What Political Party are you?

[Mr 5 0]

crazy horse:

Please stop apologizing, guy.

I'm actually flattered that you feel comfortable enough with those on this forum to post your real thoughts and convictions as well as your complaints. It's cool.

Let me respond your comment regarding pro-lifers who kill pro-choicers at abortion clinics. Obviously, that's totally indefensible regardless of motivation and those who commit such premeditated murders should be punished with life or possibly the death penalty - I don't care which.

That having been said - over one million babies are aborted - killed in the womb - every year in this country and if you accept the premise that the 'fetus' is a live person in the womb, then the knowledge that over a million of these helpless little human beings-in-the-making, with heartbeats and brainwaves and movement at only a few weeks old - then what is done at abortion clinics is outright legalized murder, often for profit and this, for obvious reasons, drives some people over the edge.

Abortion is a deeply divisive subject fraught with all kinds of moral and social implications and I would rather not try to debate it here as most people already have a position (pro or con) and won't change it no matter what argument is raised.
I simply wished to mention that your example of pro-life people killing pro-choice people was apt in a sense; if abortion is murder - how can you justify murdering an adult ? Illogical, as Mister Spock might say.

Of course, pro-abortion people often vigorously oppose the death penalty which is also a bit odd. A baby in the womb - as innocent as a human being will ever be - is O.K. to murder ('abort') but it's cruel and barbaric to execute some 35-year-old mass murderer who probably raped or tortured his victims? Makes no sense, I agree.
I also agree that PC and the liberal leftists have taken over a large part of our American culture, to our great loss. College classrooms have often become indoctrination centers for leftist political revisionism, turning out young minds full of mush for the most part, devoid of any real historical perspective and believing that America is somehow racist, evil and the cause of most of the worlds problems. Tragic.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts Marty and keep 'em coming. You're among friends here.


SilverPoet:

Thanks for your input on the thread...also appreciated.

A comment regarding the Electoral College system, established by the founding fathers and altered somewhat by the 12th Amendment.
I see it this way; if we had the direct popular vote you wish for our elections they would resemble the way they are in Europe; specifically Italy, France and Germany - just to name the worst examples.

What happens is this: You have dozens of different special interests competing for the vote - enviromentalists, anti-abortion and pro-abortion groups, racial minorities, women's groups, big business, farmers, etc. It's an endless list. These groups then form individual political parties and run candidates for President, much as the fringe parties do now (with no success). The difference is - that in order for a responsible candidate to have a chance to win in this system, he has to accomodate a majority of these groups to win a plurality of the votes cast, as is done in Europe. He/she is forced to form a coalition government with all the minor parties having a seat in his administration and competing for attention. It doesn't work well at all. In fact, it stinks.

The founding fathers knew what they were doing when they modified the original Electoral College concept following the election of 1800.

If we really wanted direct representation, why not abolish the House and Senate? Why should Alaska have two Senators, same as California, with a fraction of the population? Why? Balance and stability.

The Electoral College assures a stable federal government, not a mish-mash of competing parties all attempting to change whatever they don't like and causing endless elections due to the fact that no candidate can ever draw together enough votes to sustain a majority and coalition governments can't govern when there are 50 different competing voices attempting to get their 'issue' attended to - all at the same time.

Our system of government and elections (a representative democracy) has worked very well for over two-hundred years and the fact that we have one of the most stable governments on the planet for this long - with a diverse population and free elections - is a positive testament to the effectivness of the EC.

I look at the 2000 Presidential election as an anomaly in our long history of elections and one that only came about due to the very small percentage of votes split between the candidates.
It probably won't happen again for a very long time - if ever.
I believe Bush actually won and I wish the entire state of Florida could have been recounted to 'prove' it but I fear that no amount of recounts would have satisifed everyone.
The only 'magic' the Republicans 'worked' was that the matter of recounts went to the Supreme Court - with more liberals than conservatives on it - and they ruled that if the recounts were not complete (Gore's people wanted to count some counties and not others) then the vote counting was over and what was already counted and recounted - in selected counties - stood as the final vote. In that counting, Bush won by a tiny margin.
Later, a syndicate of liberal newspapers (including USA TODAY) got together and basically paid to have all the votes recounted...and Bush still won. This was without even counting the military ballots thrown out, probably illegally. Of course, this was buried on page 106 of most papers, because they had hoped the paid-for recount would show Gore won and they could trumpet that Bush was an 'illegimate' President. He isn't. He won fairly. Close, but a fair win.

