Corrupt Government?

[rwhite65]

sorry. I somehow double posted..and it wont let me delete it.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by CupCake :

You might say that America is not the envy of the world, you know there is a reason why I moved here, the reason is that I came looking for the american dream and you know what??? I found it!!! You will never understand until you have to live in a country that doesn't have anything and the people is starving. You don't understand this becuase you have everything you want and if you don't you can compain about it, I am tired of listening all this "americans" whine about how bad is their country. Sometimes it seems that people that are not americans and they have to go to hell and back to get some paper to be able to even be here are more americans than the real ones. STOP WHINING and see how good you have it!

Thanks - again - for bringing some much-needed perspective to the patently false argument that America is the source of the world's problems and to the constant whining from too many very comfortable Americans who have no real conception of how free and open our nation is and only see the negative because they take their freedom and prosperity for granted, never having known anything else. That's forgivable - but to a person like you, Cup Cake, born and raised in a far less prosperous and democratic land, the American whining and complaining must seem ridiculous and somewhat of a mystery.

I hesitate to say it, but: get used to it. The American education system tends to focus on things like slavery (officially and legally ended in 1863) - 141 years - 7 generations- ago)and other negative aspects of Americas history and the media (TV and newspapers, especially) always focus on 'bad news' and especially during a Republican administration. Thus, we have young people growing up to believe that America is somehow a bad place and that we are a racist , oppressive nation. Absurd? Of course...but this is what is taught in too many public schools and the university today. The folks who promote this false and negative point of view are generally called the 'Blame America First' crowd. Whatever happens, it's somehow America's (or President Bush's) 'fault'. We're too 'arrogant', too rich, use too many resources, and so on. That this is usually nonsense is obvious to many of us but a lot of Americans (too many) buy into it and thus you'll see this kind of 'it's all America's fault-type' messages on boards such as this one, where general topics are discussed. Sad, isn't it?

It's natural to want to see your country improve and of course a nation as large as America wil always have some problems to deal with but the complaining and general negativity some people go on about is far beyond the reality of America, today. That you - as an immigrant - can clearly see this and are honestly annoyed, if not offended by those who bad-mouth their own nation is heartening. I applaud your honesty and ability to tell those who whine about America that they are quite wrong and clearly unappreciative of what they so freely take as their due - and then demand more and complain when they think they've found some 'faults' in the most free and clearly the most powerful economic system in the world today.

Like you, I deeply appreciate the freedoms and opportunity America offers to all. Like you, I get annoyed at the whiners and complainers who see nothing but negatives in the best country on earth. Unlike you, I was born and have lived all my life in this country (with a few trips out of it on vacations) and I'm very proud of my nation and am pleased to be able to share it's benefits and freedoms with you and millions of other immigrants who have made this nation great because they appreciated it and took advantage of it's freedoms and opportunities, Cup Cake.

Keep up that great attitude of yours and never let the grumblers and complainers change your mind.

[Rev]

The very fact that we can disagree with American policy is testimony to the freedom and liberties that we enjoy as Americans. We can complain and yes even "whine" about governmental actions, whenever we see the need, and in any public forum, without fear of retribution (theoretically) from governmental agencies. Many times this criticism of the American government reaches such proportions that changes are made in governmental policy without even being put to a vote or without an election to "throw the so-and-so's out".

Criticisms often catch the ear of our elected representitives, who usually have their ear to the ground so to speak, and and are always looking towards the next election. Complaints do make a difference in future policies long before any election takes place. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you have no right to complain or speak out against governmental policy. You do have that constitutionally guaranteed right, and it can make a difference in how business is conducted by the USA.

Rev

[Mr 5 0]

I seriously doubt that it's anyone exercising their First Amendment right that CupCake objects to. I would assume that it's the more generalized America-bashing that we sometimes see on the internet, and MW is no exception.

Real change in government policies does often originate from the bottom up but the simple-minded whining about how 'awful' America is because of this or that is simply ridiculous in many cases and I can see why an immigrant like CupCake, grateful to be in America and enjoying our bounty, views it as unseemly. So do I.

