President Bush

[RBatson]

As far as the tax discussion..

I just got off a 13hr shift and really should have gone to bed but I just have to check the internet first, for some reason. I started making searches on the Bush tax plan and I find the whitehouse site and the "Citizens for Tax Justice" site. They both have figures up.. some the same, some different. I study it for a little while and try to figure out what each is trying to hide. I found it.. the truth. It hit me in the face like a brick!

Here's the truth: The rich do benefit the most. The republicians are trying to hide the fact that the rich will benefit the most from the tax cuts and they will be saving more than what "The U.S. median income for a family of four" makes in a year. Actually the top one percent, folks who make over $373k, will be saving an average of $53,123. While those making between $15-27k are saving an average of $364. That's what the CTJ is proclaiming and its the truth. Its a hard pill to swallow for the general public, seeing as the general public is the working class. I personally will be saving 14.5% while someone in the top 1% will be saving 37.6%. That is what the Republican party is trying the hide. The white house site shows the top percentage as anyone making over $166,500. That's close to what my parents bring in and they are far from what I consider rich, my friend.

What the Democrats are trying to hide: That those in the top tax bracket pay more of a percentage in taxes than the rest of us. The folks making over $297,350 pay 39.6%, they try to side track us from this fact. After the tax cuts the folks who pay over $166,500 will still be paying 33% of thier income(on average). For some reason the Republicans have that as the top tax bracket.

I'm not done but I'm tired as hell.. I guess I could try to debate the rest with ya.

And yes, I do think you are close minded and set in your ways. I don't think I could change your mind with a gun to your head.

[RBatson]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0

That's another absurdity. Where do you get this gloom-and-doom nonsense from? DU? Mortgage rates are the lowest in history because the economy is expanding rapidly, interest rates on bank funds is low and plenty of money is available to loan for homes and cars. The U.S. median income for a family of four is a bit over $42,000. The U.S,. is doing great and you try to pretend as if it's the Great Depression. That may play with the uninformed here Rick but you're simply wrong and on this 'declining economy' pose you choose to adopt. Very wrong.

Wrong Jim, The mortgage rate is low because consumer confidence is low.. was low. Its picking back up now and rates will follow soon.

I'll tell you just how bad it is Jim.. Many folks are out of work and out of unemployment benefits. The home market is hopping right now. One reason is because the mortgage rate is low, that is why its low.. to stimulate homeownership. Many folks have lost thier home and that contributes to the home sales frenzy as well.

Personally, my retirement has gone to hell. It happened just last November. My benefits suffered as well. Know why? Because the economy is so bad. You can't deny it Jim, Bush doesn't. Do I need to post a link? I was looking at retiring at the age of 52 and now I have to work until the age of 62.. That's 43 yrs to get my retirement Jim. I'd have worked for UPS from the age of 19 to the age of 62. What the hell am I going to do at the age of 62 Jim? Go surfing?

We have a huge middle class, living a life of luxury that other nations can only wish for and we have a large wealthy population,, the majority of them self-made people (not inherited wealth). Yet you want to whine that you have to pay taxes and that the 'rich' don't pay enough, even at 39%? That's unrealistic in the extreme.

When was the last 16hr day that you pulled? I can go out and buy things but "lap of luxury"... I don't think so.

More than 'a couple'. You look at America: land of the free, home of the brave and one of the richest countries on earth and see nothing but 'problems'. How sad for you.

Why is that sad for me? Everyone has problems.. sad that I notice we have problems? I still live my life the way I want, don't feel bad for me.

Most people don't have $20 - 25,000. or more in cash to lay out for a new car. I didn't say that it always makes sense to finance but with the very low-to-no interest rates on car loans, one would do well to take advantage of the deal. Millions have.

You hit that one on the head.. most of us don't. Evidently the ones getting the $55k tax cut do. I don't begrudge them either. Hell, I'd hate to think I busted my ass to make over $400k and I got killed in taxes.. How do I get to that point Jim? You guys hiring??

You seem to be ignoring the reality of the dire situation in Kuwait that I described. Rick, wake up. Please. America was attacked by Muslim terrorists on September 11, 2001. Almost 3,000 innocent people died. Since then, the Bush administration has been fighting back and doing so on many fronts, the invasion of Iraq being only one of them. The notion that we invade countries because we feel like it or want to play 'policeman' is ridiculous. America responded to an attack. What part of that do you still refuse to get?

