable) and set your own moral code and basically reject Christianity, then point out it's failings as justification for what you choose to do. Fine. I posted a lengthy message pointing out that religion, as practiced in America, is a good thing and that our freedoms allow us to be as religious as we please - or not at all and we can even debate about it, as we've done right here, but you responded with a rather sneering and negative post that I found somewhat offensive and harsh, and I responded in kind, honestly. Having watched your past responses to those you disagree with, I know that you can be hostile when opposed and while you need to be opposed, I wished to simply say so and leave, not keep it going on and on. However, your two posts addressed to me - while unconvincing in total - did give me the motivation to at least respond back to you and not allow you to hold the very mistaken belief that I was either too angry (nope, just annoyed by your arrogant tone) or unable to reply with a cogent message. Neither is true of course and I hope this confirms that for you. That said, my time is limited and I'll not re-live the entire church history with you or attempt to defend spiritual matters with someone who dismisses these things out of hand as you and Chris do, as a 'crutch' for weak-minded people to hold on to. Really. How patronizing and arrogant is that? Talk about self-justification! Enough. Life is too short for bickering. You hold your belief that religion and Christianity are somehow detrimental to society and I say you're foolish to even begin to believe that. I know many lives that were turned around by a true conversion to Christianity and I'm sorry that you, in your agnosticism, fail to see the value of Christianity but instead mock it and patronize those who are faithful to it. So be it, Kell. This is America and we are all free to do as we choose with religion. That's my only real point and I believe I've made it, as have you, yours. Let's not push it.

03-01-2002, 08:58 PM	#23
silver_pilate DURKA DURKA!! Join Date: Sep 1997 Location: Lubbock, TX...(TX panhandle) Posts: 1,418	Well put, Jim. I, for one (and I know I'm not the only one here), completely agree with you. Unfortunately, there are a large number of people who claim to be Christians who really have no idea what it means to be so. I can't count the times I've asked someone if they were a Christian only to have the response, "No...I'm a Methodist (or insert any other denomination)." That very response tells me that they know very little about what being Christian means. Christianity involves a personal Spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, and through him, the Father...reguardless of your denomination. It involves accepting things on FAITH. I, for one, HAVE studied the Bible. I have searched my own heart, mind, and experiences, and have found Truth in the Bible, and I find it offensive that people call me weak-minded for believing in something other-worldly (I'm not necessarily referring to any comments made here...but rather things I have heard from those claiming to be athiests). I've had people tell me that I use religion as a "crutch"...that I can't accept a world without some "blind faith" in a "mythical" God. They call ME weak minded for believing in God, and yet they use the name of my God in curses everyday. I ask who it is that has the weak mind...one who can rationally believe in something unseen, or one who flatly refuses to accept something that he/she doesn't understand? There are a great number of things in this world of which we have no understanding. There are things that exist that science cannot explain. Science itself is based soley on theories. Even scientific laws stand only as long as they are not disproved by the newest crunching of the numbers. And yet they tell me that God cannot exist. Yeah.... Anyway, I've had the fortunate opportunity to study both the scientific and the spiritual aspect of life. Many people think that science and religion contradict each other. On the contrary, I believe that they work hand-in-hand. I've been there and done that in science. I've been through the entire human body with a scalple, scissors, and forceps. If it's there, I've seen it, touched it, held , or cut it. And in all of my experiences, everything I've seen has only served to strengthen my beliefs. Well, anyway...I've probably said way more than I needed to say. I merely wanted to express my opinion on the matter of religion and not leave Jim to pick up the whole bill by himself. I, like Jim, am not going to try and "convert" you (unless you wanna talk....if so...give me a call). You are free to believe as you wish to. That is the beauty of America, and that's the main reason why we haven't torn this nation apart with religious/ethnic wars as has happened in certain other regions of the world. This post wasn't meant to attack anyone...just to defend what I believe. --nathan __________________ '91 GT, Coast 347, 9.5:1 compression, full intake, Wolverine 1087 cam, exhaust, Keith Craft ported Windsor Jr. Irons (235 cfm intake, 195 cfm exhaust), AOD, PI 3500 converter, Lentech valve body, 3.73's (4.10's in the works), and Yokohama ES100's out back. Daily Car: '04 Infiniti G35 Sedan 6MT

03-04-2002, 02:50 AM	#25
1965GTO Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dupo,ill Posts: 219	Not belonging to any religion I consider myself as being neutral and objective on the subject. However I am not an expert either. But from my experiences having lived in other countries etc. I would have to say that the Buddhist religion appears to be the most contented and non-interfering. The Muslims seem to really bother people as was seen in Yugoslavia and India. All the Middle Eastern countries seem to have an extraordinary amount of a**es. I don't need a religion that can't except anyone elses or their lack of any religion. Israel is going to get fed up and twist off one of these days. As far as muslems or anyone else not liking the U.S. who cares? I've heard that before and it wasn't true. Most countries watch our TV and movies and want to be just like us.