Fuel Prices

[Unit 5302]

So with several refineries down, and some expected to be down for months, oil drilling platforms floating around the Gulf of Mexico, power outages, and pipeline damage, what do you think the price of regular unleaded gasoline will rise to?

[Dark_5.0]

It will get over 4 bux in Cali and on the East coast but it wont break $3.20 here where I am at.

I paid $7.85 a gallon for race gas a few weeks ago so i guess I cant complain.

[82 GT]

The price of gas is out of control. I bet it will break $5/gallon on the East coast within the next 3 weeks.
The oil companys and politicians are loving every minute of it too.
As the price of oil increases, they get richer which is the same reason why the federal goverment willNEVER step in an regulate oil prices. Why would they slit their own throats.....
Drive offs at the pumps are going to increase dramatically, people will resort to siphoning fuel out of vehicals, crime will increase....
It's going to get worse before it gets better...much worse!
Ever see the movie MAD MAX?? Well, that's what it will eventually come to if something isn't done.

[grey88gt]

Its already over $3.00 a gal here. Ive been selling locking fuel caps like mad LOL. Its plain nuts for them to do this. I only have to drive about 4 miles to get to work so I guess I just wont go any where else for a while.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by 82 GT

The price of gas is out of control. I bet it will break $5/gallon on the East coast within the next 3 weeks. The oil companys and politicians are loving every minute of it too. As the price of oil increases, they get richer which is the same reason why the federal goverment willNEVER step in an regulate oil prices. Why would they slit their own throats....

The government tried regulating prices for gas...it was called the 1973 gas shortage crisis. Price-setting by government doesn't work. The government could call for a moratorium on gas taxes but they never seem to think of doing so. Federal and state gas taxes in my state add close to 60 cents to every gallon of gas you pump into your tank. Eliminating at least some of them would be a boon for drivers but that will never happen. The oil companies certainly could do more but frankly, shortages will always drive up prices, no matter what the reason. Most gas shortages are 'spotty'...not everywhere, as only 10% of the gasoline supply has been seriously affected by Katrina. The politicians are not 'loving it' as, first, the less gas people buy, whether by choice or due to a shortage...the less taxes the state and federal government collects. Second; they are being pressured to 'do something' by statist-minded citizens and, unfortunately, they sometimes do. Then everyone suffers, as happened in 1973.

Drive offs at the pumps are going to increase dramatically, people will resort to siphoning fuel out of vehicals, crime will increase....It's going to get worse before it gets better...much worse! Ever see the movie MAD MAX?? Well, that's what it will eventually come to if something isn't done.

Yes, some jerks will panic and steal gas (some don't need an excuse) but let's remember that the U.S. still has 90% of it's oil/gas supply available. While distribution is a problem, which could cause 'spot' shortages, it will hardly be the apocalyptic scenario you portray. 'Something'; will be done...the piplines will be repaired, opened and gas will be in full supply again...and the price will drop. Not as much as it should, but it will come down. Mad Max remains a fictional character, as does the post-apocalypse world he lived in. For now, anyway.

[82 GT]

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Yes, some jerks will panic and steal gas (some don't need an excuse) but let's remember that the U.S. still has 90% of it's oil/gas supply available. While distribution is a problem, which could cause 'spot' shortages, it will hardly be the apocalyptic scenario you portray. 'Something'; will be done...the piplines will be repaired, opened and gas will be in full supply again...and the price will drop. Not as much as it should, but it will come down. Mad Max remains a fictional character, as does the post-apocalypse world he lived in. For now, anyway.

The price won't come down much because the goverment will think "Gee...if they can buy gas at $3/gallon then certainly we can keep it there". Gas will never go below $2/gallon again and the "Mad Max" scene won't be too far in the distant future.

[silver_pilate]

I understand why prices rise for the cost of gas, but what I cannot comprehend is how suddenly, the very day after Katrina hit, all the gasoline dealers immediately had a 50 cent price increase. I know that they are raising prices in preparation for their own raised costs, but until they actually see those costs from their suppliers, they are raking in the profits. And we all know that there will be significant lag between the time that their costs drop and their prices drop. It's a racket, plain and simple.

