Today's Market of Import Vs. Domestic
 

I guess you guys figure I've been complaining a lot lately, but I got another issue I need to discuss (vent, i guess). A good friend of mine just bought a new car-- and guess what, it's a Honda Accord. He was telling me how the resale value and economy, durability, etc was so much better than domestic cars. Nowadays, I see more and more people buying imports. Maybe it's just me. Now, I have a lot of Ford and domestic friends and it seems that my closest friends in some way prefer domestics, specifically muscle cars of some sort, but you know how you are "acquainted with" a LOT more people than just your close friends? and those are the majority of the people I know who buy imports.

I don't have much experience with the imports vs. domestics debate cause I haven't owned any other car than a Mustang myself :D and I love it. But if I don't have the experience with owning new domestics or new imports, I can't realy argue against what some are saying about the imports lasting longer and resale value being higher, etc.

Can we talk about this guys? What's going on here?

I would probably buy an import if i was just looking for a daily driver that I wouldnt do anything to and wated good gas mileage and comfort.

I can tell a little story about this subject. When I got back from kuwait this time last year alot of people went out and bought cars. Two guys i work with bought honda accords a 91 and 93 and i got a 91 gt. The one dude paid about 3k for the 91 with 150k on it the other guy paid over 6 for the 93 with 70,000 both cars very stock. Both guys talk about how much hondas are better they know how much I hate them. I paid just over 4 for my 91 with brand new paint, leather interior, gears, headers, h-pipe, flowmasters all the normal stuff on a street mustang with only 63,000 miles on it. Well the mustang now has a couple more mods, a few street race wins, and a couple of show car thropies. I have been offered as much as 9,000 for it. While the two hondas are still slow as hell and the 91 honda has broken down 3 times and the 93 honda has a new computer that brunt out. While the funny part is the guy with the 93 honda has set up a couple of races with other imports (who think their car is the fastest thing ever this town i live in is pretty lame for cars) for me and he put up the money. :D LOL so you tell me wich car you would rather have

As an appraiser I can tell you that more and more people are buying imports for the simple reason of resale values and the cars generally last longer under NORMAL conditions! I personally always had domestic vehicles, but let me tell you when I have to appraise import cars with 80,000 some miles on it and the door, engine, transmission,etc still runs like new, it kind of makes you think a little bit! Then I will apraise the same thing but domestic and the car seams like it was aboused from day one. And I see this every day!! Now not to say that its like this with every import and domestic car or truck I do, but the majority of it is like that. What dictates resale value or at least controls 50% of what your cars is worth is what your car brand new has for rebates. If you have a 2003 cobra and all of a sudden Ford comes out with a 3,500 dollar rebate, your 03 cobra thats in mint condition with 20 miles on it just dropped in price like a rock!!!!!! And lets face it, The Big Three (Fords, GM, Chrysler) are always pushing the big rebates plus the low intrest rates after you neg. your best price!
Sad but True
P.S
Born an American
Buy American

Im a American and I buy American. I owe that to my Country.


Having said that. There are some things I can't avoid buying that are imported. I wish I could change that but I can't. So I choose carfully.

God Bless America!

I think the domestics were hit really hard in the 80's. The Imports were built so much better. It was a good thing, because now the domestics are a lot better. It will take some time for the public to see that the these car are not going to rust apart, break down, paint fall off, and basically turn into crap after a few years. As usual, the free enterprise system works, just not always the way you would like it too.

By the way, I'm a diehard ford guy (right now I own 5) but the Wife drives a AWD turbo Subaru.

And even though we do OK, money wise, I cannot ever see us buying a new car, just way too much money.

I'm as big an American booster as you'll find, but the sad fact is that Detroit is STILL in the process of 'waking up'. They are still in the mindset that, "people will buy whatever crap we put out there," and the Japanese were smart enough to see that Detroit would have a hard time getting away from Tayloristic management. Detroit will have to basically "unmake" all of the wrongs it has done by proving itself through reliability AND performance, while doing it at a low cost to the consumer. The latter is what I fear they have a problem doing. It will be a sad day when Detroit is no longer the motor city it once was.

We were burdened with inventing an industry; they benefitted by taking our products and refining them. We would've done the same thing had it been the other way around.

You want to know the funny thing about Hondas? They're the most American-made vehicle in the country right now. Ford, GM and Chrysler have all said they are players in the "global economy," which in layman's terms means, "screw our people, our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers at home! We need a cheaper product so we can get profitability up! And I don't care if some 8-year-old in China making 50 cents a month makes parts for my cars, just do it!" THAT IS THE COLD, HARD FACT OF THE MATTER. GREED is yet another enemy of Detroit's auto industry, IMO. I'm not against ANYONE making money, nor large sums of it. But there is a certain point at which it's just going to hurt you and/or your business to continue hording such wealth. What could you possibly do with $40 billion??? Would it *really* make a difference if you made only, say, $39 billion?

I've been to these product launches, the meetings, the presentations on the "benefits" of global marketing. The bottom line? Every job in this country that has anything to do with manufacturing/engineering is going to Asia. Period. They work for peanuts over there, and the cost savings are just too enticing to pass up. Seriously, would you pay engineer X $40,000/year, or would you pay engineer Y $40/week to do the same job? The greed is just amazing, though. The suits just don't see any benefit to paying anyone here in the states anymore, when there's a huge market overseas that can do it cheaper.

Okay, I ranted enough. Just trying to get to the crux of the argument.

Imports vs Domestics
 

Price drives the market of course but the vaunted reliability of the Japanese brands also accounts for the big market share the imports take out of the American auto industry and as already mentioned, most of the Hondas and Toyotas sold here are made in America. The emergence of the 'ricer' phenomena among todays younger car owners will almost guarantee the same people will stay with an import later in life and this will also factor into the reality of Japanese/import cars taking an even bigger bite out of the domestic manufacturers bottom lines in the coming years.

