Subframe Story -Long and Rambling-

Skyman · 01-06-2001, 02:27 AM

I went to get my subframes put in today. I was picking them up at Muscle Motors and then going to have them welded. So they ended up not having them so I was sent to Granatelli Motorsports to get them. THe guys there were really great and very helpful w/ my car. Found out my motor mounts are shot, and the horrible clunking Ive been having for a year is probably the motor mounts and shot tranny mounts too.

The guy then went on to try and sell me their whole tublar coil over front end deal. Came in around $850 for everything. And he says it will take 200lbs off the front end and I will be able to pull the front tires after that. Sounds pretty good if its true.

I'm definatly thinking about doing it.

Well anyways I get back to get the subframes on, and the muffler shop cant figure em out. We went back and forth tryin to figure them out. So they tack weld em up, I drive back to Granatelli and they say they are fine. So I go back to the muffler shop, and Granatelli calls and say I have the wrong kind. UGH!!! I go back and get others. They blame it on Muscle Motors saying that the Tubeular subframes arent for my car. So then I go back tro the muffler shop and they cut off the old subframes and weld the new ones in.
Total cost was $150 for frames and welding. I guess thats decent. They didnt weld them all the way, they welded them on the ends, is that right? I was thinkin they'd weld em all the way.

Couple other interesting notes.
The guy at Granatelli told me his 91 GT went 12.50@113mph with Edelbrock heads and a B cam. DAMN Whats wrong with my car!?! Jack at Muscle Motors says his 89 GT went 13.0@105mph with E cam, cobra intake, pulleys and full exhaust with 3.27 gear on stock heads! Thats faster than my car.
WTF's wrong with me?

Also I had my pipes cut and I had turn downs put on. Its definatly a LOT louder inside. But its not my daily driver anymore so thats ok, and I like the low rumble at idle.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft.
Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

Skyman · 01-06-2001, 02:34 AM

BTW, I cant really tell much of a difference w/ the subframes, should I be able too?

Sky

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft.
Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

97snakedriver · 01-06-2001, 02:57 AM

I could. My brother could in his car. Not a subtle thing either.

01-06-2001, 05:18 AM

Well Sky I have a story myself about my subframe connectors being welded.No-One wanted to weld the damn things!!! I finally found a exhaust shop in town here that was willing & able to do it.Everybody I talked to before hand,were all so scared "the interior of the car was gonna catch on fire" *lol* yeah whatever.Anyways glad you finally got yours welded.Your car will be alot firmer now(less flex).

BTW:You do have a 12 sec car Sky,I have no doubt about that at all.You just need to get the power to the pavement.

------------------
Paxton Blown 87GT

Mr 5 0 · 01-06-2001, 02:21 PM

Skyman:

Yes, the sub-frame connectors are welded on the ends, only. That is the proper way to do it, so you're fine.

You won't notice a big difference just going down the road, but the car should feel tighter over railroad tracks and when you take a sweeper-type turn (i.e. interstate exit or entrance ramp) you should certainly feel a noticable difference in how your Mustang handles. Sub-frame connectors are an excellent investment and worth having on any 'Stang; but especially if you race it and have a fast car, like yours (despite your frustrations regarding getting into the 12's). Enjoy the improved suspension.

01-06-2001, 06:25 PM

When I had my Kenny Brown subs put on I couldn't tell any difference. I was supposedly gonna see a BIG difference, I couldn't. Now they say a roll cage will tighten the car up quite a bit, that I believe. Remember this is on a convertable..

ed1371 · 01-07-2001, 03:06 AM

ummm...I dont know if just welding the ends is correct. I have read in numerous mags that you should run 2-3 inch beads with about 4-5 inch spaces in between. That is exactly how mine were installed by JBA in san diego too...might want to check on it...

I noticed a BIG difference after getting them. I have a convert though and they are so twisty you have to get them.

Mr 5 0 · 01-07-2001, 03:49 PM

My Global-West tubular sub-frame connectors were installed according to the manufacturers instructions, which clearly stated that welding them at the ends was the proper way of installing them. Other manufacturers may advise other methods and flat sub-frame connectors may work better with beads along the rim, but based on my experience, I stand by my earlier statement.

As for 'feeling' the difference; some say they do not, which I find surprising, based - again - on my personal experience.
Maybe some folks are more sensitive to this than others, maybe unrealistic expectations are the problem, I don't know, but when you tighten up a unibody car like the Mustang, it does make a handling difference; even if the driver doesn't 'feel' it - it's there.

Five0 · 01-07-2001, 05:48 PM

I did not notice a big difference when I welded my sub frames on but I did tighten up the ride a little but nothing like the roll cage did. The roll cage made a huge difference, It felt like a different car, it is a bit of a pain in the a$$ sometimes but I love it.
BTW: some sub frames are supposed to be welded up on the ends only (round) and some are welded further up like ed1371 said (usually square).