LOL, I get it bro, I get it! I know something had to be done, hell give me a weapon(I actually had a dream about it). Its how we got to this point I have the problem with.. We shouldn't have gone in back in 91 but we did so.. we should have finished it and we didn't so now we are where we are.

Yes, hindsight. The same people who now claim that they would have supported taking Saddam Hussein out in 1991 were many of the same folks who lobbied against invading Iraq in 2003. "Oh, but that's different" they claim. No way. As for opposing views, yes, they help define issues and in Ameriac, we're free to express them. Works for me.

I don't know any of these people.


While being open to new thought.. It really pisses me off to be called a communist.

[mustardjohn]

Who called you a communist? Socialist maybe. Most of Europe is socialist. I can't see that it has done much for them.

I am still wondering what you are going to do with all this extra tax money from the rich. Are you going to pay less personally? Give it to someone who makes less than you? Let the government doll it out to whoever has a good story about how burdened they are having to pay all those bills especially since they put so much down the slot machine last night.

It sure sounds like you are unhappy with what you are paying and want someone else to pay it for you. Its not fair that those rich sobs can affort a better car when we are all struggling to make notes on a V6 Mustang.

I think the people that know how to make money know a lot more about how to spend it wisely than the goverment does. Ever work with a nonprofit group to raise money? Guess who not only pays the most taxes but also gives the most to chariety. Maybe we ought to close that loophole too.

It makes a great campaign speech to sock to those rich B*st*rds but until someone has a better idea of what to do with the money other than to redistribute unearned wealth. I am for letting the ones that know how to make it spend it on earning more and if they get a better car than me, a better house, better doctors, etc. out of the deal they earned it.

[mustardjohn]

The town I live in had two or three very very wealty families. They made their money in oil, timber, etc. and were definitely not taxed as they would have been today. They built a couple of large churches, an art museum full of the some of the worlds best art, a first class theater for the performing arts, one of their placial homes is now part of the local university and serves the public in many ways like wedding receptions, etc (my kid worked there). They built two country clubs with golf courses that are open for memebership today. They created a park in the middle of the city that is about one hundred acres and a county airport. They left a foundation that is still very well off that funds a number of beneficial functions. All of this employs workers and brings visitors to the area.

Lets tax the hell out of these type folks... It just ain't fair not to mention the devistated self esteem of all those folks who have to look at this and feel inadequate because they can't do it too.

Yeah we ought to break this up and dole out the money to those who really deserve it. Those rich sobs were only paying 39% when it should have been at least 80%. I am sure the government would have done all this for the community had they collected more taxes.

[mustardjohn]

Oh yeah and I forgot they opened a savings and loan and funded many peoples mortgages, including mine. Sure they made money off of it but again employed many people at the bank over the years.

Money is like energy. It can really do things when it is concentrated. The question is where should it be concentrated. In the government or in the hands of individuals. I vote for individuals for the most part. If all us working folks want to get together and fund our own retirements and medical coverage with some left over for defense and roads that fine. But look what happens to us when the government collects that money and manages it for us. Social Security is a good example. Nearly bankrupt. We would have been better off letting some rich banker manage the money and make some for himself while he was at it like everybody does with 401 K and IRA money or would you have the goverment manage that too.

I will get around to Bush and Iraq when I get back from a trip I am going on. Hope by then you will have decided what to do with all the extra tax money you want to collect from those rich sobs only payng 39%.

[mustardjohn]

Originally posted by RBatson


And yes, I do think you are close minded and set in your ways. I don't think I could change your mind with a gun to your head.

Where did this come from? Sounds like you are giving up. It just ain't fair is it. Hows your self esteem? Feelings hurt?

We got a lot more to talk about. Like the perception that foreign labor is just cheap and that is why it is taking our jobs. In my mind it is tied in to the other post on gay marriage. If you aren't bored with this conversation, I will tell you why I think that.

[RBatson]

First, I associate socialism with communism and if I misunderstood you and Jim, I need to apologize.. I apologize.

Second, I think you didn't get my point on the tax issue. After looking at both sides I've come to the conclusion that folks making over $166,500 are paying too much tax. One problem is that the president says the tax breaks are giving the poor and working class some much needed break, while the Democrats point out that the rich are benefitting the most. They are and they are paying too much of a percentage. Just don't say its in place to help the poor. If you don't want someone to call you on it. The poor are only saying 0.9% but they don't pay much(if any) taxes to start with so how are they going to save. The problem is.. its kind of hard to raise a family on $25k a yr.

I also agree with you on the welfare issue. Some folks get it that don't need it.