I'm more than glad to have George W. Bush as our President, as is most of the nation (his approval rating is in the mid 80's - unbelieveably high). He's a whole lot smarter than the liberal media and his political enemies want you to believe he is and he proves it every week, although liberals will never admit it.

President Bush's actions since September 11th have demonstrated extraordinary leadership. You may not like all of his political positions or even be a Republican but anyone who judges fairly can see that the man is honest, caring and sincere with a top-notch team behind him and is doing the best he can - on many fronts - for America, not just the Republican party.

Reports of his ignorance were, indeed, greatly exaggerated.

[silver_pilate]

Some very enlightening and refreshing discussions occuring in this thread. I've enjoyed reading it.

As for me...I am also a conservative Republican. I've got beliefs on which I build the foundation of my life and I will stand strong to uphold those beliefs. That would be what classifies me as conservative (as opposed to liberals with the "sure...that sounds like it'll be neat...what the heck" philosopy ).

I've had the great privalege to meet George W. Bush on two occassions when he was governor of Texas, and I was very impressed by his down-to-earth attitude...refreshing in politicians. I followed his career in my own state and was truly impressed by the job he did. He worked closely with both Republicans and Democrats to conduct the business of the state for the good of the state.

I've known Pete Laney (TX Speaker of the House) all my life, and I know personally that Pete, who is a Democrat, and Bush had a very successful political relationship which allowed a great deal of work to be done in a bi-partisan manner. In fact, they grew to be very close friends, and Pete still visits Bush in D.C. on occassion.

All that being said, I will likely NOT vote for Governor Rick Perry in the next election, Republican or not. From information I've received, and things I have observed, we could do a lot better for Governor in Texas. I was also disturbed by the OBVIOUS gerrymandering which Texas Republicans engaged in in the recent re-districting. I've got some real soul-serching and researching to do before the next day at the polls.


--nathan

[MidNiteBlu 5.0]

Geez Mr. 5.0, you sure know a lot about government.
Everytime I try to respond and say something that I've leanred in my government class I can't put the words to it but when I read your posts I know about everything you're talking about. Excellent job.

Woohoo! I started a long thread - that got rated!

Later,

Nick

[SilverPoet]

Mr. 50: Hey, I never said I had ALL the answers. I do agree that just going to a direct vote is not the answer, but, I do want my say. I'm American that way. *winks*

The whole Senate and House thing is pretty simple. Give each state an equal say because they're a state, give each state an equal say based on population. For me, that doesn't factor into the Presidential position or vote or reason he gets elected. JMO.

btw: nice to meet cha.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by SilverPoet

Mr. 50: Hey, I never said I had ALL the answers.

Neither did I, just observations.

The whole Senate and House thing is pretty simple. Give each state an equal say because they're a state, give each state an equal say based on population.

That's pretty much how the Electoral College works now.
Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census).
The political parties (or independent candidates) in each State submit to the State's chief election official a list of individuals pledged to their candidate for president and equal in number to the State's electoral vote.

Whichever party slate wins the most popular votes in the State becomes that State's Electors-so that, in effect, whichever presidential ticket gets the most popular votes in a State wins all the Electors of that State.

On the Monday following the second Wednesday of December (as established in federal law) each State's Electors meet in their respective State capitals and cast their electoral votes-one for president and one for vice president.

Not a bad system as it avoids the problem of having fifty different candidates and no one candidate ever getting a majority.

Yes, it's a 'winner-take-all' system but that only becomes a point of contention in very close elections and that only happens about twice per century, if that.

You still have the option of writing in the name of someone - including yourself - on the Presidential ballot and we have 'fringe' parties that run presidential candidates every election so on one is really denied a voice.

Obviously, the U.S. runs on a two-party system - which is how the Founders planned it. You always have the best shot at being heard by joining a party, becoming active and working within that party to advance your political goals and promote the candidate of your choice.

nice to meet cha.

Nice to meet you, too.

[Crazy Horse GT]

Mr. 5.0:

I agree the poor child isn't given a choice, it's not their fault - they didn't ask to be here, that is the adult's choice.