While 'niche' cars like the V-8 Mustang will probably survive for some time, the imports have American manufacturers on the run in many segments of the automobile sales market and now the imports are gaining on Ford in the light-truck market, long a solid base of income for Ford as well as for Chevy. Not good.

Very high union wages and benefits have hurt Detroit as well as their too-well-known shoddy workmanship and lack of new ideas. Today, new car buyers expect their new car to last well over 100,000 miles with no serious mechanical problems. Most Japanese cars deliver that on that expectation but some domestics don't. People only remember the ones that don't, then go buy a 'bulletproof' Japanese car because their relative, friend or neighbor has one that went 150,000 with no real hassles...and they got $1,000. for it at trade-in time. The resale value is important to many car buyers, as well as the reliability of the car - and American cars are not meeting expectations on either front too much of the time, so this slowly but steadily erodes the American automobile manufacturers sales.

Look at what a Ford Taurus is worth after 3 years and compare it to a Honda Accord. Big difference. People have caught on to this and they buy imports, as much for the resale value as for the reliability and the price, which is generally competitive with domestic vehicles. I know a guy who just bought a 2004 Honda Civic LX (auto) with no extras for $15,800. plus tax and title. I saw the bill of sale so it wasn't BS on his part. Hard to beat that kind of deal on a car with great gas mileage, excellent reliability and very high resale value.

Mustang owners, like us, have specific wants in our cars; mainly lots of power and handling performance along with the Mustang cachet. We don't usually even consider an import. Unfortunately, we are becoming a minority and even those who 'buy American' out of loyality (which is great) are getting a car with lots of parts made elsewhere than America. I doubt American auto manufacturers will be going out of business anytime soon, but they will shrink in size, I'm certain. A lot of that is their own fault, as we all know. Look, when I want to buy a new (brand name) TV or other appliance, I check all the store's prices and if Wal-Mart is cheaper than the rest, I buy it at Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart was run by a Japanese company, I might think twice and buy at the local appliance store but if the local appliance store charged 20% more for the same item, I'm buying at Wal-Mart. I only have so much money to spend on an appliance - or a car. Unless the appliance - or the car - is something very specific that I can only get at one place (like a Mustang), I'm buying where the price is lowest, in most cases. Everyone does this.

One more thing: most car buyers don't care much about performance: they just want to get from point A to point B with no car hassles, good gas mileage and some degree of comfort. Japanese manufacturers understand this and make cars that fit the bill perfectly, and Americans buy them by the hundreds of thousands (400,000 Honda Accords sold last year). That will continue as long as American manufacturers continue to cut quality corners to keep their pricing competitive with the imports and fail to excite potential buyers with new, innovative models and designs. Impersonating the Japanese cars won't cut it for Detroit anymore...if it ever did.

I think Capri306 hit the nail on the head there. The only thing we have on China right now is service. It still takes a while to sail across the ocean and flying is expensive.
By the way I bought a 92 ranger with a 4.0 v-6 when I got out of H.S. I drag raced it, went mud riding, and just generally drove the piss out of it. It had about 260K on it when I ripped the speedometer cable off. I passed it off to my little bro who is still driving it. I dare say it has around 280k to 300k on it now and I will still line it up against one of those foreign trucks.

I just don't see how people can stand to have those things in there yards, German maybe but Asian cars stink.:eek:

Take Heart. Look at Harley. Can Ford and GM do as good a job. we will have to wait but I see new Harley dealers going up all over.

Hey and marketing plays a big role. Every 80s yuppie some how thought they had to have either a BMW (wimpy 318 was fine long as it was a Beamer and cost plenty) or a Honda, acura, etc. Now they think they have to have an SUV.

Just went on 9 hour interstate drive today. Believe me there are a lot of Tahoes and Expeditions out there. So far US rules the SUV and they ain't driving 70 either. Yeah there are ricer SUV's but they are really wimps compared to a big Surburban.

And don't forget the old F150. How many fleets of Toyota's have you seen. We have not seen many here in Texas. Yeah there are some Tundra's out there but if you want a real truck a Mazda B210 just doesn't get it.

There is something bogus about resale value anyway. It is a gemick to get your mind off how much you are really paying for that new car.

Oh yeah and resale value somehow implies cars are investments which they ain't 99.9999% of the time. This is marketing BS to help you over the initial cost.

This is a perfect example. I'm a damage appraiser, i spend a good part of my day thumbing through Kelly Blue Book. The vehicle that stands out most in my mind is the little Ford Ranger ??? They have to be the best buy going right now because the resale on them just goes through the freekin floor in 2 or 3 years. Why, I have absolutely no clue ? I talk to the body shops about them and ask if they're put together poorly or difficult to work on, and they say no, not at all .... i ask one of the mechanics if they had more than the usual amount of problems with them, and he said in fact, they have very few problems with them, and overall he considers them to be good reliable little trucks ????? I'm baffled.
I know lots of import owners that tell me they have a jillion miles on their import, but i know alot of domestic owners that say the same thing. I know my only personal experience with imports is a toyota celica i inherited when i married my wife .... it was a total piece of crap!! It broke down all the time and was obsurdly expensive to work on when it did.
The longer i'm around in this world, the more i'm finding out that about 80% of the so called truths you hear are just pure conjecture, pure Urban legend. They are things that are passed off as fact, when in reality there is no basis or proof to support that conclusion.
Are imports built that much better than domestics? I know there are tons of people that will say yes, but I just don't see the PROOF of it.
All you young people take heed of this ... In this world .... especially now days, just because a bunch of people (whether experts or not) say it's a fact ... that does not make it a fact. Reality is often quite different than majority opinion.

quote "????I'm Baffled"

That is what marketing is all about. That is why people buy pet rocks. "Baffling"

Don't get me wrong marketing can be [is] a winning strategy. ergo "resale value", blah blah and "German engineering = I want an beamer" and "Japan = quality" but it is still BS. A game of how can I make you want this? How can I get you to believe me? How can I make you think this is a reliable product?