[Rev]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0

Real change in government policies does often originate from the bottom up but the simple-minded whining about how 'awful' America is because of this or that is simply ridiculous in many cases. [/B]

What is one person's garbage can be another persons treasure. I certainly would not denigrate Cup Cake's appreciation of American liberties and opportunities. I'm glad that you agree that "garss roots" discussions (often critical of the US) can influence American policies. Fortunately, what one person sees as baseless, simple minded whining can still be put forth for the public and elected officialdom to judge for itself.

Rev

[Mr 5 0]

Opinions and attitudes toward our government will always differ in a nation of over 290 million diverse people. It's the barely hidden contempt some people (not meaning you, Rev) have for their country that I often find alarming and disgusting.

We can all disagree on politicians and policies, as we often do, but when it comes to 'America' being slammed as 'imperialist', 'racist', 'oppressive' and other absurd denigrations I see so casually spewed on internet messageboards, that is offensive as well as stupid.

To an immigrant like CupCake, who has actually lived with true (not theoretical) oppression, poverty and other experiences virtually unknown in America, seeing comfortable, totally free middle-class people saying such things about the freest and most prosperous nation on the planet, a nation that is their mother country, as it were, must just seem crazy.

I couldn't blame her.

In some circles, trashing America has somehow become 'patriotic' and praising America the mark of the fool...in their view. Free-thinkers like this lose me. Intellectual-wannabes that are too smart to think, in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the concept that America can not be improved. That should be a given. It's the definition of what constitutes 'improvement' that is the base of the conflict between those who love and appreciate their country and those who,, too often, consider themselves 'citizens of the world', see honest patriotism as xenophobia or a 'cover' for suspected sinister intentions and think it's 'patriotic' to slander America.

We can easily dispute the specific policies and programns of any administration and politicians are always flawed, easily dissected and often found wanting in some area. That is democracy at work and the 'complaining and whining' can be useful, in some - but not all - cases. I'll never tell someone not to complain about any aspect of governmentt even if I disagree. That makes for healthy discussion, as you noted earlier. It's the sneering dismissal and denigration of America as a free country, founded on great moral and legal principles and still growing and evolving today that offends both 'Cup Cake' and folks like me.

I'm offended by the left's almost maniacal focus on things like slavery and the destruction of Native Americans, all a part of our history, to be sure, but too often overdrawn and wrongly used to call America an 'oppressor' and other inane names while ignoring the unprecedented opportunities this great nation offers. Our national success is sometimes seen as the exploitation of people and resources instead of a model of the efficiency of capitalism, the free market and the native ambition and hard work of millions and millions of Americans, mostly all immigrants at some point in the past and even today. It would be foolish to ignore dark parts of our national history or to refuse to deal with mistakes and misjudgements made decades, sometimes centuries ago. America is not 'perfect' and no one believes that it is. However, on balance, 'America' - and all that name includes - is the best the world can offer to anyone today, warts and all.

I am proud of my country and glad to welcome others like 'CupCake' into it. That she deeply appreciates our nation and all it offers both personally and financially is a refreshing change from spoiled Americans trashing their own country and believing that doing so is somehow both 'patriotic' and sophisticated instead of being merely ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them. I've had a bellyful of that attitude. I would hope others have , too. I applaud CupCake and her positive attitude here. She'll make a fine American.

[Mach 1]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0
.


That she deeply appreciates our nation and all it offers both personally and financially is a refreshing change from spoiled Americans trashing their own country and believing that doing so is somehow both 'patriotic' and sophisticated instead of being merely ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them.

I tend to disagree that Americans are trashing thier own country because they think its "patriotic" and "sophisticated". That certainly doesnt apply to me. Have you ever opened your mind to the possiblility that people have other reasons for thier disent with this country?

Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them".

I think even you have gone to far this time.

[djbobbyzee]

I saw a funny bumper sticker on a Honda with a fartpipe.
It said "War is not the answer."
I pulled up next to the little twit, and glanced over.
He revved his little engine.
I smirked and said, "We're at WAR with TERRORISM. If war isn't the answer, I guess in your eyes terrorism must be the next best option?"