The main reason I usually don't get into discussions about religion and polotics is because it seems to explode and folks get upset and no one comes away with anything.. usually. I still consider Jim a friend and probably always will. That being said, I think its time for me to take a break from the internet.

[RBatson]

Originally posted by mustardjohn
Where did this come from? Sounds like you are giving up. It just ain't fair is it. Hows your self esteem? Feelings hurt?

It comes from 7 yrs of knowing someone.

My self esteem is intact, thank you. My feelings aren't hurt either.

Are you trying to antagonize me?

[mustardjohn]

Originally posted by RBatson
It comes from 7 yrs of knowing someone.

My self esteem is intact, thank you. My feelings aren't hurt either.

Are you trying to antagonize me?

Not at all. Just trying to illustrate how the fairness argument doesn't work for me. If all the discussion is about is whether something is fair or not then to me it is not a discussion of issues but of emotions.

I think we are reaching some common gound. Yes it is damn hard to raise a family on $25K but more subsidy, more wealth transfer, via the tax code is not the answer.

Our only way out is education, real education. Not gay day and cultral studies or books like King and King or it takes a village to raise a child. Science and math and business education along with a dose of political science or what used to be called civics.

Our jobs are going out of this country not just because the labor is cheap but cheap and SMART. The cheap part will work itself out ovre time as the standard of living improves around the word. The smart part is up to us. And as long as we let the education system be used as a tool for driving political correctness and reaching the lowest common denominator we are doomed. Vouchers are a great idea. Let people choose where they can get relevant education. (maybe they could teach me to spell).

To me this is how the gay marriage issue ties in and a multitude of other immorale themes. They are not productive and are not things the competition is focusing on. Put them on the back burner and lets get on with staying competitive from a strong fundamental educational base.

And we have not even touched on morales and how this keeps the rich in line and causing them to want to do good things as opposed to rip us off because they are smarter than we are.

But this is a Mustang site after all and maybe we ought to stick to that.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by RBatson :

Wrong Jim, The mortgage rate is low because consumer confidence is low.. was low. Its picking back up now and rates will follow soon.

I'll tell you just how bad it is Jim.. Many folks are out of work and out of unemployment benefits. The home market is hopping right now. One reason is because the mortgage rate is low, that is why its low.. to stimulate homeownership. Many folks have lost thier home and that contributes to the home sales frenzy as well.

You are misinformed, Rick. Home sales were up 9% in 2003 and were up in 2002, 5% over 2001. New home starts are booming and the average new home price is $170,000. Consumer confidence is fine and millions are buying new homes and cars and refinancing their existing homes to cash in the equity. This year, inflation may creep up and increase the mortagage interest rates a bit but to claim that the rates are low because no one can afford a home and then see home sales climbing beyond any previous numbers is to ignore reality, something you are free to do on your own, but don't try to sell it here. The thing is that in some areas of the country you'll see a real employment decline and some people lose their homes to foreclosure - but other areas are doing great. This is typical in a nation of 290 million people spread over 51 states. Not every area is going to be equal. Another factor is that many folks simply live too close to their income with little to fall back on and when their job ends they are about a month away from real financial trouble. That is more a result of poor money management and the fact that we pay so much in taxes that we have less every year to actually spend, much less to save, even though inflation is next to nothing, then 'consumer confidence'.

Personally, my retirement has gone to hell. It happened just last November. My benefits suffered as well. Know why? Because the economy is so bad. You can't deny it Jim, Bush doesn't. Do I need to post a link? I was looking at retiring at the age of 52 and now I have to work until the age of 62. That's 43 yrs to get my retirement Jim. I'd have worked for UPS from the age of 19 to the age of 62. What the hell am I going to do at the age of 62 Jim? Go surfing?

I feel sorry for you Rick - really - but blaming your financial troubles on the president of the United States is absurd. Of course the economy has been in a decline - since late 2000 in fact - and the events of 9/11/01 exacerbated the problem but the U.S. economy has been on a steady incline for the past few months and will be back to normal soon. The Bush tax cuts didn't do all of it but they certainly helped make the current economic recovery possible, something you seem to ignore - while blaming Bush for the loss in your retirement funds. That's not logical or even fair, Rick. In any case, I hope your retirement funds recover but if you're in a 501k then you'll always be somewhat dependent on the stock market and the many variables that affect it. That's the inherent risk in investing - in anything. It should go up but it can always go down, too.

When was the last 16hr day that you pulled? I can go out and buy things but "lap of luxury"... I don't think so.