Of course you have to be about equal but after that spin goes a long way. The last thing you want is more data.

I work in sales and marketing. One great TV ad among equals can change the landscape for many years.

20 years ago who would have thought you would pay as much for a bottle of water as a cheap beer. Now many have to have bottle water and only drink imported or microbrewed beer.

What happened to Pabst Blue Ribbon or Schlitz?

Ford and GM let the Asians gain equality in small/medium cars after that spin takes over

Thank god for US inventiveness in minivans and SUVs and never allowing equality in trucks or [realtively] cheap mussle cars.

Wonder what the new GTO is is all about? Hope it is not too retro.

$40,000 vs $40/hr Engineer
 

Oh yeah and why wouldn't I want a $40/hr engineer instead of a $40,000 engineer if I get the same product? We must be innovative to maintain the $ edge. A $40/hr engineer can produce great cheap copies. Same goes for Sales and Marketing people.

Whats that commercial.... ".. the old fashion way .. We earn it..."

Mine was a Toyota corolla went from it to a 1979 F100 you could buy any part on it for $30. I know the 99 sierra I bought last year was worth more (bank loan value) than a 2000 FI00 with 10K less miles about $2500 more. But they cost more new also.

I am trying to sell a 97 taurus now. so I know what you mean with the Taurus.

It's a dam fine car leather, power seats, sunroof, It's as loaded as they come no problems ever. I'm lucky to get $3500

I have 4 Toyotas. 3 trucks and a Supra. Not one of them left me stranded and they all run very well. The trucks have 154k,84k and a 195k. THe Supra has 206k. They start everytime hot or cold for the mileage they have on them. My Mustang has been very reliable. I have yet to have ANY major problem with it. It just turned 100k. It never left me stranded either, but I know the common problems with Fords and most likely it is bound to happen. Ford did improve in a big way and that is a plus. I believe the Japanese make a better overall car. For the most part, they are not "crap". I owned them and the biggest complaint is rust, other than that great vehicles. I really do believe Toyota makes the BEST compact truck. I worked on too many American crap cars to lean more towards domestic.

James:cool:

Re: Imports vs Domestics
 

There are a lot of good points brought up by everyone in this thread.

From the quote above pertty much fits what I've been going through lately. I'm hearing the words "resale value, dependability, reliability, 200,000 miles, KBB value", etc. A friend of mine who had an Oldsmobile SUV just traded it in for some import SUV. He and his wife says the domestic was always in the shop, but that the Olds was much more comfortable inside. My brother's Grand Am was always breaking. One thing after another, transmisssion, turn signal switch, light switch, interior pieces, belt tensioner, breaks, etc. (and I do mean etc). But hey, my dad's Ford Ranger XLT has been through a bunch and still runs strong.

As was mentioned b4, I know there is a lot of BS bandwagoneers floating around the import consumers, but at the same time, a good amount of negatives against domestics and for imports is supported by evidence and testimony.

And also, like already mentioned, look at the resale value of a Taurus compared to an Accord or a Cavalier compared to a 4-door Civic. I dunno, but this all seems to me greater than just some fad. I could be wrong, but it seems that domestic manufacturers are smug and set in their ways. What is their strategy? Do they see what is happening or are we the ones that are deceived? And as already mentioned, it does seem like some domestic manufacturers are really just trying to copy some of the imports in design instead of just coming up with their own ideas. However, I notice that most domestics have more of a higher quality interior pieces and luxuries (such as electric seats, digital guages, outside temperature, just stuff that makes the car -- or SUV--more comfortable or luxurious inside), but will be at the shop in the next 5 - 10 years quicker than the imports (from what I hear people complaining about).

I tell you the truth, I'm just sick and tired of hearing that imports such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan are getting better reviews and are more reliable and have higher resale values than domestics-- but I guess that's the freedom of capitalism???

....and I cringe everytime I hear another friend tell me "hey, I bought a new Honda Accord... " :rolleyes:

__________________________________________________ _
Quote
...Look, when I want to buy a new (brand name) TV or other appliance, I check all the store's prices and if Wal-Mart is cheaper than the rest, I buy it at Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart was run by a Japanese company, I might think twice and buy at the local appliance store but if the local appliance store charged 20% more for the same item, I'm buying at Wal-Mart. I only have so much money to spend on an appliance - or a car. Unless the appliance - or the car - is something very specific that I can only get at one place (like a Mustang), I'm buying where the price is lowest, in most cases. Everyone does this.
__________________________________________________ _

Wal Mart is a Chinese store not Japanese. Check it out Wal-Mart represents over 10% of China's Gross National Product. Cheap is costing us a lot of jobs.

Resale value is a market driven phenomena. Market charges what it can get for a product. Reputation is a part of it but not all.
Believing that a 1995 Honda SHOULD cost more than a 1995 Tarus is also part of it. Marketing plays a big role.