And then he was owned.

I've learned you cannot discuss politics with librals.
You state the facts to prove their stance is meaningless...
They reply with "well, I feel..."
Conversation over. You can't argue facts with feelings.

End of rant.
Just my 2 bits.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by Mach 1 :

I tend to disagree that Americans are trashing thier own country because they think its "patriotic" and "sophisticated". That certainly doesnt apply to me. Have you ever opened your mind to the possiblility that people have other reasons for thier disent with this country?

I've 'opened my mind', as you disingenuously put it, on an almost daily basis for many years, debating politics and public policy with liberals on the internet. I'm well aware of the numerous 'dissents' liberals hold and I've refuted and discussed them literally hundreds of times. I can attest to the fact that most of their complaints are either about nebulous 'problems' or else they hate the president and are rabidly anti-war, which is not quite the same as being anti-American.

Unfortunately, I encounter many people who seem to either be indoctrinated with leftist dogmas that are based on the perceived 'evils' of America ('rampant consumerism' is just one of many) or claim to be disgusted with their own country - according to them - yet somehow always control their disgust well enough to enjoy every benefit America can provide, as I never fail to remind them. When challenged on their assertations and conclusions they often are defensive and claim that it's actually 'patriotic' to trash America and they 'just want to make it a better nation' and are 'not afraid to see it's faults'. They do seem far less able to see it's attributes and apparenty are loath to mention them, if they do.

The liberal's (who trash America) stated desire to 'improve' America is fraught with ambiguous meanings and I'm sure every despot and oppressive government in the world made a similar claim at one time. I am instinctively wary of those who, (a) can't seem to find much good to say about their own country and, (b) always seem to want to 'fix it' with some socialist, utopian set of schemes that must have sounded great in a politics bull session back in college but that is usually just a re-hash of failed socialist concepts that ignore the humanity and the normal yearnings of the very people such schemes purport to benefit.

Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them".

Not every liberal who thinks 'big business' should be strangled by oppressive taxes, that the wealth of the nation should be 'distributed' by government or that 'government' should control every facet of our lives is a communist or even a socialist - but many are, at heart and don't even know it. They want to replace freedom with dependence and substitute opportunity for lowered expectations and mandated outcomes. That's just wrong.

As I stipulated: as a people, we can and will always disagree on specifics and certain politicians or policies but I find that most anti-American types (not counting Canadians or The French who are hardwired to hate America) see mostly 'problems' instead of opportunities in America and that seriously think calling the president names and being vocally anti-war is somehow a sophisticated political posture and claiming to want to make America 'better' by making it more socialistic is 'patriotic'.

I think even you have gone to far this time.

Think what you like. It should be obvious that I disagree. I find that when I begin to come close to the truth some people get defensive. Maybe that's just me. In any case, it's simply my personal observations and opinions but I would be happy to discuss them with you here if you ever wish to do so.

[Mach 1]

You are way more interested, informed, and passionate about politics than I am or care to be. You make valid points, and I do not wish to debate this subject. Just seems like you dont see any good at all to the "liberal" viewpoint, and I think they have some good points as well.

Too bad we cant find a happy medium for everybody.

[Rev]

I think a person should put forth his honest opinions and ideas as he sees fit (within legal and ethical limits). I don't really see a need for one to bash someone else's opinion to foster his own. If one's ideas are superior to someone else's, I believe the reading public will see that almost immediately.

Rev

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by Mach 1

You are way more interested, informed, and passionate about politics than I am or care to be. You make valid points, and I do not wish to debate this subject. Just seems like you dont see any good at all to the "liberal" viewpoint, and I think they have some good points as well.

Too bad we cant find a happy medium for everybody.

Thanks for the compliment and you're right, with very rare exceptions, I don't find much to like or endorse in the liberal political viewpoint. I think so-called 'liberal' political policies have done much harm to our nation in many areas, which is why I oppose that point of view. I have to.