------------------
James Cox
nochevy@hotmail.com
1991 Mustang LX
Best 1/8 time on motor 7.686 @90.20mph

Skyman · 01-07-2001, 09:43 PM

Hmm, I had the round tubulars first, and they couldnt figure those out. So I got the long rectangular ones. Basically straight. Seemed cheaper than the tubulars. Maybe I'll go somewher eelse and have em finish welding them.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft.
Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

Rebel79 · 01-08-2001, 10:34 AM

How long have I been telling you to stay away from Jack and Muscle Motors? He doesn't know what he is talking about!

Its about time you went to Granatelli, although I don't know where they are at.

Give me a ring Sky, there is a huge Mustang Meet in Dublin on Saturday so you NEED to some. Its mostly Stangnet and MustangWorld stangers but you NEED to go. Besides I have yet to see your car.

------------------
1994 Mustang Cobra
308ci, Vortech S-trim 11#, ported GT-40 heads, E-303 cam, FMS 1 5/8 headers, BBK Offroad H-pipe, 2-chamber flows, and several other goodies.
Rebel Racing. Home of Bay Area Mustangs

Mustang92 · 01-08-2001, 12:37 PM

Just put in a set myself last weekend and noticed a big difference. These are the UPR subframe connectors which are square tubing with the re-enforcements for the seats. We welded them in the front, and sides as well leaving small gaps between 3" welds.

Of course I'm running a drag suspension for the most part and with no sway bar any tightening of the suspension is noticable. The biggest difference I noticed is that from a dead stop launch the front of the car pulls evenly instead of the left going higher than the right. We'll see how much of a difference on Wednesday for the first Test and Tune of 2001.

------------------
00 GT, K&N, MAC Tree Killer, Pullies, 4.10’s, 2 chamber Flowmasters, UPR shifter, Weld Pro Stars, Nitto DR’s 13.21@100.90 (1.87 60ft)244.6RWHP
M/M 100
88 LX coupe X-FHP, 12pt Cage, UPR K-member, 31 spline rear, full spool, more to come

[This message has been edited by Mustang92 (edited 01-08-2001).]

red82gt · 01-08-2001, 02:25 PM

THe manufacturer of my subframes instructed me to get them welded with beads parallel to the car along the framerail and to weld them 2" at a time then go to the rear, opposite side, back and forth, and NOT to weld the ends. My subframes did not come with brackets because they were intended to be welded only.

BTW the car quit wheelhopping, twisting, rattling, and felt much tighter afterwards.

------------------
GT-40 heads (ported, polished, + milled), B303 cam, 1.7rr's, JE pistons, Offy intake, Carter AFB 625cfm carb, Flowtech 1 5/8" shortys, Flowtech X-pipe, MAC Flowpath exhaust, MAC pulleys, 373's, subframes, Eibachs+Tokicos, B+M ripper, FMS Clutch, Zoom Quadrant+cable, 17" CSA Ultra rims, 235/45ZR17 Yokohama AVS S4's, MSD 6A ignition+coil, FMS 9mm wires, Carbed, Naturally Aspirated, and Nasty!

spinemup · 01-08-2001, 04:27 PM

i bought my car with the kenny brown units already welded in. i don't like them much. they are too flimsey. id rather opt for the heavier hpm or southside units. i think i am actually gonna cut mine out and weld in new ones.

fastang · 01-09-2001, 03:53 PM

I have the Kenny Browns too. I like them and got better launches out of them. I really dont care how my car handles I just want to launch. I finaly got my Factory 5 cont arms in and should have those on soon.

My subs were also welded in on both sides of each sub, but not down the center at all.

------------------
95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, K&N, off road pipes, ADS chip, pulleys, msd coil,9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, weld in subframe connectors

Skyman · 01-09-2001, 04:53 PM

Scott- Yeah I realized that now. He was just so nice always. His prices are decent but thats about it. His 8sec mustang just awed me

. Anyways, I thought that I told you I moved back down here.

