Re: Cops, part 10
 

The rate of fatal workplace injuries to police officers and other law enforcement personnel averaged about 14 per 100,000 employed for the period 1992-97, compared to an average rate of 5 per 100,000 employed for all occupations.
(U.S. Department of Labor)

"More sympathetic," Why? Police Officers many times run toward danger so that we don't have to.

Police Officers are not all "professionals." Neither is the conveniance store clerk, neither is the teacher, etc.

Again Again, nothing justifies poor policing. Law abiding citizens should not be harrassed. However, when you break the law you should be aware of the possible consequences.

Re: Cops, cops and more cops!
 

I've been trying to avoid replying further to this thread, but I had to take this bait.

When a cop is injured or killed on the job, it happened while he was trying to protect me, period. The only thing a convenience store clerk seems to do for me is give me the wrong change because he can't do simple math. Comparing the two lines of work is silly. Why not throw heroin addicts into the mix. Is someone going to suggest paying them $50k a year? All three die doing something they chose to do knowing the risks. So what? I feel alot safer in my world with the cops patrolling the streets than I do with some zit faced kid over-charging for a 6-pack of Coke.

Everyone else-

This whole thread seems to have gone to a severe extreme to make a point, which I myself am sometimes guilty of, but c'mon. Corruption anywhere sucks. Corrupt cops exist, but no one is going to convince me there is a problem with it that deserves anymore attention than corruption anywhere else.

Get over it.

Take care,
-Chris

Cops...
 

So I got pulled over for not having a current sticker on my Datsun. It was in my glove compartment. I had to keep from laughing because I knew why I was getting pulled over, and that I wouldn't get a ticket. But what I did was wrong, and I could have gotten a ticket.

If you break the law, any law, you run a risk of getting in trouble. I am going to speed on the way to Vegas tonight, and if I get a ticket, I lose. If I make it all the way at 80, I win. It doesn't change the fact that I will break the law.

I have some friends that are cops, so I hear stories. Cops often give tickets that they don't want to. Yes its true. When you see a cop, you expect he is going to enforce the law, everyone does. So if you see a cop on the side of the road and someone goes by speeding, he will pull them over. Even if the cop has someplace else to go. It is merely because of the public expectation. Additionally, when the lights go on, their cameras start rolling. This is why people rarely get warnings anymore. Supervisors can replay the tapes any time and scrutinize them. I don't have anyone videotaping my day, I don't know if anyone here does.

About cops running twoard danger, I commend them for it. I'm not going to get in the middle of a gunfight, I don't carry a peice. I have been first on scene of accidents, and done what I could to help. As car enthusiasts there is knowledge we have about cars that can make the scene of an accident safer, even if you don't have first aid and cpr.

There are good cops and bad cops, as is the case with any service field. But it seems that people pay more attention to the bad ones, than anything else. It sucks, I agree.

It all goes back to Rousseau's Social Contract. Individuals give up some rights to be more free. Honestly whats the big deal in no front tint, and having a moderate exhaust?:confused:

SOrry, had to say something here. I get video taped everyday at work. We have cameras on the flightline, and yes they can be used aginst us. Sorry, again, just had to add.


Hehe, this thread went from a stupid ticket, to extreme cop hate.

Cops, ad nauseum
 

PKRWUD:

Glad you decided to 'take the bait'. How's it taste?


Get over it? That sum up your argument? O.K.

Personally, I have no trouble with the police and haven't received a ticket in 11 years. I have nothing to 'get over'.

I consider cops to be very necessary, as I've stated numerous times here, but I also consider them to be dangerous as they have immense power to make your life very unpleasant should they wish to do so, regardless of your 'guilt'. I accept that risk as part of the social contract 'The Duece' alluded to. The police protect me - to a point - and I accept the slight risk of being the victim of police abuse on occasion (it hasn't happened yet). Keeps me honest.

The whole convenience store clerk vs cop argument came into play as a simple comparison to make the point that the cops who are injured 'in the line of duty' are fewer in number than convenience store clerks who are injured in their line of duty (giving you the wrong change).

Chris, surely you (and elliotness) realized that the clerk's job wasn't being directly compared to the cop's job. I only used the comparative statistics to help illuminate the fact that a lot of people are killed or injured doing their job. Cops are not immune or somehow unique in this regard, they simply are better recognized.

I do not accept the premise that since police work is dangerous (granted, many times) cops get a pass on any stupid thing they do to harrass motorists. Nope, not by me they don't. They are accountable, at least in theory, and the constant assertions that cops are somehow superior beings that deserve more leeway than others due to the danger of the job they volunteer to do doesn't work for me. It's irrevelant to the issue of police officers acting - as the thread topic stated - stupidly.