More of a racket, though, is the cost of oil from OPEC. It costs them something like $4 to make a barrel of oil, and they turn around and sell for $70. That's a 1,750% mark up!! Imagine going to a bookstore and buying a textbook for $1312, and you might get a better picture of the markup. Of course, why Katrina should effect the price of crude is another quesiton, as it's not the supply of crude that's a problem, but the refining of the crude into usable forms that's been affected.

Oh well, bottom line is we all know we'll pay whatever they ask us to for gasoline. Sure, some of us my ride the bus a few more times, but when it comes down to it, we'll all keep driving.

--nathan

[BaboonQueen]

People are getting to be like savages when it comes to buying gas. I was waiting in line today at a Citgo and I was next to the gas pump, I went to pull my car in, and some stupid Mexican in a gay-ass lowered truck 2 inches from the ground, whips in front of me. GRRR!!! People are going insane...CALM DOWN FOLKS!

[82 GT]

It's the the price of cigaretts...the tobacco companys know people will continue to buy them no matter what the price is.
Same with gas, they know we need it so they can pretty much set the price at whetever they want.
Although, they fail to realize, as I mentioned above, the consequences that come with outragous prices.......drive offs, stealing fuel, robbery etc....

[Unit 5302]

OPEC and other oil producers pump a finite amount of crude out of the ground. Oil companies do not actually purchase barrels of oil, they purchase futures or the rights to barrels of oil. Just like a stock price, there is more demand to buy the futures which causes a general increase in the futures price. Oil companies are buying these futures at higher prices because there is a finite supply, and they want to make sure they have the rights to the oil they need when they need it. I think that oil is currently over-valued so to speak.

As far as markups, Exxon-Mobil is making approximately 2-3x as much pure profit on a gallon of gasoline as they were prior to their monopoly. Some states like Minnesota have passed laws requiring stations to price their gas at minimum wholesale price markups. Their profit margin is right around $0.60/gallon at the moment. Mr 5 0 is correct about federal and state gas taxes. In Minnesota, they add to $0.40/gallon.

In regard to the stations gouging people, the stations also lower their prices as futures fall, albeit not as quickly. Most stations make only $0.05 to $0.10/gallon on fuel sales, and their prices are largely controlled by a single strong position seller in a market. Super America has a nasty reputation for playing pricing games with gas causing pump prices to be quite erradic. Even so, I doubt we hear nearly as much complaining when oil and pump prices drop together, but as soon as they increase together, people start saying the filling stations are gouging. If stations didn't react to a dynamic market, they would literally have to wait until the next tanker showed up to change their prices and they could easily get caught with their pants down resulting in a net loss.

It's a crappy position for sure, but the only thing that is logical for us as consumers to do is to buy less. Quit spending money on gas and prices will fall.

[82 GT]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

It's a crappy position for sure, but the only thing that is logical for us as consumers to do is to buy less. Quit spending money on gas and prices will fall.

That only works in theory. People can't spend less on gas because we need it. Sure, we can cut back and consolidate our necessary trips to the stores and such but that wouldn't be enough to dramatically drop prices.
It's like asking smokers to quit buying cigaretts so that the price will drop......they can't...they need them...there're addicted.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by 82 GT

The price won't come down much because the goverment will think "Gee...if they can buy gas at $3/gallon then certainly we can keep it there". Gas will never go below $2/gallon again and the "Mad Max" scene won't be too far in the distant future.

I think you meant to say that the oil companies will keep the price of gasoline high...not the government. The government taxes gas at the pump but does not 'set' the pump price. Not yet, anyway.

The Mad Max scenario you insist will occur any day now is based on your assumption that with gasoline at over $2.00 per gallon, drivers will riot. I think not. Gas is a necessity for most of us and while a $5.00 per gallon price might start riots...$2.50 per gallon won't. Factored for inflation, at $2.00 + a gallon, we are paying the same or very close to what drivers paid per-gallon 30 years ago - and the average car today...even a V-8 Mustang...gets far better gas mileage than a 1975 or earlier car.

The fact that...as you said...gasoline is a economic necessity for the people and our economy, the government will not allow it to become so expensive that no one can buy it or if they do, it negatively impacts the economy. This whole problem could be alleviated if the government would drop some of the insane regulations that make building an oil refinery impossible and would allow more off-shore and Artic drilling. The U.S. has plenty of oil reserves underground but environmental-whacko regulations make drilling for it either illegal or financially impractical. That must change.