The rent was killing me at $1400/mo and I wasn't making any money. So I decieded to come back and go back to college for a while and try and get a job down here once I am done, as this is where I wanna be. But I'll probably go up and visit my old roommate Mike soon and we can hook up then. He just bought a nice black/black 97 Cobra too.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft.
Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

01-06-2001, 02:27 AM	#1
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	Subframe Story -Long and Rambling- I went to get my subframes put in today. I was picking them up at Muscle Motors and then going to have them welded. So they ended up not having them so I was sent to Granatelli Motorsports to get them. THe guys there were really great and very helpful w/ my car. Found out my motor mounts are shot, and the horrible clunking Ive been having for a year is probably the motor mounts and shot tranny mounts too. The guy then went on to try and sell me their whole tublar coil over front end deal. Came in around $850 for everything. And he says it will take 200lbs off the front end and I will be able to pull the front tires after that. Sounds pretty good if its true. I'm definatly thinking about doing it. Well anyways I get back to get the subframes on, and the muffler shop cant figure em out. We went back and forth tryin to figure them out. So they tack weld em up, I drive back to Granatelli and they say they are fine. So I go back to the muffler shop, and Granatelli calls and say I have the wrong kind. UGH!!! I go back and get others. They blame it on Muscle Motors saying that the Tubeular subframes arent for my car. So then I go back tro the muffler shop and they cut off the old subframes and weld the new ones in. Total cost was $150 for frames and welding. I guess thats decent. They didnt weld them all the way, they welded them on the ends, is that right? I was thinkin they'd weld em all the way. Couple other interesting notes. The guy at Granatelli told me his 91 GT went 12.50@113mph with Edelbrock heads and a B cam. DAMN Whats wrong with my car!?! Jack at Muscle Motors says his 89 GT went 13.0@105mph with E cam, cobra intake, pulleys and full exhaust with 3.27 gear on stock heads! Thats faster than my car. WTF's wrong with me? Also I had my pipes cut and I had turn downs put on. Its definatly a LOT louder inside. But its not my daily driver anymore so thats ok, and I like the low rumble at idle. Skyler ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft. Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

01-06-2001, 02:34 AM	#2
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	BTW, I cant really tell much of a difference w/ the subframes, should I be able too? Sky ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft. Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

01-06-2001, 02:57 AM	#3
97snakedriver Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Blacksburg, VA Posts: 1,526	I could. My brother could in his car. Not a subtle thing either.

01-06-2001, 05:18 AM	#4
Mustanguy Guest Posts: n/a	Well Sky I have a story myself about my subframe connectors being welded.No-One wanted to weld the damn things!!! I finally found a exhaust shop in town here that was willing & able to do it.Everybody I talked to before hand,were all so scared "the interior of the car was gonna catch on fire" lol yeah whatever.Anyways glad you finally got yours welded.Your car will be alot firmer now(less flex). BTW:You do have a 12 sec car Sky,I have no doubt about that at all.You just need to get the power to the pavement. ------------------ Paxton Blown 87GT

01-06-2001, 02:21 PM	#5
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Skyman: Yes, the sub-frame connectors are welded on the ends, only. That is the proper way to do it, so you're fine. You won't notice a big difference just going down the road, but the car should feel tighter over railroad tracks and when you take a sweeper-type turn (i.e. interstate exit or entrance ramp) you should certainly feel a noticable difference in how your Mustang handles. Sub-frame connectors are an excellent investment and worth having on any 'Stang; but especially if you race it and have a fast car, like yours (despite your frustrations regarding getting into the 12's). Enjoy the improved suspension.

01-06-2001, 06:25 PM	#6
rbatson Guest Posts: n/a	When I had my Kenny Brown subs put on I couldn't tell any difference. I was supposedly gonna see a BIG difference, I couldn't. Now they say a roll cage will tighten the car up quite a bit, that I believe. Remember this is on a convertable..

01-07-2001, 03:06 AM	#7
ed1371 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 469	ummm...I dont know if just welding the ends is correct. I have read in numerous mags that you should run 2-3 inch beads with about 4-5 inch spaces in between. That is exactly how mine were installed by JBA in san diego too...might want to check on it... I noticed a BIG difference after getting them. I have a convert though and they are so twisty you have to get them.

01-07-2001, 03:49 PM	#8
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	My Global-West tubular sub-frame connectors were installed according to the manufacturers instructions, which clearly stated that welding them at the ends was the proper way of installing them. Other manufacturers may advise other methods and flat sub-frame connectors may work better with beads along the rim, but based on my experience, I stand by my earlier statement. As for 'feeling' the difference; some say they do not, which I find surprising, based - again - on my personal experience. Maybe some folks are more sensitive to this than others, maybe unrealistic expectations are the problem, I don't know, but when you tighten up a unibody car like the Mustang, it does make a handling difference; even if the driver doesn't 'feel' it - it's there.

01-07-2001, 05:48 PM	#9
Five0 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: middleburg, fl, usa Posts: 1,134	I did not notice a big difference when I welded my sub frames on but I did tighten up the ride a little but nothing like the roll cage did. The roll cage made a huge difference, It felt like a different car, it is a bit of a pain in the a$$ sometimes but I love it. BTW: some sub frames are supposed to be welded up on the ends only (round) and some are welded further up like ed1371 said (usually square). ------------------ James Cox nochevy@hotmail.com 1991 Mustang LX Best 1/8 time on motor 7.686 @90.20mph

01-07-2001, 09:43 PM	#10
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	Hmm, I had the round tubulars first, and they couldnt figure those out. So I got the long rectangular ones. Basically straight. Seemed cheaper than the tubulars. Maybe I'll go somewher eelse and have em finish welding them. Skyler ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft. Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...