I think any car brand has the ability to go 200k miles, if its maintained like it should be. I realize that parts for some American cars are built in other countries, sometimes the majority of the car and some import brands are built here but I still buy American brands whenever possible. When someone starts the import vs domestic debate with me I just think of all the out of work americans. The same folks buying these imports are the same ones who are going to cry the loudest when they no longer have a job. You can't help but buy some foreign products but I don't understand why you would buy import when we have the same domestic product right here, not only cars but clothes and such. My levi's are not longer made in American!! I can't believe it!! I think there should be higher taxes on the imports, maybe then people would look at the domestic products twice.. and if a car maker where to advertise they were 98% made in the US I think folks would be willing to pay a little more(out of pride). What it comes down to with me is the fact that I want Americans owning American.

but....
 

Imports Vs. Domestic's Basically this is a timeless battle! Personally me for many years i hated domestic's (due to the fact of ignorance) which i have since corrected! For my daily driver as you see its a 2003 nissan frontier. At the time i needed a truck and i could either have a ford ranger (major pile of crap) or a Nissan Frontier Crew Cab(very solid vehicle!). The rangers just simpily didnt appeal to me but anyway back to the subject at hand. Imports Vs. Domestic's In their own ways i feel both are amazing! For instance lets take a stock Mazda RX7 of the same year and a Mustang SVT Cobra lets say 94.


The Mustang:
Displacement-----4949 cc / 302 cu in
Power--------------179.0 kw / 240 bhp @ 4800 rpm
Torque-------------386.41 nm / 285 ft lbs @ 4000 rpm
HP / Liter----------48.49bhp per litre

RX7:
Displacement----1308 cc / 79.8 cu in
Power-------------190.2 kw / 255.1 bhp @ 6500 rpm
Torque-------------294.0 nm / 216.8 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm
HP / Liter----------195.03 bhp per litre

I mean look at those specs...... where i have respect for a car is bhp per a litre and by car imports usually rule in that! a 79.8ci engine making more horse power but less torque than the american car. I'm not really knocking the american car but i find this amazing! I also feel that american companies should build the cars a bit more stout like they have in recent years with the new SVT cobra. But you will notice. I dont own an Rx7 i own a mustang because a little 1.3 liter engine doesnt send chills thru you like a big V8 beating the ground to death Also An import isnt nearly as cheap to build... In no way do i regret my purchase on my mustang or my truck i like both for different reasons and one last thing... Dont we domestic lovers and Import lovers all have one thing in common? Lets see if someone can actually answer that....;) ;)

I disagree I think the ranger is one of he best trucks on the market IF you stay away from the 4 banger. That goes back to the do you need a truck or just like the Idea of having one. As far as pickups go nothing beats a full size. I just can't see spending good money on a jap car.
:D

Mine was CRAP, and it wasn't from poor maintenance, and as far you working on "to many American crap cars" You can drive into any Toyota or Nissan dealer and look at their cars lined up like cord wood waiting to be repaired.

I'd be interested to know exactally why you consider it a major pile of crap ?? Have you had personal experience with them?

yes....
 

i drive my friends almost weekly.. its a 2002 V-6 model and it feels like its about to fall the hell apart just driving down the road...

no i dont need a full size for what i need it for.. i ride dirt bikes and it hauls my bike.. as far as needing a truck for anything else that about does it... Infact if i was going to buy a full size truck it would either be the new Nissan Titan or a Ford F-250 Crew Cab...
I'm not looking to piss anyone off here but this is a timeless battle and just food for a flame war....Like i said i like both for many reasons and dont dislike import or domestic saying you should only buy domestic is lame cuz many people work here in the USA in factories that produced so called "import vehicle's"
Many of toyota's line are produced here right in the usa. this being why there is gonna be a 2004 or 2005 toyota tacoma in Nascars truck series... somthing like that anyway...

Re: but....
 

You can't compare those 2 cars, they are COMPLETELY different engine designs. Ones is Rotary and ones a standard V8.

I'm not neccesarily going to disagree with you about HP per litre. What what really is HP? Want to increase it? Just turn it faster. Since the rotating components are lighter thats easy to do.

Another car that everyone seems to love is the Honda S2000. Why? Who the hell wants to drive at 8000 RPM just to get enough power to move the dam car?

I think there is alot more to the arguement than Which is better, Import or Domestic.

I'll give you 2 reasons why:

#1 My sister-in-law loves imports, namely Acura's. Swears they are the most reliable car on the road. She takes it in every 3000 miles and gets the best oil, best service, best everything. She pays for it, but, reliability is important to her. She rarely ever has problems, in fact I can't even think of 1.

#2. My neighbor has a 99 taurus. He MIGHT get the oil changed every 20,000 miles. In fact in the year and a half I've know him, he's only had the car serviced twice! He puts on tons of miles per week! The car has well over 100,000 miles on it, and hardly had anything done to it (in terms of maintenance). Of course the car is falling apart (surprise, surprise).

He says his Taurus is a piece of crap....is it?

I personally think this is the case more often than not.

Wal-Mart, resale values and the power of marketing
 

Quote:

Wal Mart is a Chinese store not Japanese. Check it out Wal-Mart represents over 10% of China's Gross National Product. Cheap is costing us a lot of jobs.

Thanks for that information but I was simply posing a hypothetical situation. Millions of items large and small sitting on American store's shelves are now made in China so that's nothing new or exclusive to Wal-Mart. The reason Wal-Mart succeeds (with it's China-made goods) rests largly on the fact that it's human nature to look for the best price on almost any item. 'Buying American' is a fine sentiment but when it simply means that you pay a lot more for things you buy - thus, reducing your standard of living - to enable a company to offer a better pay and benefit package for it's employees, most sensible people balk - and go to Wal-Mart.

Jobs and the industries that provide them are cyclical. As one section of business - manufacturing - subsides, another takes over. To expect nothing to ever change would be naive. Two economists; Michael Cox and Richard Alms, explained this in the November 7th, 2003 edition of the New York Times. This is a portion of that article, edited for brevity:

While it may seem that little progress is being made on the jobs front, beneath the surface the economy is doing what it's done for decades: orchestrating a relentless and enormous recycling of jobs and workers.