From abortion-on-demand to ever-higher taxes to restricting our freedoms with failed policies such as gun control to the destruction of our once-fine public school system with PC nonsense and other major errors. From the transformation of our college campuses from places of learning and exploration of ideas into liberal indoctrination centers where nothing but leftist dogma is tolerated, to the corsening of our popular culture and the resulting disrespect for our country, it's flag and it's people: it is my studied opinion that 'liberalism' (leftism, really) has done harm to this country.

Conservatism and liberalism are on two sides of an enormous divide (think of the Grand Canyon) and as they are basically opposed to each other's philosophy and ideology, there can be no 'happy medium'. You cannot mix oil and water and have a resulting 'happy medium' liquid that is not half one and half the other. They don't mix. Neither do liberal and conservative political ideology and philosophy. Hence, I remain a conservative and will oppose liberal political ideas whenever I find them and have the time to do so. Thus it ever was.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by Rev :

I think a person should put forth his honest opinions and ideas as he sees fit (within legal and ethical limits). I don't really see a need for one to bash someone else's opinion to foster his own. If one's ideas are superior to someone else's, I believe the reading public will see that almost immediately.

That assumes that there is no debate present.

Most internet messageboards that deal with politics also are debating forums. While I can postulate a 'conservative' position without bashing liberalism in the process the 'liberal' response will be to attack my position and substitute the opposite position in it's place, in most cases. Conversely, if I wish to dispute a liberal position I have no choice but to point our it's error and explain why this is wrong and/or won't work. To some, any opposition to what they believe, politically, is 'bashing'. In addition, to successfully contend against another's political position, one is almost required to use negative words and even ridicule to make one's point in a manner that will resonate with others.

My experience debating politics on internet forums is that it's not English Gentlemen quietly sipping tea while exchanging pleasantries but a rather rough arena where mockery and ridicule is rampant and even when absent, hard words often are exchanged by advocates and little concern is given to decorum, within the usual loose messageboard guidelines that preclude personal attacks. Even then, things can get ugly, as this thread has shown.

"Bashing' seems to be a relative term and while I don't always need to 'bash' to make a point, in a debate, it's generally necessay to pick apart the opponents argument. We do what is necessary.

[Rev]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0


Most internet messageboards that deal with politics also are debating forums.

Alas, I can't really debate the actual political issues with Mr.5 0 because I seem to agree with him on most of them, at least the ones he debates in this thread, LOL. I'm pretty sure we could find differences of opinion in some other areas .

I do still feel that it really isn't necessary to be very venomous in defending conservative or liberal views. IMHO, the value of these specific views pretty much speak for themselves.

I do also understand that those who endure personal attacks because of their conservative or liberal views may also have a tendency to lash out at perceived "liberal" or "conservative" enemies".

Rev

[nastyn8]

I am not a total wiz on the government, but I am thankful for every freedom I have. Sure never will everybody agree on what the government does.

One of the only things I really disagree with is the Justice system. Why is it that sex offenders and drugs dealers get off as easy as they do. I live in the meth capital of Illinois. People get busted in my town for manufacturing and other heavy drug charges and within a year they're back on the streets. It just doesnt seem right.

Public schools is another thing. I just recently graduated high school and I'm currently attending a local junior college. I have came to the conclusion that most teachers in the K-12 range are just baby sitters. There are only a few of my former teachers I have respect for. About 75% of the time we were just given busy work so we weren't bothering the teacher.

Anyway back to the freedom part, I love having the choice of going on to college instead of having to go work in a factory making peanuts like in other dictatorship, communist and 3rd world countries.
A lot of people don't realize their freedoms because most of us Americans are spoiled. Face it we are.

Mr 50, I respect your knowledge and point of views. I agree with you on the Bible being incorrect due to translation and such, but I am a firm believer in God and Jesus. Everyone has a plan they don't know about.

Another way I look at sitting aroung arguing about something on the internet isn't really going to solve anything.