01-08-2001, 10:34 AM	#11
Rebel79 News Editor Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 2,101	How long have I been telling you to stay away from Jack and Muscle Motors? He doesn't know what he is talking about! Its about time you went to Granatelli, although I don't know where they are at. Give me a ring Sky, there is a huge Mustang Meet in Dublin on Saturday so you NEED to some. Its mostly Stangnet and MustangWorld stangers but you NEED to go. Besides I have yet to see your car. ------------------ 1994 Mustang Cobra 308ci, Vortech S-trim 11#, ported GT-40 heads, E-303 cam, FMS 1 5/8 headers, BBK Offroad H-pipe, 2-chamber flows, and several other goodies. Rebel Racing. Home of Bay Area Mustangs

01-08-2001, 12:37 PM	#12
Mustang92 Drag Racer! Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Lake Worth, FL USA Posts: 757	Just put in a set myself last weekend and noticed a big difference. These are the UPR subframe connectors which are square tubing with the re-enforcements for the seats. We welded them in the front, and sides as well leaving small gaps between 3" welds. Of course I'm running a drag suspension for the most part and with no sway bar any tightening of the suspension is noticable. The biggest difference I noticed is that from a dead stop launch the front of the car pulls evenly instead of the left going higher than the right. We'll see how much of a difference on Wednesday for the first Test and Tune of 2001. ------------------ 00 GT, K&N, MAC Tree Killer, Pullies, 4.10’s, 2 chamber Flowmasters, UPR shifter, Weld Pro Stars, Nitto DR’s 13.21@100.90 (1.87 60ft)244.6RWHP M/M 100 88 LX coupe X-FHP, 12pt Cage, UPR K-member, 31 spline rear, full spool, more to come [This message has been edited by Mustang92 (edited 01-08-2001).]

01-08-2001, 02:25 PM	#13
red82gt Sober voice of Reason Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Kelowna, B.C., Canada Posts: 1,514	THe manufacturer of my subframes instructed me to get them welded with beads parallel to the car along the framerail and to weld them 2" at a time then go to the rear, opposite side, back and forth, and NOT to weld the ends. My subframes did not come with brackets because they were intended to be welded only. BTW the car quit wheelhopping, twisting, rattling, and felt much tighter afterwards. ------------------ GT-40 heads (ported, polished, + milled), B303 cam, 1.7rr's, JE pistons, Offy intake, Carter AFB 625cfm carb, Flowtech 1 5/8" shortys, Flowtech X-pipe, MAC Flowpath exhaust, MAC pulleys, 373's, subframes, Eibachs+Tokicos, B+M ripper, FMS Clutch, Zoom Quadrant+cable, 17" CSA Ultra rims, 235/45ZR17 Yokohama AVS S4's, MSD 6A ignition+coil, FMS 9mm wires, Carbed, Naturally Aspirated, and Nasty!

01-08-2001, 04:27 PM	#14
spinemup Registered Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: middleboro,ma, usa Posts: 734	i bought my car with the kenny brown units already welded in. i don't like them much. they are too flimsey. id rather opt for the heavier hpm or southside units. i think i am actually gonna cut mine out and weld in new ones.

01-09-2001, 03:53 PM	#15
fastang Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: santa ana ca Posts: 1,349	I have the Kenny Browns too. I like them and got better launches out of them. I really dont care how my car handles I just want to launch. I finaly got my Factory 5 cont arms in and should have those on soon. My subs were also welded in on both sides of each sub, but not down the center at all. ------------------ 95GT B303 cam, 1.7 rockers, 65mm TB, 73mm MAF, milled heads, K&N, off road pipes, ADS chip, pulleys, msd coil,9mm wires, Tremec 3550, Pro5.0 shifter,10.5 Motorsport clutch, weld in subframe connectors

01-09-2001, 04:53 PM	#16
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	Scott- Yeah I realized that now. He was just so nice always. His prices are decent but thats about it. His 8sec mustang just awed me . Anyways, I thought that I told you I moved back down here. The rent was killing me at $1400/mo and I wasn't making any money. So I decieded to come back and go back to college for a while and try and get a job down here once I am done, as this is where I wanna be. But I'll probably go up and visit my old roommate Mike soon and we can hook up then. He just bought a nice black/black 97 Cobra too. Skyler ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shorty headers, Offroad-Hpipe, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, playing with timing still, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb injectors, K/N, March Crank pulley, MSD6a, 9mm wires and FMS Aluminum driveshaft. Best ET 13.2@106mph Needs tuning...