Large-scale upheaval in jobs is part of the economy; the impetus for it comes from technology, changing trading patterns and shifting consumer demand. History tells us that the result will be even more jobs, greater productivity and higher incomes for American workers in general.

New Bureau of Labor Statistics data covering the past decade show that job losses seem as common as sport utility vehicles on the highways. Annual job loss ranged from a low of 27 million in 1993 to a high of 35.4 million in 2001. Even in 2000, when the unemployment rate hit its lowest point of the 1990's expansion, 33 million jobs were eliminated.

The flip side is that, according to the labor bureau's figures, annual job gains ranged from 29.6 million in 1993 to 35.6 million in 1999. Day in and day out, workers quit their jobs or get fired, then move on to new positions. Companies start up, fail, downsize, upsize and fill the vacancies of those who left. It is workers' migration to new and existing jobs that keeps the country from sinking into some Depression-like swamp.

Yes, this disruption can be very hard on some workers who lose their employment and have trouble adapting. But in the larger sense, the turmoil in the labor market is vital to economic progress. A good part of the turnover takes place in a handful of industries, like restaurants and retailing, but to greater or lesser extent the churning grinds on across the board, in bad times and good. Tallies of net jobs lost or gained capture only a fraction of the flux in the job market. As this plays out, most workers end up better off.

Societies grow richer when new products emerge that better meet consumers' needs, and when producers adopt new technologies that reduce costs by making workers more productive. In a dynamic, innovative economy, these forces unleash waves upon waves of change. Some industries and companies prosper while others wither. Some companies find themselves with too many workers while others struggle with too few. A free-enterprise system responds by moving resources — in this case workers — to where they're more valuable.

For example, e-mail, word processors, answering machines and other modern office technologies are cutting jobs for secretaries but increasing the ranks of programmers. The Internet opened jobs for hundreds of thousands of Webmasters, an occupation that didn't exist as recently as 1990. Digital cameras translate to fewer photo clerks.

A century ago, 40 of every 100 Americans worked on farms to feed a nation of 90 million. Today, after one of history's most brutal downsizings, it takes just two agricultural workers out of 100 workers to supply an abundance of food to a nation more than three times as large. Suppose we'd kept 40 percent of our labor on the farm. Absurd, yes, but if we had, we wouldn't have had enough workers to produce the new homes, computers, movies, medicines and the myriad other goods and services of our modern economy.

Likewise, the telecommunications industry employed 421,000 switchboard operators in 1970, when Americans made 9.8 billion long-distance calls. Thanks to advances in switching technology, telecommunications companies have reduced the number of operators to 78,000, but consumers ring up 98 billion calls. Let's face it: Americans are better off with more efficient long-distance service. To handle today's volume of calls with 1970's technology, telephone companies would need 4.2 million operators, or 3 percent of the labor force. Without the productivity gains, a long-distance call would probably cost 40 times what it now does.

Microeconomic failure is not macroeconomic failure. Quite the opposite, "failure" is the way the macro economy transfers resources to where they belong. It is the paradox of progress: a society can't reap the rewards of economic progress without accepting the constant change in work that comes with it. Efforts to soften the blows, by devising policies or laws to preserve jobs or protect industries, will lead to stagnation and decline, the biggest threat to American workers.

Job losses for farm hands and telephone operators came so long ago that they don't sting anymore. Today we see the benefits clearly and forget the costs. That's harder to do in the short term — it rightly distresses us to see newspaper photographs of laid-off industrial workers. But these are the economic forces that raise living standards.

Since 1980, Americans have filed 106 million initial claims for unemployment benefits, each representing a lost job. Facing unemployment and rebuilding a life can be hard on families, but the United States today is better off for allowing it to happen. Even with the net decline in jobs over the past three years, during the past decade total United States employment has risen to 130 million from 91 million since 1980, a net gain of nearly 40 million jobs. Productivity, measured by output per worker, increased a staggering 56.2 percent.

Some people tend to forget this. The almost daily drumbeat of reports and "expert commentary" about a so-called jobless recovery prompts the question, "What's gone wrong with the labor market?"

The surprising answer: nothing.

Job growth will come, as it always has in the past. The economy, meanwhile, is as busy as ever in shifting labor from one use to another to make the country richer and more productive.

Quote:

Resale value is a market driven phenomena. Market charges what it can get for a product. Reputation is a part of it but not all. Believing that a 1995 Honda SHOULD cost more than a 1995 Tarus is also part of it. Marketing plays a big role.

That's correct but even with the best marketing, if customer's experience over time shows a specific car or model is failure-prone or if it's simply a bore to drive and gets so-so gas mileage, it won't retain it's value no matter how clever the marketing. Resale value is consumer-driven and not simply a result of clever marketing. If a Ford Taurus is bland and boring and has a reputation of developing expensive problems (such as leaky head gaskets on the 3.8 engines), it simply won't hold it's value. If the Honda Accord has fewer problems and gets better gas mileage and is more fun to drive, it will demand a better price upon resale. With cars lasting much longer than they used to, it's not always easy to find an older, high-mileage car that won't be a frustrating money-pit and like it or not, Japanese cars have developed a reputation for durability, thus, they retain their value better. That's not marketing, that's simply consumer demand based on experience. Would you prefer to buy a 1995 Chevy Cavalier with 120,000 miles on it or a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry with the same mileage? Most used car buyers will go for the Japanese car - and knowingly pay more for it. If they DO buy the older Chevy or Ford, it will usually have to be a 'steal'.