Oil drilling is very sophisticated these days and can easily be done in a way that does not harm the surrounding environment. To have to depend on almost 60% of our oil coming from unstable, foreign countries is ridiculous. More U.S. oil wells and local gas refineries would cut the cost and the ultimate price of gas to U.S. consumers, not to mention the risk of our supplies being held hostage by terrorists or other crazies.

One of the problems with how we view the price of gas is in our perceptions. We grew up with gasoline being relatively cheap and so, a 50 cent-per-gallon rise in price over a week is a shock. That's to be expected. However, even at $3.50 per gallon, that price isn't so terribly high and the vast majority of Americans can and will pay it. However, once the distribution problems subside, gas prices will come down, albeit probably never below $2.00 per gallon, as you said. Then again, a cup of coffee - which cost about 50 cents in 1975 - costs $1.50 or more at most diners and coffee shops, today. Few people complain because the price is reasonable when you also compare what people made in salary 30 years ago. It's all relative.

While a true gas shortage will certainly make tempers flair and people will get a little crazy, the idea of gasoline someday becoming some kind of super-precious commodity that people will kill for is a giantic stretch of the imagination. Of course, if you still wish to believe that scenario will happen, you are welcome to do so. We all have our fantasies. I simply find it naive and based more on emotional responses and a lack of understanding than reality.

[82 GT]

Your're forgetting that high gas prices affect everything else.
No, just the fact that gas is $3.50/gallon won't cause riots but factor in the the higher cost to heat homes, prices for goods bought in stores because companys charge more to to ship it there so the store raises their prices to offset the difference.
You're not seeing the whole picture.
Higher gas prices cause a domino effect on the economy which will cause the stealing, siphoning and crime that I talked about earlier.
Just remember, $3+/gallon might still be affordable to most upper class and middle class people but the people who really suffer are the lower class and poor.
Maybe the Mad Max syndrome might be a little far fetched but a more realistic prediction would be that someday there won't be a "middle class". You will either be rich or poor. No more "in the middle". The rich continue to get richer and the poor get poorer.
I consider myself middle class and I'll be the first to admit that I'm "feeling" these high gas prices.
I guess if you're wealthy, judging from your attitude and "matter of fact" responses, you have nothing to worry about.
So I guess the people that complain about the current fuel prices are just peons in your eyes...huh?
You're probably one of those guys that owns a Hummer and spends $75-$100 a week on fuel and thinks nothing of it.
When you pump $25 worth of fuel and only get 7 gallons of gas, that's bullcrap and you know it!

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by 82 GT

Your're forgetting that high gas prices affect everything else.
No, just the fact that gas is $3.50/gallon won't cause riots but factor in the the higher cost to heat homes, prices for goods bought in stores because companys charge more to to ship it there so the store raises their prices to offset the difference.
You're not seeing the whole picture.

Oh, I see the 'Big Picture' quite clearly. That's why I said that the government will not allow gas prices to rise to obscene levels. You are not the only one to realize that would have a very negative impact on our entire economy. Even now, the feds are dicusssing a moratorium on the federal gas tax and my state's governor is talking about suspending the state gas tax. Together, those taxes add about 55 cents to every gallon of gas. Dropping htem will make a big difference.

Higher gas prices cause a domino effect on the economy which will cause the stealing, siphoning and crime that I talked about earlier. Just remember, $3+/gallon might still be affordable to most upper class and middle class people but the people who really suffer are the lower class and poor.

Yes, just as higher food or clothing prices and an increase in cable rates will always affect the poor a lot more than the middle and upper economic classes. This is a fact of economic life. If you are 'poor' (a relative term, in America) and especially on a 'fixed income', any rise in retail prices will be noticed and you may 'suffer', another relative term in America, where 'poor' means having a car, two color TV sets and air conditioning. Not quite the same as being 'poor' in, say, the Sudan or even Afghanistan. But I digress.

Maybe the Mad Max syndrome might be a little far fetched but a more realistic prediction would be that someday there won't be a "middle class". You will either be rich or poor. No more "in the middle". The rich continue to get richer and the poor get poorer.

Not quite so. Generally, household incomes have been rising steadily for many years in the U.S.A. Most of America falls into the 'middle class' of the economic strata. There is 'lower'-middle class, 'midddle'-middle-class and 'upper'-middle class but the general 'class' comprises probably well over 2/3rds of the nations population - and drives the economy. Rich people - by themselves - don't make the economy run, the 'middle class' - average Americans - do. We are not about to disappear just because gas prices go up, I assure you.