It is sad, murdered before they ever had a chance.
I just don't see killing someone who works there as a just cause, but you're right, taking a baby's life is not right.

I guess i just don't understand today's society & the way of thinking that has overcome our country.
I guess I'm of the old day's way of thinking; I was taught to say 'yes sir' & 'yes ma'am' to people older than me.
I just think everything is going crazy right now, there is no respect for anything right anymore.

I guess that's my point; Yes, I am a conservitive Republican.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by crazy horse gt

I guess that's my point; Yes, I am a conservative Republican.

Marty:

Welcome to the 'club' and thanks for your input, guy; I appreciate it.

[PKRWUD]

Jim-

I am so proud of these members for allowing such a potentially flame-ridden thread to actually be so civil! It's amazing what a difference a few years makes!

To briefly touch on the abortion debate, a friend of mine and I had a knock-down, drag-out 10 minute arguement about it the other day, and I was right; abortion is spelled with t-i-o-n.

I don't agree with the killing of babies, and I think that a woman who repeatedly uses abortion as a form of birth control should have her tubes cut. That being said, I don't think abortion should be illegal. It's a heavy topic, and I really don't want to get deeply into it, because I don't feel like either answer is right. I will say that I would be much quicker to agree with your argument if the world population wasn't exploding the way it is. Still though, that's no justification, on it's own.

As far as the drug issue, yes, it is quite complicated. There have been several who have come up with workable methods of legalization, but ever since Reefer Madness, the propaganda against "illegal" drugs has left unshakable visions in most peoples minds. I know that both extremes exist when it comes to users. I think you would be really surprised how many "users" never reach either one. I know several people who choose to get high occasionally, and lead perfect, "normal" lives. People who are well respected, and who hold high level, responsible jobs. It's been my experience that the percentage of people who I've met that drink, and have become alcoholics, is about the same as the percentage of those I've met that get high, and have become drug addicts. Maybe a little higher for alcoholics. Regardless, the laws need to change. While Jane Doe is filling her prescription for one of thousands of legal, mind altering, addictive drugs, her son gets arrested for buying a dime bag of pot. While she will go through withdrawls when she finally has to "kick" her habit, her son won't.

As I'm sure I've mentioned to you in the past, Jim, I have a personal reason why this is so disturbing to me. I can't vote because I am a convicted felon. My felony wasn't bank robbery, or rape, or murder. My felony conviction was for cultivation. I had 3 pot plants growing inside my condo. I wasn't a "dealer", and had never been accused of selling pot. I wasn't a trafficer, and had never been accused of transporting pot across state lines. In fact, I had never been accused of doing anything more than growing 3 plants inside my condo, for my personal use. Because someone else that I didn't really know knew I had 3 plants, he lied to officers when he was busted for something totally unrelated, and told them I was a "major operation" in order to get his own sentence reduced. Local law enforcement had me under surveillance for several weeks. They even spent the money to hire a thermal sensing helicopter to do night time fly-overs over my condo, reading the temp of the air leaving my attic vents, and comparing it to my neighbors. They served a search warrant at the local power company so that they could access my utillity bills, and my neighbors, for the past year. The utillity bills and the word of their informant was all they had to go on. All of their other attempts at gaining incriminating evidence failed. Still, it was enough. So, nearly ten years ago, 14 officers, wearing bullet-proof vests, and armed with fully automatic assault rifles, kicked in my front door, and spent 4 hours turning my place inside out. They were extremely disappointed to only find 3 plants, but wrote in their reports that I probably had gotten word of their raid, and had cleared out the rest. My attorney noted that their own surveillance didn't report any unusual activities, such as that, but it didn't matter. The bottom line was that they had spent a small fortune trying bust me, and I turned out to be nothing. They did what they could, to "make an example" of me, and I ended up serving a year in jail, and 5 years of formal, felony probation. Although that is behind me now, I am still a convicted felon. That means I still can not legally own or posses a firearm, and I can't vote. All because I had 3 pot plants in my home. I have been "clean" since then, and currently have no desire at all to get high, but I firmly believe the laws that got me here are wrong. Very wrong. My "crime" was a truly victimless crime, yet my punishment was harsher than punishments I've seen given to those who's crimes had victims. A few years after my conviction, California voters passed a proposition that made possession with a doctors prescription legal. The federal govt. has overrulled that law, but nonetheless, sentences for "crimes" such as mine have been reduced to little more than a ticket.