Many cops are downright heroic at times but some small-town cops would be working an assembly line or bagging groceries somewhere if they didn't get on the force. They are not all noble. Some are corrupt as hell and some are actively working with criminals in the drug trade. Scandals erupt in cities and towns across the nation every month regarding police malfeasence. It's a fact that can't be denied.

That's changing, I admit, but the Barney Fifes are still out there and there are many locations where traffic police patrols serve mostly to generate income from traffic tickets they give out for minor or trivial violations. That stinks and it's the fault of both the politicians that encourage it and the cops that willingly engage in the corrupt practice.

Saying 'it's the law' misses the point that it's a misuse of the law to stop people for tinted glass or exhaust noise that endangers no one and bothers no one but the cop, then to issue possibly expensive citations for these minor violations. That's a waste of time, annoying to the motorist that otherwise respects authority and undermines public respect for police work.

That same cop may save a life tomorrow but the motorist he harassed over a muffler today, will always see him as a jerk. That perception is his reality and it spreads with each misuse of the law but the over-zealous cop using poor judgement.

The Duce thinks breaking traffic laws is a game and he accepts the consequences if he 'loses'. Fair enough. Most of us share that attitude. However, a cop combing over your car and nit-picking for a crooked license plate or other harmless 'violation' is bogus and foolish, as it undermines law-abiding citizen's confidence in the police authority to be fair and impartial. Dumb. To the average citizen, the fact that the cop 'could be killed in the line of duty' doesn't impress much and elliotness admits as much in his last post, I'm pleased to note. (Thanks).

On the videotaping issue; it's a great idea as it keeps the police officer honest and protects him, too, should he be accused of brutality or other bogus charge.

Many workplaces are installing videotaping equipment, including factories and offices across the nation. It's legal and used to spot theft and general goofing off as well as possible sexual harrassment. Soon, most of us will be on tape every day, like it or not. Again, the police aren't unique in this area, either.

mustang_man:

This is in no way a 'hate cops' thread. You need to re-read the posts. We may disagree about policing methods and police immunity to criticism but no one actually 'hates' cops. Well, maybe Unit 5302 does, but I doubt it. Don't confuse disagreement, criticism or dissent with 'hate'. Huge difference and you want to use that word carefully.

Good cops, bad cops, smart cops, dumb cops, honest cops, corrupt cops, nasty cops, friendly cops. I'm tired of discussing cops.

Outta here.

Fun, too! :D


I had a point somewhere, but I couldn't convey it as effectively as Mr 5 0. If you and I were lawyers, sir, my client would be in jail. ;)

I lose this round. Have a nice weekend, bud.

Ok, so maybe "hate" was a bad word to use, but there was a lot of bashing going on here. If u think of it, the word cop, has always been a sore subjuect with motorists. A lot of ppl think that all cops are out to get us. But those are the guilty few. I too get anyoed when I see a cop pull right up behind me just to read my plates, thinking, "Oh great, what does he want now." But there have been times where I did something wrong, and I get scared when a cop pulls up behind me.

My first ticket I ever got was from a corupt officer. I had my cruise comtrol set at 55 right after passing some slow cars, which I passed at 55, (they were going 45). This was at night when my blinkers wern't working. I was about to change lanes, so I checked all my mirrors, blind spots, everything, no one was around me. So I changed. About 30 sec after I changed lanes, I saw bright lights on behind me, and it scared me because just a moment ago, no one was there.

He pulles me over and says that he was following me the whole was and I was going 70mph in a 50. Well, that wasn't true, but I got the ticket anyway. I was going to fight it, but didn't because of the Air Force, and I couldn't miss work.

SO now I have a ticket for something I didn't even do, and it haunts me.

My final words are, some cops are dicks, and they give everyone else a bad name.

Re: Cops, ad nauseum
 

Like chicken.

No, it doesn't, but I'll give it now. Get comfy.

That was specifically not aimed at you, Jim, which is why it followed the paragraph addressed to Everyone else.

While I agree that it happens, I don't agree that it happens to the degree that others have eluded to. I think the actual number of "dangerous" cops is miniscule per capita in law enforcement. I would be shocked if the real number was more than 1%. That's why I don't see this as a big deal, and the bashing that has taken place in this thread, by others, is for the most part uncalled for. I don't begin to pretend to understand everyones situation, or circumstances that may have occured in their lives that affect their perception, but I do grow tired of seeing what I believe to be an honorable, difficult profession being trashed because of someones childhood trauma. Again, this is not directed at anything you said. You should know me well enough to know that when I disagree with you specifically, I don't waste any time letting you know, and make it perfectly clear what it is you said that I have issues with. The bait you left for me was in regard to someone elses point, and it was to that point that I replied.

I never felt that you were making that kind of comparison, but that was the subject of the bait.

Okay, this is where I get lost. I don't recall ever reading that insinuation in anybodies reply. I read where others believe that it happens, but I didn't see where anybody justified it.