[QUOTE]I consider myself middle class and I'll be the first to admit that I'm "feeling" these high gas prices.[/QUOTE}

Everyone does. You are not unique.

I guess if you're wealthy, judging from your attitude and "matter of fact" responses, you have nothing to worry about.

I wish. I simply am not about to get hysterical because gas prices took a big jump in a week due to situations that will eventually change.

So I guess the people that complain about the current fuel prices are just peons in your eyes...huh?
You're probably one of those guys that owns a Hummer and spends $75-$100 a week on fuel and thinks nothing of it.
When you pump $25 worth of fuel and only get 7 gallons of gas, that's bullcrap and you know it!

You're personal attacks here are unwarranted - and wrong.

I am not rich and I don't own a Hummer', either. I simply do not share your fears and frustrations because I can figuratively see past the next 24 hours and realize that gas prices are important but that they will not remain where they are and that we are not all going to end up as beggers on the street because gas went up in price.

Complaining about the price of gas is a national pasttime and hardly qualifies as something significent that will change America and destroy our way of life, as you seem to think. That is irrational and if you wish to state such things here, expect to be contradicted.

[Unit 5302]

Americans do not need a 5500lb Ford Expedition or Dodge Ram 4x4 that gets 13mpg as a commuter car. The SRT10 gets 9, yes, 9mpg in the city according to EPA estimates. 9 friggen miles per gallon.

Another thing. Americans live 20, 50, even 100 miles away from where they work.

If the citizens can't afford gas, it's time for a lifestyle change. I ride my motorcycles more. I live 3.5mi away from where I work and put less than 8000mi/yr on my Explorer, which gets between 17-24mpg. All city in the winter, 17. A mix is right around 19-20, and the freeway it gets about 23-24.

9mpg. That's ridiculous. Cars today getting 15mpg. About the same as my dad's old 1978 Lincoln Town Car with the 460ci V-8. 22ft long and 5000lbs with a 7.6L V-8 using 30 year old technology.

I do agree that the middle class is being exterminated as the gap between the rich and the poor accelerates.

[82 GT]

Don't hold your breathe for the suspension of gas taxes. I'll be an old man before that happens.
You're the first person who seem to be ok with the current fuel prices and believes that the prices will fall a significant amount after production picks up again.
Like I said, it's just not the price of gas, it's everything else that continues to go up while our paychecks stay the same.
That is what frustrates most Americans.
The economy has been a wreck for years now, regardless of what they tell you on TV, and probably will be for years to come.
Do you think Bush really cares about the economy especially after he will be out of office in two years?
You're very optimistic. I'll grant you that much.
I'm not freaking out about the gas prices. I'm just slowly learning how the goverment really works.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by 82 GT

Don't hold your breathe for the suspension of gas taxes. I'll be an old man before that happens.
You're the first person who seem to be ok with the current fuel prices and believes that the prices will fall a significant amount after production picks up again.

Not exactly.

I would love to be paying under $2.00 per gallon, just like you or anyone else. I would also love to be able to buy a new Mustang for the same price I paid for my '90 LX when I bought it new (about $14,000.) Neither one is going to happen. While I hate paying $40. for a fill-up that used to cost $25. a few short months ago I do not believe the price will remain at that high level and I see no point in getting all frenzied over it because that won't change anything...and I still have to have gas, just like anyone else.

Like I said, it's just not the price of gas, it's everything else that continues to go up while our paychecks stay the same.
That is what frustrates most Americans.

The inflation rate in the U.S. averages from 2 to almost 4%, annually. 2.5% is about average. Right now, the inflation rate stands at a bit over 3%. Most employers are aware of this and offer pay raises close to that amount, sometimes a little more. 2 to 3% is a very reasonable rate of inflation and part of the reason why our economy is doing so well. If your paycheck is staying the same on a yearly basis, you need to find a better job or aquire the skills and/or education that will allow you to find one.

I understand that having the cost of a necessary expense like gas suddenly go up 40 to 50% in a week or two is shocking and the first response tends to be anger born of frustration because you don't understand it and can't change it. That's natural. However, even at our generally low inflation rate, certain things will jump in price at various times for various reasons. Gas, being something most people use and need, is simply a more obvious manifestation of the natural cycle of supply and demand.