Rick, I was simply comparing the standard of living in the United States to almost anywhere else on earth. We're spoiled. We have a great life, materially, and when we have to sacrifice something we cry and carry on like babies about how hard we work. This country is flooded with immigrants who would kill to have the material life we all take for granted here. Not that I begrude anyone anything but with a median family income of over $42,000. per year I don't think we can complain too much.

Why is that sad for me? Everyone has problems.. sad that I notice we have problems? I still live my life the way I want, don't feel bad for me.

Your outlook is pessimistic when optimism is called for. You live in the greatest, freest, richest country on the face of the earth and you are unhappy. You see 'problems'. I see a world of opportunity and freedom to do as we wish, something few other nations can offer in anywhere close to the same measure, including socialist Europe.

You hit that one on the head.. most of us don't. Evidently the ones getting the $55k tax cut do. I don't begrudge them either. Hell, I'd hate to think I busted my ass to make over $400k and I got killed in taxes.. How do I get to that point Jim? You guys hiring?

You choose to do what you do and to work where you do, just as everyone does. There are a plethora of reasons why some do better than others in life. Missed opportunities and self-limiting actions are the bulk of it. In any case, I'll remind you again that the top 1% pay over 36% of all income taxes. One percent of the (top) income taxpayers pay thirty-six percent of all the income taxes. I think that's beyond fair, Rick. Your personal situation may be clouding your judgement here, i suspect.

LOL, I get it bro, I get it! I know something had to be done, hell give me a weapon(I actually had a dream about it). Its how we got to this point I have the problem with.. We shouldn't have gone in back in 91 but we did so.. we should have finished it and we didn't so now we are where we are.

Hindsight is still 20/20.

I don't know any of these people.

I do. Many of them are Democrat congressmen and Senators.

While being open to new thought.. It really pisses me off to be called a communist.

I didn't call you a communist, Rick. I said that you favored socialism, often a forerunner to communism but not the same thing. France is socialist but it's still a democracy. China is communist and it's a dictatorshiop, as all true communist governments are. You appear to favor socialism. Too bad.

[RBatson]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0


You are misinformed, Rick. Home sales were up 9% in 2003 and were up in 2002, 5% over 2001. New home starts are booming and the average new home price is $170,000.

I'm not misinformed, Jim. The reason home sales are up are because the interest rate is so low. People with jobs are buying houses they weren't able to afford, previously.. because of the rates. You have an opinion and find figures that you think support your claims. They don't, but you think it sounds good, I guess.

Consumer confidence is fine and millions are buying new homes and cars and refinancing their existing homes to cash in the equity.

They're refinancing to take advantage of the better rate, not to get the equity out(though some do get some of the equity in the process). Consumer confidence hasn't been real great for awhile but as I said, its getting better. It appears we live in the same country but two completely different worlds.

This year, inflation may creep up and increase the mortagage interest rates a bit but to claim that the rates are low because no one can afford a home and then see home sales climbing beyond any previous numbers is to ignore reality, something you are free to do on your own, but don't try to sell it here.

Mortgage rates have already started to climb. I just explained why homes are selling.

The thing is that in some areas of the country you'll see a real employment decline and some people lose their homes to foreclosure - but other areas are doing great. This is typical in a nation of 290 million people spread over 51 states. Not every area is going to be equal. Another factor is that many folks simply live too close to their income with little to fall back on and when their job ends they are about a month away from real financial trouble. That is more a result of poor money management and the fact that we pay so much in taxes that we have less every year to actually spend, much less to save, even though inflation is next to nothing, then 'consumer confidence'.

Now I'm getting a headache. You seem to be talking in circles. The fact of the matter is that bankruptcy is at an all time high. Although unemployment is going down, its the lower paid jobs that are on the rise.

I feel sorry for you Rick - really - but blaming your financial troubles on the president of the United States is absurd.

I'm not looking for sympathy, just making a point. I didn't blame it directly on the president, the economy yes. It appears you are blaming it on the president though.

Of course the economy has been in a decline - since late 2000 in fact -

Circles I tell ya.

and the events of 9/11/01 exacerbated the problem but the U.S. economy has been on a steady incline for the past few months and will be back to normal soon.

So you are agreeing with something I already stated?

The Bush tax cuts didn't do all of it but they certainly helped make the current economic recovery possible, something you seem to ignore - while blaming Bush for the loss in your retirement funds. That's not logical or even fair, Rick. In any case, I hope your retirement funds recover but if you're in a 501k then you'll always be somewhat dependent on the stock market and the many variables that affect it. That's the inherent risk in investing - in anything. It should go up but it can always go down, too.