I do agree that any car that is maintained carefully and not really abused will last a long time - but the engineering has to be there for that to happen. My 1990 Mustang 5.0 has 124,000 miles on it with very few repairs...it's almost all original...but I've maintained it carefully since I bought it, new. If the engineering was shoddy, it simply would have worn out or otherwise given me problems by now. As I often tell friends: all the oil changes in the world won't change the sloppy tolerances in a poorly-built engine. So while I can agree that marketing is a factor in resale value, to give it too much credit would be a mistake. Once a car or specific model has been around awhile (5 years or so) it develops a reputation. If car has too many problems and it's not exciting or special in any substantial way, it won't hold it's value over time. Of course, I don't believe in buying a new car based solely on it's probable resale value but many people do, and so, the Japanese imports retain their value while many (but not all) domestic models sink. Fact of life and while not always rational, still a fact to be dealt with.

If you were going to by a flag. Would you buy a Japanese flag just because it was cheaper. To me that is what you are doing. Flying that big ole foreign flag in your front yard. I really hate to see is a foreign car with an American flag pasted to the back glass. If your that patriotic buy an American car.

The profits from those foreign cars still goes overseas those people making Nissans would be making Ford, Chevy, or dodges if people would buy American.

Isn't it worth spending a little more to know that some starving 9 year old working 88 hours a week didn't make it. To make sure it didn't help to build that big old nuke that could one day drop into your yard. Is it worth spending more so your neighbor won't be out of a job due to cheap foreign labor. Is it worth you piece of mind.

I think it is a matter of pride. So next time you are driving the foreign car Think what you are really doing is flying a big ole Japanese flag.

Not completely True..... alot of companies that people consider foreign are now owned by US companies such as Ford. They own or their partners with.....
Mazda,Volvo,Jaguar,LandRover, And Aston Martin

Then lets look at chevy
Saturn and Saab

Then lets look at Daimler Chrysler
Mitsubishi, Mercedes,Hyundai

So need i go on? seriously lets just bridge the gap between domestic and import Jeeez! And Honestly where do you think the eletronics in american cars are made? I mean now its to the point you may as well buy on preference. If your preference is american so be it. If its an import thats cool to. BUT DO NOT SAY IM UN AMERICAN FOR BUYING AN IMPORT... Is the guy that just went to Iraq and came back and bought a nissan un american! I think not!

Really? Most of the Toyota's or Nissan's that are at the dealership are usually in for routine maintenence or an NVH (noise, vibration harshness) problem that is usually stupid things like leaky doors seals or other simple stuff. Not saying they dont break, its just considerbly less than domestics.

If I wanted to be a true flag waver and buy "Fords and Chevy's" my whole life and spend more on repairs than that of Japanese, then yeah I will do it, but I am not a flag waver since American cars arent American. I am not saying domestics suck, that isnt true, but the Japanese make more models reliable than we do.

Ford Ranger? HA! The only ones I would think about considering is the newer SLA suspenion designs. If you worked on ANY Ford truck from 80 to 95, you would know what is the most common problems with them and that is in the front suspension. Ford built that layout (twin I beam) for nearly 15 years and it is crap.

If you want to buy a Ford, then fine, its your money. I know what is reliable from what comes through the shops door and the TSB's that I read almost everyday.

Got to admit, Ford has made MAJOR improvements over the years. They increased their reliabilty big time. I think the best American cars would be Ford.

James:cool:

well said...... this is still an endless battle though... was an instant flame war from the time i saw the topic

I guess that we can agree to disagree. BaLListic didn't mean to slight you for buying the Nissan. Through "my personal" experience domestic cars (particularly fords) are more reliable. I owned two Toyota's and hated both of them (transmission problems on both). I think every one I know with a Toyota pickup either has valve train problems or rod bearings "knocking." May be I just go lucky and got all the good domestics. I've had a 79 f 100, 92 ranger, 96 GT, 97 Taurus , 90 GT (present). All of the vehicles have been great. I had some intake trouble on the 96 but it was under recall.

I guess also it goes back to what you are looking for in a car. If it isn't a full-size pickup or a sports car I not really that interested. I just don't see the appeal of a camery, civic, or a KIA speck.

But I guess that's why ice cream comes in chocolate and vanilla.:p

the only decent reason i see owning a civic is fuel economy. I mean if you have a daily commute of 50 miles there is no use in making a new hole in the ozone layer by driving a full size truck... in my case i just needed a medium truck for my purpose and it has a bit better fuel economy. But im really looking to trade it in on a 2003 SVT cobra is some dealer will come off one at a decent price. Found one at 28k with 2,000 miles on it....

Just to let you know BigCountry, that Toyota pickup has no lifters and uses a cam follower to valve using lash. That is the noise most likely you are hearing. If the noise you hear sounds like an engine rattle and it happens mostly cold, this is due to piston be contracted when cold. When it warms up, the piston expands and the noise goes away. That is IF that is what you are hearing. All the cars you listed except the F100 and the Ranger are Fords best vehicles.

Like someone said, it can be vanilla or chocolate:D

James:cool:

If you say so.

A co worker of mine has a 95 SR5 4x4 with about 127k. Something in the top part of the motor went askew. I don't know what. But He paid the Yota dealer about $2500 to solve the problem. That being about 4 months ago now when the truck is started it makes a "clunking" noise. It does not go away after the truck is run. But it isn't as noticeable at driving speed. The yota dealer said it was rod bearings and would be another $2000 at least. That is what I have been told

I have a friend who has made a good living for many years. He owns and operates a foreign car repair shop. He always has a house full of toyotas and nissans. Front lot and side lot are always full too. He doesn't do door seals and minor rattles. He is not the only foreign car shop in our small town either.