The economy has been a wreck for years now, regardless of what they tell you on TV, and probably will be for years to come.

I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish and obviously stems from a gross lack of information and knowledge of our current economic status.

Over 4 million new jobs have been created in the past two years, 2.2 million in the past 12 months.

The U.S. unemployment rate is down to a record low (5%).

Overall, the U.S. economy is growing at well over 3%, annually, a very robust rate of growth.

New home sales are way up as are sales of durable goods and retail, so the myth that thely created jobs are simply 'burger-flipper' or Wal-Mart jobs is nonsense. You don't buy a new home at today's prices on a Wal-Mart or McDonald's paycheck.

That's what they don't 'tell you on TV'..because most of the news organizations, except Fox, are anti-Bush and don't want him to receive any credit for the economy...unless it's bad. THEN, they trumpet that bad news for days on end and are sure to link it directly to President Bush, as if he could single-handedly 'make' the economy be either good or bad. The media bias against Republicans and President Bush, specifically, is as contemptable as it is transparent.

The U.S. is one of the most prosperous nations in the world today and our economy is in very good shape, the best in some years. Even our ''poor' live far better than most people in countries that are realistically poor. If you are hurting economically I am sorry but foolishly blaming 'the government' and the president is simply ridiculous and demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of economic reality.

Do you think Bush really cares about the economy especially after he will be out of office in two years?

Yes, he cares very much. If for no other reason than the crass political fact that if the U.S. economy is doing poorly in 2006 and/or 2008, the chances of a socialist Democrat like Senator Hillary Rodham (Clinton) being elected president becomes a real possibility, along with the Republicans losing their power in congress. Most people vote on their pocketbooks and if they feel - as you do - that the economy is doing poorly and they are being hurt, even if that is more apparent than real, a socialist Democrat using that perception to bash the Republicans while promising that they'll 'fix it' could fool enough people to be elected. It's happened before.

You're very optimistic. I'll grant you that much.

Thanks, but my optimism is based on the knowledge that gas prices are a focal point in any modern, industrialized economy and they cannot remain higher than can be justified without a lot of trouble for the gas companies and the politicians who are expected to 'fix it'. I'm sure some congressman or senator or two are already calling for hearings to 'investigate' the jump in gas prices. Half the political pundits are either blaming the gas companies for 'gouging' or blaming Bush...or both. That kind of national, laser-like attention on gas prices tends to have a limiting effect on how high they can go without any real, long-term justification that is both honest and believable.

I'm not freaking out about the gas prices. I'm just slowly learning how the goverment really works.

Really? It doesn't look that way from here. I would pay more attention to how the economy really works, if I were you. It will be of more benefit to your peace of mind.

[Unit 5302]

The jobs being created are low paying. More people work than ever before, taking jobs they don't want because they don't have a choice.

Arguing home sales as a legitimate benchmark of the economy's situation is pretty weak. The fact is interest rates were ridiculously low, resulting in the ability to afford a more expensive house with less income. This in turn created a huge inflation in house prices, and just like stocks in the late 90's, people have become obsessed with getting on board the real estate gravy train. The same low interest rates spurred a huge balloon in household debt as people have been relying more than ever on credit to buy the things they want, rather than the things they can truly afford. Many people took advantage of the low interest rates and refinanced, stripping the equity out of their houses to buy these "durable goods."

Foreclosures are up, and they will be increasing drastically in the next 2-3 years as people that purchased all they could afford and a little more will have to refinance their 3 year ARMs. This will result in a decline, yes decline, in housing prices across many metropolitan areas in the United States. As Greenspan has indicated, people are way too obsessed with the idea real estate will guarantee them a huge paycheck.

Debt consolodation has become big business, and credit card lobbiests have succeded in getting favorable legislation passed to remove the lender's responsibility to only lend appropriate amounts of money to people in this country.

All this in the face of a huge and continually growing budget deficit which hurts the value of the money people in this country are actually earning. The increase in per capita GDP over the past few years is largely attributable to the double digit increases in executive compensation.

CEO's now make 500x more than the base workers wage in the company. That's 10x more than any other nation in the world. With executive pay usually based on CEO payscales, it's a wonder average GDP is increasing.

Basically, the US economy IS screwed right now, but ridiculously low interest rates and tax breaks are artificially painting a pretty picture. Just like traditional value indicators in the stock market have been thrown to the wind, the traditional indicators for the economic status are void.