So yes, I do have a personal interest in the concept of decriminalizing drugs, and have done alot of research on the subject. I just find it amazing that some of the same people who feel that pot is so dangerous are crusing along just fine, as long as their Prozac prescription is filled. I wish there was a way to reach more people with the truth rather than the hype.

Take care,
-Chris

[Mr 5 0]

Chris:

Interesting points and your personal experience obviously will have a bearing on your POV regarding drug laws, as it would mine had I suffered the same consequences for cultivating three plants.

Chris, I readily conceded the obvious; The so-called 'War on Drugs' isn't working and that drug laws are often misused while prescription drugs are a big problem with the general population.

I cannot as readily concede that legalizing drugs is a solution, although decriminalizing some drugs might be feasible.
It's a tough problem because no good comes from ingesting mind-altering substances, be it beer, whiskey, pot, crack or glue fumes. These are potentially dangerous substances and must be handled with some caution, as witnessed by the drunk drivers who kill others every year or the crimes that crack addicts commit to get the cash for the drug they must have.

There are some things everyone believes about themselves; that they have a good sense of humor, that they are better-than-average drivers and that they can easily handle their drug of choice.

The fact that none of these are true makes my point.
For society to open the floodgates of drug use by making them legal and obtainable with no social stigmna attached is inviting bad consequences that won't be realized until it's way too late to change things.

I can go along with the lessening of criminal charges against marijuana, as has been done in various jurisdictions and I know that your state, California, has made medical use of the drug legal, but that action was overthrown by the feds and is now in hot dispute.
I cannot understand why the active ingredient the plant contains cannot be distilled into a pill, instead of setting a leaf on fire and inhaling the smoke, which seems like the hard way to obtain whatever medical benefit cannabis supplies but as I'm not a doctor, I'll let that one slide and agree that if smoking marijuana is shown to have medical benefits - as it has - than it should be legalized for that purpose.

I'm not against people using drugs in a sane, responsible manner, as millions do with alcohol, but while you mention the many people who safely enjoy recreational drug us and lead normal, productive lives (and I accept that as true) I must again mention that drugs such as marijuana can be gateway drugs for some; especially the young and those with addictive personalities and the use of these drugs can wreck havoc on families as well as take the lives of people who might not ever had tried them had they not be legal and readily available. Alcohol users generally take a few years to become truly addictive but drugs like cocaine or heroin can produce an addict in no time at all and getting off hard drugs is a lot harder than getting addicted, as we all know. These and other social ramifications make me very wary of shrugging my shoulders and saying 'Whatever' when it comes to legalizing drugs.
I've seen the damage they do to otherwise decent and productive people and they are not something to play with and treat lightly, as too many do and a lot more would if they were legal, readily available and with no social stigma.

As for the 'Reefer Madness' mentality, that's an old canard thrown out by NORML and other drug legalization groups and I'm surprised you brought it into the discussion. I doubt some 65-year-old campy anti-marijuana movie short is what's motivativng anti-drug sentiment these days, Chris.
Instead, I believe it's the trail of wrecked lives and crime drug use has left behind and the parents of children who don't wish to see their loved ones dead at 20 or turned into a human wreck or end up in prison due to drugs.
I can understand that. I'm sure you can too and while I know you had a life-changing experience due to minor drug use - and you were legally abused, no doubt - I still find that any sort of real across-the-board legaization of drugs to be a bad idea.


On abortion; I cannot and will not concede that legalized killing of living babies in the mother's womb is O.K. It isn't and no Supreme Court, politician or doctor will convince me otherwise. It's murder and all the comfortable rationalizations and justifications advocates put forth don't change that reality for me.

What I would like to see is Roe v Wade overthrown and the issue put before each state's voters to decide. Some states will vote for abortion to be legal and some won't but that will be the will of the people, not the will of nine men. This is how it was until 1973. Abortion law - pro or con - was decided by the individual states (10th amendment in action), enacted by legistators who were elected by the citizens of that state. Representative democracy in action, all nullified by one probably unconstitutional Supreme Court decision.

Don't get me started on that!