I realize it fluctuates, that's the nature of the beast. While I have some in a 401k, most of my investment is in a real estate property.

Your outlook is pessimistic when optimism is called for. You live in the greatest, freest, richest country on the face of the earth and you are unhappy. You see 'problems'. I see a world of opportunity and freedom to do as we wish, something few other nations can offer in anywhere close to the same measure, including socialist Europe.

I don't consider it being pessimistic or optimistic, I call it being realistic. Hey, if we didn't realize the problems that we have we would never progress.

You choose to do what you do and to work where you do, just as everyone does. There are a plethora of reasons why some do better than others in life. Missed opportunities and self-limiting actions are the bulk of it. In any case, I'll remind you again that the top 1% pay over 36% of all income taxes. One percent of the (top) income taxpayers pay thirty-six percent of all the income taxes. I think that's beyond fair, Rick. Your personal situation may be clouding your judgement here, i suspect.

You're right, life is a series of choices and nothing is for certain(except death and taxes). I choose the road to security. Even the secure road has its risk. Why are you still preaching about the tax rate?

Hindsight is still 20/20.

LOL! Catchy tune.

I do. Many of them are Democrat congressmen and Senators.

If they did, they were the minority.

I didn't call you a communist, Rick. I said that you favored socialism, often a forerunner to communism but not the same thing. France is socialist but it's still a democracy. China is communist and it's a dictatorshiop, as all true communist governments are. You appear to favor socialism. Too bad.

Heeh, it can be very frustrating having a discussion with you. let me give you a quote from the president..

"These are the basic ideas that guide my tax policy: lower income taxes for all, with the greatest help for those most in need. Everyone who pays income taxes benefits — while the highest percentage tax cuts go to the lowest income Americans. I believe this is a formula for continuing the prosperity we've enjoyed, but also expanding it in ways we have yet to discover. It is an economics of inclusion. It is the agenda of a government that knows its limits and shows its heart."

Now, who benefits from the tax cuts the most?

I'm wondering if you work for the president, I know you are a supporter. You seem to be so much a supporter that you'll even contradict him, to support him. You speak with a forked tongue, white man. Heeh.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by RBatson :

I'm not misinformed, Jim. The reason home sales are up are because the interest rate is so low. People with jobs are buying houses they weren't able to afford, previously.. because of the rates. You have an opinion and find figures that you think support your claims. They don't, but you think it sounds good, I guess.

The sales figures are what they are, Rick, whether they agree with my opinion or not so please don't deny reality here because it doesn't jibe with your opinion. Mortgage rates are low, home sales are up and that's because people can afford to buy homes and qualify for mortgages, undrcutting your premise that interest rates are low because no one is buying. See how that works? Let's be honest here.

They're refinancing to take advantage of the better rate, not to get the equity out (though some do get some of the equity in the process). Consumer confidence hasn't been real great for awhile but as I said, its getting better. It appears we live in the same country but two completely different worlds.

As I said, you can't deny home sales and the fact remians that you're choosing to see everything financial in a negative light, probably due to your own financial setbacks recently. Everyone isn't having the same experience, Rick.

Mortgage rates have already started to climb. I just explained why homes are selling.

As I've already shown, the facts prove you wrong and the rates are rising, a tiny bit, from 40-year lows, so the result is minor in the cost of a home.

Now I'm getting a headache. You seem to be talking in circles. The fact of the matter is that bankruptcy is at an all time high. Although unemployment is going down, its the lower paid jobs that are on the rise.

I simply stipulated that - of course - unemployment is high and the local economy is poor in SOME areas of the country. It usually is - somewhere. You can't expect every state to be economically flush all the time. I'm attempting to be factual and you act as if I'm confusing you. Let's get real, shall we?

Bankruptcies are rising, partly due to high credit card debt among other things but if - as you claim - new jobs are mostly low-end, how is it that the median income in America keeps rising every year? That should really give you a headache! Fact is that most jobs pay well and the 'low paying new jobs' myth is a creation of Democrat politicians trying 'talk the economy down' in 2004, as they did in 1992. "The worst economy in 50 years"...according to Bill Clinton. It wasn't even close, then or now and politicians trying to make it appear so seem to have a willing audience in folks like you who think that because they have financial setbacks the whole country is going broke. Nonsense. The numbers prove that a lie.