Bush has done a horrible job, and it's painfully obvious at this point. Only a fool would be so stubborn and arrogant to continue defending him. Even so, it's not like there were viable options to vote for in the last election anyway. It's six of one, and a half dozen of the other.

The republican party has become every bit as worthless as the democrats. Together, they have run this country, and the hopes and dreams of millions of American citizens straight into the ground, betraying the trust of the citizens at every turn. Whether it's the partisan bullshit keeping progress out of the capital or simply catering to each party's personal special interests, our representatives has become the most corrupt and sickening force in the world.

[82 GT]

Mr 5.0 , you're right, after readingUNITS last post, I do have a lack of understanding how the goverment works.
Having said that, his statement is more credible than what you're trying to say.
All the higher paying jobs are going to China and these "new jobs" being created are just like unit said...burger flippers, wal-mart, etc
If you look around and open your eyes, you will notice that more and more middle class Americans, including myself, are being forced to take second jobs in order to "stay ahead".
So, yes, the economy is in the shitter!
Just because YOU can afford $100/week in fuel doesn't mean the economy is "ok".
I admit I don't know everything about how the economy or goverment works but what is even more scary is the fact that you, and others like you, say "All is well"
I guarantee that you are not the type of person who comes home from work everyday with your hands dirty.
I don't have to be versed on how the economy works....all I need to do is live from day to day to know the economy sucks!
Open you eyes, get your head out of your ass and take a look around you and then say "All is doing well"
I bet you can't!

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

The jobs being created are low paying. More people work than ever before, taking jobs they don't want because they don't have a choice.

Really, now? Then how do you account for the rise in household income and the increase in sales of durable goods as well as homes, being that all the new jobs are so lousy? You are free to cling to the myth that the millions of newly created jobs in America are all low-pay and dead-end but that position, while faithfully trumpeted by many, is simply not congruent with reality.

Arguing home sales as a legitimate benchmark of the economy's situation is pretty weak. The fact is interest rates were ridiculously low, resulting in the ability to afford a more expensive house with less income. This in turn created a huge inflation in house prices, and just like stocks in the late 90's, people have become obsessed with getting on board the real estate gravy train. The same low interest rates spurred a huge balloon in household debt as people have been relying more than ever on credit to buy the things they want, rather than the things they can truly afford. Many people took advantage of the low interest rates and refinanced, stripping the equity out of their houses to buy these "durable goods."

Granted, the low interest rates are a major factor and some new home buyers are overextended, but why are the interest rates so low to begin with? Are banks just being generous? Of course not.

The economy is sound and the yield on the 10-year Treasury Note is 4 times the Feds benchmark of 1%. People see a sound economy, the Bush tax cuts put more money in our collective pockets and, despite the protestations of you and others, jobs are paying well and people are feeling more secure with their jobs, considering the almost record-low unemployment rate. That, and the fact that everybody wants to own their own home, for obvious emotional as well as financial reasons.

Foreclosures are up, and they will be increasing drastically in the next 2-3 years as people that purchased all they could afford and a little more will have to refinance their 3 year ARMs. This will result in a decline, yes decline, in housing prices across many metropolitan areas in the United States. As Greenspan has indicated, people are way too obsessed with the idea real estate will guarantee them a huge paycheck.

All that may be valid, Kell, but your also assuming that a lot of people buy homes for resale and very few actually do that. Their homes market value may well decline but if you intend to live in your home for at least 5 or more years, that is not a major concern, as it is only a 'paper' loss, not a tangible one. Foreclosures may go up some, as you claim, but with so many new homeowners and the vast array of mortgages available, that is almost inevitable. It will balance out.

Debt consolodation has become big business, and credit card lobbiests have succeded in getting favorable legislation passed to remove the lender's responsibility to only lend appropriate amounts of money to people in this country.

True. However, 'appropriate' is a relative term when you are telling someone how much he/she can borrow. Credit card companies routinely write off about 7% of their 'bad debts' each year and include that calculation in their financial decisions that give us usurious 24% APR's for some folks with less than perfect credit, making up the card companies (actually, banks) losses on bad debts. Caveat emptor remains a truism that too many people do not know, much less, heed...to their financial sorrow.