This is up for very little debate, I'm afraid. As I tried to make clear in my first post, there are noise restictions on the books in California, and cops are encouraged to enforce them. Not just by the muffler shop chain that donates to money to the elected officials re-election campaign, but by the citizens. One thing people seem to really like to complain about is noise. We get threatened with losing our racetrack every year because some new guy who moved to town near the fairgrounds didn't realize there were Sprint car races there every weekend for 8 months out of the year, and complains to the city about the noise. There are at least a dozen such letters to the editor every season, too. The track averages 1500 paying fans every single Saturday night, but is it them that the City Council takes into consideration? No, it's the handful of whiners. This year we had to get new mufflers that reduced the noise to 96 decibles, in order to appease those in power that are listening to the few, rather than the many. They cost us $300 each. Oh well. The complaints will still come in, and we'll just have to deal with it.

Kaspar said he has Cherry Bombs on his Mustang, which are nothing more than painted glass-packs. I have no doubt at all that it's a loud car. I also doubt that it is legal. The law clearly states that motor vehicles used on public highways can not exceed 82 decibles while driving under 35 mph, or 90 decibles while driving over 35 mph. It's the first limit that get's most people busted because that's when most people hit WOT. Once their speed picks up, the throttle opening lessens, the rpm's drop, and the noise deminishes. Two kids at a traffic light that don't know any better are prime examples of those that break this law, and odds are that some grandmother is nearby enough to hear it, and she may complain about it.

Because of this, and because of all the annoyingly loud exhaust systems I heard while in Florida for Christmas, I don't see this issue as being nearly as trivial as you, and others, seem to. It goes alot deeper than just some cop with an attitude harassing people with "slightly modified" exhaust systems. There are alot of people that are driving around with no mufflers, or ones that have been gutted out, or those that are too cheap to replace the pipes that are nearly dragging on the ground. They do not emit the sounds of a well tuned muscle machine, they sound like a series of M-80s going off in a large dumpster. Not terribly appealing to anyone, other than the driver. These are, for the most part, the ones who get stopped. I haven't met one person yet who's exhaust was sensible, and without problems, that was pulled over here for noise. You'd be surprised at the details you'll find when you investigate the claims a little deeper.



This is the part that I really find amusing. I have been "victimized" by cops as often as anyone here, yet I'm the one who seems to be defending them. I have had cops comb over my car(s) with a fine tooth comb looking for BS violations. I received a ticket one time for having my stereo too loud. My 1969 Chevelle SS bone-stock 8-Track, un-externally-amplified stereo. The cop was 4 car lengths ahead of me on Van Nuys Blvd. on a cruise night, and he was purely doing it to hassle me, in the hopes that I would stay away on cruise nights. Another night cruising in the Chevelle, I was pulled over for failing to use a turn signal when changing lanes. The cop asked me to open my hood because he didn't believe it was stock. Back then, there was no such thing as "smog legal" hi-po parts. If it wasn't stock, it was illegal. He wrote me a ticket for having a chrome Moroso air cleaner. I was headed out to the street races one night, and was pulled over for the sole reason that I was obviously on my way there. When the cop asked me for my license, I asked him what I did wrong. His reply was that he hadn't decided yet, but he was sure he could find something. He did. He wrote me a ticket for having less than 2/32" tread on one spot, on one tire, and I had to roll the car back 2 feet before he found it. I recieved a ticket one time while parked at Balboa Park (very popular hang-out back then) in the S.F. Valley on a Saturday night because I had several Mickey's Beer labels across the very top of my windshield. I was stopped while cruising Main Street here in Ventura the first weekend after I moved up here because I had a USA-1 license plate on the front of my Chevelle. 6 months later, I received a ticket for having too loud of an exhaust because one of my collector bolts fell out, and I kept driving it anyway. All of these were while driving my red/black Super Sport. I received literally dozens of traffic tickets between 1982 and 1988, most of which were BS nit-picking tickets.

What I see now, however, that I didn't see then, was that even though I wasn't causing anybody any harm, I was usually in or around a situation that was a problem, and that the cops were trying to curtail, like street racing, drinking at a park, and cruising major blvds. This was at a time when there were problems associated with cruising, like crime in the stores along Van Nuys Blvd, and more. In fact, it got so bad that they eventually had to completely close down Van Nuys Blvd. from 6pm until 11pm every Wed., Fri., and Sat. night. This went on for months before the cruisers finally stopped coming, and the problems went away. We hated them for it, but only because we were unable to see the bigger picture. I have since met 2 cops who worked there then, and had to bust poeple who wouldn't leave for anything they could. They both said the same thing to me, which was that they hated having to do that, and in fact they both had grown up cruising Van Nuys Blvd. themselves.

There have still been a few times where I was unquestionably harassed for no justifiable reason, but I still say that kind of thing is no where near as commonplace as others would have you believe.