I have kind of lost the point of this thread. Where did we start?

Most cars have come a long way in the last 40 years. How about the first Datsuns (for those too young that is a Nissan now). Compare a Pinto to a Focus. We are getting better product now, foreign or domestic, than we ever have and that's the good news.

hmmm i dunno about compairing pinto's to focus ehh i would rather have the pinto:P or sell the focus and buy 10 pinto's focus' are junk to say the least!:eek:

Get out here Pintos were junk. May be we could start a new thread on this one. What about the new Focus SVT. I don't think Pinto had anything like that. Maybe a poll..... What would you rather have a Pinto or Focus SVT. Did anybody ever mod up a Pinto? Probably did

Foreign vs Domestic, redux
 

All cars - foreign and domestic have improved drastically from the era of the 1970's Pintos - and Datsuns. Technology has helped tremendously in making automobiles safer and far more reliable and longer-lasting than those of even 20 years ago. From efficient, almost pollution-free engines to the lack of body rot after a few years to the quality, fit and finish as well as the vastly improved ergonomics, a 2004 automobile is an excellent machine in all respects, whether it's a Mustang 4.6 or a Honda Civic.

Having stipulated that; the unavoidable fact remains that a lot of those improvements came into being due to governmental mandates for safety and fuel economy (which gave us air bags, crumple-zones and fuel injection, among other welcome improvements) and in the area of ergonomics and the efficient use of space, as well as build quality, the imports, especially Japanese imports, generally led the way as domestic manufacturers followed. In other words: all cars slowly improved in all areas - but the Japanese cars did so sooner. American automobile manufacturers have often had to cut corners to compete with the foreign car manufacturers on price and that can make for a less-reliable car or one that 'ages' rapidly. Union wages that exceed worker productivity is partly to blame, as well as a bloated corporate bureaucracy and a lack of vision. You name ithe mistake and domestic manufactures have probably made it.

Foreign manufacturers are not all geniuses or invincible and course their cars are never flawless, but they are usually a good value and do hold up well. Not every American manufacturer can say that about their cars. The real comparison isn't between a Ford Focus and a Pinto (out of production since 1980) but a Ford Focus and a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. Frankly, the SVT Focus (a neat little car) is a 'niche' vehicle and is not the model that pays Ford's bills and returns dividends...the standard, bread-and-butter Focus does that. Is it superior to the Honda Civic? Buyers decide. In January 2003, the Honda Civic sold 20,734 units in the U.S. The Ford Focus: 16,937. That particular market is doing well and Ford is holding it's own.

On the down side, according to Car and Driver, GM's market share in America has slid from 50% in the early 1960's to 28%, today. Ford and Chrysler have each lost 20% of their shares in just the past five years. And, the 'Big Three' have to give big incentives and zero percent financing to sell what they do. Not encouraging. There are a multitude of reasons for this erosion and it isn't all based on quality or even price but when the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry (as well as the Honda Acura) are consistently given the very highest possible ratings from every car magazine (for value and quality) and Ford competes with the boring Taurus and Chevy with the warmed-over Malibu and Impala, the growth and acceptance of foreign automobile manufactures marques is fairly easy to understand. Cars are expensive, from around 20 to 30 thousand for a decent vehicle of any type, even more for a loaded SUV or a Mustang Cobra. Buyers demand some style, lots of comfort, respectable performance and gas mileage and of course, durability. Lets not forget 'a good resale value', too.

As I stated in a previous post: foreign cars generally deliver but not all domestic cars do (think of the Chevy Cavalier or even the Taurus). That has a lot to do with the slow but steady growth of foreign car manufacturers share of the U.S. market and it isn't all based on mere perceptions but on reality and buyer's mostly happy experience with Japanese cars. Not all, of course, but a majority - and that's enough.

Re: Foreign vs Domestic, redux
 

Yes, doesn't that explain it all?

I dunno, but from my somewhat ignorant perspective, it just seems like the domestic manufacturers aren't trying as hard as they should be-- like they really don't even care. I said it once and I'll say it again: I'm simply tired of hearing how great Hondas are and their resale values and seeing people get rid of domestics and buying more imports. I don't necessarily blame them if what they are saying about reliability is true, but if it is, the domestic manufacturers need to step it up a bit. When will the descent end? When will I hear "Hey, I bought a new Chevy Impala b/c it has one of the highest resale values and was rated in the top 5 cars in Car and Driver or Motortrend?

Import V. Domestics
 

I used to drive am import... trust me not by choice because I really hated the car... It was weak and cheaply made and it really bugged me just driving it. The only thing I truly loved about the car was the speed and handling capabilities... and I really think the only reason I loved that was because it had a lotus handling package on it. But once I got my Mustang I vow to never drive another car I love it sooo much.
Everone I know besides 2 friends of mine drive imports. They bug me with the "Toyota has the best trade in value" and "they are cheaper to buy most of the time" infact my boyfriend drives a 2003 Toyota Matrix.... and his brother a 2002 Mitsubishi lancer. which they both are a hunk of crap that I would never be caught dead owning... I get ragged on all the time because I am one of about 2 or 3 of my friends who actully drive a domestically made car. But recently I read an artical that ford is sending all manafacturing to foriegn countries because it can be made cheaper over seas... which needless to say is pretty low. I hate that all those jobs are now gone because someone wanted to pay someone 1.00 per hour rather than 35.00 to 40.00 an hour to save some pennies. It really makes me despise ford for doing so but there isnt much I can do about that. I may despise their choice in labor but I cant turn down a ford car because they do make one heck of a car.

Sorry about that I kinda got off subject.... But I do think it is a good topic... what do you guys think about Ford sending all remaining manafacturing plants over seas??