I agree about immigration being a bad issue but could you imagine being in one of these immigrants shoes. I know I wouldn't want to live in China, Ethiopia, Russia, Cuba or any of these countries within dictatorship. It's the immigrants that come to our country to do nothing other for terrorist purposes that are the ones to give the bootin to.

Maybe if everyone got a taste of other country's freedoms they would change their minds on being disrespectful towards America.

Well thats all I got to say about that.

-Nathan

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by nastyn8:

I am not a total wiz on the government, but I am thankful for every freedom I have. Sure never will everybody agree on what the government does.

Heck, we can't even agree on whether or not we like the new 2005 Mustang design.

One of the only things I really disagree with is the Justice system. Why is it that sex offenders and drugs dealers get off as easy as they do. I live in the meth capital of Illinois. People get busted in my town for manufacturing and other heavy drug charges and within a year they're back on the streets. It just doesnt seem right.

It isn't.

A combination of prison overcrowding, too-liberal judges who seem to believe that drug use is a 'victimless crime' plus the fact that a lot of drug crimes are plea - bargained down to far less serious offenses all adds up to drug criminals getting away with far too much.

Public schools is another thing. I just recently graduated high school and I'm currently attending a local junior college. I have came to the conclusion that most teachers in the K-12 range are just baby sitters. There are only a few of my former teachers I have respect for. About 75% of the time we were just given busy work so we weren't bothering the teacher.

Public school teachers are protected by powerful unions and tenure that makes the poor ones almost impossible to get rid of. Even the 'good' teachers are encumbered by the school systems fear of lawsuits and so, discipline goes out the window, real teaching is made more difficult and many teachers just give up (if they ever tried to teach at all) and coast along as the baby-sitters' that you characterized. I know, I have a good friend who is a public high school teacher and really tries hard to engage her classes (History and English) but is often thwarted by unruly students and school restrictions.

Anyway back to the freedom part, I love having the choice of going on to college instead of having to go work in a factory making peanuts like in other dictatorship, communist and 3rd world countries.
A lot of people don't realize their freedoms because most of us Americans are spoiled. Face it we are.

I agree.

Mr 50, I respect your knowledge and point of views. I agree with you on the Bible being incorrect due to translation and such, but I am a firm believer in God and Jesus. Everyone has a plan they don't know about.

I apprecate your kind words but when it comes to my views on the bible, I think you have me confused with someone else. I am a fundamentalist Christian and firmly believe that the bible was ordained by God, is not corrupted by man's will or bad translations and is the inerrent Word of God. I have argued that point of view many times.

Another way I look at sitting aroung arguing about something on the internet isn't really going to solve anything.

The point of posting our opinions on the internet is not to 'solve' things because - as you correctly understand - an internet argument cannot accomplish that. I post to state my personal point of view, to correct lies and what I consider false assumptions and conclusions of others and to get whatever message I may have on any specific issue out to many more people than I ever could one-to-one. I find the internet to be a valuable form of mass communication that I use daily and that I enjoy reading and posting on.

The fact that you've been reading the posts in this thread, have considered them and have your own opinions on some of the issues raised that compelled you to post simply proves my point.

I agree about immigration being a bad issue but could you imagine being in one of these immigrants shoes. I know I wouldn't want to live in China, Ethiopia, Russia, Cuba or any of these countries within dictatorship. It's the immigrants that come to our country to do nothing other for terrorist purposes that are the ones to give the bootin to.

No argument there.

Maybe if everyone got a taste of other country's freedoms they would change their minds on being disrespectful towards America.

One hopes.

Well thats all I got to say about that.

-Nathan

And well-said it was. Thank you, Nathan.

Please post again.

[MidNiteBlu 5.0]

My problem with government today is that really all politicians are pretty much the same. You can take Bush and Kerry for instance. Bush is a Republican, holds the Christian beliefs that Republicans typically do, however his administration spends more than the typical republican administration and has a much larger government than most conservatives are in favor of. Then there is Kerry. Despite his issues of a horribloe voting record and never having a true backbone to him he doesnt exactly hold up to your typical Democrat for the working class. I mean what member of the working class has 4-5 homes and goes windsurfing off of nantucket?