I agree that the thread has maintained a rather calm dignity while dealing with weighty issues like abortion and drug legalization. I'm pleased with that and yes, I think it does shows maturity on the part of our members who participated.

These issues can be 'safely' discussed if folks are rational, don't resort to character attacks and/or using slogans instead of engaging in actual thought before posting, as all have who've added to the thread.

I'm hoping that the discussion was enlightening for some of the folks who viewed but didn't choose to add to the thread and although I believe we've exhausted most of our personal arguments on the subjects at hand, I'm always willing to consider opinions and talk about them as time permits.

Thanks again for your meaningful contributions to these important subjects.

[302 LX Eric]

College classrooms have often become indoctrination centers for leftist political revisionism, turning out young minds full of mush for the most part, devoid of any real historical perspective and believing that America is somehow racist, evil and the cause of most of the worlds problems. Tragic.

Great observation, Mr. 5 0. I had the unfortunate experience to be in some leftist writing course (that's not how it was described in the class catalog ) during my time at The Ohio State University. While my overall experience at OSU was great, it always bothered me that this one professor would not allow (my opinion, of course) any rational, supportable argument for another persepctive (i.e. conservative). I think the prof used the classroom as her own little cult teaching studio. It made me sick.

I think we may have too many educated idiots out there - scary.

Anyways, just wanted to comment on your keen observation.

E

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0
What I would like to see is Roe v Wade overthrown and the issue put before each state's voters to decide. Some states will vote for abortion to be legal and some won't but that will be the will of the people, not the will of nine men. This is how it was until 1973. Abortion law - pro or con - was decided by the individual states (10th amendment in action), enacted by legistators who were elected by the citizens of that state. Representative democracy in action, all nullified by one probably unconstitutional Supreme Court decision.

That's how I feel about drug laws. You would be amazed by the history of how and when pot became illegal. Completely criminal. My reference to Reefer Madness wasn't to say that most people believe such propaganda, but there are some who do. Pot was very acceptable until Nancy Reagan opted for Just Say No as her crusade. By the end of the 1980's, there were mandatory minimum laws in effect that made the sentences for minor drug offenses harsher than those for rape.

I agree that one more mind altering substance is not a good thing, but new ones are introduced, legally, all the time. Many are currently available, and are legal, with no restictions at all, including caffene, and with minor restrictions, including tobacco and alcohol.

Marijuana is non-toxic. There hasn't been a single reported death due to an overdose of pot, ever. Caffene kills between 1000 and 10,000 in this country every year. I won't dig out the numbers, but they go on and on. I just don't understand why pot has such a bad rap. I understand your gateway drug philosophy, but I feel alcohol is much more of a gateway drug than pot is. Most people relax when they're high. Most people that I've met, anyway, become more adventurous and daring when drinking. It's like a bottle of courage. A person is more apt to try anything when drinking as opposed to when high. Again, that's been my experience.

The last subject I disagree with you about is whether or not being legal would increase usage. Would you get high if it became legal? Do you know very many people who would? I don't believe there are very many people who would actually decide that they wanted to get stoned just because it was no longer a crime. Everyone I have ever met that wanted to get high, got high. It's easier for high school kids to buy pot than beer. I don't believe that legalization/decriminalization would really make an honest, measurable difference in the amount of users. I know that alot of the kids I grew up with were drawn to it in part because of it's "outlaw" image. Take that away, and you remove some of the appeal. In other countries that have decriminalized drug use, the number of users and the number of crimes that were "drug related" both went down.

Just a little more food for thought.

Take care,
-Chris

[KG88GT]

GOP. dyed in the wool, GOP


KG88GT

[Mr 5 0]

Chris:

Your defense of marijuana as a benign substance is somewhat debatable, especially when compared to caffeine (which is toxic only in massive amounts or when mixed with other substances/drugs) but lets's face it; everything is toxic in large enough doses or when ingested with some other drug. Playing 'my drug is safer than your drug' loses the point, which is that mind-altering substances are not good for us and need some sort of control, just as we have speed limits on our highways and we license bars and liquor stores, etc.

Yes, I do believe that fully legalized marijuana could be a gateway drug, as it's been in the past. We can trade personal observations back and forth - and I have mine; teenaged friends who started with 'just doing a little pot on weekends' and ended up hopelessly addicted to crack two years later, as well as some friends who lived on pot but are now married, parents and productive citizens who never touch drugs. Anecdotes are interesting but not conclusive.