I'm not looking for sympathy, just making a point. I didn't blame it directly on the president, the economy yes. It appears you are blaming it on the president though.

Nonsense. You're inferring - along with John Kerry, I might add, that President Bush is somehow responsible for any economic downturns and I'm opposing both that faulty premise and the lie that the economy is bad and people are going broke, or the 21st century version of going broke.

Circles I tell ya. So you are agreeing with something I already stated?

Oh boy. I stipulated that the U.S. economy HAS been in a downturn for the past three years but you claim that today - right now - it's still performing poorly. I very much disagreed with that and have shown it to be a mistaken premise with no real basis in fact. That's my point here.

I realize it fluctuates, that's the nature of the beast. While I have some in a 401k, most of my investment is in a real estate property.

At least you're realistic but if real estste is losing value for you it's poorly invested. The market is booming and values are way up from a few years ago, at least in the northeast.

I don't consider it being pessimistic or optimistic, I call it being realistic. Hey, if we didn't realize the problems that we have we would never progress.

Recognizing 'problems' is prudent but manufacturing them is foolish and unrealistic. The sharp guys see so-called 'problems' as potential opportunities.

You're right, life is a series of choices and nothing is for certain(except death and taxes). I choose the road to security. Even the secure road has its risk. Why are you still preaching about the tax rate?

Because myths about the 'rich' not paying their 'fair share' in taxes die hard and need to be shown for the fallacy and manufactured class envy they are really based on.

LOL! Catchy tune.

Er, O.K.

If they did, they were the minority.

Perhaps. I don't have a head-count.

Heeh, it can be very frustrating having a discussion with you. let me give you a quote from the president..

"These are the basic ideas that guide my tax policy: lower income taxes for all, with the greatest help for those most in need. Everyone who pays income taxes benefits — while the highest percentage tax cuts go to the lowest income Americans. I believe this is a formula for continuing the prosperity we've enjoyed, but also expanding it in ways we have yet to discover. It is an economics of inclusion. It is the agenda of a government that knows its limits and shows its heart."

Now, who benefits from the tax cuts the most?

You really need to stay away from those left-wing websites Rick, they'll rot your mind. The lowest-income Americans pay NO, repeat: NO income taxes at all. That meshes with President Bush's objectives. The top 10% of U.S. taxpayers get bigger cuts if you look at it one way, less another. Statistics are deceiving, as you should know. In fact, the top taxpayers now pay a higher percentage of their incomes in taxes then they did even ten years ago. I don't have the links handy but it's a fact. What bugs me is that folks like you (and liberal Democrats, always) are never, ever satisfied. No matter how much the wealthy pay it's never 'enough' - and that is just wrong. It stifiles investment and growth and some folks just can't see it because they simply envy the rich and want to see them 'punished' with ever-higher taxes. That smacks of socialism, as they practice it in europe and elsewhere. Obscene tax rates, little private investment, government smothering of most industry and stagnent economies meaning everyone gets less in government services every year. A mess that we don't need to emulate here in America, Rick.

I'm wondering if you work for the president, I know you are a supporter. You seem to be so much a supporter that you'll even contradict him, to support him. You speak with a forked tongue, white man. Heeh.

I don't work for the president or the Republicans. I'm a patriotic and concerned American citizen, like you. I like and support President Bush, yes, but I disagree with him on some major issues, such as immigration 'reform'. Still, on the whole, I think he's done a good job under difficult conditions with a rabid and hostile media at his heels since Day One. I usually make sense, which frustrates some liberals here and annoys those who dislike my politics and/or my religion. Too bad for them, isn't it?

You're worth responding too Rick and I try to remain civil when I do but as I frustrate you, the feeling is sometimes mutual. Still, you're posts are a good paltform for me to correct some myths and explain a few facts. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do so but I won't keep this exchange going very much longer as I have little time to spend here and this just eats it up.

Carry on.

[Dark_5.0]

Mr 5.0- I am overjoyed to see that someone in California of all places shares my political views.

I also disagree with Bush's immigration policies.

I wish I could put my thoughts into words as convincingly and as sharply as you do.

Run for office, I'll vote for you

[srv1]

Mr 5 0, your spewing off figures and some stuff you call facts. All I want is some resources on where you get your figures and facts from. State them cause for all I know you can be making all this up.

James

[Mr 5 0]

(April 27, 2004) -- Existing single-family home sales rose strongly in March to the second-highest level on record, according to the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS®.