I am a moderate republican with many libertarian views. I am fiscally conservative and I dont feel the government has any right in saying which sex's can marry and who can or cant get an abortion. However it really sickens me to see both parties are pretty much growing closer and closer to being the same. Thats also another reason why I hate the two party system. Im not sure who im going to vote for. I dont like Bush but I hate Kerry even more. I may end up voting Libertarian even though I dont agree with all of thier views either.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by MidNiteBlu 5.0 :

My problem with government today is that really all politicians are pretty much the same. You can take Bush and Kerry for instance. Bush is a Republican, holds the Christian beliefs that Republicans typically do, however his administration spends more than the typical republican administration and has a much larger government than most conservatives are in favor of. Then there is Kerry. Despite his issues of a horrible voting record and never having a true backbone to him he doesn't exactly hold up to your typical Democrat for the working class. I mean what member of the working class has 4-5 homes and goes windsurfing off of nantucket?

The myth of the Democrat 'being for the working man' is just that, a myth, as any serious analysis of the Democrat voting record for the past 50 years will show you. They consistently vote for higher taxes (and not just on 'the rich') and more restrictions on liberty via more government regulation. Far from helping the 'working man'.

The Bush administration has produced high government spending and expansion, which conservatives oppose on principle. However, almost every conservative I know will vote for Bush because he is far, far closer to conservative ideals than Kerry could ever be, which is pretty obvious.

I am a moderate republican with many libertarian views. I am fiscally conservative and I dont feel the government has any right in saying which sex's can marry and who can or cant get an abortion. However it really sickens me to see both parties are pretty much growing closer and closer to being the same. Thats also another reason why I hate the two party system. Im not sure who im going to vote for. I dont like Bush but I hate Kerry even more. I may end up voting Libertarian even though I dont agree with all of thier views either.

You need to face the reality that all politicians have to cater to and try to placate a wide variety of constituents and so, cannot and will not be able to please you, as an individual, on every issue that arises. It's often been said that 'politics is the art of compromise'...and it is. A conservative Ronald Reagan tolerated big federal deficits to get a military buildup and tax cuts. A liberal Bill Clinton signed a welfare reform bill that was anathema to most liberals in order to get tax increases and to look good in an election. President Bush gets a big tax cut, a huge military buildup - but expands the government. Compromise.

To claim that both parties are 'the same' (or close to it) is incorrect. Do you truly believe that a Democrat president such as Al Gore would have responded to 9/11 the way President Bush did? Immediately going on offense? That a Democrat president would have asked for and gotten big tax cuts, as Bush did? These are major, major issues and the difference between Democrats and Republicans today is wide - and stark. That you take the Libertarian view on abortion and same-sex marriage is not uncommon. However, these issues are minor compared to the overriding issue of the war on terrorism and to a lesser extent, the economy, which Bush's tax cuts helped improve and recover from the 2000-2001 recession.

I would think long and hard before voting Libertarian. This is a critical election and while even I, a conservative, don't agree with everything Bush has done, I fully appreciate what he has done in the war on terror and the economy and I cannot even consider the thought of a John Kerry in charge of this nation's defenses. Not for a moment.

Remember, the only politician who will ever have the exact same views as you do is the guy looking back at you in the mirror every morning. Bush isn't perfect but he's done a good job under difficult circumstances and in my view, deserves to be re-elected.

[nastyn8]

MR 50 what is your opinion on Ralph Nadar and the Green party?

I was told that they were against coal mining and a lot of other industry, also that they were responsible for emissions laws and trying to do away with the big block engines.

When the last election was up a bunch of the dopers at my school were talking about that if Ralph Nadar was to get elected as president he was going to legalize marijuana. Can you imagine what chaos that would cause.

Later

[NoSlow5.0]

As far as i am concerned a vote for Either Bush or Kerry is a waste and would be me chosing the lesser of two evils. I have been doing some research on the libertarian party and like what they have to say. I am voting libertarian this year. Screw the other two.