Okay, now I'm done.

Peace.

Take care,
-Chris

Cops out of my ears!
 

Kaspar:

Thanks for validating my point.

Yes, it's very scary and induces instant spincter-tightening to unexepctedly see those red and blue flashing lights in your rearview mirror. Who doesn't get a queasy feeling when that happens? That's part of the power of the police and they know it. Intimidation.

One can be a responsible citizen in every way, but drive down the highway and suddenly see those lights in your rear-view mirror and you feel about 5 years old and helpless, at least for a second or two. This is especially common for a new driver.

Then, have a cop with a 'tude (for no reason other than you're young or have a Mustang) start looking for petty 'violations' just to harrass you and abuse his authority, well, it pisses people off, big-time. Handing out bogus tickets just cements the animus and contempt for the police. For what? So Barney Fife can 'show you who's boss'? This is where negative attitudes toward police stem from. Stories like yours, Kasper.

This is also why these types are usually still doing traffic duty when they're 40 instead of moving up the ranks to a higher position or at least better duty.

Look, it's one thing to knowingly do 80 in a 55 zone, get caught and ticketed. You may not like it much but you know you 'played the game' and lost. You deserved the ticket, even if you didn't like receiving it. Lesson learned.

On the other hand, being unfairly ticketed (like you) or harrassed for trivial stuff that endangers no one is what rankles most people and justifiably so. Someone telling you that 'The cop has a dangerous job and could get killed' means little or nothing when your being legally screwed over by some cop with a desire to ruin your day just because he can.

Your experiences are typical of the negative attitude some have toward police, especially where traffic laws are concerned. We all try to stay 'clean', no one wants tickets, but when you're ticketed for petty stuff it generates a poor perception of police work and for most of us, our perception is our reality.

Good, smart cops know this and use good judgement and develop a reasonable attitude when dealing with ordinary citizens in a traffic stop. They're the good guys, I support them and I believe they're in the majority.

I would prefer to leave it at that.

Jim-
I'm only adding this to bring it back to your attention because it appears to me as though we both replied at about the same time (see the reply just before your last one), and while you can type quickly, it was a labor for me. I'm interested in your feedback to what I had to say.

Take care,
-Chris

Cops forever
 

Chris:

Your youthful experiences with the police are interesting but I see two things.

First, your last traffic hassle was almost 15 years ago (much like my last ticket) which dims the emotional impact quite a bit and of course, (secondly), you're older and more mature and can see the 'big picture' which seems clear as glass, now, as you explain it. Cops wanted to keep the cruisers away and they hassled you to make it unpleasant to be there.

I agree that many of the stories we see on this board regarding police 'harrassment' may be very one-sided and leave out some important facts, but it's the internet and you have to understand that no one ever is 100% honest about these situations, especially if they wish to make a point. I get that.

A lot of the problems younger people may encounter with cops often comes from getting an attitude; you know, No one tells ME what to do that guarantees trouble when you pull it on a law officer. Understood.

The problem with these long threads that stretch out over many days is that points get lost and people forget what others said or just miss the point, entirely. I made my point, many times here, that overall, cops are necessary and decent people doing an important job. I have no problem with police, but I recognize their weaknesses and I know they sometimes fail to use reasonable judgement, especially with young people.

My real argument was against the folks who fall back on 'They could be killed' as a response to accusations of police misconduct or even unreasonableness. I don't appreciate bumper-sticker slogans being used as an argument and I attempt to shred that kind of knee-jerk non-thinking response whenever I see it.

In any case, I'm growing weary of the subject and would like to leave this thread. We've seen some interesting points raised and had a good discussion but I've pretty much expressed all I have to add to the debate at this point.

I appreciate your comments and your sharing your experiences to help illuminate the subject a bit more. We always welcome thoughtful input here, Chis, so thanks for yours.

i figure i would throw my .02 cents in:

James-

LOL, that's one of my favorite one liners! Go figure.

jim-

Agreed. I guess I just missed where someone was justifying that kind of behavior with the "dangerous job" angle. Either way, this horse is certainly ready to be put out to pasture.

Take care,
-Chris

Cops final episode
 

Chris:

Check the first page in the thread.

In reference to the mention of how dangerous police work can be, Kell asked why cops think they deserve a 'pat on the back' just for doing their job.

'Jeb Bush' responded:

Because every time they put on that badge...every time they pull someone over for any reason...any time they respond to any kind of call...there is a chance they will die.

Things kind of took off from that point.

Thanks for taking the time to point that out, but I guess I just don't read that the same way you do. I think cops do deserve a pat on the back for doing their job. I think firefighters do too. In fact, there are several professions that I feel that way about.

Perhaps we had a different take on the term "pat on the back"? I'm not sure, but it really doesn't matter anymore. I know where you stand, and the ground looks pretty agreeable to me.

Take care,
-Chris