Existing-home sales increased 5.7 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate* of 6.48 million units in March from an upwardly revised pace of 6.13 million units in February. Last month's sales activity was 12.7 percent above the 5.75 million unit level in March 2003; the record is 6.68 million in September 2003.

David Lereah, NAR's chief economist, said low interest rates get most of the credit for last month's performance, but he noted interest rates are now rising modestly. "The housing needs of a growing population timed nicely with historically low mortgage interest rates and a rebounding economy in March," Lereah says. "Although interest rates are rising modestly, an improving job market is creating a favorable backdrop for home sales, but at a somewhat slower pace in the months ahead."

According to Freddie Mac, the national average commitment rate for a 30-year, conventional, fixed-rate mortgage was 5.45 percent in March, the second lowest on record, down from 5.64 percent in February. It was 5.75 percent in March 2003; the record low is 5.23 percent set in June 2003.

The national median existing-home price was $174,100 in March, up 7.4 percent from March 2003 when the median price was $162,100. The median is a typical market price where half of the homes sell for more and half sell for less.

Source: www.realtor.org

***********************************************

Household Income

MOST RECENT STATISTIC: $42,409

PERIOD COVERED: 2002
Date Released: Sept. 2003
Next Release: Sept. 2004


2002 2001 2000 1999
Median 42,409 $42,228 $41,990 $40,696

1998
$38,855.

1-Yr. Change, nominal 0.4% 0.6% 3.2% 4.7% 5.0%

1-Yr. Change, real (1.1%) (2.2%) (0.2%) 2.5% 3.6%

Source: U.S. Census Bureau

[RBatson]

Jim, do you realize your real estate source is supporting my argument? Homes sales are up because of the interest rates. The national median price of a home is up because those with jobs can afford more home than they could when the rates were high. I can't see what is so difficult to understand about that. I'll give you an example.. A $100k home loan at 8.5% is $768.91 a month, at 5.5% the same loan is $567.79 a month. So if you could afford $768.91 then the $100k you could afford at 8.5% now becomes a loan in the amount of $135,421.78 that you could afford at 5.5%. Alot of people have sold thier old homes and bought a nicer one, get it? That is the reason the national median home price is up.

Quote Jim- "This year, inflation may creep up and increase the mortagage interest rates a bit but to claim that the rates are low because no one can afford a home and then see home sales climbing beyond any previous numbers is to ignore reality, something you are free to do on your own, but don't try to sell it here."

I never said people who couldn't afford homes were buying homes, that doesn't make sense, none. What I said was.. People with jobs are buying houses they weren't able to afford, previously.. because of the rates.

The economy is slowly recovering, something else I already stated. Rates will follow, said that too.

I don't know where you get that I personally am starving or anything of that nature. I never said I was losing money on my 'investment' rental house, its actually doing quite well.. in rent and value (as is the house I live in). I don't know where you got that from. What I did say is that I have most of my money in a real estate property. What just went south up is my pension and health benefits. I am only accruing half towards retirement what I was a year ago. My deductibles, for health insurance, have doubled and some of the benefits were reduced. The insurance company is blaming the economy and our pension and health fund isn't the only one, there are many folks in America going through this... Just because it isn't happening to you doesn't mean it isn't happening. Hopefully as the economy turns around the pension and health bendfits will become what they were. Other than that, I'm doing better than ever.. even refinanced my house and am currently paying an obsenely low mortgage payment. All because I have a good job and good credit, in these hard times(that are beginning to get better). It does concern me when people are out of work, not only because I hate to hear about people losing their homes but also because ultimately, it could affect mine and yours and everyone elses.

Now, I am done with this because I can't see that this is going anywhere.. I did pick up something on the tax discussion, thanks. I think this just goes to prove that 2 people can be given the same facts and interpret them 2 completely different ways.. and that I'm right and you are wrong Seriously, I think you either assume too much or don't grasp all that you read before coming to a conclusion or possibly... I just don't get my message across clearly, perhaps.

Check out this link- http://www.suntimes.com/output/busin...in-rate28.html Be sure to read the very last Q&A. Looks like I'm right again...

BTW, I figured you would like this post and that, along with trying to wake this place up, is why I started it.

Quote Jim- "I won't keep this exchange going very much longer as I have little time to spend here and this just eats it up."

Who are you kidding??

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by RBatson :

I'll cut to the chase here. Homes sales are booming which indicates a robust economy, not a weak one, as you've inferred. There is a ton of ignorance and misinformation regarding economics out there and while I'm no economist (neither are you) I fail to see the validity of some of your arguments.