Cars break no matter what the brand, imports for the most part are more expensive to repair on average because alot of parts are imported or marked up. I've seen just as many imports as domestics on the side of the road and alot of it has to do with maintainance (lack of).
I work at a ford dealership and see explorers with 200,000+ miles with little to no problems, and i also see explorers with 20,000 miles with all the common problems associated with the vehicle. The quality of all cars has gone up tremendously in the last 10 years and the all new Explorers, Expeditions, Lincoln LS, Thunderbird for example have all new technology and design than older vehicles. Specifications for the engine, suspension, NVH (noise vibration harshness) for example is way more stringent than it used to be.
I think with cars today it's mostly a matter of preferance. Every manufacturer today sublets alot of work and product design to other companies. For example: saying model X Ford is better than model X Chevy is a toss up because 1/2 the parts on a certain vehicle may be made by another car company or mass production company bought at the lowest price and isn't actually made by the car company itself.
I'm rambling, but my point is import or domestic - both make good cars and both make bad cars, both also have common problems because there will always be a car that is a lemon, or a sublet part that isn't durable (ford DPFE sensors for example).
Personally i like torque and i like it cheap, thank god for mustangs :D

Okay, so what you and a few others hear are saying is what I agree with. And there are very good examples given about a ratio of how one cares for a vehicle to how long it lasts. There is a lot of hype. There are a lot of bandwagoneers. Some stories are false, but some are true, and still some have some truth but are embellished. I agree, there are good and bad points about both domestics and imports. It seems though that domestic manufacturers should try to market their vehicles as much as the import manufacturers do and go above and beyond so that they stand out in quality and performance. Resale value seems more of a hype thing than anything else.

And, what do you guys think about this: Look at the price for a 2003 Subaru Impreza WRX STi, it's performance #s, all wheel drive, and finally the price tag. Now do the same for a 2003 Cobra....

another issue...
 

another issue i see with domestics honestly so far its been much harder getting approved for a domestic car than it was for my nissan... It was a very simple operation and they actually gave me an answer within the first 20 mins... i had to wait 2 days! to hear from my ford dealer.... i mean wtf... im driving and import and ill drive an import till i can sell this import lol... after that im going mach 1 or svt cobra....

The WRX is hot!!! And a great bargin. Lets see if they hang in at these prices with this performance. Wonder how many units they sell of the WRX. Wonder if it is a lost leader meant to improve the Suburu name and image. In any event it is a good example of a cheap hot car.

Great Points. People have it stuck in their head that all Hondas go 200k with no problems and you are lucky to get 100k out of domestics. Not true at all. Some import models do last longer than domestics and the reverse is certainly true as well. It depends more on the specific vehicle than it does the manufacturer.

Then look at recalls. Which ones seem to get attention? Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Well guess what folks, imports have recalls too. You just don't hear about it as much. If you ever have the opportunity to read Wards Auto Report, it is a great publication that lists what's going on in the auto industry business wise, engineering wise, production numbers, global auto news, and recalls. I see just as many recalls for imports as I do U.S. vehicles. Honda had one the other day I believe on the Accord where a couple of bolts can break and you lose power steering. About 300k vehicles in Japan were affected and 140k in the U.S. Did any of you hear about that? Now, if 140k Ford Focus' had that problem, I bet you would have heard something on the news or in the paper.

Then there is foreign brands that are made in the U.S. Is that better for U.S. workers than foreign brands made overseas? Yup. Is it better than Domestic brands made here? Nope, not even close. Yes, the Big 2 1/2 are becoming more 'global' and using more parts made elsewhere, but domestics still have more parts that are made here. Look at the window stickers of new cars and they will tell you the % of parts that are made in the U.S. & Canada.

Domestic auto manufacturers also still use more American suppliers for parts as well. I work for a Tier 1 supplier to the auto industry. 69% of our sales are in the U.S. 23% go to Europe and a whopping 3% go to Asia.

When that is broken down by manufacturer, it looks like this:

Ford...............................24.7%
GM.................................13.6%
New Venture Gear.........11.1%
DaimmlerChrysler...........10.2%
Delphi............................10.0%
Dana..............................8.4%
Toyota/AISIN..................8.2%
Visteon...........................7.7%
TRW................................3.8%
American Axle..................2.3%

Those are out Top Ten customers in regards to Automotive Sales. We supply all of them with parts and 90% of our parts are made in the USA. The rest are either made in Europe or in Mexico. Headquarters is in the U.S., my office is in the US, and 5 out of our 6 plants are in the U.S.

Do you see Honda on that list? How about Nissan? Where's Kia at? And Toyota accounts for a whopping 8.2% of our business. (Sales below the top ten don't account for much, so this is basically all of our Automotive OEM business.)

Now that is just one example, but there are more. As of right now, if you are an American it still pays to buy American, and until Honda and Toyota move their headquarters over to the USA, I don't see that changing.

Ban all cars made in Aisa:D :D :D

lets not even mention...
 

im about to buy a new Mitsubishi lancer Evolution simpliy because i cant get approved for a mustang... not to mention the lancer is pretty damn fast! out handles! and has a lower sticker!..... Kinda narrows it down a bit....

Did a little research. Go to this web site it is JD Powers. I respect their ability to gather market information. You can stack up their Mkt research for various cars. I compared the 2000 Mustang, Acura Integra, Honda Prelude and Suburu Impreza. I was surprised at the results. Go do it and see what you think. If the link below does not work just go to jdpower.com, select auto and work your way down to the ratings.

Did the same comparisons for 2003 and was surprised again.

Then do it for say 1994-95. See what you think. See if you see the same trends I do.


http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_...ndJdAwards.jsp