All this in the face of a huge and continually growing budget deficit which hurts the value of the money people in this country are actually earning. The increase in per capita GDP over the past few years is largely attributable to the double digit increases in executive compensation.

CEO's now make 500x more than the base workers wage in the company. That's 10x more than any other nation in the world. With executive pay usually based on CEO payscales, it's a wonder average GDP is increasing.

Actually, the projected federal budget deficit is shrinking by about a third. Inflation is still quite low at near 3% and the executive compensation issue is a red herring. Increased productivity is the driver behind the increase in GDP. Executives at big corporations have always received huge comp packages because they are usually responsible for thousands of people and millions of dollars of company money, as well as the ultimate success of the company. That hardly compares to a worker who has about 1/500th or less of the same kind of responsibility.

Corporations that pay their executives tens of millions in compensation and do not perform well will eventually go out of business, in most cases. As almost all major corporations are owned by shareholders, which tend to be 'working people', the executive raises are no secret and are also subject to questioning and eventual approval - or disapproval - by a corporate board - that can also be voted out by disgruntled shareholders who feel their stock is underperforming due to executive or board mismanagement.

To claim that a few thousand people (corporate executives) getting big salaries and perks somehow raise the annual GDP is a bit farfetched, to be kind about it. The comparison of executive to worker pay is an old one that anti-business people like to use because the numbers look startling. However, the fact that a guy doing an average job today for less than 8 hours and making the average pay of around $40,000. per year and a corporate executive running a major company and putting in 60 or 70 hours a week with enormous pressures makes the comparison a poor one, albeit handy to use for shock value to the uninformed.

Basically, the US economy IS screwed right now, but ridiculously low interest rates and tax breaks are artificially painting a pretty picture. Just like traditional value indicators in the stock market have been thrown to the wind, the traditional indicators for the economic status are void.

Sorry, Kell, but I find that dire analysis to be almost totally false. I have already given a lot of reasons why so I won't bother to repeat them.

Bush has done a horrible job, and it's painfully obvious at this point. Only a fool would be so stubborn and arrogant to continue defending him. Even so, it's not like there were viable options to vote for in the last election anyway. It's six of one, and a half dozen of the other.

Careful who you call 'fool', Kell. Simply disputing your conclusions on the state of the economy does not render anyone in this world a 'fool'. It simply means that we see the U.S. economy differently. I see the many positive indicators and are pleased while you see it being, metaphorically, two days before October 28, 1929. That kind of pessimistic view, claiming that President Bush has done 'a horrible job' and ignoring the many safeguards and protections now built-in to our economic system as you spout economic gloom-and-doom is simply nott supportable. You are welcome to your negative outlook but disagreement with it does not make me anyone' s fool, Kell. Please get that straight.

As for President Bush, he has done an outstanding job of bringing us back from a recession not of his making (but for which the left constantly blamed him). The 2002 tax bill that lowered the tax rates was necessary and just in time. It is showing it's benefits now as the economy expands, investors invest and the federal budget deficit shrinks due to increased tax revenues coming in from the increased wealth being generated. That you wave all this away as a 'bubble' is your option but I think it is wholly mistaken.

The republican party has become every bit as worthless as the democrats. Together, they have run this country, and the hopes and dreams of millions of American citizens straight into the ground, betraying the trust of the citizens at every turn. Whether it's the partisan bullshit keeping progress out of the capital or simply catering to each party's personal special interests, our representatives has become the most corrupt and sickening force in the world.

While I don't share your all-too familiar bitterness, I can agree that our political system is bascially corrupted and does not generally help the average guy, much less the small businessman. However, we prosper anyway, thanks to the hard work and ingenuity of Americans, few of whom would consider their 'hopes and dreams were run into the ground', as you so dramatically state it. America is still the land of opportunity and success stories abound, every single day. That you seem to see only the negative and so, carry a cynical and pessmistic attitude into your conclusions of the U.S. and it's free market, capitalist economy is your choice and, as I see it, your loss.

Tens of millions of Americans would disagree with that assessment - and they would be right. Any economy is fragile - as we saw after 9/11 - and subject to many alterations and swings but ours is healthy and doing well. That you can't agree is fine...the economy will surge along with or without your approval, but your gloom-and-doom outlook is based on a lot of false asumptions and conclusions, in my opinion. However, that's why we have these boards...so people can express their opinions. I'll let others decided who's opinion they prefer but I'm very confident with my mine.