I never said people who couldn't afford homes were buying homes, that doesn't make sense, none. What I said was.. People with jobs are buying houses they weren't able to afford, previously.. because of the rates.

The economy is slowly recovering, something else I already stated. Rates will follow, said that too.

You were attempting to portray a weak economy and putting some of the blame on the president, which I see as ridiculous - on both issues.

I It does concern me when people are out of work, not only because I hate to hear about people losing their homes but also because ultimately, it could affect mine and yours and everyone elses.

That can happen anytime, to anyone. Life is a risk.

Now, I am done with this because I can't see that this is going anywhere.. I did pick up something on the tax discussion, thanks. I think this just goes to prove that 2 people can be given the same facts and interpret them 2 completely different ways.. and that I'm right and you are wrong Seriously, I think you either assume too much or don't grasp all that you read before coming to a conclusion or possibly... I just don't get my message across clearly, perhaps.

I think that you see the U.S. economic 'glass' as half-empty while I see it as half-full. That I won't agree with you must rankle you, I understand, but I think you have a distorted idea of the U.S. economy and are ready to find problems where few really exist, then you call that 'being realistic' when it's really just being pessimistic. You don't like hearing that, I'm sure, so we go 'round and 'round with it. Nothing much changes here, does it?

Check out this link. Be sure to read the very last Q&A. Looks like I'm right again...

Looks like what''s really happenning is that competition for new car sales is fierce - dozens and dozens of car companies are selling cars and there are only going to be so many buyers each year as cars last a lot longer now - and since the manufacturers can't afford to lower the price, they make the financing sweet to move cars - and only if you have a high credit score.

BTW, I figured you would like this post and that, along with trying to wake this place up, is why I started it.

You clever boy, you.

As for spending time here: I can't. This thread did get my interest but I usually post other places and prefer those sites as the audience is much larger, if nothing else. I'll bite on a juicy topic but not always and not that often. I haven't posted this much here in many months. Thanks for the opportunity to kick it around but remember, Rick: on the internet, everyone is a genius and everyone is always right about everything.

[Unit 5302]

While avoiding the need to finish my review of the Prescott core Pentium 4 vs Northwood C core Pentium 4, I shall address this.

As of March 2004, the Business Consumer Confidence Level is the highest it's been since March of 1989.

Individual consumer confidence rose sharply this month citing strong job market conditions and a positive outlook over the next 6 months.

Consumer Confidence Index

In regards to home sales, it's quite simple. People buy what they can afford. With interest rates being so low, they are able to get into a house with a price tag much higher than they would have. At the same time, the housing market has seen huge increases in the final sale prices of homes in the recent couple of years. The bottom line is that people are spending just as much as they would have, but more of them are buying homes.

While I share concerns over the economy in general, more specifically in the moving of good jobs moving overseas or out of the country. Putting the blame on the Bush administration is hardly fair or logical in regards to such accusations. The Clinton Administration left this time bomb sitting in the oval office for the next president.

The too often noted concept that the United States is so wealthy that we can directly enhance the 3rd world status of all poor nations is ludicrious. The United States has a population of about 300 million vs the Earth's population of 6 billion. Nearly 2.5 billion of that living in India and China, which are not exactly the wealthiest nations. It's like trying to cool a gallon of boiling water with a pint of 40* water.

In regards to taxes, the "rich" pay far more in taxes than the average citizen.

Related NCPA Report

Ever notice that your net pay increases little with your salary increases because it moves you up into another tax bracket? Maybe you notice that you only get about 1/2 of your annual bonus or profit sharing net of taxes? The "rich" pay that tax under normal circumstances. While there are definitely instances of blatent abuse of tax codes by some businesses and wealthy individuals, there are just as many by low and middle income workers who file "zero" tax returns IMHO. While the proposed tax cuts do favor "wealthy" individuals, the lower income bracket citizens also see a decrease in taxes.

There is most definitely a huge problem with the current pay structure in corporate America. Higher level executives are seeing pay levels that are completely unwarranted, and irresponsible. Steve Jobs is probably the most blatent abuser of corporate pay I've seen in recent years. The average major corporation's CEO makes 500x the base wage in the company. Japan is the next country in line for CEO pay based on the base worker's wage. It's 12x more. See a problem there? I do. That being said, I'm not entirely sure how to fix the problem in a free market, capitalist economy. Maybe if more American's actually paid attention to their investments and economic issues, this wouldn't have happened, but instead, they'd rather blather on about rehashed, inaccurate, politically motivated articles released by our obviously biased media corporations.