Beer is legal, sometimes leads to stronger stuff, and eventually alcoholism for some. Although the fact that drugs are illegal may be an attraction (the 'forbidden fruit' sydrome) the claim that making them legal and easily accessible by government fiat will deter anyone is not credible and I firmly believe it would lead to greater use.

All these arguments and claims would be rendered moot if we went back to a constitutional government and permitted the states to vote on the legalization of drugs or even just marijuana with no interference from the federal government (that pesky Tenth Amendment again). By the way, although marijuana may have been 'more acceptable' in the '60's and '70's, I think you give Nancy Reagan way too much credit for making it a felony in some cases. Those laws were proposed by Congressmen and Senators who ursurped the states rights to make their own laws regarding drug use and layered on federal statutes that often override the state laws. State politicians were reacting to the spread of drugs and made the laws tougher to look like they were 'doing something' about drugs and by linkage, crime. Typical political posturing that often makes for bad law.

Frankly, if the vast majority of citizens really, truly wanted easy, legal access to marijuana I believe we would have it. NORML and a host of other pro-drug legalization groups spend millions and never stop promoting this cause and yet we still don't see a groundswell of public opinion that demands legal drugs. It isn't there because many people simply don't see the need for more legal drugs. Parents - especially - are generally scared to death of little Susie or Johnny 'getting into' drug use and wrecking their lives. Ask a parent if we need easy access to drugs. Ask a drug treatment director. Ask a cop who patrols around the crack houses every night and see's the human misery drugs bring. Yeah, gimme more of that. Sorry for the sarcasm but the pro-drug arguments pale when you see the devestation they can cause, as does alcohol and prescription drugs, granted, but why make access even easier? I just cannot accept the argument when balanced with the sometimes tragic results.

That said, as you suggest, I'm quite willing to see the marijuana legalization issue go to a public referendum on a state-by-state basis. Democracy in action. I love it!
I know a lot of states would say 'no' but some, like California would probably say 'yes'. Works for me. At least it's a decision made by citizens, not judges or some special-interest group buying votes from Congressmen with campaign contributions. I accept the fact that everyone does not agree on this issue (like us) but I respect democracy enough that I'm willing to see a law that I may possibly disapprove of put into effect when the majority of voters agree to it. That's democracy. We may disagree, but I respect our mutual right and duty to vote our conscience on sensitive issues. I just wish we each had that right on both abortion and drug legalization. We should.

[PKRWUD]

Jim-

Have I told you recently what a great guy I think you are? It occurred to me this afternoon, while I was reviewing some ALLDATA flowcharts, that throughout this thread, you were being extremely cordial, and were in fact taking what I was saying into consideration. Repeatedly. I think we know each other pretty well, and I can't say that you would have lent as much respect to just anyone. Especially regarding such a subject (I did pretty much beat that horse to death, didn't I). I appreciate that, Jim. It brings back memories of a few years ago, and a certain Lick Bush thread . You're a good Man. You and I are alot more alike politically than you may realize. Thanks for being patient and opinionated.

Take care,
-Chris

P.S. You're right, Nancy didn't do it all by herself, but she definately got the ball rolling.

[Mr 5 0]

Chris:

Thanks for the compliments. Of course civil discussion takes two people who are willing to listen (read) and post a cognitive response instead of name-calling, character assassination and slogans they picked up somewhere. That's not a discussion - that's a pointless flame war - and goes nowhere. I hate that.

You've posted intelligently and with valid points of contention giving us the opportunity to bring out the various arguments - pro and con - on two sensitive and important issues. I appreciate that and return the thanks for your thoughtful participation on the thread, as you do on the other threads you participate in.

As the Messageboard Administrator I feel that I have a duty to our members to set the tone for the boards as well as to try and generate some useful discussions; whether that's in Tech or here, on the 'open' Blue Oval Lounge forum. I value all of our members and appreciate the contributions they make.

I also noted that in the week this thread has been up, it's had over 350 views - 50 per day. Not bad, and exactly what I seek on these non-auto/political-social issue threads; some interesting discussion and some food for thought that people can read, maybe learn something from and enjoy the debate.